I think you have to include the attorneys & Insurance in the high cost of health care.
Like the California case in which an OBGYN admitted to a mistake. The tort reform capped his liability. They failed to factor in the cost of this child being raised. 3 million or more will have to be picked up by the taxpayers. There is no free lunch. That along with the very expensive treatments offered.
Are we aware that $.33 of every dollar is for no value added services by the managed care industry? All the while we belittle the govt, who only cost $.14 of every dollar in the single payer Medicare/Medicaid system.
If as you say the AMA restricts new doctors why the steady stream of foreign doctors going into practice. Are you saying they prefer Indian and Pakistani doctors to US citizen doctors?
This is no secret and one can Google the fact that historically the AMA has limited the supply of doctors coming from American medical schools. The so called "brain drain" occurred in Britain when they socialized medicine. The doctors relocated into America, until they enacted laws.
Lets not forget the drug makers distorting markets either and the barriers put up by Bush in those seeking to buy medication in Canada.
Bottom-line is that they affect all employment here and are a greater harm than the UAW as a special interest. Until this is fixed, the cost of adding the marginal employee will be greater in America and or deter the hiring all together.
My friend, first of all you need to know that supply and demand factor into the price. Price is just a rationing mechanism.
Money is many things, a median of exchange and a storer of value. Money has to be portable and hard to duplicate. The purchasing power of money is as important if not more so than any of its traits.
"Ford Motor Company's 42,000 UAW members start voting on a new contract this weekend and if they ratify, analysts say, equally big changes are headed the way of Canada's CAW autoworkers.
From less overtime to new work rules for skilled trades and fewer cash payouts of all kinds, sweeping changes are likely in store for the CAW members who work for Ford, General Motors and Chrysler."
FYI, Rockwell was the prime contractor and now Boeing for the shuttle. Many a union worker (including UAW) labor (both engineering and craft) have gone into the shuttle and space station. Prior to the shuttle disaster, Lockheed had a new design for the shuttle. It was scrubbed. They are now reconsidering. I recall it being called the X33. I could go on to tell you some interesting space knowledge, but Steve wouldn't like that.
Poor babies. No wonder the D3 is on the verge of bankruptcy. Ten and a half weeks off PAID per year. And Rocky was lamenting teachers getting two months in the summer with a Christmas and Spring break. I thought my 160 hours off per year was a lot. Is there no end. How anyone cannot see how this negatively affects the guy at the bottom of the labor totem pole is beyond me. I would say that at least 75% of the US workforce is paid less than an average UAW worker with any time at the job. That includes a large portion of the white collar workers with college degrees.
The UAW has agreed to see its $600 Christmas bonus suspended; CAW members receive $1,700 at Christmas. The UAW has also agreed to give up lump-sum payouts in lieu of vacation not taken -- a benefit extremely popular with senior CAW members, many of whom take cash payouts rather than take advantage of the full 10.5 weeks of paid time off available to them each year after 20 years seniority.
Our company dropped the Christmas bonus during the horrible 90s. Cheap oil was not good for everyone.
I recall that a spokesman for China said they worked 16 hours a day and 7 days a week. This is a race to the bottom. Working a man/woman ungodly amounts of overtime to save on benefits to next marginal employee does require giving them time off for family/rest.
However, I did see the UAW worker a bit behind the CAW. Then too, I fail to see great savings. In the case that things turn around the UAW retirees medical legacy may come out of this looking like bandits if current market conditions are indeed a buying opportunity for stocks.
Reuther contributed more to the current problems than he did to making a better America. I would argue that Unions did NOT do enough to give the individual incentive to be the best worker they could be. Protecting lousy and lazy workers is not something to brag about in my opinion. Collectively bargaining for competitive wages and benefits is fine. Making rules that inhibit a company from being competitive is regressive. The UAW under Reuther may have been the most regressive Union. Though others are close. So you have Reuther to thank for much of the D3 mess today. I hope he is listening from down below.
It may be. I like to think as one of my favorite writers Jerry Pournelle wrote in the 1970s. We will not be successful till we bring all the countries around US up to our standard of living. It is too late to build walls around the USA. The UAW members will have to accept that they had a good run and it is over. Just like so many companies and businesses before. Do you think the auto makers worried about putting the wagon makers out of business? No different today.
Thats plain silly since most if not all innovation comes from America.
Innovation is not the same as having $billion dollar plants which produce those goods. That would take many years to build.
And you didn't address the fuel issue. Are we going to make that too?
The scenario is:
US turns protectionist Other countries turn protectionist US faces loss of critical components US may want to build them, but in the meantime we suffer greatly Fuel boycott by OPEC due to US protectionism
Yes, your scenario of living within our own borders works real well.
The Big 3 are not suffering as a result of the decisions jointly made between any or all of them and the UAW today. They are suffering as a result of decisions made by those entities in the 1950s and 1960s, when the Big 3 could be fairly said to have oligopoly power and could easily pass on these costs to consumers. Once that power was lost, these legacy costs were left over and the Big 3 could never quite figure out a way (until recently) to get out from under them.
How silly. You're saying the big 3's problems stem from decisions made over 40 years ago? So it takes 40 years to recover from bad decisions? I think the management is a bit overpaid if it takes them so long to make decisions that benefit the company.
