Your one world government or socialism for the rich has showed it's head and when the UAW workers and other union and non-union workers all lose there jobs to globalism and you have another quarter of the workforce unemployed and people are starving and rioting at your door
I think you are going to find this administration is the MOST global minded EVER. The USA is no longer going to be a manufacturing base. Those jobs will continue to go to 3rd world countries. Those uneducated in this country will be warehoused in places like Detroit, Chicago and New Orleans and brought out when election time rolls around.
The bright side is a kid will not grow up thinking his only option is to be a lug nut installer.
Sadly rocky has not realized what a failure corn ethanol has become. And none of the alternatives can compete with oil even at $150 per barrel as it was last year. Further showing how the UAW is living in the past. Kind of like Rip Van Winkle.
>Again we act as if the UAW and unions are the only special interest in this great American society. The medical field has done more to distort the market and thereby adding cost to every company.
there you go again!
Guess what? Their time will also come. When they start providing sub-standard service for what they charge, the medical professionals will be treated like stray dogs too by the general public.
>This is the single most advantage of moving/relocating overseas. Good point. The expense of health-care is a large one in any organization. But do you really think that is why the car manufacturing jobs moved out overseas? If so, don't worry. there will be unrest and they will come down, just like the D3 & UAW because according to your theory most of the country will go down if the D3 goes down, and there will be no one who can afford them with all the good paying jobs going overseas. Just be patient. It is only a matter of time.
The medical field has done more to distort the market and thereby adding cost to every company.
That comment gives me a thought. If a doctor makes a mistake, I can get an ambulance chasing lawyer to sue him. With a lucky pick of the jury get a multi million dollar settlement. If a UAW guy screws up my vehicle in assembly what chance of even knowing which one did it? The UAW would cover for the culprit and I would be stuck with a POC vehicle that the doors never shut right. I know for a fact that GM would do nothing except lip service.
No it is the unskilled labor. The Delphi UAW fork lift operator making $100k+ per year and filing bankruptcy, that costs the rest of US money. I can train a kindergarten dropout to run a forklift in a couple hours. So what makes that job worth $60k to over $100k per year? In 1962 a Union fork lift operator for Pacific Telephone made just over minimum wage in San Diego. I know because that was my second job at the telephone company. So Rocky can try to BS how much skill it takes to run a forklift. It just is not true and anything over $10 per hour is extortion. That is exactly what the UAW has done to the D3. Extort wages and benefits far beyond the reality of the rest of the USA and the World. Now their house of cards is tumbling to the ground.
>"Your sum total experiences of the cars you owned and the years you owned them in isn't exactly a very scientific methodology and or valid to draw any conclusion whatsoever."
How many cars, how many years, how many models does it take to satisfy you?
I've owned in excessive of 60 automobiles and/or trucks in my lifetime. First purchase was in 1958. So I've been purchasing them for over a half century. The first vehicle was a '39 Ford coupe. So the manufacturing years are a span of 70 years.
I learned at an early age how to work on them and keep them running, because that was a necessity and a way of life. I was there when the "[non-permissible content removed] JUNK" invaded our shores. I was at Nalley Chevrolet in Atlanta having my Chevy "Patched" again under warranty when I saw a new line of cars they were starting to carry. It had a motorcycle engine. Little tiny hatch back. It was a Honda! I told the GM they would live to regret that! "[non-permissible content removed] Junk". Now Nalley has several Honda, Acura, Infinity, and so forth scattered around north Georgia. Some don't carry the Nalley name, but are owned by them. They just opened a new super facility in McDonough Ga. , called "Son's Honda". I was wrong. I remember Corollas blowing head gasket for a couple of the early years, but they fixed the problem. And they fixed the customers.
Probably 40 or more of the 60+ that I have owned have been Detroit Iron. I consider myself an expert on automobile reliability and longevity. That expertise comes from EXPERIENCE! FWIW I have a 78 Chevy Beauville G20 van that I'm determined to to get 200K out of. No matter how much it cost me. So far it has had 2 engine and 3 transmission re builds, and 3 rear end re builds by professionals. Chances are good that I have been buying, driving and repairing vehicles for as long as most folks on these forums have been alive. Experience!
I have no problem when any auto manufacturer has a problem crop up that is out of the ordinary. Honda Oddessy had tranny problems that didn't show up until near or past the warranty, and it wasn't on all transmissions. But they stepped up to the plate and fixed them "FREE" and extended the warranty on the involved year on all those transmission models to 100K miles. Toyota had a sludge problem, but they fixed it. The Toyota Tundra Trucks had some cam shafts break because the supplier was building them out of specs. But they fixed them and dealt with that vendor. . How long did Chevy engines leak oil around the valve covers and rear main seals before they fixed it? The 1955 V8s did, and it continued on past the 78's. How long did the rubber tipped timing gears break before they decided to fix that? For all I know, they still break!
>"Your sum total experiences of the cars you owned and the years you owned them in isn't exactly a very scientific methodology..."
By definition, for something to be proven scientifically, it has to be repeatable.
For me, from the 39 Ford through the 98 Ram, Detroit Iron has repeated it's indifference toward quality. It has repeated it's indifference to satisfying it's customers, and those customers have bitten the bullet and moved to better products. The 40+ D3 I have owned have repeatedly broken. That is scientific enough for me.
No, it's isn't the UAW's fault that engineering sucked. It isn't their fault that they are installing parts that will break. Or is it? Have they ever gone on strike because they knew they were building inferior products?
It is their fault when the door on one car fits perfectly and another exact car has poorly fitted doors and other parts, or missing parts. There is plenty of blame to go around for the failure of the D3. Management, engineering and labor!
There is an old saying: "You can't polish a turd". Recently "Myth Busters" proved that saying to be "BUSTED". They did, compact and polish some dung to a high shinny luster. But that is really nothing new. The D3 have been doing it for years!
But the cost vs disposable income your average person had back then was a lot more in line than today. People didn't live on credit back then at least my family didn't!!!
Funny you should bring that up. I don't remember my Dad ever using a credit card when I was a kid. In fact, I don't recall my Dad getting into deep auto loan debt either. I saw him at the kitchen table counting a thick stack stack of hundreds and fifties to buy a new car for CASH!!! You won't see much of that in today's blue collar families.
I'm a member of my neighborhood's town watch. Watch out for yourself and your neighbors. If something just doesn't look right, report it. One of our intrepid town watch members thwarted an armed robbery of a pharmacy as he observed two shady characters hanging around, one of whom stashed an automatic handgun underneath a car.
One of the scariest things is a significant increase in home invasion robberies. I urge everyone to at least get a home security system. I also urge everybody to purchase a handgun, learn how to use it, and get your C/C permit. It's your 2nd Amendment right! These are interesting times indeed!
"Then I began to understand why the "[non-permissible content removed]" cars were so popular. The Toyota never broke.
Of course they never broke! They usually collapsed into a pile of iron oxide dust and dry-rotted plastic after a winter or two. They never had a chance to break!
Heck the drug trade exploded in Philadelphia around the same time industry left the city. Do you there would be so many kids slingin' rocks on the corner if there were still the great manufacturing jobs at employers like Budd, Baldwin Locomotive, Disston, Philco, or Dodge Steel?
As Nino Brown said in New Jack City, "There are more poor and disenfranchised people than ever and a lot of folks who wanna get real high real fast!"
The bright side is a kid will not grow up thinking his only option is to be a lug nut installer.
Yeah, his only option will be to go tens of thousands of dollars into debt to pursue a college degree that may or may not land him that dream job. If he fails to land any kind of job that pays him a living wage, his options will be retail, fast food, or the large caliber handgun in the nightstand drawer.
One of the scariest things is a significant increase in home invasion robberies. I urge everyone to at least get a home security system. I also urge everybody to purchase a handgun, learn how to use it, and get your C/C permit. It's your 2nd Amendment right! These are interesting times indeed!
OMG! This is the stupidest argument/question I have heard in my whole life. What a dumb question. If a person has a working brain, he would never ask this question.
If you have a Robot, it employees at least 3 persons(skilled & educated) directly, and many more indirectly. I am sure they don't ride a horse to work.
Choose your scenario. Would you have 10 low paid employees or 3 highly paid employees and a Robot?
Fact is simple: If in this country all the jobs that are left are for skilled & educated folks, the folks that do not educate themselves should export themselves to the countries where jobs are open for them. Please....No need to get alarmed by this train of thought.
