That isn't what I said. Union workers that made Levi's and made a good wage consumed UAW made cars and the UAW worker consumed Levi Jeans. The Bissell union workers consumed UAW cars and Levi Jeans and the UAW worker and Levi union worker purchased a Bissell vaccum. The Boeing worker purchased UAW made cars, Levi Jeans, Bissell Vaccums and the UAW worker, Levi worker, Bissell worker took trips on Boeing planes. All of these workers made union scale wages and their companies were profitable for years until the greedy globalist poison polluted the minds of a few causing a ripple effect that has destroyed american manufacturing. Anyone who thinks building stuff in a foreign country using slave labor and displacing american workers if I was dictator would be convicted for treason and waterboarded!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
The problem with UAW jobs and 65 years of age is simple. The UAW jobs are more for those with a strong back and a weak mind. It boggles my mind that someone thinks they should retire at 48 years old with enough to live comfortably for life. That is just so unrealistic in this day and age. If I had taken retirement at 48 and paid the $900 per month for health care. I would be taking home about $200 per month. So then I would be looking at a local San Diego job in my field for as little as $15 per hour. Did not make sense then and am I ever thankful I did not succumb to the idea.
My advice which is unlikely to penetrate the ears of a UAW worker would be to start outside training during your short high paid career at the UAW. Then when reality sinks in that you can no longer perform as well at 45 as you did at 25 you will be ahead of the game with a new career more geared to your abilities.
It is obvious that the retirement for UAW workers was modeled after Civil Service jobs. Many of those are 30 years and 80% of your income. It should be quite clear the automakers cannot sustain that kind of ignorance. They do not have the printing press that makes the money. Sadly we keep building up more debt for future generations to shoulder. Last I researched it. $3 trillion of our National debt is owed to the Social Security fund. And we keep stealing more and raising the premiums to those still working. Sounds like GM on a grand scale.
rocky, please don't tell me that we disagree on this one, too...
It depends marsha7!!!
Some people are washed up at that age due to health problems or some are just plain tired. It is a lot different being a anchor from a physical standpoint than throwing around car parts at that age. I personally believe one has worked long enough and should be able to hit the golf ball around at that age or play bingo or cards like some old people. My grandparents worked there butts off for many years and enjoyed traveling, cards, etc. My other grandfather, died a few years after he retired because he worked himself to death thus that is no life either!!! At age 65 marsha7 you might become senial and wear UAW shirts or something!!! :P
The 30 and out was a great plan!!! Hell your elected officials got what 2 years and out with full benefits thus don't tell me UAW workers had it made!!! I need to run for office cuz I couldn't do any worse job than the rebuttal we heard last nite!!! :P
OK, 2! I really think we need one to represent the US industry. Telsa, et al can be niche manufacturers but 1 strong company makes the most sense IMHO.
All of these workers made union scale wages and their companies were profitable for years
How about the majority of workers that did NOT make the fat cat UAW wages? They were trodden down by the high prices of Union made goods. The globalist offered them a TV and a car at a price they could afford. Of course the Union guys wanted in on the cheaper and BETTER TVs offered by Sony and Panasonic, so RCA and Philco had no choice but go to where the labor was cheaper. At the peak of UAW workforce in about 1970, not even 20% of Americans were in a trade Union. That means they were making considerably less and competing for goods with the high paid Union workers. What are the chances that McDonalds or Jack in the Box would ever become Union? It is just crazy to think that an 18 year old handing out $1 burgers would make what an 18 year old born into the UAW would make. You are looking through such a narrow window at reality that you cannot see what those high wages did to all those around them. How about the waitress at your favorite little restaurant. Is she Union making $30 per hour. Yet she probably needs a car to get to work. I wish you could see the negatives caused by Unions.
".....I intend to work easily into my 70s, as I cannot just rock in a rocking chair at age 65..."
Funny thing, Bob, I have the impression that most people would like to "quit" at 55, like 55 is the new 65. I would think that if people saw you walk into a courtroom at 70, they would think that you either didn't plan very well for retirement, or that you need to "get a life".