Agility in companies is a competitive advantage and the J3 and even Hyundai know that. Expecting the D3 to take 40 years to recover from decisions-- no wonder they are in the dumper.
We're in complete agreement Dallas - I try not to get distracted and get off topic too far. Even though I've replied to your posts a few times, its for ease of postings; I tend to reply when I have a strong reaction - to this point I tend to strongly agree with you. I could go on and on with economics, but we have to speak to the lowest common denominator..
So it takes 40 years to recover from bad decisions?
Apple was first to the icon driven menu and it wasn't until the IPOD that they were considered anything more than a niche in the computer market. Certainly they didn't have anywhere near the lions share of the PC or operating system market.
Agility in companies is a competitive advantage and the J3 and even Hyundai know that.
So how do suppose that J3 will be able to over come the competitive advantage China enjoys? What can they do now, to be more than just a niche market? They will not be looking at legacy cost, but rather a much cheaper/leaner labor market.
Yup - I work in the Aerospace sector myself. I was only pointing out that varying job experiences and qualifications, supply and demand for labor are what determines wages (the price of labor). Unions attempting to artifically boost wages doesn't spell long term viability of their host companies. Unions survive in companies like Lockheed Boeing and General Dynamics because the few companies that can compete for military prime contracts all have basically the same union handicap, in effect nullifying it.
I like to think as one of my favorite writers Jerry Pournelle wrote in the 1970s.
I also recall reading a book back in 1984. Forget the title and or author. But it was claiming all the virtue of Japan as the ideal govt/culture. That was prior to the "Lost Decade", which left them in a condition which we may likely face. Oops, there it is $.01 on Amazon.
The M-Form Society: How American Teamwork Can Recapture the Competitive Edge (Paperback)
Unions attempting to artifically boost wages doesn't spell long term viability of their host companies.
We also need to acknowledge the fact that the so called prevailing wage in a society is raised by the unions being there. Certainly the transplants are offering better wages, than if the UAW wasn't present in this nation. The point has been made here that salaried folks in the Big 3 have enjoyed benefits, during the good time, equal if not better benefits than that of the UAW rank and file membership. During these lean days, these have been taken away from the salaried folks as a cost cutting measure. They have claimed this is unfair, however, the UAW did indeed offer them the prospect of representation years ago. At that time they passed on being represented by a collective bargaining unit.
Then the aerospace/defense business was downsized years ago and outsourcing is common in the industry. So most union locals enjoy better relations with management, than that of the auto industry, which has a national agreement covering many plants. Then you have to certainly factor in the skill level of assembly as oppose to the low initial production rates skilled labor. Then most major defense concerns have a larger overseas customer base than that of the auto giants. We see offsets as a method of getting other nations to ante up some defense funding. But, I would agree that there is no where near the artificial wages the industry as oppose to the auto industry. Fact is they have outside contractors doing the floor sweeping and security is also done by sub contractors. Defined pensions are going too as they attempt to match more 401K retirement funds.
I'm in aerospace/defense also and don't see the big picture. Then when I think I see the big picture, its but a small piece of the big puzzle. However, I think the loss of jobs in the industry happened years ago and those big companies in California are a fraction of their size today.
The first computer I remember with a GUI (graphical user interface) was the Xerox STAR (?) which was developed by Xerox's Palo Alto Research Group (PARC) in the early 1980's. They never commercialized the computer, nor did they patent or copyright much/any of the GUI. Steve Jobs saw the Star demo'd during a visit to PARC, loved what he saw, and the rest is history.
Atari & Amiga also jumped into the GUI fray and did not keep going. I opted for the Atari over the Mac as it was color with a decent sized screen. I'm with DD on this one. If not for the iPod Apple would be gone from the scene. In spite of a very dedicated group of followers. They only made money when Jobs was at the helm. He is gone again, so what will happen is anyone's guess. Notice all those companies did fine as well as their employees without a Union. Now MS is laying off for the first time I believe. This recession will get rid of some dead weight in every part of our economy. Wishfully we could dump about half the Federal government jobs or privatize them. Get rid of the department of education for starters.
Meanwhile Xerox made billions from the laser printer, developed at PARC. They also sold mail-order computer kits and some lawyer's kid up in Seattle got one of those to hack on. Xerox PARC also "gave away" WYSIWYG, hypertext, Ethernet and TCP/IP. But they were commercial - for example, PARC got Apple stock in exchange for some of that GUI knowledge they developed.
Now to tie it all to the UAW (ha!) - Apple's market share is now around 10%.
The trade union market share was 9% in 2000. It might have taken a little bump since then.
The all-time trade union market share was in its heyday in the mid-50, when membership peaked in actual numbers and in market share of around 39%. link.
UAW membership peaked at 1.5 million in 1979 and is now below 500,000 (seems like someone posted even lower current numbers in here once upon a time). (MSNBC).
PARC hasn't gone away - maybe the UAW won't either?
"Seeking to lobby our elected representatives".....who are largely trial lawyers. Like the American Bar Assoc. (ABA) or Amer.Trial Lawyers don't have their levels of influence (lobbies)?