Many people, including me, exported myself from our country of origin, to this country as it was the one offering decent jobs for the level of skills and education I had. Quite a few of my friends have moved back to their country of origin because the prospects in the US did not fit their dreams or lifestyle.
reverse immigration might be in order.....
As a saying goes: Better to be the Kings of the Deaf & Dumb, than be a servant to the highly intelligent.
Re question of why UAW did not go on strke to protest the inferior cars they were foreced to assemble. How would they know the cars were inferior. Aren't UAW employees blindly loyal and beholden to their company and its cars? Even if there were some rebel employees who were tempted to try a Honda or Toyota, they dared not do same lest the tires be ice-picked or paint keyed. Employees would be the last to know anything about the quality of what they assembled in comparison to the competition.
things might look a great deal different, not to mention inefficient. Your kids would probably make a guaranteed $20 per day in allowance. (Hey, your kids already have "nap rooms." Perfect!) Basically, they're going to get their allowance, regardless of whether they do their chores like perfect angels, practice finger-painting skills on their bedroom walls, set the sofa on fire, or do absolutely nothing. Who needs incentives?"
It isn't easy for me to keep up with all these responses, cutting and pasting and all that...I, too, am just a 3rd grade dropout, but I do loves my cars...heh, heh...:):):)
cooter: her experience was that the vehicle was given to ger by her brother at the one year old mark (the Toyota, not her brother)...so she drove the little truck until we sold it in 1983 or so with about 135,000 miles...considering that we had always seen Big 3 cars fall apart at 50-75K, to us 135K was a miracle...
lemko: "Then I began to understand why the "[non-permissible content removed]" cars were so popular. The Toyota never broke.
Of course they never broke! They usually collapsed into a pile of iron oxide dust and dry-rotted plastic after a winter or two. They never had a chance to break!"...I am so sorry lemko, you are just plain wrong...I certainly understand that not everyone had the same expereience we did with Hondas or Toyotas, and some have had your great experience with Detroit iron, but the fact is that the number have been changing for years...the fact that millions of folks now buy imports, where it was only thousands in years past, means that SOMETHING has caused these folks to desert Detroit, and with good reason...they made junk, pure and simple...when a door does not close, rocky can blame management, I will always blame the incompetent labor force, but the disenchanted buyer simply buys a Honda, probably never to return to Big 3...so, while rocky tries to justify a floor sweeper making $35/hour, the buyers who pay those bills are deserting Big 3 for poor quality, regardless of whose fault it is...
When nobody buys a car because it is ugly, blame management for poor design...but when someone complains that the car was junky, tinny, doors don't shut, dashboard rattles, windows don't close, balme the idiots that cannot assemble a car properly, let alone Lincoln Logs...
rocky: I am totally against the one world gov't, and they won't need lawyers, finally, an actual moment of reasonable perception from you, and I am glad to have been here to witness it...I was dead set against it with Bush, but what you fail to believe or understand is that Obama will move us closer to it in 4 years than anything else you have seen...as least Bush told the UN to pound sand when they wanted to control our guns, Obama and his Communist Attorney General Holder will sign any treaty the liberal commie UN puts in front of them...Obama is no friend to the 2nd Amendment, and he will do NOTHING to stop the riots that will be coming when the urbans get unrestful...we will be on our own, with our guns and bullets...you are trained in security, I assume you have your guns and ammo, as you will need them more under a Democrat than any Repub of the last 100 years...remember, the Democrats blame Society for someone being a criminal, not the individual...wake up while you can...
I sure hope the gunmakers do not use UAW workers, or our guns will fall apart after the first magazine is empty, if they make guns the way they make cars...
sorry, lemko, your experience is ABSOLUTELY not the general experience of Americans, simply because if it was, we probably would not know how to pronounce Honda or Toyota, as they would be flashes in the pan...if any experience was sheer chance and unscientific, it is yours, lemko...but I wish you the best with them, and hope your 88 lasts another 20 years...even if the carmaker doesn't...
"...but when someone complains that the car was junky, tinny, doors don't shut, dashboard rattles, windows don't close, blame the idiots that cannot assemble a car properly, let alone Lincoln Logs... "
Geeze, they all sound like adjectives I'd use to describe the average 1970s Japanese car. My girlfriend's father bought an orange 1974 Datsun in response to the fuel crises of that decade. His regular car was a blue 1966 Ford Galaxie 500 sedan. He told me that driving that Datsun on Philadelphia's Schuylkill Express was a downright scary experience as it couldn't keep up with traffic and the car felt like it was going to shake apart. One day it blew a connecting rod right through the hood of the car. It was about three years old. That 1966 Galaxie? My girlfriend was still driving it in the late 1980s.
My 1988 Buick Park Avenue isn't my only car that has served me well. I still have a 1989 Cadillac Brougham and had a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe that was still running in 1992. I also had a 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue that I sold to my brother 15 years ago and he's still driving it. That can't be just chance. Domestic automakers truly do build excellent vehicles. If it was chance, then I should just quit my job and become a professional gambler because I'd have to be the luckiest guy on earth!
If you want to keep beliveing american cars are reliable and this is reinforced by your personal experience, by all means continue to buy them and I hope they continue to be reliable for you. That said, individual experience means nothing in the field of statistics. Sadly, there is no real debate about reliability of japanese versus american cars (across the population or an adequate sample size) . The data exists, it is not subjective. Styling is subjective as are any number of other qualities - reliability is not one of them.
"Geeze, they all sound like adjectives I'd use to describe the average 1970s Japanese car. My girlfriend's father bought an orange 1974 Datsun in response to the fuel crises of that decade. "
Lemko, I'm trying to follow your analysis of 1960's American cars and 1970's Japanese cars. Can you tell me how many 1970's Japanese cars you actually owned or even drove? Not your stepfather's third cousin's babysitter's first boyfriend's red headed step brother, but you yourself?
Second, are you a blood relative of Rocky?
Third, do you realize that 1970 was almost 40 years ago?
Fourth, have you ever heard the Japanese motto of "Always improve" and the American motto of "Don't fix it if it ain't broke"?
A sharp fall in crude prices allied with lower output to slash the UAE's oil export earnings to around $3 billion (Dh11bn) in January, less than half its monthly average revenues in 2008, according to an official US report.
Despite the decline, the UAE remained one of the biggest oil earners in the 12-nation Organisation of Petroleum Exporting CountriesOrganisation of Petroleum Exporting CountriesOrganization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries OPEC while it was second to Saudi Arabia in 2008, when it netted nearly $89bn.
Just how big is PetroChina? By market capitalization, it is now worth more than the two previous global corporate front-runners, ExxonMobil and General Electric, combined. A unit of the state-owned China National Petroleum Corp., PetroChina is unquestionably China's biggest oil producer. But PetroChina makes only one quarter of the revenue that Exxon rakes in, and it also has slightly less in oil and gas reserves—an important factor investors consider when they weigh an oil company's future prospects. Significantly, though, PetroChina's reserves have been growing at about 5 percent a year in recent years, outpacing those of Exxon and other oil giants.
i recently bought i house with a three car garage and the garage is full of car and motorcycle parts. I have found several V8 engine blocks, valves and carbs. I am not very engine familiar and was wondering if there is a way for me to find out what the blocks or other parts are out of without finding someone who knows more about them. Any info would be appreciated. Thank You
"Geeze, they all sound like adjectives I'd use to describe the average 1970s Japanese car"...
Despite our results with the 75 Toy pickup, I would have to agree with you, generally, on the Japanese cars of the 1970s...
Now, once we get into the 80s, your thoughts are all wet and dead wrong...they learned what they did wrong in the 70s, and our Hondas of the 80s were sheer joy...just as you have your 88, my 88 Legend and Prelude were the two best cars I have ever owned...they were traded in 1998 and 2001 and were the most ergonomic and reliable vehicles I have owned...
Your experience with 88 Big 3 cars is literally unique, and, sadly, is probably shared by very few...so, while you talk about your reliability with your cars, most others have NOT had that experience and have found what they believe is a better product...
The Buick Roadmaster was an ugly boat, and for that I blame management...but when doors don't fit (ask gagrice) and windows fall off track, I blame labor...
IMO, more people will desert an automaker because of poor build quality (or items that can never be fixed) rather than look of the car, and that is why I blame UAW workers for poor quality American products and the rise of the Japanese...