But on this I can say you are right on the mark. This is what I actually believe stresses companies and pension funds---you work 30 years and think you can collect a pension for 40. Anybody can see that's not how the system was intended to work.
My wife seems hellbent on retiring from Verizon at 49---30 years after she started for them at New England Tel. I think she would be crazy to give up such a high paying job so young, especially since our youngest will be 20, and possibly still in college then, not to mention our oldest is Autistic. If she stayed till 55, I think our quality of life during retirement will be so much better. 60?? Better still.
Alas, it's her peroggative to do so in 8 years. I just wish there would be a way to defer her pension for several years, for I fear if she ( and others like her) do this, then the pension fund may not be there for her 30, 35 years after she retires.
I thought 33 years would be enough for me, and leave at 55 (I'm just 40 now). Now I'm not so sure if that would be the responsible thing to do.
".....My advice which is unlikely to penetrate the ears of a UAW worker would be to start outside training during your short high paid career at the UAW. Then when reality sinks in that you can no longer perform as well at 45 as you did at 25 you will be ahead of the game with a new career more geared to your abilities."
Even at that Gary, how does that help the overall situation? A UAW employee starts at an auto plant at 21 and retires at 51. He follows your advice and say starts working at a funeral parlor at 40 part time and has his undertakers licence by 51, and works there for 15 more years, retiring for good at 66.
The problem is, he STILL collects his UAW pension with (possible fully paid healthcare) at 51!!! Isn't that what stresses pension funds??? The car company is still paying for his healthcare whether or not he works, and that stresses the company budget.
Hell your elected officials got what 2 years and out with full benefits thus don't tell me UAW workers had it made!!!
It is the same as any other pension plan 5 year vesting. Does not mean they get full pay and benefits for life. Though as I said it is not sustainable for a company that does not own the printing press. Why is it so hard to see that GM screwed up giving into those stupid UAW contracts? If as you say GM is making good cars now. Then why are they broke? Simple answer. LEGACY COSTS FOR UAW RETIREES..
By the way. Other governors are looking at that gift horse from the Feds with critical eyes. Including Democrat governors. It is more unsustainable problems for the tax payers. Unemployment was never meant to replace working for a living. It was to keep a pot of beans and bread on the table. And enough gas to go out looking for a job every day. Not going to the Museum and playing with the kids like you are independently wealthy.
The car company is still paying for his healthcare whether or not he works
That is the problem. The US automakers cannot afford to pay health care for life. Your scenario is a good option for a UAW worker. Look at military people retiring after 30 years. They do not get enough to survive. They do have healthcare through the Vets. Many consider that substandard healthcare.
I thought 33 years would be enough for me, and leave at 55 (I'm just 40 now). Now I'm not so sure if that would be the responsible thing to do.
You are thinking clearly. 55 is Ok if you have enough money to make life good. I was always thinking about leaving early. It was just too good paying until my retirement was equal to what I was ending up with. That came at age 63. I'm glad I waited.
The other side of that coin is what your job is. If you are in construction climbing poles every day it may be too hard on the legs to keep going even to 55.
I am sure when the UAW negotiated those contracts they looked at the usable life of the employee doing assembly work. They decided they would be worn out at 30 years and convinced the automakers it was in their best interest to give them a decent retirement with full health benefits. I would also imagine this was done when they had a million UAW workers and going strong. Times change and GM did not keep up with what people wanted and their 50% market share is now about 20%. Less money coming in and more going out. Only real option is to get rid of some of the costs. Or just closing up shop and selling their assets. The UAW seems to prefer pushing GM into bankruptcy.
".....The US automakers cannot afford to pay health care for life."
".....I am sure when the UAW negotiated those contracts they looked at the usable life of the employee doing assembly work. They decided they would be worn out at 30 years and convinced the automakers it was in their best interest to give them a decent retirement with full health benefits."