It's just amazing how some people love to take an issue, like the UAW's controversies, and instead of refuting them, spin it to another one.
Unions have had their functional place in our country's history, but unfortunately have abused their power to the extent that it is helped put some US industries out of business here. Look what the steel workers's union did to Youngstown, Ohio and the country's steel industry. Now, it's the US auto industry.
>Even the great conservative economics Nobel prize winner Krugman has come down as a buy American, given the current conditions.
Nothing wrong with that. I even promote shopping the the city I live over other cities. The only problem is that product quality needs to be better. You have to agree on that DallasDude.
That's not what I remember and I'm probably 8 - 10 years older than you. My grandpa was a 40 year union employee of the steel mills in Gary, In. He never had more than one car and always kept them 5+ years. My FIL, also a 30 year employee of the steel mills has only bought two new cars ever. He's still driving a '95 Tahoe.
Well they must of spent their disposable income on something else or had quite a bit in the bank I would think because those steel mills in Gary, were good paying bluecollar jobs back in the day!!!
Then again, I didn't grow up around the "rich" UAW workers. As for cars being better back in the "day". That is complete B.S. There is a reason why the "shade tree" mechanic was coined. Those cars needed extensive maintenance every year in terms of tune ups etc. Rarely did you see a car go 150k miles plus, heck most didn't make it to 100k w/o rusting out or needing a new engine.
The union steel mill jobs paid better than the Big 3 FYI dieselone!!! I agree they weren't as reliable but they were made very well given the time and technology!!!
I had a '71 Mustang convertible in high school. I was lucky to keep it running for 3 mos. at a time. Points, condensers, flaky carburetors, not to mention poor handling, poor brakes, and most of those cars were slow unless they had a big block or a highly tuned small block that hardly ever stayed running right. The only thing those old cars had was distinctive styling and nostalgia.
But the cost vs disposable income your average person had back then was a lot more in line than today. People didn't live on credit back then at least my family didn't!!!
IMO there are only a few bright spots in the 70's and most of those are probably big GM cars. I remember my dad's '73 Torino. At 3 years old and 25k miles, the vinyl roof was peeling, the doors were rusting, and its 302 v8 needed a valve job by 30k miles.
Well 25 years later you had Toyota's with engine sludge thus what's your point??? :confuse:
I also had a 75 Buick Regal coupe with a 350. I remember when my Grandpa gave it to me in '87. He was so proud he had gotten 120k miles out of it. Boy was that a beaut. 150 or so HP and 4000lbs, 15mpg at best, maybe 11 second 0-60. Yep, those were the days. Well it pretty much kept me out of trouble. It was slow and I couldn't afford to drive it much. The only bonus, I was able to put lots of girls in it on Friday nights:)
The Big 3 are not suffering as a result of the decisions jointly made between any or all of them and the UAW today. They are suffering as a result of decisions made by those entities in the 1950s and 1960s, when the Big 3 could be fairly said to have oligopoly power and could easily pass on these costs to consumers.
Oh, enlightened one, I think you forgot the fact that the arrogance completely blinded all decisions SINCE the '60's particularly the fact that close scrutiny of market forces were completely disregarded to the point all metrics of the D3 and the UAW were set up to fail after the critical point was met in 2007 as gas prices destroyed the model that was a paper tiger based on trucks and SUV's.
What many people fail to realize is that GM was an anomaly with over 50% of the U.S. auto market. Realistically, that is not how a competitive market operates for very long. It took a special set of circumstances for GM to have that much of a market for that long. Essentially, Europe got blown to hell in WW II and did not have much manufacturing capability in the 50s and 60s, and there was a pent-up demand after the war for everything—along with a bit of protectionism.
What we are seeing now is the continuation of a process in manufacturing that started in the 1970s. Consequently, the escalation of gasoline prices just brought to a head what was bound to happen naturally in time.
No longer can powerful companies such as GM determine what the customer will buy and at what price. The possible future of GM will depend on how well they can supply customers with vehicles they wish to buy at prices they can afford. Those companies that excel at what they do will survive. Those who don’t, well. . . .
IOW, the D3 failed to see those market forces and change to stay competitive and make CARS that people wanted that are friendly to the value proposition craved by the customer as well as beneficial to the environment.
The future looks rather bleak for all parties involved, particularly the poor sods who paid union dues for what will be a blood bath going forward.
Oh, enlightened one, please spare this miserable life because I speak economic sense. I throw myself on your Mercy!
Who is telling you this b.s. about them slowing machines down at Delphi??? Where are you getting this info. from??? I can focus on the UAW, yes did they make mistakes in the 1980's with their work rules??? YES!!! They should of allowed more automation at the plants to make them more competitive and MAY OF kept more plants here which may or may not of made a difference to the outcome we have today. GM/Delphi, have done time studies on each job and do an average. There are so many unknown variables on each job from making a part and doing quality inspection before passing it on to the next station gagrice, unless you've worked in that kind of a field you simpily won't understand. Machines break down often and parts on the machines have to be replaced which might hurt your total number for the day. I guess your average american is naive to the manufacturing industry thus they will believe what they read just like many people believe that UAW workers make $154 an hour. My father had a neighbor the other day tell him he must be very rich because he made $ 154 an hour and no wonder why cars cost so much!!! :sick:
Crime rates skyrocketed in the 1960s, when American industry was booming. They declined in the 1990s, when America was supposedly "deindustrializing." There is no credible proof that economic downturns bring about an increase in crime. Contrary to popular belief, crime was not a problem during the Great Depression.