You can see the looks of the car when you buy it, so you know what you are getting right there, but if the size fits your needs, you may buy it and live with it for years (think minivans)...that is where you make your opinion of management...
But you ASSUME that quality is there, and when nothing works right, or rattles in the dash, or the door never quite closes properly, that is something that may take a day/week/month or more to show up...that is where your opinion on the assembled quality of the car is formed, and if it never runs right, that is where your opinion is formed about UAW assembly labor, whether you realize it or not...no, the average buyer (not us) does not think about unionized labor (we might, but they don't), they just realize they bought junk and may never buy that brand again...and, if they have bought GM, and their last clunker was Ford, you can be sure they will seek out Honda and Toyota next...and, if they are like most Honda or Toy buyers, they will NEVER go Big 3 again...that is the legacy of UAW workers...
and having lemko stand in the Buick showroom with his 1988 vehicle fleet will also NOT bring them in...
so, lemko, while you sit here and praise your vehicles, and you should for the way they have lasted, you must come to reality...YOU are the unique one, along with your cars, as the rest of America, or at least a major portion, has not had your luck with Big 3 iron...
bg: KAIZEN...constant, incremental improvement...they (Japanese)are always looking for a way to improve some thing to make it more efficient...it may also make it cheaper thru greater efficiency, but the intent is improvement...
Here it sometimes seems that it isn't "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but more like "Even if it is broke, don't fix it"...which is, IMO, the motto of the UAW, or at least what is left of it, and soon to be even fewer...
I guess what amuses me the most is how the UAW proponents are simply blind to what has hit them in the last 20-30 years...they bellieve that their jobs are gifts from God by Divine Right, they are oblivious to the cars made by Lexus, Infiniti, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Acura, and they wonder how anyone could even consider cars by the aforementioned automakers...they are incapable of seeing the general trend of Big 3 product quality that has been dropping for years (yes, lemko, even you can see outside of your own garage), altho it really is great to see better cars coming from Detroit NOW, but it is like they woke up yesterday and saw their first Honda dealership selling Accords...and all they can do is try and justify why a floor sweeper should be paid $60K a year for a job reserved for the average teenager getting his first job...the UAW proponents have their heads as deep into the sand as the UAW workers, and cannot see the handwriting on the wall...
Yes, I lament the loss of our industrial base, but they priced themselves out of the market...we have lost our base because the workers demanded more pay than the product would support, PLUS the stupid, ignorant work rules that caused the work force to want 4 workers to do the work of one...
I would bet we would still have our steel industry if it was nonunion, simply because we would not need 200,000 steelworkers to do the work of 50,000...but the USW union was no different than the UAW, taking an 8 hour job, splitting it up for 4 people, each doing 2 hours worth of work for 8 hours pay...
We lost our steel industry not because of the pay of one worker, but that 4 workers were paid to do the job of one worker...bring back steel plants without unions, and I would bet the industry would thrive, as long as they had a handle on labor costs and no restrictions on work rules...i.e. run the plant like the japanese would, and I would bet our entire steel industry would be back in 5 years, and imported steel would rust in the yards...but they are too stupid to do it without a union, so we lament the "loss of our industrial base" when we should be lamenting the stupidity of workers who fail to understand the cost of labor...
Can you tell me how many 1970's Japanese cars you actually owned or even drove?
First of all, the Japanese made nothing I'd have been remotely interested in buying in the 1970s. It wasn't until the Lexus LS400 that I'd have even considered a car from Nippon. Japanese cars of the 1970s were so indescribably ugly I'd have to drink the entire Jack Daniels distillery just to endure the shame of being SEEN as a passenger in one, let alone drive one which would require so much heroin and marijuana there is not enough arable land on earth to grow enough poppies or hemp. I guess Toho Studios was designing Toyotas when they weren't busy making Godzilla flicks. However...
Wise is the man who learns from his own experiences.
Happy is the man who learns from the experiences of others.
I am a wise man for my experience with General Motors cars, especially Buick, has taught me domestic automakers are truly capable of building excellent vehicles.
I am also a happy man for observing the misery of others who bought cars from the land of the Rising Sun. I've had friends,relatives, and coworkers fall for hype generated by the opinion of some increasingly irrelevant, Birkenstock-shod, granola-gorging, aging hippie Boomer editor at CR with a strong resemblance to "Comic Book Guy" who disdained domestic iron because his father who represented the Establishment drove a Cadillac.
Japanese cars of the 1970s were bought for one reason - fuel economy. Other than that, there was little to recommend them. As I mentioned before, it certainly wasn't styling. It most definitely wasn't performance. Your average 1970s Japanese car made a 1960 Ford Falcon seem like a Formula One racer.
I've seen the bodies on their Toyotas, Hondas, Datsuns, and Subarus rust with a fierocious vengeance. Heck the Titanic had less rust on it after 90 years under the Atlantic than a Honda after two Northeast winters. I've seen the thin vinyl interior split after two summers and gave off such a noxious odor that the interior should've been declared a Superfund site. I've seen such thin sheet metal on a Honda that a carelessly laid textbook caved in the hood. I've seen the gruesome results of a single car accidents involving a Japanese car and some fixed object that would leave Jeffrey Dahmer forever vomiting. The driver of a domestic car would've walked away from a similar mishap.
More recently, I've seen a failed transmission in a co-worker's wife's Acura TL, a failed clutch in a young guy's new Acura RSX, a trunk that wouldn't open on a late-model Camry. And a water pump that failed in a Camry after a mere 17K miles with a blubbering owner who truly believed that Toyotas don't break.
I'm sure a few UAW workers wear Birkenstocks or other orthopedic sandals after standing on their feet all day.
Operative word being UAW. :shades:
"The UAW's image problem stems from the fact that it has been arguably much better at doing its job than the Big Three management teams have been at theirs. Over the past 60 years, many of the benefits that both blue- and white-collar workers hold dear were either won or expanded by the UAW."
man, there you go again complaining that Japan's government has subsidzed Mitsubishi Motors at some time. So what? The Japanese economy, as I understand it, is in worse shape than America's and has been for years.
Like I told you earlier, when I go to buy a car that I love(leaves all UAW-made rigs out, BTW) I don't figure in the political bickering count in there. If Japan subsidizes each or many of their carmakers, so be it. I am looking for the best car for our money(wife and I, and we are a one-car couple, too, so the vehicle we get is our one vehicle for years, big decision) and, the last time I looked, it was not against the law to buy a Japanese or Korean vehicle. They have to pass our safety and emissions tests, like any other imports or domestics have to.
No, it's not a "save our domestic automaker" type of decision. It's a "let's buy what we want and love and can afford for our situation" type of decision.
Mitsubishi Motors is a subsidiary of a larger Mitsubishi Company. They write off the losses. It is true that there is always the threat of Big Mitsu Bro cutting off support for Little Mitsu Motors Bro and them leaving the U.S. That is not a death sentence for our '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS, rockford.
First of all, I don't think that is going to happen. Mitsu is working hard on their all-electric i-MiEV and other vehicles for the future that should sell well. Remember, Mitsubishi sells well in the UK and other places, the U.S. is not their only market but it is an important market for them, yes.
Without going in to a discussion on Mitsubishi, hasn't this slapping a tariff on imports discussion died in the water time and again. That type of tax actually comes back to slap countries silly eventually, that type of argument. Surely you've read your large import tariff argument get shot down in flames several times in here.
So it's doubtful that the Federal Guv-Mint will opt for that method of madness anytime soon. The D3 and the UAW will just need to consolidate and build better tomorrows for themselves and anyone willing to part with cash for a D3 new vehicle.
At this point I would shun such a move, too much insecurity in a decision like that right now. Eh? And that's if they made anything I would be remotely interested in buying. Here's one: the 2010 Chevy Volt. Too bad the General is going to ask $40,000 for one. :sick: I think they may have engineered a decent idea with the Volt.
Trouble is, it's unproven technology. The ICE motor onboard just to re-charge the electrical motor, after the all-electric motor has given it's driver the first 40 miles on electrical power completely. And a total range of "300 miles" is promised, I've read some estimates of 400 miles. And it will depend on how the EPA deduces the relationship between the electrical motor and the ICE motor and their function whether the Volt will get a 50mpg designation or a 100mpg designation. So there's a few questions to resolve, the one I am wondering about is how is the test-muling going on these Volt pups? Chev would say it's coming along well, I'm sure.