Lets assume that the second statement is true, that the average assembly worker is only "good for 30 years", just like a lineman. This is where there is a slippery slope. I think it would be in the interest of the 50 year old assemblyman to keep plugging for a few more years, if they can. Back then, i woulod assume that a health plan for a retiree and his wife would be, 15-20% of their entire package, whereas now it's probably closer to 40%. Which begs the question; Why aren't retiree healthcare costs paid for by the pension fund?
At least a broken down lineman could take his bottle of whiskey, toss his leg irons, and limp over to the frame for 10 years and do crosswires, or (gasp!!!) put on a skirt and say "What city please?" :P
The Swedish government doesn’t plan to risk taxpayers’ money on Saab. Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt said Feb. 18 the U.S. company’s demands amounted to a “trap” set to pressure the government into granting aid.
We should learn from others. You cannot fix something that is beyond repair.
Your right, see what kind of health care they have?
Why aren't retiree healthcare costs paid for by the pension fund?
They are now closely watched by the Federal Government. And Health Care is not considered Pension. I think when the new rules went into affect with the PBGC they did not cover any health care. That was about 1990. It was about the time our Teamster pension plan dropped health care for the retirees. So Health care is a contract with the automakers and UAW, that the Feds are not in charge of. So if they dump them they will have lawsuits. That is the reason that C11 is preferable. It will put that monkey on the courts back.
Your right, see what kind of health care they have?
I am sure it is substandard to what the UAW worker has. We had a poster on here a few months ago that came from Sweden for treatment they could not get at home. You keep going back to other countries and their health care. Did you ever think that we don't want to wait 2 years for a hip replacement. Or worse be like Canada where they tried to stop people from coming to the USA to get decent Health Care. What makes you think the Health care being proposed is going to cost you less than what you are currently paying? Or what your company is paying for you? UAW workers would not be happy with most government sponsored Health Care plans. I can guarantee the middle class and especially those with coverage like the UAW will get screwed by a National Health Care plan.
How about the waitress at your favorite little restaurant. Is she Union making $30 per hour.
Yep, she is making a lot more than that!!!! My good friend Amy, who sold cars with me in the past makes $1000-$1500 a week waitressing and wished she would of done this a long time ago!!! :P
As far as the rest of your post goes gagrice, I can't help that a bunch of rebel flag wearing rednecks in the south didn't have enough sense to vote in unions. Some parts of the south are better than others!!! Even back in the old days people had moral values even in the south and paid half-way decent and took care of people that worked for them in the non-union area's.
As I said before it is mind boggling listening to a union man speak the way you do!!! I can see why you take issue with the union stance but why should we have to lower our standard of living down to 3rd world levels. This is america and we should be the beacon of prosperity and lowring ourselves to chinese levels of standard of living is not the way to compete. Make those commies come to our level not vis versa gagrice, and I guess I expect more out of you because you certainly aren't dumb..... but perhaps Rush, is just frying your mind, no? Click him off!!!
If you are thinking collecting unemployment is being wealthy well I have a news flash for you pal!!! I'm not wealthy and I don't get the $360 max!!! My interview went wonderful this morning thus I will find out tomorrow on if I have a job or not at the Chevy dealer!!! If I'm hired it will certainly be the best dealership I've worked for
I worked with plenty of retired soldiers at Pantex....Pantex was a second income for toys and investing thus who is blowing smoke up your tailpipe????.... and yes each of them had healthcare at the VA :confuse:
I would also imagine this was done when they had a million UAW workers and going strong. Times change and GM did not keep up with what people wanted and their 50% market share is now about 20%.
We would of been a lot better off not allowing the Japanese, into this market with imports. If they wanted to build all their cars here using american labor I can say I wouldn't have nearly the problem I do with them but they import 50% and are as anti-union as your local Walley World!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
Not sure what rank of military you think can live on their retirement without another job. Not an enlisted man that retires. They all need a job to survive after they retire from the service. That is what I would expect a 30 year UAW retiree to do. Get a job. If he retirees with 30 years and can afford golfing he gets a lot more retirement than I do after 37 years in the Teamsters. Golf is a game of the rich. Even your UAW Black Lake golf course charges a small fortune to UAW retirees.
