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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The power is assumed but we don't know that the engine will be built in Japan like the CX-9's

    I saw a preliminary report that showed the output of 270hp, and 268tq with fuel economy being 21/27. Also, Mazda said in their statement that the "engine is sourced directly from the CX-9". I also read that Mazda will be building it themselves. The Ohio engine plant is a Ford plant, not a Mazda plant.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I was relaying what I had read in the last couple of days over on the Mazda6 forum. Looks like you are in disagreement with some of your fellow Mazda associates. When I walk around Mazda dealers they have very, very few sticks and they are usually I4s. It would seem if they were such great sellers there would be more. However, maybe they sell as fast as they come in. If that was the case I would think they would making a ton of them. It may vary a little by area of the country as well.
  • gearhead8gearhead8 Member Posts: 12
    You can easily spend $27000 on a V6 Accord, but a 4 cylinder LX can be had for around $22000 (not including sales tax).
    The 4 cylinder models out sell the V6 by a factor of 5 to 1.
    Many true sports car drivers don't want the increased weight of a V6, which adversely affects handling. Now with gasoline selling for nearly $4 per gallon, the 4 cylinder becomes even more attractive.
    I am going back to a manual transmission for my next sedan. My current Subaru Legacy with the 4EAT auto trans is a dog. By contrast, the 5 speed Legacy I had before it, felt zippy and got 3 more MPG.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I realize you can buy Accords for less. My point was that many Accord buyers are spending close to $30k and they are not "settling for a low cost mediocre midsize car" or something to that extent. I'm not sure you're correct on the I4/V6 ratio as I have read that used to be the case but that they can't keep up with demand for the new V6 and the ratio is more like 2 to 1. But that was something like thru February. Now with the dramatic shoot up in gas prices, the ratio may well be 4 or 5 to 1 in the near future.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    When I wanted another manual transmission minivan in 1997, I could not find one. Does that mean that the manufacturers were making a mistake by choosing to not build them?

    Eh, yeah, I do think they were making a mistake by not building one.

    Even if it could not be manufactured and sold profitably, due to the very limited number of buyers?

    The Mazda6 is sporty as were my Contours, but to me "sports sedan" overstates it. Sporty to me relates most to handling.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I'm sure Toyota stockholders wouldn't agree with you.

    No, I am sure they wouldn't. But now that bland transport pod has been covered in the marketplace, how are you going to differentiate your offering from the others? If bland transportation pod will work, why would I buy a Mazda or VW?

    As far as people buying midsizers because they're cheap, I read on the Honda Accord forum all the time where people are spending $27-28000 on new Accords. That isn't exactly cheap in my mind.

    I certainly concur and wouldn't consider that cheap at all (and at ~20k for an Accord, I wouldn't consider it at all).

    If Mazda was selling tons of the V6 "6" with stick I'm sure they would (or will as we aren't totally sure they won't) continue to offer it.

    Ford has been limiting a lot of their offerings as they pair down their product line to save some economy of scale. I am not holding my breath for them to do anything that could be considered "fun" for some time yet. They still need to figure out DX/LX/EX and its okay to say if you want the auto-dim mirror you have to get a compass too.

    As far as BMW offering a real sports sedan and what the enthusiust want, try their new BMW 1 which is now thier entry vehicle and which when totally optioned out can MSRP for about $50k. Just saw a review on it in the Chicago Tribune and was shocked at the price.

    BMW was just an example, Chrysler was another example a few years ago. But your point about BMW being obnoxiously expensive for the 1-series (which is partially because they loaded it up in a way few would, and they dollar isn't doing so hot against the Euro right now...) is countered by the fact that people pay that, there is little haggling, and little money on the hood.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    By contrast, the 5 speed Legacy I had before it, felt zippy and got 3 more MPG.

    We love our Legacy wagon 5spd. I think with the boxer motor and the tuning, you have to drive it a bit in anger to get the thing going, but driven gently it gets great mileage.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Eh, yeah, I do think they were making a mistake by not building one.


    Even if it could not be manufactured and sold profitably, due to the very limited number of buyers?

    That is my point, they need to find profitability in low volume high mix vehicles. The economy of scale thing only helps so much. Look at the '07 Taurus (which you can still buy new for ~10k). Very high volume, very low mix (really cheap to make) and you don't make a cent on them because you dump them to fleet sales or are still trying to dispose of them 2 years later.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I don't think there is anything particularly un-sporty about even the base Mazda6, and I think sportiness isn't always about power (the E36 3-series is considered sporty and power-wise it was about the same as my Contour).