But the $40,000 price tag is prohibitive, rockford. Call up your cronies at GM and have them cut that price by about 40% and they'll get a lot more U.S. buyers of their product. According to the April R&T article on the 2010 Chevy Volt, Chevy is really putting a lot of stock in this car to show that the General can lead the industrial world in automotive technology once again. And reading about the propulsion and other details about the car are fairly impressive. I would be lying to ya if I told ya I was not interested in the Volt. But the problem they're going to have, if they're even in business in 2010, is the $40,000 price for this car. They've got to find a way to cut that price way down or it won't sell in big enough number for them.
The 2010 MItsubishi i-MiEV will cost what, about $24,000? Or close to that, and it will be eligible, as will the 2010 Volt, for at least a portion of the Obama $7,500 "green alternative" car rebate. Which passed and is now in the books as law, BTW. How much of the $7,500 you will get depends on the size of your all-electric or hybrids battery. 16kwh batteries on board net you the full $7,500 and it gets sliced bit by bit the smaller (or should I say less powerful) the battery your car's manufacturer supplies you with.
Oh, bring on the 2010 Pininfarina-Bollore B0. It comes to three U.S. test markets(one of them being L.A.) in 2009, then approximately 10,000 B0's hit American shores starting in September of 2010. P-B makes it clear that these are not "concept" cars on their website they're indeed "production" cars. And the B0's are to cost in the same range as the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, $23,000-$24,000(before the "green rebate"). See what I mean about the Volt being overpriced...just a tad. It is true that the Volt resembles mostly the old-world-order car the most, midsize competitive size to a Camry or a Fulan, no? So, there's a tack on more of a price argument. The new 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid is priced around $27,000 for a comparison. So the Volt would qualify for the $7,500 rebate and be priced at about $32,500 after the green rebate. Getting closer to reality, anyway.
So there's 3 "green" mobiles coming in 2010 that will be in direct competition with each other. The American-built one will cost fully $10,000 more than the Italian-French job and the Japanese all-electric. That's not an impressive selling point outta da gate for the Americans in this "green-mobile" race, rockford. Agreed? Penny for your thoughts(or anyone else interested) in this forward-thinking automotive matter.
Japanese cars of the 1970s were bought for one reason - fuel economy. Other than that, there was little to recommend them. As I mentioned before, it certainly wasn't styling. It most definitely wasn't performance. Your average 1970s Japanese car made a 1960 Ford Falcon seem like a Formula One racer.
I guess the only exception would be the Datsun 240Z. I'd love to have an early 70's Z. Just a timeless style and design. To bad most have rusted away.
The only Japanese vehicles that have impressed me have been mainly Nissan's and Honda's. The 80's Accord and CRX were the first Asian car's I drove and they opened my eyes on how well a 4cyl could run. Most of the domestics I drove in the 80's were 4cyl, the Honda's really stood out. Then the late 80's brought the Maxima with Nissan's vaunted 3.0 v6. The early 90's Sentra SE-R, while boring looking, was an awesome performer, bringing back the economy performance cars. These car's probably wouldn't interest a fullsize GM car fan, but to those of us who bought small to midsize cars, the Honda's and Nissan's really stood out.
WOW!!! You really don't know what you are talking about. UAW workers aren't allowed to just go home early after producing there quota for the day.
More lies you have been told and believed.
Flint Strikes Settled, But Issues Go Unresolved The settlements contain concessions. The controversial "pegged rates," which allow a few hundred workers to stop work early if they meet their quotas, will be preserved, but the quotas are jacked-up 15 percent. This is a significant speed-up that will reduce any extra break time these heavy, dirty jobs might allow.
At the Delphi East plant the union agreed to continue working with the company to increase productivity.
US has protected the D3 since the 50s. Time to open up the market and make it FREE.
Being a PU truck person the Subsidies to the D3 are an issue for me. You continually whine about Japan subsidizing their auto companies. Well the USA has protected the UAW and D3 since the 50s with a 25% tariff on foreign built PU Trucks. The D3 would probably already be history if not for that protectionism. No one is going to pay 25% more even if the truck is superior and gets twice the mileage of the D3 PU truck.
You always say how there is a cover-up of better alternatives. There is a big one for you. People all over the world have PU trucks that get up to 45 MPG. They are not allowed in the USA.
>"One of the scariest things is a significant increase in home invasion robberies. I urge everyone to at least get a home security system. I also urge everybody to purchase a handgun, learn how to use it, and get your C/C permit. It's your 2nd Amendment right! "
Absolutely! Also important to practice alot. We should be as familiar with the operations of our firearms as we are with the operations of our vehicles. In an emergency, we should not have to stop to remember how to use the gun. We should only be concerned as to whether or not to use it.
38 Special +P in a good "Jacked Hollow Point" works just fine. Anything smaller than 38 Special may not be enough.
For an "IN House" or "In Car" gun, a revolver is hard to beat. If a revolver doesn't fire for some reason, just pull the trigger again, and the cylinder will rotate to the next cartridge. A full size all steel gun is best, because the weight soaks up a lot of the felt recoil. We are more likely to practice with a gun that doesn't punish us when we practice.
Semi automatics in 9mm,40 S&W, and 45ACP work even better but are generally fired from simi-automatic pistols and are harder to master. They are fine when we are fully awake and have plenty of light to clear a jam that may occur, in a panic situation, because we were not holding it properly or anything else that might cause the guns handling of the ammo to fail. Shotguns with #4 Buck or 00 Buck shot , are really good, but harder to conceal and harder to learn to shoot properly.
Hopefully the economy will turn around, UAW and Management will resolve their differences, Banks will behave themselves, and irresponsible people will be dealt with.
My 1988 Buick Park Avenue isn't my only car that has served me well. I still have a 1989 Cadillac Brougham and had a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe that was still running in 1992. I also had a 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue that I sold to my brother 15 years ago and he's still driving it.
While to each his own, I disagree that the vehicles you have mentioned represent the high point of Detroit automotive engineering (as you seem to be implying). IMO, they were more like living rooms on wheels than automobiles, and represent the nadir of the D3. Same goes for the 60's Impala someone mentioned.
The 78 Ford Fairmont was the biggest POS I have ever owned - worse even than the '73 Fiat I had. Only had it for less than 75,000 miles, but it needed a new/rebuilt tranny at less than 50,000 miles, ignition module, and other items that I have forgotten about. Even the Fiat hung in there for around 120,000 miles, and I probably would have kept it longer had body cancer not taken it's toll.
I am also a happy man for observing the misery of others who bought cars from the land of the Rising Sun. I've had friends,relatives, and coworkers fall for hype generated by the opinion of some increasingly irrelevant, Birkenstock-shod, granola-gorging, aging hippie Boomer editor at CR with a strong resemblance to "Comic Book Guy" who disdained domestic iron because his father who represented the Establishment drove a Cadillac.
Oh crap, give us a break! So the fall of D3 is all because of a the editors at CU?
and having lemko stand in the Buick showroom with his 1988 vehicle fleet will also NOT bring them in...
LOL, that actually made me think of something that happened about a month ago. My neighbor has a 2nd-gen Saturn S-series. One day, he came home, and I could hear the car sounded worse than normal. I looked out the window, and saw steam coming out from under the hood as he was backing it towards the garage. I went outside to see what was up, and if I could help him.
Turns out it was just a busted upper radiator hose. Well, in talking, he said that he wanted to get a job with Saturn. His plan was to offer to use his S-series to shuttle customers back and forth, who were having their cars in for servicing. His car has something like 300,000 miles on it, and his reasoning was that when customers saw how far a Saturn would go, it would be good PR for the company.
I thought that was actually a good idea. Only problem is, every S-series I've been in seems like such an uncomfortable, nasty little torture chamber, that the only PR it's probably good for is to show customers how far Saturn has come! :sick:
Plus, I have a feeling that carting customers around in your own personal car, with that kind of mileage, is a lawsuit just waiting to happen!
But the $40,000 price tag is prohibitive, rockford. Call up your cronies at GM and have them cut that price by about 40% and they'll get a lot more U.S. buyers of their product.