The retiree will still pay a premium for this National Health Care program. The only ones that will get it free are the welfare crowd. The warehoused votes are the targets. Not UAW workers or even Walmart workers. Those with any income will be paying guaranteed. Just like the $129 per month I pay for Medicare. I went for the cheapest plan. A lot of people are paying twice what I pay for Medicare. Our pastor and his wife pay $271 each per month for Medicare. They are through Blue shield. No free lunch.
Me? I plan to work and stay physically active as long as I possibly can. I'd go stir crazy if I sat on my butt from 65 on. The only way I'd stop working at such an early age was if I was severely disabled.
Sadly human nature being what it is. You cannot offer FREE health care and not have it abused. As far as the D3 and the UAW are concerned it is not even a factor. Even if GM were able to unload all their healthcare costs onto the government, it would not be enough to turn them around. The question with Health Care is WHO is going to pay. Will it be GM or the UAW workers. Someone is still going to pay for the service. The proposals during the Presidential Campaign put the cost on both corporations and the workers. My guess is it will cost the UAW worker more than he or she currently pays. Some one has to pay for the 46 million that are not covered. And it will not be most of them. So when you UAW folks look in the mirror you will see who is going to pay for yourself and someone that is not covered. Further eroding the middle class income and lifestyle.
The importation of Japanese cars and electronics was like introducing a voracious foreign species to an ecosystem that couldn't handle it. Now, we has an industrial base that is as devastated as a forest subjected to a gypsy moth caterpillar infestation. Well, the Asians pretty much devoured the American forest and will soon have nothing left to eat.
my sister was a waitress and did so well she bought a new Chrysler Sebring for cash.
You and Rocky have made my point very well. Here is what would happen to those two waitresses that are doing very well without the UAW or some other Union. They would be required to pool their tips. The lousy waitresses would get the same amount each shift as the excellent waitresses. I know because that is how it is done in Las Vegas with dealers and service people. That is why my sister moved to Phoenix and works in the Indian Casinos. They get to keep their own tips. She is making 3 times what she made in Vegas.
It sounds like your sister has done very well living the American Dream. Unless the UAW can compete the dream will die. Blaming it on the global economy will not change it. No President in his right mind is going to rock the Global boat. They want to be re-elected.
How can you say we are devastated. You seem to be living the American dream yourself. I can tell you when I was your age not many of my peers could afford two cars with one being a new Cadillac that just sits in the garage for Sunday driving.
Just reading a book about Suburbs. They are talking about the Middle and upper class moving to the outlying areas of New York city to get away from the smelly crowded downtown area. It was during the 1800s and the steam ferry had opened up Brooklyn as a nice place in the country with fresh air. It only took 8 minutes to cross the river. Allowing the middle class to own a nice home in the burbs.
The more I read the more I realize that we have had a strong middle class in this country since we broke with England. The UAW may have helped unskilled labor make the same as the middle class. Giving someone a middle class income does not make them skilled. Only gives them wages equal to the skilled middle class. Now that others are willing to do those low level jobs it is cutting into the artificially high UAW wages. With a growing population it was inevitable.
The current prime example is the new VW plant that is being built in Chatanooga. They have 1000s more applicants than the 2500 positions they are directly offering. There will also be about 14,000 residual jobs as a result of that factory. They will not be as high paying. They will be jobs and will get filled by those willing to work. All in pursuit of the American Dream. It is still there for those willing to search for it and work hard for it. Don't expect the government to hand it to you.
Maybe 40 years ago, folks were washed up at 65, but now???...nobody is washed up at 65, nobody is useless at 65 (I could mention an older UAW was always washed up, just to stay on topic, but that would sound anti-union)...
Hell, I would've retired the day after graduation, if I could have afforded to! :P FWIW, I don't look at retirement as sitting around in a rocking chair watching the cars rust, but look at it as more of a freedom from the daily grind, where you can suddenly do what you want to do, on your own schedule and terms.