Then the aerospace/defense business was downsized years ago and outsourcing is common in the industry. So most union locals enjoy better relations with management, than that of the auto industry, which has a national agreement covering many plants. Then you have to certainly factor in the skill level of assembly as oppose to the low initial production rates skilled labor.
I too work for a major defense contractor. 13 years ago, our new president gave the unions I guess what turned out to be an ultimatum. Either they drop some of the work rules and featherbedding, or he would move the manufacturing elsewhere. We already had a printed circuit card assembly place in Texas that had been built in the late 70's. We also had (still have) some facilities in Puerto Rico, so I think they got the message.
Maybe 5 years ago, we installed a PCB assembly area in the plant here, and last year closed down the Texas facility. Difference is that the PCB line is now highly automated. For many of our boards, the (union) workers just have to keep the reels with the parts on them filled up. Some boards require touch labor, but not many. Technicians that do that sort of work (manually wire bond; solder 20 mil lead pitch parts, that sort of stuff) are highly valued.
When I started we had around 15,000 people on site. Most of them were in the manufacturing area. I still remember the rows upon rows of long tables with women at them, hand soldering parts on boards, wiring chassis', etc. Now, we only have around 8,000 people on site, even though the physical plant has expended considerably. The loss has been in the manufacturing area. The number of professionals (engineers) is probably close to what is was 40 years ago, despite the roller-coaster ride of the mergers in the 80's.
We have some other former technicians who, seeing how breadboarding was being done less and less, taught themselves how to use some of our CAD/CAM tools. We use them now for schematic capture and some mechanical design tasks.
Somehow, I can't see any of that being dome in a militant, UAW lead organization. Around here, the workers and the union adapted. Or they would have become extinct. Industrial Darwinism at work.
Darwin gets "credit" for survival of the fittest, but he was also about cooperation between the species. Species survival is as much a matter of cooperation as it is of competition. If an employer wants to survive, it'll need to get along with the workers. That may mean working with the UAW or other employee representation group/union.
OMG!!! You act like UAW workers never got their hands dirty!!! You have serious issues with your screwed up perception of a automobile workers life on the job!!! My father came home smelling like diesel fuel that stunk up the laundry room and his hands scraped, dirty, but hard as stone. I am sure you had times you worked hard and the conditions weren't good but to think your job was so much tougher or harder than UAW, workers throwing car parts around for 12 hours a day with two breaks and a lunch well I'm sorry I don't buy it!!!
From your article. They are speculating and have NO data to support their feelings. Crime data should be very easy to get. When someone gets robbed they call the police and a report is made. So I agree with grbeck no more crime in hard times.
Even though there is no concrete data available to support it, Wilson Police Chief Harry Tyson believes the struggling economy could be a contributing factor in the increase in property crimes across the state and in Wilson.
In CA it may become that way if ignorant Ahnold turns 10,000 prisoners loose for lack of funds. He needs to make a trip to AZ and see how they handle high prison costs effectively. Instead of giving heart and kidney transplants to prisoners ahead of free citizens. Just tell the prisoners the truth. We cannot afford to feed you like you worked at a UAW job.
Steve Jobs saw the Star demo'd during a visit to PARC, loved what he saw, and the rest is history.
Bill Gates must of also like the icon driven menu too. Thats the way it went and today Apple is the king in the IPOD business and also happens to make computers. How did Sony let the Walkman brand get away from them?
Oh, enlightened one, I think you forgot the fact that the arrogance completely blinded all decisions SINCE the '60's particularly the fact that close scrutiny of market forces were completely disregarded to the point all metrics of the D3 and the UAW were set up to fail after the critical point was met in 2007 as gas prices destroyed the model that was a paper tiger based on trucks and SUV's.
Which car company do you suggest for my portfolio?
Oh, enlightened one, please spare this miserable life because I speak economic sense. I throw myself on your Mercy!
All I hear from fools and from sages is the J3 are making profits. Which is it?
Who is telling you this b.s. about them slowing machines down at Delphi?
It is not BS, It is the UAW leaders themselves. The rules say when you have produced a given amount you may go home. Not hardly 8 hours work for 8 hours pay.
The work to rule campaign is already under way. In Flint, one Delphi worker reported that "most in our department and the department that supplies us are doing it." Another worker said that skilled trades and production workers are working to rule together; production workers report small problems, and skilled workers take their time in making the repair.
A GM worker in Flint advised workers to "think of work-to-rule not just as something you're doing now but as a way of life for a unionist. When a younger person comes on my job, I teach them Union 101."
UAW 101, don't make the rest of us look bad by working hard. That is sick, sick, sick. Featherbedding pure and simple. And the major reason Delphi is in Bankruptcy and the UAW losing workers.
OMG!!! You act like UAW workers never got their hands dirty!