I agree 100%. My commute would fit well within the 40 (?) mile electric-only range of the Volt. But I won't go near it for $40,000. One of the things I look at is the total cost of ownership (TCO) of a vehicle, over the long hall, say 15 years longer. I would never recoup the difference in acquisition cost between the Volt and a Civic or a Focus.
I thought that was actually a good idea. Only problem is, every S-series I've been in seems like such an uncomfortable, nasty little torture chamber, that the only PR it's probably good for is to show customers how far Saturn has come! :sick:
I agree 100%. My commute would fit well within the 40 (?) mile electric-only range of the Volt. But I won't go near it for $40,000. One of the things I look at is the total cost of ownership (TCO) of a vehicle, over the long hall, say 15 years longer. I would never recoup the difference in acquisition cost between the Volt and a Civic or a Focus.
The price has got to come down. You can buy a nice commuter car for nearly 1/2 that amount. $15-20k will buy lots of gas. I hope GM can pull it off, but I will have to see it to believe it.
We are more likely to practice with a gun that doesn't punish us when we practice. I would much rather shoot my Ruger Bisley .45 Long Colt than my Freedom Arms 454 Casull. The Bisley is my bedside weapon. It is sufficient to stop some one.
Here is the point. If the UAW would build a car like Freedom Arms builds a revolver we would not have this thread and GM would still be selling 50% of the cars in America. Heck if they were even as skilled as Ruger workers they would be doing well. The goal of the UAW from the time of Walter Reuther was to have a working class the same as in the USSR. If that was allowed the Yugo would be the average car on our roads. Communism has never built a decent vehicle. Look at Cuba. China did not come out of the 19th century till they adopted a semi market economy. We are headed in the direction of China. They have strong Unions in China.
The early 90's Sentra SE-R, while boring looking, was an awesome performer, bringing back the economy performance cars.
Yep. I still have my '92 SE-R. It's one of my daily drives, the other being an '87 BMW. The SE-R has held up pretty well, considering 3 of my kids learned to drive on it and had it as their vehicle for a couple of years. I test drove the Acura Integra before settling on the Sentra - better performance and the seats were nicer. I don't think the D3 had anything in that class at the time, though the 2L Neon came out shortly thereafter.
Comments
I think you are going to find this administration is the MOST global minded EVER. The USA is no longer going to be a manufacturing base. Those jobs will continue to go to 3rd world countries. Those uneducated in this country will be warehoused in places like Detroit, Chicago and New Orleans and brought out when election time rolls around.
The bright side is a kid will not grow up thinking his only option is to be a lug nut installer.
there you go again!
Guess what? Their time will also come. When they start providing sub-standard service for what they charge, the medical professionals will be treated like stray dogs too by the general public.
>This is the single most advantage of moving/relocating overseas.
Good point. The expense of health-care is a large one in any organization. But do you really think that is why the car manufacturing jobs moved out overseas? If so, don't worry. there will be unrest and they will come down, just like the D3 & UAW because according to your theory most of the country will go down if the D3 goes down, and there will be no one who can afford them with all the good paying jobs going overseas. Just be patient. It is only a matter of time.
Skilled labor built the offices.
Oh! you are saying the UAW built them?
I don't know which way you are talking dude. The problem is not skilled workers. It is the way UAW promotes their work ethics in companies like D3.
That comment gives me a thought. If a doctor makes a mistake, I can get an ambulance chasing lawyer to sue him. With a lucky pick of the jury get a multi million dollar settlement. If a UAW guy screws up my vehicle in assembly what chance of even knowing which one did it? The UAW would cover for the culprit and I would be stuck with a POC vehicle that the doors never shut right. I know for a fact that GM would do nothing except lip service.
No it is the unskilled labor. The Delphi UAW fork lift operator making $100k+ per year and filing bankruptcy, that costs the rest of US money. I can train a kindergarten dropout to run a forklift in a couple hours. So what makes that job worth $60k to over $100k per year? In 1962 a Union fork lift operator for Pacific Telephone made just over minimum wage in San Diego. I know because that was my second job at the telephone company. So Rocky can try to BS how much skill it takes to run a forklift. It just is not true and anything over $10 per hour is extortion. That is exactly what the UAW has done to the D3. Extort wages and benefits far beyond the reality of the rest of the USA and the World. Now their house of cards is tumbling to the ground.
No but it adds value! And it doesn't need to retire! Or go on Strike! Or get paid for not working.
Regards,
OW
How many cars, how many years, how many models does it take to satisfy you?
I've owned in excessive of 60 automobiles and/or trucks in my lifetime. First purchase was in 1958. So I've been purchasing them for over a half century. The first vehicle was a '39 Ford coupe. So the manufacturing years are a span of 70 years.
I learned at an early age how to work on them and keep them running, because that was a necessity and a way of life. I was there when the "[non-permissible content removed] JUNK" invaded our shores. I was at Nalley Chevrolet in Atlanta having my Chevy "Patched" again under warranty when I saw a new line of cars they were starting to carry. It had a motorcycle engine. Little tiny hatch back. It was a Honda! I told the GM they would live to regret that! "[non-permissible content removed] Junk". Now Nalley has several Honda, Acura, Infinity, and so forth scattered around north Georgia. Some don't carry the Nalley name, but are owned by them. They just opened a new super facility in McDonough Ga. , called "Son's Honda". I was wrong. I remember Corollas blowing head gasket for a couple of the early years, but they fixed the problem. And they fixed the customers.
Probably 40 or more of the 60+ that I have owned have been Detroit Iron.
I consider myself an expert on automobile reliability and longevity. That expertise comes from EXPERIENCE! FWIW I have a 78 Chevy Beauville G20 van that I'm determined to to get 200K out of. No matter how much it cost me. So far it has had 2 engine and 3 transmission re builds, and 3 rear end re builds by professionals. Chances are good that I have been buying, driving and repairing vehicles for as long as most folks on these forums have been alive. Experience!
I have no problem when any auto manufacturer has a problem crop up that is out of the ordinary. Honda Oddessy had tranny problems that didn't show up until near or past the warranty, and it wasn't on all transmissions. But they stepped up to the plate and fixed them "FREE" and extended the warranty on the involved year on all those transmission models to 100K miles. Toyota had a sludge problem, but they fixed it. The Toyota Tundra Trucks had some cam shafts break because the supplier was building them out of specs. But they fixed them and dealt with that vendor. .
How long did Chevy engines leak oil around the valve covers and rear main seals before they fixed it? The 1955 V8s did, and it continued on past the 78's. How long did the rubber tipped timing gears break before they decided to fix that? For all I know, they still break!
>"Your sum total experiences of the cars you owned and the years you owned them in isn't exactly a very scientific methodology..."
By definition, for something to be proven scientifically, it has to be repeatable.
For me, from the 39 Ford through the 98 Ram, Detroit Iron has repeated it's indifference toward quality. It has repeated it's indifference to satisfying it's customers, and those customers have bitten the bullet and moved to better products. The 40+ D3 I have owned have repeatedly broken. That is scientific enough for me.
No, it's isn't the UAW's fault that engineering sucked. It isn't their fault that they are installing parts that will break. Or is it? Have they ever gone on strike because they knew they were building inferior products?
It is their fault when the door on one car fits perfectly and another exact car has poorly fitted doors and other parts, or missing parts. There is plenty of blame to go around for the failure of the D3. Management, engineering and labor!
There is an old saying: "You can't polish a turd". Recently "Myth Busters" proved that saying to be "BUSTED". They did, compact and polish some dung to a high shinny luster. But that is really nothing new. The D3 have been doing it for years!
Kip
Regards,
OW
Sheesh! Even the 19th Century anthracite coal miners got Sunday off! Those Chinese managers are even worse than the evil coal barons of old! :mad:
Funny you should bring that up. I don't remember my Dad ever using a credit card when I was a kid. In fact, I don't recall my Dad getting into deep auto loan debt either. I saw him at the kitchen table counting a thick stack stack of hundreds and fifties to buy a new car for CASH!!! You won't see much of that in today's blue collar families.
One of the scariest things is a significant increase in home invasion robberies. I urge everyone to at least get a home security system. I also urge everybody to purchase a handgun, learn how to use it, and get your C/C permit. It's your 2nd Amendment right! These are interesting times indeed!
Of course they never broke! They usually collapsed into a pile of iron oxide dust and dry-rotted plastic after a winter or two. They never had a chance to break!
As Nino Brown said in New Jack City, "There are more poor and disenfranchised people than ever and a lot of folks who wanna get real high real fast!"