My grandparents on my Dad's side of the family retired when they turned 60. That was 1974 for Granddad, and 1975 or 1976, I think, for Grandmom. They still had plenty of life left in them, but just found other stuff to do to occupy their time, other than work. Granddad really didn't get to the point that he just sat around and did nothing until he turned 90, which was when he quit driving. But even then, he was still capable enough to install a new water heater himself (which scares me, because it's heated by natural gas!), and it was just in the past few years that we finally convinced him to stop going up on the roof to clean off the branches and such...mainly because when you're in your 90's, falling off a roof is going to hurt a bit more than when you're in your 30's! :surprise: Grandmom died in 1994, but it came on quickly, so most of her retirement was pretty good. And Granddad's still kicking, at 94. So he's gotten over 34 years out of retirement.
On my Mom's side, Granddad retired in late 1971, at the age of 55. Grandmom started taking a lot more time off, so they could travel, but did keep working through the end of 1980, which would have put her at 56. And then she went back to work part time, not because she had to, but because she wanted to. She finally gave it up totally in 1994, when she turned 70.
Granddad had plenty to keep himself busy, working on cars, taking care of a fairly large garden, doing projects around the house, plus taking care of a rental property.
He died in April 1990, at the age of 73. So he got about 18 years out of retirement. And again, most of it was good, as he thankfully went fast. As for Grandmom, she'll turn 85 on Saturday.
She has a cousin who retired in 1980, from the gov't, at the age of 55. I swear that woman, at the age of 84, is more of a partier than many college frat-boys! Retirement was definitely good for her. She has plenty to keep herself busy, with friends, travelling, hosting big parties at her house where she insists on doing EVERYTHING, etc.
Now in the case of my relatives, they all had pensions coming in. Grandmom and Granddad on my Mom's side, as well as Grandmom's cousin, were all Federal employees. On my Dad's side, Grandmom and Granddad both worked for the railroad. They also all had something else, that most people don't have today. Houses that were paid off, in full! Although my grandmother's cousin did take out a loan in 1971 to put in a cee-ment pond, and has done a lot of renovation to the house over the years.
Bob Schieffer, host of face the nation (CBS???) is 72...why can't he continue on if he wants to???...OK, he may not be as attractive as a Fox News or CNN anchor, but who cares???
rock: "At age 65 marsha7 you might become senial and wear UAW shirts or something"...rock, if you EVER catch me with a UAW shirt, you have my permission to send me to Gitmo and "torture" me by putting panties on my head...
cooter: I guess what I mean is that well thru-out the 60s, 70s, and 80s, we were just brainwashed that we were "done" at 65, sit back and retire...also, women were washed up at 40 (only young female actresses, except for a grand few like Liz Taylor)...now, we have all those female hotties in their 60s and they still look sharp, and the "barrier" of 65 is a worthless barrier, IMO...the world does not stop at 65, at least in my opinion...at long as my mind functions, I can practice law...now, whether the mind DOES function is another story...
I guess I see it like Warren Buffett, but I don't have his money...I think he is 80-plus, and still goes to the office every day...
Now if one is disabled, that may be different, but at that point, the age of 65 is less than meaningless, as the disability is the main factor, regardless of age...
I also do not see anything wrong with walking (hopefully under my own power) into the courtroom at age 70...who there is going to know my actual age, anyway???...I may look 85 and I may look 60 when I am 70...maybe my looks will give the impression of wisdom...
Hell, if I won the Lotto tomorrow I would not stop working...taking a 7 day vacation now drives me nuts by the 5th day...I work all year for a one week vacation, and when I finally get it, I cut it short so I can get back to work...
Besides, if everyone retires at 65, who will greet me when I walk into Wal-Mart???
E8 retirees can live comfortable in most area's of the U.S. except places like San Diego, a city for the wealthy in america!!!! ....and also anyone that has any sense can retire at that level as a Sgt. Major and make it quite comfortable!!!
The UAW may have helped unskilled labor make the same as the middle class.
All in pursuit of the American Dream Nightmare.
An implicit promise of middle class life for its remedial students, yes...it's over?
The US will still have a great professional caste, living the global dream. The graduates of top schools, in key areas, will live quite fine. They will enter productive corporations, and help generate great revenue, which they will get a handsome piece of.