What has that got to do with making higher wages than the competition? There are millions of workers in this country that get their hands dirty and are dog tired at the end of the day. They do not make the big bucks the UAW workers get. In fact it makes it harder for them to compete in the market place. To a diesel mechanic in a shop in Los Angeles making $19 per hours with no benefits, the UAW worker is like an executive. It is all a point of reference. You have no real point of reference as you were sheltered from the life style many in this country have. Not everyone in CA drives a BMW and lives in a 5000 sq foot McMansion. There are millions working their butts off to pay the rent. Which is about double what you pay in Michigan. So you should be able to see why the UAW workers wages are not realistic. I don't think anyone here is begrudging them the high pay. I know I was not. That is until they went whining to Congress for myself and the other tax payers to maintain their unsustainable lifestyle.
Which car company do you suggest for my portfolio?
I'll suggest 3: Toyota, Honda and Volkswagen.
All I hear from fools and from sages is the J3 are making profits. Which is it?
Well, TM had it's first loss in 70 years and is responding in kind. I would bet they are the strongest global manufacturer today. Want to wager who returns to profitability first, J3 or D3????
shouldn't we all be willing to help the D3 and UAW live their lifestyles because of that storied history alone? Like the '55 Chevy? The '65 Mustang? The '69 Challenger? All of these great cars and storied history will just go down the drain if we all don't pony up some of our hard-earned wages or retirement benefits of what-have-you to keep them going. Did that tug at anybody's heartstrings?
Looking at this now I am wondering why they were given the money they have to work with right now. I don't see how they're going to recover and be able to turn a profit, much less pay any of this money back during our kids or grandkids lifetimes. Stop the handouts now!
Now to tie it all to the UAW (ha!) - Apple's market share is now around 10%.
...and highly profitable, unlike the D3. Steve knows that the business is there to make a profit. Unlike Wagoner. Apple outsourced its manufacturing years ago.
Perhaps the new D3 or 2 or 1 should be design bureaus in the US who design here and outsource the production to the lowest bidder. Not good for the UAW.
The JD Power article you cite refers to satisfaction with the buying process; it does not speak to the car itself.One bought, satisifaction with the process no longer matters; its the car you are left with.
A simple fact the UAW promoters here seem to miss. Why is the UAW worker any more important than the mechanic technician at the dealership? What has the UAW EVER done for the working man in the dealerships that sell D3 vehicles? If you look at the list below you will see the automakers the UAW once represented. What part did the UAW play in those that are no longer in business? Which ones will they drive into bankruptcy next? * American Motors ** * Chrysler * Ford * General Motors * Hudson Motors ** * Willys ** * Kaiser Motors ** * Studebaker **
>"Unions have had their functional place in our country's history, but unfortunately have abused their power to the extent that it is helped put some US industries out of business here. Look what the steel workers's union did to Youngstown, Ohio and the country's steel industry. Now, it's the US auto industry. "
Good post! That one paragraph pretty much says it all!
>" If an employer wants to survive, it'll need to get along with the workers. That may mean working with the UAW or other employee representation group/union."
Comments
Like the California case in which an OBGYN admitted to a mistake. The tort reform capped his liability. They failed to factor in the cost of this child being raised. 3 million or more will have to be picked up by the taxpayers. There is no free lunch.
That along with the very expensive treatments offered.
Are we aware that $.33 of every dollar is for no value added services by the managed care industry? All the while we belittle the govt, who only cost $.14 of every dollar in the single payer Medicare/Medicaid system.
If as you say the AMA restricts new doctors why the steady stream of foreign doctors going into practice. Are you saying they prefer Indian and Pakistani doctors to US citizen doctors?
This is no secret and one can Google the fact that historically the AMA has limited the supply of doctors coming from American medical schools. The so called "brain drain" occurred in Britain when they socialized medicine. The doctors relocated into America, until they enacted laws.
Lets not forget the drug makers distorting markets either and the barriers put up by Bush in those seeking to buy medication in Canada.
Bottom-line is that they affect all employment here and are a greater harm than the UAW as a special interest. Until this is fixed, the cost of adding the marginal employee will be greater in America and or deter the hiring all together.
The dealer said the entire rack and pinion steering had to be replaced, $800 please.
My friend, first of all you need to know that supply and demand factor into the price. Price is just a rationing mechanism.
Money is many things, a median of exchange and a storer of value. Money has to be portable and hard to duplicate. The purchasing power of money is as important if not more so than any of its traits.
From less overtime to new work rules for skilled trades and fewer cash payouts of all kinds, sweeping changes are likely in store for the CAW members who work for Ford, General Motors and Chrysler."
CAW watching Ford-UAW vote (Windsor Star)
FYI, Rockwell was the prime contractor and now Boeing for the shuttle. Many a union worker (including UAW) labor (both engineering and craft) have gone into the shuttle and space station. Prior to the shuttle disaster, Lockheed had a new design for the shuttle. It was scrubbed. They are now reconsidering. I recall it being called the X33. I could go on to tell you some interesting space knowledge, but Steve wouldn't like that.
http://www.reuther.wayne.edu/collections/hefa_60-i.htm#index_return
The UAW has agreed to see its $600 Christmas bonus suspended; CAW members receive $1,700 at Christmas. The UAW has also agreed to give up lump-sum payouts in lieu of vacation not taken -- a benefit extremely popular with senior CAW members, many of whom take cash payouts rather than take advantage of the full 10.5 weeks of paid time off available to them each year after 20 years seniority.