Yeah, his only option will be to go tens of thousands of dollars into debt to pursue a college degree that may or may not land him that dream job. If he fails to land any kind of job that pays him a living wage, his options will be retail, fast food, or the large caliber handgun in the nightstand drawer.
Amen! Well said!
OMG! This is the stupidest argument/question I have heard in my whole life. What a dumb question. If a person has a working brain, he would never ask this question.
If you have a Robot, it employees at least 3 persons(skilled & educated) directly, and many more indirectly. I am sure they don't ride a horse to work.
Choose your scenario.
Would you have 10 low paid employees or 3 highly paid employees and a Robot?
Fact is simple: If in this country all the jobs that are left are for skilled & educated folks, the folks that do not educate themselves should export themselves to the countries where jobs are open for them. Please....No need to get alarmed by this train of thought.
Many people, including me, exported myself from our country of origin, to this country as it was the one offering decent jobs for the level of skills and education I had. Quite a few of my friends have moved back to their country of origin because the prospects in the US did not fit their dreams or lifestyle.
reverse immigration might be in order.....
As a saying goes:
Better to be the Kings of the Deaf & Dumb, than be a servant to the highly intelligent.
Question; did she (like most people back then) get driven into a Toyota for fuel economy purposes, or was it a poor experience with Detroit iron.
"What if the UAW ran your household finances?
If the UAW ran your household finances
things might look a great deal different, not to mention inefficient. Your kids would probably make a guaranteed $20 per day in allowance. (Hey, your kids already have "nap rooms." Perfect!) Basically, they're going to get their allowance, regardless of whether they do their chores like perfect angels, practice finger-painting skills on their bedroom walls, set the sofa on fire, or do absolutely nothing. Who needs incentives?"
The Fall of the House of UAW (opinion from the Motley Fool).
cooter: her experience was that the vehicle was given to ger by her brother at the one year old mark (the Toyota, not her brother)...so she drove the little truck until we sold it in 1983 or so with about 135,000 miles...considering that we had always seen Big 3 cars fall apart at 50-75K, to us 135K was a miracle...
lemko: "Then I began to understand why the "[non-permissible content removed]" cars were so popular. The Toyota never broke.
Of course they never broke! They usually collapsed into a pile of iron oxide dust and dry-rotted plastic after a winter or two. They never had a chance to break!"...I am so sorry lemko, you are just plain wrong...I certainly understand that not everyone had the same expereience we did with Hondas or Toyotas, and some have had your great experience with Detroit iron, but the fact is that the number have been changing for years...the fact that millions of folks now buy imports, where it was only thousands in years past, means that SOMETHING has caused these folks to desert Detroit, and with good reason...they made junk, pure and simple...when a door does not close, rocky can blame management, I will always blame the incompetent labor force, but the disenchanted buyer simply buys a Honda, probably never to return to Big 3...so, while rocky tries to justify a floor sweeper making $35/hour, the buyers who pay those bills are deserting Big 3 for poor quality, regardless of whose fault it is...
When nobody buys a car because it is ugly, blame management for poor design...but when someone complains that the car was junky, tinny, doors don't shut, dashboard rattles, windows don't close, balme the idiots that cannot assemble a car properly, let alone Lincoln Logs...
rocky: I am totally against the one world gov't, and they won't need lawyers, finally, an actual moment of reasonable perception from you, and I am glad to have been here to witness it...I was dead set against it with Bush, but what you fail to believe or understand is that Obama will move us closer to it in 4 years than anything else you have seen...as least Bush told the UN to pound sand when they wanted to control our guns, Obama and his Communist Attorney General Holder will sign any treaty the liberal commie UN puts in front of them...Obama is no friend to the 2nd Amendment, and he will do NOTHING to stop the riots that will be coming when the urbans get unrestful...we will be on our own, with our guns and bullets...you are trained in security, I assume you have your guns and ammo, as you will need them more under a Democrat than any Repub of the last 100 years...remember, the Democrats blame Society for someone being a criminal, not the individual...wake up while you can...
I sure hope the gunmakers do not use UAW workers, or our guns will fall apart after the first magazine is empty, if they make guns the way they make cars...
sorry, lemko, your experience is ABSOLUTELY not the general experience of Americans, simply because if it was, we probably would not know how to pronounce Honda or Toyota, as they would be flashes in the pan...if any experience was sheer chance and unscientific, it is yours, lemko...but I wish you the best with them, and hope your 88 lasts another 20 years...even if the carmaker doesn't...
Geeze, they all sound like adjectives I'd use to describe the average 1970s Japanese car. My girlfriend's father bought an orange 1974 Datsun in response to the fuel crises of that decade. His regular car was a blue 1966 Ford Galaxie 500 sedan. He told me that driving that Datsun on Philadelphia's Schuylkill Express was a downright scary experience as it couldn't keep up with traffic and the car felt like it was going to shake apart. One day it blew a connecting rod right through the hood of the car. It was about three years old. That 1966 Galaxie? My girlfriend was still driving it in the late 1980s.
My 1988 Buick Park Avenue isn't my only car that has served me well. I still have a 1989 Cadillac Brougham and had a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe that was still running in 1992. I also had a 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue that I sold to my brother 15 years ago and he's still driving it. That can't be just chance. Domestic automakers truly do build excellent vehicles. If it was chance, then I should just quit my job and become a professional gambler because I'd have to be the luckiest guy on earth!
The truth always hurts. The ironic thing is the fight we see during the Race to the Bottom. Even on a clear day, there is confusion!
Regards,
OW
Lemko, I'm trying to follow your analysis of 1960's American cars and 1970's Japanese cars. Can you tell me how many 1970's Japanese cars you actually owned or even drove? Not your stepfather's third cousin's babysitter's first boyfriend's red headed step brother, but you yourself?
Second, are you a blood relative of Rocky?
Third, do you realize that 1970 was almost 40 years ago?
Fourth, have you ever heard the Japanese motto of "Always improve" and the American motto of "Don't fix it if it ain't broke"?
Despite the decline, the UAE remained one of the biggest oil earners in the 12-nation Organisation of Petroleum Exporting CountriesOrganisation of Petroleum Exporting CountriesOrganization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries
OPEC while it was second to Saudi Arabia in 2008, when it netted nearly $89bn.
4,621,399 population
http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidZAWYA20090222040455
By market capitalization, it is now worth more than the two previous global corporate front-runners, ExxonMobil and General Electric, combined. A unit of the state-owned China National Petroleum Corp., PetroChina is unquestionably China's biggest oil producer. But PetroChina makes only one quarter of the revenue that Exxon rakes in, and it also has slightly less in oil and gas reserves—an important factor investors consider when they weigh an oil company's future prospects. Significantly, though, PetroChina's reserves have been growing at about 5 percent a year in recent years, outpacing those of Exxon and other oil giants.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/economy/2007/11/05/now-from-china-the-wo- rlds-biggest-company.html
One United Auto, Aerospace, Agriculture Implement Worker, one Brother of Electrical Workers, and one International Brotherhood of Machinist.
That would be an improvement over 20 unskilled UAW workers making $30 per hour using a hammer and anvil to make car parts.
Despite our results with the 75 Toy pickup, I would have to agree with you, generally, on the Japanese cars of the 1970s...
Now, once we get into the 80s, your thoughts are all wet and dead wrong...they learned what they did wrong in the 70s, and our Hondas of the 80s were sheer joy...just as you have your 88, my 88 Legend and Prelude were the two best cars I have ever owned...they were traded in 1998 and 2001 and were the most ergonomic and reliable vehicles I have owned...
Your experience with 88 Big 3 cars is literally unique, and, sadly, is probably shared by very few...so, while you talk about your reliability with your cars, most others have NOT had that experience and have found what they believe is a better product...
The Buick Roadmaster was an ugly boat, and for that I blame management...but when doors don't fit (ask gagrice) and windows fall off track, I blame labor...
IMO, more people will desert an automaker because of poor build quality (or items that can never be fixed) rather than look of the car, and that is why I blame UAW workers for poor quality American products and the rise of the Japanese...
You can see the looks of the car when you buy it, so you know what you are getting right there, but if the size fits your needs, you may buy it and live with it for years (think minivans)...that is where you make your opinion of management...