It's the rest who are in trouble. The bad students in school, the felons, the moderately talented...all of them will face a paradigm shift. Their services will be less and less needed (at its current price points), as a globalized supply of labor competes with them. The wealthy professional caste (and the simply wealthy) will prefer to buy goods at its best price/best quality. This will usually entail imports.
The masses in the US will see competition unlike anything over the past 50-60 years, and that will have to lead to significant behavior modification. The promise of the american dream is kind of over.
I ask you if the owners of pro teams are worthy of welfare? Stadiums/arenas paid for with tax money? Just how do you suppose they EARNED this freebie?
The more I read the more I realize that we have had a strong middle class in this country since we broke with England.
You can't be serious? Indentured servants aren't considered middle class, no more than slaves/tenant farmers of the New World.
The masses in the US will see competition unlike anything over the past 50-60 years, and that will have to lead to significant behavior modification. The promise of the american dream is kind of over.
I agree. The unskilled and uneducated will have to work harder to maintain a decent lifestyle. The bottom half of the workforce currently pays only 3.6% of the total income tax. Those are the unskilled that were not lucky enough to be born into the UAW.
I ask you if the owners of pro teams are worthy of welfare?
No and I get steamed every time I think how the Chargers and Padres have raped San Diego tax payers. Pro sports are a HUGE waste of tax payers money. Whether it is the deduction for season tickets or guaranteeing a full stadium as San Diego has done. One of the few issues we agree on. Most is payoffs by politicians.
Indentured servants aren't considered middle class,
Nor were slaves. There was a huge middle class in the cities of NY, Chicago, Philadelphia and Boston as well as others. Long before the UAW was formed. They were shop owners and merchants. Skilled people making everything from shoes to hats. With your extensive college education I know you are aware of the formation of the suburbs of NYC, Boston and Philadelphia in the early 1800s. Most were middle class people wanting to escape the filth of the cities. Pretty much as it is today.
The Railway Unions were strong in the late 1890s started by a Marxist just as the UAW's Reuther. You can look at that and see the slow degradation of the true middle class in this country. I think the best way to describe making a middle class worker with an unskilled laborer is the same as trying to make a silk purse from a Sow's ear.
You are being led down the primrose path my friend.
That will not be anytime soon with all the blantent spending going on in Washington. Our unborn grandchildren will be paying and paying and paying for OUR bills. The new adminastration is betting on a 5% improvement over the next 5 years... NO ECONEMY ON EARTH HAS EVER SEEN THAT KIND OF EXPANSION EVER. (Not even China in their "boom" years)
Have you noticed that EVERY time the new president speaks, the market tumbles another 100 points or so? He is not saying anything that will actually improve things.
Many experts are now saying that the rosy econemy we experienced for the past decade or so was mostly riding on CREDIT. The more they look into the banking-system, the more they realize we were all duped. We will all be in dire-straits for at least the next 5-10 years.
The new adminastration is betting on a 5% improvement over the next 5 years...
Amazing nerve! This is exactly what the Republicans did. They borrowed many times as much for tax cuts going almost completely for short term consumption, massively focused on the rich.
The Democratic borrowing is far smaller and half of it is for high return projects that are far more than worth it for our children, that our children will benefit from throughout their lives, in basic scientific and medical research, education, alternative energy, infrastructure, etc., not $5,000 suits, $500 meals, and $300,000 cars as with the Republicans.
The Republicans have chosen the rightarded road again, They will keep their base and hope that the rest of America can be dumbed down to the level of that base. Their strategy is simple. They cannot be held accountable for their theories because they are no longer in power. They can continue to tell everyone that if the government cuts spending then the private sector will save the world. They know they can make the American public forget that they had the chance to do that with control of the Congress for 12 years from 1995 until 2007. And now they say "We're sorry. We lost our way, and if you just help us fight Obama and keep him from succeeding then we will do much better next time. We also have some good 'bottom land' we can sell you in Louisiana".
Ya gotta admire the gall.
Hang on - it will be a bumpy ride.