Our company dropped the Christmas bonus during the horrible 90s. Cheap oil was not good for everyone.
I recall that a spokesman for China said they worked 16 hours a day and 7 days a week. This is a race to the bottom. Working a man/woman ungodly amounts of overtime to save on benefits to next marginal employee does require giving them time off for family/rest.
However, I did see the UAW worker a bit behind the CAW. Then too, I fail to see great savings. In the case that things turn around the UAW retirees medical legacy may come out of this looking like bandits if current market conditions are indeed a buying opportunity for stocks.
http://reuther100.wayne.edu/
Reuther contributed more to the current problems than he did to making a better America. I would argue that Unions did NOT do enough to give the individual incentive to be the best worker they could be. Protecting lousy and lazy workers is not something to brag about in my opinion. Collectively bargaining for competitive wages and benefits is fine. Making rules that inhibit a company from being competitive is regressive. The UAW under Reuther may have been the most regressive Union. Though others are close. So you have Reuther to thank for much of the D3 mess today. I hope he is listening from down below.
It may be. I like to think as one of my favorite writers Jerry Pournelle wrote in the 1970s. We will not be successful till we bring all the countries around US up to our standard of living. It is too late to build walls around the USA. The UAW members will have to accept that they had a good run and it is over. Just like so many companies and businesses before. Do you think the auto makers worried about putting the wagon makers out of business? No different today.
Innovation is not the same as having $billion dollar plants which produce those goods. That would take many years to build.
And you didn't address the fuel issue. Are we going to make that too?
The scenario is:
US turns protectionist
Other countries turn protectionist
US faces loss of critical components
US may want to build them, but in the meantime we suffer greatly
Fuel boycott by OPEC due to US protectionism
Yes, your scenario of living within our own borders works real well.
How silly. You're saying the big 3's problems stem from decisions made over 40 years ago? So it takes 40 years to recover from bad decisions? I think the management is a bit overpaid if it takes them so long to make decisions that benefit the company.
Agility in companies is a competitive advantage and the J3 and even Hyundai know that. Expecting the D3 to take 40 years to recover from decisions-- no wonder they are in the dumper.
One country has natural resources. It also buys SUVs from our UAW autoworkers. The other has only labor to offer. So, hence, there is a difference.
Apple was first to the icon driven menu and it wasn't until the IPOD that they were considered anything more than a niche in the computer market. Certainly they didn't have anywhere near the lions share of the PC or operating system market.
Agility in companies is a competitive advantage and the J3 and even Hyundai know that.
So how do suppose that J3 will be able to over come the competitive advantage China enjoys? What can they do now, to be more than just a niche market? They will not be looking at legacy cost, but rather a much cheaper/leaner labor market.
Likewise, my friend. This is where all the brilliant mind come to discuss issues. Then Steve is there to keep it UAW.
I also recall reading a book back in 1984. Forget the title and or author. But it was claiming all the virtue of Japan as the ideal govt/culture. That was prior to the "Lost Decade", which left them in a condition which we may likely face. Oops, there it is $.01 on Amazon.
The M-Form Society: How American Teamwork Can Recapture the Competitive Edge (Paperback)
We also need to acknowledge the fact that the so called prevailing wage in a society is raised by the unions being there. Certainly the transplants are offering better wages, than if the UAW wasn't present in this nation. The point has been made here that salaried folks in the Big 3 have enjoyed benefits, during the good time, equal if not better benefits than that of the UAW rank and file membership. During these lean days, these have been taken away from the salaried folks as a cost cutting measure. They have claimed this is unfair, however, the UAW did indeed offer them the prospect of representation years ago. At that time they passed on being represented by a collective bargaining unit.
Then the aerospace/defense business was downsized years ago and outsourcing is common in the industry. So most union locals enjoy better relations with management, than that of the auto industry, which has a national agreement covering many plants. Then you have to certainly factor in the skill level of assembly as oppose to the low initial production rates skilled labor. Then most major defense concerns have a larger overseas customer base than that of the auto giants. We see offsets as a method of getting other nations to ante up some defense funding. But, I would agree that there is no where near the artificial wages the industry as oppose to the auto industry. Fact is they have outside contractors doing the floor sweeping and security is also done by sub contractors. Defined pensions are going too as they attempt to match more 401K retirement funds.
I'm in aerospace/defense also and don't see the big picture. Then when I think I see the big picture, its but a small piece of the big puzzle. However, I think the loss of jobs in the industry happened years ago and those big companies in California are a fraction of their size today.
The first computer I remember with a GUI (graphical user interface) was the Xerox STAR (?) which was developed by Xerox's Palo Alto Research Group (PARC) in the early 1980's. They never commercialized the computer, nor did they patent or copyright much/any of the GUI. Steve Jobs saw the Star demo'd during a visit to PARC, loved what he saw, and the rest is history.
Now to tie it all to the UAW (ha!) - Apple's market share is now around 10%.
The trade union market share was 9% in 2000. It might have taken a little bump since then.