    The E36 went away in 1998 with the introduction of the E46. If the Mazda 6 is a sports sedan, what does that make the M5? The Mazda is a sporty car along with the rest of them. The Contour and the E36 3 series in the same sentence. Yeah they have a lot in common, in the same way a GT-R and Pinto have a lot in common.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Well, Mazda does not make nearly as many manuals as automatics. That could be one reason, however, that does not mean that they are not in demand. Remember, Mazda has a very youthful buyer and youth tend to prefer manual transmissions.

    In my neck of the woods, I see a lot of interest in the manual trannys.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    youth tend to prefer manual transmissions.

    Tell that to Scion. Alas, I have found that youth then to prefer MP3 players, but I hope you are right.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford is not Mazda and while they share a lot of engineering and some parts/platforms/plants, Mazda still makes their own product decisions.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Tell that to Scion

    Scion is Toyota's attempt to attract the young buyer, since the average age buyer of Toyota is 55. The TC is the only Scion that really sells.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Scion is Toyota's attempt to attract the young buyer, since the average age buyer of Toyota is 55. The TC is the only Scion that really sells.

    I am not so sure about that, but my point was even with those youth oriented underpowered boxes, manual transmissions are relatively hard to come by.

    I have no idea why the tC sells. For the bloated Carmy powered understeering obese vehicle that it is, I just can't help but think for the enthusiast there are better options available. I think the Focus cut into their sales, since both the Scions and the Focii are glorified MP3 players on wheels.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Also, Mazda said in their statement that the "engine is sourced directly from the CX-9".

    That's correct, but that doesn't mean it's built in Japan. It could be buile in Yemen for all we know.

    I also read that Mazda will be building it themselves. The Ohio engine plant is a Ford plant, not a Mazda plant.

    Link? Are you sure it didn't say developed by Mazda?

    I'm not saying it won't be built in Japan. But it makes financial sense for them to build it here I would think. Either way, both the Japan and Ohio plants churn out high quality engines so I don't see it being an issue. Building an engine that is exclusive to the NA market for a car exclusive to the NA market and built in NA does seem like an issue. But maybe the do this all the time and I'm just mis-understanding the logisitcs of overseas shipping and all that goes with it. :shades:
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Well, Mazda does not make nearly as many manuals as automatics

    If the demand is there can you tell me why Mazda ignores it. Are they that out of touch with their dealers?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The Xa and Xb sales numbers are waaaaay down, and Scion found out that older people have been buying them.

    The Tc attracted the high school/college crowd because it is a "sporty coupe", not because of driving dynamics, or enthusiast attraction. Maybe that is why you don't see many manuals. Trust me, Mazdas are desired in manuals. The RX-8, MX-5, Mazda3 and Mazda6 all have extremely high manual tranny sales figures.

    Scion is Toyota's attempt to attract the youthful buyer, not the enthusiast. Also, Toyotas plan is to upgrade their Scion customers to Toyotas and then their Toyota customers into Lexus. Mazda's goal is to attract the enthusiast and youthful at heart, that is what the "zoom-zoom" philosophy is all about.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The RX-8, MX-5, Mazda3 and Mazda6 all have extremely high manual tranny sales figures.

    Why do you think Mazda is not going to offer a manual in the V6 then? This does not seem to compute!
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    If the demand is there can you tell me why Mazda ignores it. Are they that out of touch with their dealers?


    Currently, they don't. Mazda offers plenty of manuals. Obviously, there is higher demand for autos, however, as a brand, Mazdas are more desired in manuals then most other brands, because of the sport oriented design.

    Why the 09 Mazda6 V6 is not offered in a manual is beyond me. Until Mazda answers that question, all we can do is speculate.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    There is a pretty decent review of the 09 Sonata over on Autoblog.com with a lot of good pics.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Mazda 3.7L is built in Japan. Ford doesn't have the capacity to build enough 3.5/3.7s for themselves right now, much less for Ford and Mazda.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Mazda's goal is to attract the enthusiast and youthful at heart, that is what the "zoom-zoom" philosophy is all about.

    Maybe that is why I have no interest in a Mazda, the "zoom-zoom" philosophy is a turn off. Nissans "shift" philosophy is the same turn off, and I've owned 3 in the past.

    In addition, I just don't see either Mazda or Nissan being particular better at the task of being a generally all-around competent mid-size family type sedan than my favorite.