Just in case some of you were not fully familiar with the quality of educational life in the great state of La., check out these up-to-date reports from the Pew Charitable Trust. Mr. Jindal's state ranks at the bottom of every measure of performance for an educational system. He's in charge of a state that virtually breeds developmental diabilities and he wants the country to follow his lead. Chutzpah to the Nth degree.
Scroll to the bottom of that report for the data sets which show clearly that La. is not the place to be if you want your kids to receive an education.
It's the rest who are in trouble. The bad students in school, the felons, the moderately talented...all of them will face a paradigm shift.
Oh gosh, I should be hoping our society provides for bad students and felons - what a tragedy that we might have a merit-based society. You know, mother nature is horrible, as the weak don't do as well. We should change that.
How is someone with your mentality that all factory workers are undeserving of a livable wage suppose to afford you or are they just suppose to take out a loan and pass it on to their kids as another debt.....What we have learned under your perfect world of so-called unskilled labor and how worthless they are is anyone making more than $8 bucks an hour has a serious threat that their job might be outsourced in this global economy. America, is now weaker than ever. Consumer spending is at a record low and if you think some guy working in the automobile industry is making too much money well so are doctors, lawyers, insurance salesman, realtors, drug companies. I think UAW workers like most people would be fine with taking a pay cut as long as the cost of living would come in-line. Some slob making $8 an/hr. isn't going to buy a car or be able to afford an attorney. This continued beating the bluecollar worker down will affect everyone. If it didn't then why isn't the economy rolling??? Why did only 10 million cars get sold. why are retail sales down everywhere and every business is laying off or closing it's doors if this global economy is so freaken perfect???? Taxes as in state and federal aren't generated if people aren't consuming. Why aren't people consuming in your perfect free-market world??? I thought this was the fool proof golden eutopia you wanted??? :surprise:
The median income of a worker in this country is about $40K. The average person would be nowhere near being able to afford a new car, if there wasn't globalization. In your world, only the wealthier would be driving?
Incorrect!!! In my world we would have competition from inside our borders. If the foreign nameplates wanted to compete here well they better build it here or be tariffed. Many small businesses never get a chance form, grow, propsper, because some Chinamen, is doing the job cheaper which has cost the U.S. government Trillions of dollars in lost revenue. The U.S. had little competition from outside forces from 1900's-1970 and I hear you old timers talk about how great those cars were given the limited technology of that era. Did the rich only drive back then??? Everyone in my family even my ancient great grandma, great uncles, aunts, had nice cars back in the old days and were able to afford a new car every so many years and they usually had a pre-owned one also. The bottom line is their is always going to be someone who says they can do the job cheaper so we should fire all the U.S. farmers and grow all our food in China. Build our cars in China and India. Need a doctor call India, need a nuclear warhead call North Korea, because it's all about the buck, right??? Who gives a rats [non-permissible content removed] on the ripple affects!!! Screw your neighbor and country is the entitlement attitude of the pseudo-capitalist and that is exactly why this country is in the shape it's in!!! :sick:
I also lived during those supposedly "GOOD OLD DAYS". The US industrial age peaked during WW2. It has gone global ever since that time. We became the World's cop so to speak. We rebuilt countries torn by WW2 and gave them a place to sell their products.
Who allowed that???
We rebuilt countries torn by WW2 and gave them a place to sell their products. We in turn sold them our products. Sadly your grandparents only saw the auto industry as important and were oblivious to what was going on outside the UAW world they lived in. The average American had it a LOT tougher in the 1950s and 60s and 70s than the picture that has been painted in your mind.