The all-time trade union market share was in its heyday in the mid-50, when membership peaked in actual numbers and in market share of around 39%. link.
UAW membership peaked at 1.5 million in 1979 and is now below 500,000 (seems like someone posted even lower current numbers in here once upon a time). (MSNBC).
PARC hasn't gone away - maybe the UAW won't either?
It's just amazing how some people love to take an issue, like the UAW's controversies, and instead of refuting them, spin it to another one.
Unions have had their functional place in our country's history, but unfortunately have abused their power to the extent that it is helped put some US industries out of business here. Look what the steel workers's union did to Youngstown, Ohio and the country's steel industry. Now, it's the US auto industry.
Nothing wrong with that. I even promote shopping the the city I live over other cities.
The only problem is that product quality needs to be better. You have to agree on that DallasDude.
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Well they must of spent their disposable income on something else or had quite a bit in the bank I would think because those steel mills in Gary, were good paying bluecollar jobs back in the day!!!
Then again, I didn't grow up around the "rich" UAW workers. As for cars being better back in the "day". That is complete B.S. There is a reason why the "shade tree" mechanic was coined. Those cars needed extensive maintenance every year in terms of tune ups etc. Rarely did you see a car go 150k miles plus, heck most didn't make it to 100k w/o rusting out or needing a new engine.
The union steel mill jobs paid better than the Big 3 FYI dieselone!!! I agree they weren't as reliable but they were made very well given the time and technology!!!
I had a '71 Mustang convertible in high school. I was lucky to keep it running for 3 mos. at a time. Points, condensers, flaky carburetors, not to mention poor handling, poor brakes, and most of those cars were slow unless they had a big block or a highly tuned small block that hardly ever stayed running right. The only thing those old cars had was distinctive styling and nostalgia.
But the cost vs disposable income your average person had back then was a lot more in line than today. People didn't live on credit back then at least my family didn't!!!
IMO there are only a few bright spots in the 70's and most of those are probably big GM cars. I remember my dad's '73 Torino. At 3 years old and 25k miles, the vinyl roof was peeling, the doors were rusting, and its 302 v8 needed a valve job by 30k miles.
Well 25 years later you had Toyota's with engine sludge thus what's your point??? :confuse:
I also had a 75 Buick Regal coupe with a 350. I remember when my Grandpa gave it to me in '87. He was so proud he had gotten 120k miles out of it. Boy was that a beaut. 150 or so HP and 4000lbs, 15mpg at best, maybe 11 second 0-60. Yep, those were the days. Well it pretty much kept me out of trouble. It was slow and I couldn't afford to drive it much. The only bonus, I was able to put lots of girls in it on Friday nights:)
ROTFLMAO!!! :P
-Rocky
Oh, enlightened one, I think you forgot the fact that the arrogance completely blinded all decisions SINCE the '60's particularly the fact that close scrutiny of market forces were completely disregarded to the point all metrics of the D3 and the UAW were set up to fail after the critical point was met in 2007 as gas prices destroyed the model that was a paper tiger based on trucks and SUV's.
What many people fail to realize is that GM was an anomaly with over 50% of the U.S. auto market. Realistically, that is not how a competitive market operates for very long. It took a special set of circumstances for GM to have that much of a market for that long. Essentially, Europe got blown to hell in WW II and did not have much manufacturing capability in the 50s and 60s, and there was a pent-up demand after the war for everything—along with a bit of protectionism.
What we are seeing now is the continuation of a process in manufacturing that started in the 1970s. Consequently, the escalation of gasoline prices just brought to a head what was bound to happen naturally in time.
No longer can powerful companies such as GM determine what the customer will buy and at what price. The possible future of GM will depend on how well they can supply customers with vehicles they wish to buy at prices they can afford. Those companies that excel at what they do will survive. Those who don’t, well. . . .
IOW, the D3 failed to see those market forces and change to stay competitive and make CARS that people wanted that are friendly to the value proposition craved by the customer as well as beneficial to the environment.
The future looks rather bleak for all parties involved, particularly the poor sods who paid union dues for what will be a blood bath going forward.
Oh, enlightened one, please spare this miserable life because I speak economic sense. I throw myself on your Mercy!
Regards,
OW
-Rocky
Oh yeah???
Economy down, crime up?
http://www.wilsondaily.com/News/Local/Story/Economy-down--crime-up---
Neighborhood watches are on the front lines in bad economy
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/24/neighborhood.watch.economy/index.html
Financial Armageddon
http://www.financialarmageddon.com/2008/06/economy-down-cr.html
-Rocky
I too work for a major defense contractor. 13 years ago, our new president gave the unions I guess what turned out to be an ultimatum. Either they drop some of the work rules and featherbedding, or he would move the manufacturing elsewhere. We already had a printed circuit card assembly place in Texas that had been built in the late 70's. We also had (still have) some facilities in Puerto Rico, so I think they got the message.
Maybe 5 years ago, we installed a PCB assembly area in the plant here, and last year closed down the Texas facility. Difference is that the PCB line is now highly automated. For many of our boards, the (union) workers just have to keep the reels with the parts on them filled up. Some boards require touch labor, but not many. Technicians that do that sort of work (manually wire bond; solder 20 mil lead pitch parts, that sort of stuff) are highly valued.