But you ASSUME that quality is there, and when nothing works right, or rattles in the dash, or the door never quite closes properly, that is something that may take a day/week/month or more to show up...that is where your opinion on the assembled quality of the car is formed, and if it never runs right, that is where your opinion is formed about UAW assembly labor, whether you realize it or not...no, the average buyer (not us) does not think about unionized labor (we might, but they don't), they just realize they bought junk and may never buy that brand again...and, if they have bought GM, and their last clunker was Ford, you can be sure they will seek out Honda and Toyota next...and, if they are like most Honda or Toy buyers, they will NEVER go Big 3 again...that is the legacy of UAW workers...
and having lemko stand in the Buick showroom with his 1988 vehicle fleet will also NOT bring them in...
so, lemko, while you sit here and praise your vehicles, and you should for the way they have lasted, you must come to reality...YOU are the unique one, along with your cars, as the rest of America, or at least a major portion, has not had your luck with Big 3 iron...
bg: KAIZEN...constant, incremental improvement...they (Japanese)are always looking for a way to improve some thing to make it more efficient...it may also make it cheaper thru greater efficiency, but the intent is improvement...
Here it sometimes seems that it isn't "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but more like "Even if it is broke, don't fix it"...which is, IMO, the motto of the UAW, or at least what is left of it, and soon to be even fewer...
I guess what amuses me the most is how the UAW proponents are simply blind to what has hit them in the last 20-30 years...they bellieve that their jobs are gifts from God by Divine Right, they are oblivious to the cars made by Lexus, Infiniti, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Acura, and they wonder how anyone could even consider cars by the aforementioned automakers...they are incapable of seeing the general trend of Big 3 product quality that has been dropping for years (yes, lemko, even you can see outside of your own garage), altho it really is great to see better cars coming from Detroit NOW, but it is like they woke up yesterday and saw their first Honda dealership selling Accords...and all they can do is try and justify why a floor sweeper should be paid $60K a year for a job reserved for the average teenager getting his first job...the UAW proponents have their heads as deep into the sand as the UAW workers, and cannot see the handwriting on the wall...
Yes, I lament the loss of our industrial base, but they priced themselves out of the market...we have lost our base because the workers demanded more pay than the product would support, PLUS the stupid, ignorant work rules that caused the work force to want 4 workers to do the work of one...
I would bet we would still have our steel industry if it was nonunion, simply because we would not need 200,000 steelworkers to do the work of 50,000...but the USW union was no different than the UAW, taking an 8 hour job, splitting it up for 4 people, each doing 2 hours worth of work for 8 hours pay...
We lost our steel industry not because of the pay of one worker, but that 4 workers were paid to do the job of one worker...bring back steel plants without unions, and I would bet the industry would thrive, as long as they had a handle on labor costs and no restrictions on work rules...i.e. run the plant like the japanese would, and I would bet our entire steel industry would be back in 5 years, and imported steel would rust in the yards...but they are too stupid to do it without a union, so we lament the "loss of our industrial base" when we should be lamenting the stupidity of workers who fail to understand the cost of labor...
First of all, the Japanese made nothing I'd have been remotely interested in buying in the 1970s. It wasn't until the Lexus LS400 that I'd have even considered a car from Nippon. Japanese cars of the 1970s were so indescribably ugly I'd have to drink the entire Jack Daniels distillery just to endure the shame of being SEEN as a passenger in one, let alone drive one which would require so much heroin and marijuana there is not enough arable land on earth to grow enough poppies or hemp. I guess Toho Studios was designing Toyotas when they weren't busy making Godzilla flicks. However...
Wise is the man who learns from his own experiences.
Happy is the man who learns from the experiences of others.
I am a wise man for my experience with General Motors cars, especially Buick, has taught me domestic automakers are truly capable of building excellent vehicles.
I am also a happy man for observing the misery of others who bought cars from the land of the Rising Sun. I've had friends,relatives, and coworkers fall for hype generated by the opinion of some increasingly irrelevant, Birkenstock-shod, granola-gorging, aging hippie Boomer editor at CR with a strong resemblance to "Comic Book Guy" who disdained domestic iron because his father who represented the Establishment drove a Cadillac.
Japanese cars of the 1970s were bought for one reason - fuel economy. Other than that, there was little to recommend them. As I mentioned before, it certainly wasn't styling. It most definitely wasn't performance. Your average 1970s Japanese car made a 1960 Ford Falcon seem like a Formula One racer.
I've seen the bodies on their Toyotas, Hondas, Datsuns, and Subarus rust with a fierocious vengeance. Heck the Titanic had less rust on it after 90 years under the Atlantic than a Honda after two Northeast winters. I've seen the thin vinyl interior split after two summers and gave off such a noxious odor that the interior should've been declared a Superfund site. I've seen such thin sheet metal on a Honda that a carelessly laid textbook caved in the hood. I've seen the gruesome results of a single car accidents involving a Japanese car and some fixed object that would leave Jeffrey Dahmer forever vomiting. The driver of a domestic car would've walked away from a similar mishap.
More recently, I've seen a failed transmission in a co-worker's wife's Acura TL, a failed clutch in a young guy's new Acura RSX, a trunk that wouldn't open on a late-model Camry. And a water pump that failed in a Camry after a mere 17K miles with a blubbering owner who truly believed that Toyotas don't break.
Operative word being UAW. :shades:
"The UAW's image problem stems from the fact that it has been arguably much better at doing its job than the Big Three management teams have been at theirs. Over the past 60 years, many of the benefits that both blue- and white-collar workers hold dear were either won or expanded by the UAW."
The UAW Fights Its Image as the Villain of Detroit (Time)
Like I told you earlier, when I go to buy a car that I love(leaves all UAW-made rigs out, BTW) I don't figure in the political bickering count in there. If Japan subsidizes each or many of their carmakers, so be it. I am looking for the best car for our money(wife and I, and we are a one-car couple, too, so the vehicle we get is our one vehicle for years, big decision) and, the last time I looked, it was not against the law to buy a Japanese or Korean vehicle. They have to pass our safety and emissions tests, like any other imports or domestics have to.
No, it's not a "save our domestic automaker" type of decision. It's a "let's buy what we want and love and can afford for our situation" type of decision.
Mitsubishi Motors is a subsidiary of a larger Mitsubishi Company. They write off the losses. It is true that there is always the threat of Big Mitsu Bro cutting off support for Little Mitsu Motors Bro and them leaving the U.S. That is not a death sentence for our '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS, rockford.
First of all, I don't think that is going to happen. Mitsu is working hard on their all-electric i-MiEV and other vehicles for the future that should sell well. Remember, Mitsubishi sells well in the UK and other places, the U.S. is not their only market but it is an important market for them, yes.
Without going in to a discussion on Mitsubishi, hasn't this slapping a tariff on imports discussion died in the water time and again. That type of tax actually comes back to slap countries silly eventually, that type of argument. Surely you've read your large import tariff argument get shot down in flames several times in here.
So it's doubtful that the Federal Guv-Mint will opt for that method of madness anytime soon. The D3 and the UAW will just need to consolidate and build better tomorrows for themselves and anyone willing to part with cash for a D3 new vehicle.
At this point I would shun such a move, too much insecurity in a decision like that right now. Eh? And that's if they made anything I would be remotely interested in buying. Here's one: the 2010 Chevy Volt. Too bad the General is going to ask $40,000 for one. :sick: I think they may have engineered a decent idea with the Volt.
Trouble is, it's unproven technology. The ICE motor onboard just to re-charge the electrical motor, after the all-electric motor has given it's driver the first 40 miles on electrical power completely. And a total range of "300 miles" is promised, I've read some estimates of 400 miles. And it will depend on how the EPA deduces the relationship between the electrical motor and the ICE motor and their function whether the Volt will get a 50mpg designation or a 100mpg designation. So there's a few questions to resolve, the one I am wondering about is how is the test-muling going on these Volt pups? Chev would say it's coming along well, I'm sure.
But the $40,000 price tag is prohibitive, rockford. Call up your cronies at GM and have them cut that price by about 40% and they'll get a lot more U.S. buyers of their product. According to the April R&T article on the 2010 Chevy Volt, Chevy is really putting a lot of stock in this car to show that the General can lead the industrial world in automotive technology once again. And reading about the propulsion and other details about the car are fairly impressive. I would be lying to ya if I told ya I was not interested in the Volt. But the problem they're going to have, if they're even in business in 2010, is the $40,000 price for this car. They've got to find a way to cut that price way down or it won't sell in big enough number for them.