    I can better relate to a "car that sells itself".
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Fortunately I don't need to drive the automaker's philosophy, just the car, so I tend to ignore their marketing mumbo-jumbo and just evaluate how the car fits my needs. If I like the car, the slogan could be anything and it wouldn't matter. Examples of lame slogans that didn't stop me from buying a car from the manufacturer in the past:

    "Oh what a feeling!" (Uh, exactly what kind of feeling are you talking about?)
    "See how much car your money will buy!" (Actually it was a very small car and the most expensive in its class at the time, so...)
    "We are driven!" (What, driven to make profits?)
    "Zoom zoom!" (In a minivan. Right.)
    "Driving is believing!" (Actually this one turned out to be pretty accurate, but it's not clear just what it is you will be believing--a hidden invitation to cult worship perhaps?)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Don't forget "An American Revolution" (Which I guess means one of those revolutions that requires more fuel than other, similar sized revolutions from other countries).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, that's a good one, as I was thinking the car's design might be outdated, since it came from the 1770s. I didn't mention many others I've ignored over time, like "Quality is Job One," which I kept in mind as I took my Mercury Mystake into the dealer about 7 times in the first 6 months for recalls and other problems. Maybe my favorite is "Kinda Fonda Honda", which left me wondering, Henry, Peter, or Jane?
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    "The Power of Dreams" Ok, maybe not the wildest dreams, but they do Power just about anything you can Dream of driving/piloting.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The Ultimate Driving Machine calls to at least take one test drive of the product. :shades Either advertising has an effect on sales or it doesn't. In my case, the advertising is a turn off. In your case it doesn't matter.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Don't forget "An American Revolution" (Which I guess means one of those revolutions that requires more fuel than other, similar sized revolutions from other countries).

    Also, quite a large portion of that revolution just happens to be happening in other countries...Look at the North American (includes Mexico and Canada) content on the vehicle's window sticker...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So you would let an advertising slogan affect whether you take a car for a test drive or not? I would have passed up some really good cars in the past 30+ years had I done that.

    IMO "Driving is Believing" is much more an enticement, and invitation, to test-drive a car than "The Ultimate Driving Machine." But I'll bet that first slogan didn't get you into any Hyundai dealership to drive a Sonata, did it? ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Advertising doesn't mean much to me. I figure the more a company spends on advertising, the more they have to make on each car they sell. Advertising that costs less, sounds good to me.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Actually I was referring to those revolutions that the tach counts. :shades:
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Different perceptions, different points, different explanations....same conclusions...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    So you would let an advertising slogan affect whether you take a car for a test drive or not?

    Yes. I have found that when I can relate to the advertising the product usually fits also. At least with products in this price range. When commericials annoy me I don't buy the product. Of course I don't have a choice with electric, water and sewer. :shades
  • karsickkarsick Member Posts: 312
    I can relate to advertising that treats me intelligently.

    Example: When, in the 1960's, VW humorously displayed every Beetle model year (almost indistinguishable) side-by-side from 1948 to 1966, they were showing the consumer that if you're willing to give up yearly styling fripperies, you can buy a car that ENGINEERS had updated, not STYLISTS & HUCKSTERS. :P
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Ford doesn't have the capacity to build enough 3.5/3.7s for themselves right now, much less for Ford and Mazda.

    They will later in the year when both Lima plants are at full speed again. One and a half of the two plants were undergoing heavy re-tooling which is a big reason for the low capacity to produce the D35 until recently. Hence my speculation as to the Mazda 3.7L possibly being produced here.

    I also just read the 2009 Lincoln MKS order guide and the Duratec37 for that car is rated at 270 HP and 265 ft-lbs of torque. Sound familiar? Might it make financial sense to build that motor for 2 cars rather than one low volume car?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Maybe that is why I have no interest in a Mazda, the "zoom-zoom" philosophy is a turn off. Nissans "shift" philosophy is the same turn off, and I've owned 3 in the past.

    So, you would not buy a Mazda because it is sporty? If that's your cup of tea, that's fine. "zoom-zoom" expresses how Mazda build cars. Ultimately, it is a combination of marketing and brand definition. "shift" by Nissan is more along the line of marketing only.

    Not buying a car due to a manufacturers marketing theme is just silly. Not buying a car because you don't like it actually holds weight. If I said I would not buy a Honda because Kevin Spacy is the voice is all of there commercials, and I am not a fan of him, would be just dumb, right?

    Bottom line, buy the car you like, and don't pass judgment on the car because of how it is marketed.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Might it make financial sense to build that motor for 2 cars rather than one low volume car ?

    Well, all of Mazdas trannys come from Japan. Maybe they would send the v6 engine attached w/ the tranny to save shipping costs? In reality, we will have to wait and see.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    So, you would not buy a Mazda because it is sporty

    I wouldn't buy a Mazda because the adverts don't appeal to me and I don't find the attributes of the car appealing either.