When I started we had around 15,000 people on site. Most of them were in the manufacturing area. I still remember the rows upon rows of long tables with women at them, hand soldering parts on boards, wiring chassis', etc. Now, we only have around 8,000 people on site, even though the physical plant has expended considerably. The loss has been in the manufacturing area. The number of professionals (engineers) is probably close to what is was 40 years ago, despite the roller-coaster ride of the mergers in the 80's.
We have some other former technicians who, seeing how breadboarding was being done less and less, taught themselves how to use some of our CAD/CAM tools. We use them now for schematic capture and some mechanical design tasks.
Somehow, I can't see any of that being dome in a militant, UAW lead organization. Around here, the workers and the union adapted. Or they would have become extinct. Industrial Darwinism at work.
-Rocky
-Rocky
From your article. They are speculating and have NO data to support their feelings. Crime data should be very easy to get. When someone gets robbed they call the police and a report is made. So I agree with grbeck no more crime in hard times.
Even though there is no concrete data available to support it, Wilson Police Chief Harry Tyson believes the struggling economy could be a contributing factor in the increase in property crimes across the state and in Wilson.
In CA it may become that way if ignorant Ahnold turns 10,000 prisoners loose for lack of funds. He needs to make a trip to AZ and see how they handle high prison costs effectively. Instead of giving heart and kidney transplants to prisoners ahead of free citizens. Just tell the prisoners the truth. We cannot afford to feed you like you worked at a UAW job.
Bill Gates must of also like the icon driven menu too. Thats the way it went and today Apple is the king in the IPOD business and also happens to make computers. How did Sony let the Walkman brand get away from them?
I have to be honest and say the UAW built Cadillac CTS is my ideal/dream car. GPS and Bose make it hard to beat.
Which car company do you suggest for my portfolio?
Oh, enlightened one, please spare this miserable life because I speak economic sense. I throw myself on your Mercy!
All I hear from fools and from sages is the J3 are making profits. Which is it?
It is not BS, It is the UAW leaders themselves. The rules say when you have produced a given amount you may go home. Not hardly 8 hours work for 8 hours pay.
The work to rule campaign is already under way. In Flint, one Delphi worker reported that "most in our department and the department that supplies us are doing it." Another worker said that skilled trades and production workers are working to rule together; production workers report small problems, and skilled workers take their time in making the repair.
A GM worker in Flint advised workers to "think of work-to-rule not just as something you're doing now but as a way of life for a unionist. When a younger person comes on my job, I teach them Union 101."
UAW 101, don't make the rest of us look bad by working hard. That is sick, sick, sick. Featherbedding pure and simple. And the major reason Delphi is in Bankruptcy and the UAW losing workers.
http://labornotes.org/node/7
What has that got to do with making higher wages than the competition? There are millions of workers in this country that get their hands dirty and are dog tired at the end of the day. They do not make the big bucks the UAW workers get. In fact it makes it harder for them to compete in the market place. To a diesel mechanic in a shop in Los Angeles making $19 per hours with no benefits, the UAW worker is like an executive. It is all a point of reference. You have no real point of reference as you were sheltered from the life style many in this country have. Not everyone in CA drives a BMW and lives in a 5000 sq foot McMansion. There are millions working their butts off to pay the rent. Which is about double what you pay in Michigan. So you should be able to see why the UAW workers wages are not realistic. I don't think anyone here is begrudging them the high pay. I know I was not. That is until they went whining to Congress for myself and the other tax payers to maintain their unsustainable lifestyle.
I'll suggest 3: Toyota, Honda and Volkswagen.
All I hear from fools and from sages is the J3 are making profits. Which is it?
Well, TM had it's first loss in 70 years and is responding in kind. I would bet they are the strongest global manufacturer today. Want to wager who returns to profitability first, J3 or D3????
Regards,
OW
Looking at this now I am wondering why they were given the money they have to work with right now. I don't see how they're going to recover and be able to turn a profit, much less pay any of this money back during our kids or grandkids lifetimes. Stop the handouts now!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I'll suggest 3: Toyota, Honda and Volkswagen.
Excellent choices. :sick:
All three were below the industry average of the 2008 J.D. Power Customer Satisfaction Index
...and highly profitable, unlike the D3. Steve knows that the business is there to make a profit. Unlike Wagoner. Apple outsourced its manufacturing years ago.
Perhaps the new D3 or 2 or 1 should be design bureaus in the US who design here and outsource the production to the lowest bidder. Not good for the UAW.
A simple fact the UAW promoters here seem to miss. Why is the UAW worker any more important than the mechanic technician at the dealership? What has the UAW EVER done for the working man in the dealerships that sell D3 vehicles? If you look at the list below you will see the automakers the UAW once represented. What part did the UAW play in those that are no longer in business? Which ones will they drive into bankruptcy next?
* American Motors **
* Chrysler
* Ford
* General Motors
* Hudson Motors **
* Willys **
* Kaiser Motors **
* Studebaker **
** No longer in business.
Good post! That one paragraph pretty much says it all!
Kip
And Visa-Versa
Kip