The 2010 MItsubishi i-MiEV will cost what, about $24,000? Or close to that, and it will be eligible, as will the 2010 Volt, for at least a portion of the Obama $7,500 "green alternative" car rebate. Which passed and is now in the books as law, BTW. How much of the $7,500 you will get depends on the size of your all-electric or hybrids battery. 16kwh batteries on board net you the full $7,500 and it gets sliced bit by bit the smaller (or should I say less powerful) the battery your car's manufacturer supplies you with.
Oh, bring on the 2010 Pininfarina-Bollore B0. It comes to three U.S. test markets(one of them being L.A.) in 2009, then approximately 10,000 B0's hit American shores starting in September of 2010. P-B makes it clear that these are not "concept" cars on their website they're indeed "production" cars. And the B0's are to cost in the same range as the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, $23,000-$24,000(before the "green rebate"). See what I mean about the Volt being overpriced...just a tad. It is true that the Volt resembles mostly the old-world-order car the most, midsize competitive size to a Camry or a Fulan, no? So, there's a tack on more of a price argument. The new 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid is priced around $27,000 for a comparison. So the Volt would qualify for the $7,500 rebate and be priced at about $32,500 after the green rebate. Getting closer to reality, anyway.
So there's 3 "green" mobiles coming in 2010 that will be in direct competition with each other. The American-built one will cost fully $10,000 more than the Italian-French job and the Japanese all-electric. That's not an impressive selling point outta da gate for the Americans in this "green-mobile" race, rockford. Agreed? Penny for your thoughts(or anyone else interested) in this forward-thinking automotive matter.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I guess the only exception would be the Datsun 240Z. I'd love to have an early 70's Z. Just a timeless style and design. To bad most have rusted away.
The only Japanese vehicles that have impressed me have been mainly Nissan's and Honda's. The 80's Accord and CRX were the first Asian car's I drove and they opened my eyes on how well a 4cyl could run. Most of the domestics I drove in the 80's were 4cyl, the Honda's really stood out. Then the late 80's brought the Maxima with Nissan's vaunted 3.0 v6. The early 90's Sentra SE-R, while boring looking, was an awesome performer, bringing back the economy performance cars. These car's probably wouldn't interest a fullsize GM car fan, but to those of us who bought small to midsize cars, the Honda's and Nissan's really stood out.
Arrogance of the UAW be damned. Imbalance eventually rights itself.
Regards,
OW
More lies you have been told and believed.
Flint Strikes Settled, But Issues Go Unresolved
The settlements contain concessions. The controversial "pegged rates," which allow a few hundred workers to stop work early if they meet their quotas, will be preserved, but the quotas are jacked-up 15 percent. This is a significant speed-up that will reduce any extra break time these heavy, dirty jobs might allow.
At the Delphi East plant the union agreed to continue working with the company to increase productivity.
http://www.labornotes.org/node/1828
US has protected the D3 since the 50s. Time to open up the market and make it FREE.
Being a PU truck person the Subsidies to the D3 are an issue for me. You continually whine about Japan subsidizing their auto companies. Well the USA has protected the UAW and D3 since the 50s with a 25% tariff on foreign built PU Trucks. The D3 would probably already be history if not for that protectionism. No one is going to pay 25% more even if the truck is superior and gets twice the mileage of the D3 PU truck.
You always say how there is a cover-up of better alternatives. There is a big one for you. People all over the world have PU trucks that get up to 45 MPG. They are not allowed in the USA.
Absolutely! Also important to practice alot. We should be as familiar with the operations of our firearms as we are with the operations of our vehicles. In an emergency, we should not have to stop to remember how to use the gun. We should only be concerned as to whether or not to use it.
38 Special +P in a good "Jacked Hollow Point" works just fine. Anything smaller than 38 Special may not be enough.
For an "IN House" or "In Car" gun, a revolver is hard to beat. If a revolver doesn't fire for some reason, just pull the trigger again, and the cylinder will rotate to the next cartridge. A full size all steel gun is best, because the weight soaks up a lot of the felt recoil. We are more likely to practice with a gun that doesn't punish us when we practice.
Semi automatics in 9mm,40 S&W, and 45ACP work even better but are generally fired from simi-automatic pistols and are harder to master. They are fine when we are fully awake and have plenty of light to clear a jam that may occur, in a panic situation, because we were not holding it properly or anything else that might cause the guns handling of the ammo to fail. Shotguns with #4 Buck or 00 Buck shot , are really good, but harder to conceal and harder to learn to shoot properly.
Hopefully the economy will turn around, UAW and Management will resolve their differences, Banks will behave themselves, and irresponsible people will be dealt with.
But, bad guys don't need an excuse, ever.
Kip
While to each his own, I disagree that the vehicles you have mentioned represent the high point of Detroit automotive engineering (as you seem to be implying). IMO, they were more like living rooms on wheels than automobiles, and represent the nadir of the D3. Same goes for the 60's Impala someone mentioned.
The 78 Ford Fairmont was the biggest POS I have ever owned - worse even than the '73 Fiat I had. Only had it for less than 75,000 miles, but it needed a new/rebuilt tranny at less than 50,000 miles, ignition module, and other items that I have forgotten about. Even the Fiat hung in there for around 120,000 miles, and I probably would have kept it longer had body cancer not taken it's toll.
I am also a happy man for observing the misery of others who bought cars from the land of the Rising Sun. I've had friends,relatives, and coworkers fall for hype generated by the opinion of some increasingly irrelevant, Birkenstock-shod, granola-gorging, aging hippie Boomer editor at CR with a strong resemblance to "Comic Book Guy" who disdained domestic iron because his father who represented the Establishment drove a Cadillac.
Oh crap, give us a break! So the fall of D3 is all because of a the editors at CU?
LOL, that actually made me think of something that happened about a month ago. My neighbor has a 2nd-gen Saturn S-series. One day, he came home, and I could hear the car sounded worse than normal. I looked out the window, and saw steam coming out from under the hood as he was backing it towards the garage. I went outside to see what was up, and if I could help him.
Turns out it was just a busted upper radiator hose. Well, in talking, he said that he wanted to get a job with Saturn. His plan was to offer to use his S-series to shuttle customers back and forth, who were having their cars in for servicing. His car has something like 300,000 miles on it, and his reasoning was that when customers saw how far a Saturn would go, it would be good PR for the company.
I thought that was actually a good idea. Only problem is, every S-series I've been in seems like such an uncomfortable, nasty little torture chamber, that the only PR it's probably good for is to show customers how far Saturn has come! :sick:
Plus, I have a feeling that carting customers around in your own personal car, with that kind of mileage, is a lawsuit just waiting to happen!
I agree 100%. My commute would fit well within the 40 (?) mile electric-only range of the Volt. But I won't go near it for $40,000. One of the things I look at is the total cost of ownership (TCO) of a vehicle, over the long hall, say 15 years longer. I would never recoup the difference in acquisition cost between the Volt and a Civic or a Focus.
Isn't that the truth.
Yeah right! Through the hood. Uh huh! :sick:
The price has got to come down. You can buy a nice commuter car for nearly 1/2 that amount. $15-20k will buy lots of gas. I hope GM can pull it off, but I will have to see it to believe it.
I would much rather shoot my Ruger Bisley .45 Long Colt than my Freedom Arms 454 Casull. The Bisley is my bedside weapon. It is sufficient to stop some one.
Here is the point. If the UAW would build a car like Freedom Arms builds a revolver we would not have this thread and GM would still be selling 50% of the cars in America. Heck if they were even as skilled as Ruger workers they would be doing well. The goal of the UAW from the time of Walter Reuther was to have a working class the same as in the USSR. If that was allowed the Yugo would be the average car on our roads. Communism has never built a decent vehicle. Look at Cuba. China did not come out of the 19th century till they adopted a semi market economy. We are headed in the direction of China. They have strong Unions in China.
Yep. I still have my '92 SE-R. It's one of my daily drives, the other being an '87 BMW. The SE-R has held up pretty well, considering 3 of my kids learned to drive on it and had it as their vehicle for a couple of years. I test drove the Acura Integra before settling on the Sentra - better performance and the seats were nicer. I don't think the D3 had anything in that class at the time, though the 2L Neon came out shortly thereafter.