    If I said I would not buy a Honda because Kevin Spacy is the voice is all of there commercials, and I am not a fan of him, would be just dumb, right?

    If you are spending $25 large or so on a car, who am I to judge your rational. This is your hard earned money, not mine. If you asked my opinion I might give it to you, but judge you on it. Never!
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Well, all of Mazdas trannys come from Japan. Maybe they would send the v6 engine attached w/ the tranny to save shipping costs? In reality, we will have to wait and see.

    Good point. That would make more sense. But the trannies they use aren't built by Mazda so bolting them together in Japan and shipping them here could end up costing even more because you would then be shipping one of the parts twice to get it here.

    I guess we will have to wait and see. Like I said, I don't really care where the engine is built because both the Ohio and Japan Duratec plants are very good now. I'm more curious about what else FMC is going to drop the D37 into because I seriously doubt the Lima plant is going to produce a handful of them for the MKS only. They have been very good about keeping costs at bay lately and doing that would be a step backwards IMO. Making the D37 for 2 cars makes a load of sense however.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    PLEASE don't let my wife know that Kevin Spacey is the spokesman for Honda; she'll insist we buy one no matter what! :)
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    If you asked my opinion I might give it to you, but judge you on it. Never!

    I will never judge, however, I am inclined to disagree, which is fair game. I think we can agree on that.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    There are pictures on the internet. The styling looks similar to the previous pics shown that were thought to be only for Japan.

    The styling is one of the best features of the car.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    There are pictures on the internet.

    Could you elaborate on this "internet" thing please?

    Sorry, couldn't resist. :shades:

    Give me AWD and a V6 with a 5 or 6-speed MTX and I would consider trading my Mustang in for one.

    In case anyone has been living in a black hole...
    image
    image
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The front-end looks like an Accord with a Mazda emblem, the back looks like an LS460. It's clearly a step up in the styline dept IMO.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    kd-

    You really think the front end looks like an Accord? I don't see it. I do see a little Infiniti G in the front. Overall, still looks like a Mazda to me. The rear does scream Lexus a bit. I will agree there.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Word is the V6 will NOT offer a manual - at least not in the regular version. Have not heard if they plan to offer a speed version yet.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    There will be no mtx in the V6, for 2009 anyway. I have a funny feeling it will have one in 2010.

    As for a Mazdaspeed version, don't count on it. I read from a press release from Mazda's main web site in Japan, and there are no plans for another Mazdaspeed6. With the 09 Mazda6 having the most powerful V6 in its class (270hp+ according to Mazda announced at the dealer meetings), a Mazdaspeed version will have to have well over 300hp to really make people buy one over a V6.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Word is the V6 will NOT offer a manual - at least not in the regular version.

    Yeah, I think I mentioned that before. Then someone pointed out that the Mazda press release did not state that the MTX would not be an option either. It really didn't even say that the manu-shift ATX was the ONLY tranny for the V6. Just that it would be paired with the V6.

    If I were a betting man I'd say there is no MTX for 2009 with the V6 base on the press release and what others say. But I'm holding out hope. If they don't offer it then I'll just keep my Mustang and still be extremely happy with it.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    still the same old rough and ready Ford DT though whether it be 3.0 or 3.5 or a 'Lincoln' 3.7. If Mazda builds the 3.7 in Japan it may bespeak of better assembly quality but not any real design change in the engine itself - something it still needs BADLY. I'm not sure that even Ford knows what it is going to do about that engine at this point. They simply don't have the freedom (or wherewithall) to put the Duratechs out of its misery.
    You can go all the way back to later 80s and the Probes/MX6s - the V6s were all Ford 'Vulcan' engines while the (preferred) 4 bangers were Mazda. Not too many folks know that the Probe was originally intended to replace the Mustang or that the MX6 was a simple rebadge of the Probe which then in turn begat the 626 and the 6 - and the (unfortunately) close relationship that has existed there ever since.Those that believe that anything with more than 4 cylinders (or rotors) are 'Mazda' engines are deluding themselves IMO. This was true 20 years ago and it is still true today
    Kind of ironic that Ford should take a good 6 platform then and 'stretch' it into a Fusion. Ford may indeed have 'saved' a financially struggling Mazda many years ago but now it appears the roles should be reversed.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I also see zero reemblence to the Accord. The new 6 is much sleeker, especially in front. The rear does bear a faint resemblence to a Lexus, but no more so than most Lexii look like a Sonata in the rear. Overall a very nice update to the 6, IMO.

    And for those who like the current 6... a local dealer is offering $5000 off MSRP on any 6. And this is April. Wait 'til it's closeout time on the 2008 Mazda6, there'll be really big deals to be had!
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