Hawg Wash!!! Anyone who wanted a good job during that era could get one even if you were unskilled they would invest in you!!! The problem was everyone wanted a suit and tie job in that era and thought they were to good to get their hands dirty and that kind of a job was below them. Don't worry gagrice your dream world of non-union, capitalism is here!!! I will feel sorry for your kids when the ripple hits them and we go on a rampage of the bottom line is the buck and your grandkids will point the finger at your generation and ask why did your generation grandpa sell us down the river??? You know that question is coming thus I'm sure you have some time to prepare a rebuttal!!! They might be able to go to a library and blow the dust off of some prehistoric history book that spoke about the UAW and Teamster union and how they faught for workers rights (since workers in the future won't have none) and a fair standard of living for the working class in this country. I feel sorry for the next generation because there minds have been poisoned by the right-wing media outlets like Rush, that unions are bad and there company is going to take care of them!!! :sick:
The retiree will still pay a premium for this National Health Care program. The only ones that will get it free are the welfare crowd.
Well that is goingto be 80% of americans if we stay on this road!!!! :sick:
The warehoused votes are the targets. Not UAW workers or even Walmart workers. Those with any income will be paying guaranteed. Just like the $129 per month I pay for Medicare. I went for the cheapest plan. A lot of people are paying twice what I pay for Medicare.
True, but the serfs in your golden capitalist society like former UAW workers won't have any income to speak of thus they won't be affected by the higher premiums that you pay.
Our pastor and his wife pay $271 each per month for Medicare. They are through Blue shield. No free lunch.
You mean the "Tax Shield" occupation??? That is a joke. I guess UAW, workers should all start churches and pay no tax to society but reap all the benefits. :confuse:
actually, your Company will take care of you if you take care of their responsibilities to the "buyer" of the goods or services you are hired to perform. Truedat?
Your Union just wants your loyalty and dues. If a Company decides they want to get rid of you or a segment of the Company with you in it they'll do just that. I know this is true having worked 20 years at a Union job for The Boeing Company. And it's not that they were trimming the waste-workers off. 19 of the 21 people in my Tech.Illustrator-Eng. group were let go within about a 6 month period between 2002 and 2003.
Do a good job and treat customers you provide services for and you can still get a good paycheck in America. Unions are not necessary. With a Union your voice is not heard, instead you do as everyone else mandates collectively.
Scary way to do business. Look where it got the UAW's, rockford. A hard and nasty ride down the toilet. Almost, anyway. And rock, that is not my wish. I would prefer Ford, Chrysler and GM to remain in automotive manufacturing. Doing what they've done for a century. The 1960's remain my favorite decade in automotive manufacturing. My first car, a '65 Ford Mustang, remains my Detroit favorite. But my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS has proven to be right alongside my old Mustang as a car that I love and respect. Those two rigs just get my motor running the mostest.
The worldwide marketplace has crushed that dream and idea, that one of continued mastery of the marketplace that Detroit enjoyed for so long. You can't just place the blame on Clinton and his NAFTA. The Union has not been able to save the dream, in fact, in GM, Ford and Chrysler's case they have helped hamstring them.
Now, if your Company is not making a profit, you're in trouble. If the hospital I work at started paying out more than they take in, I could be let go. Your idea of putting an eastern Indian in my job is a nice try but it's not happening. If we start going in to the red several of us will be toast.
I could take some of my skills and open up my own mobile medical clinic, too, like sleep studies. I could buy an RV and travel and do "mobile" sleep studies. Our new CEO found out through a sleep study that he needs to wear a CPAP mask at night, with no supplemental oxygen required. Classic obstructive sleep apnea, it show up on the tracings pretty clearly and 70-80% of the time people get a sleep study the diagnosis is that they have OSA(obstructive sleep apnea). And they need to wear CPAP while sleeping. The upside is that they wake up 6-8 hours later feeling much better. Refreshed and feeling good in the morning. The anatomy of their tongue and oropharanx is such that when they lay down at night their tongue at rest smashes in to the back of their throat and they can't get enough oxygen to nourish their body and brain. They "desat" and are starved for oxygen, and then must "gasp" for air. This goes on all night long. When they wake up they feel tired, still. Their body's pH is not lined up properly and they didn't get the rest they needed during the night. I mean as good as "conditions" can be for them, at the age they are and with all of their other medical problems (if they have any) taken in to consideration. So, our CEO is a walking adverstisement as to the wisdom of getting people tested for OSA. It's a growing field that people are willing to pay money for to get themselves fixed so they can sleep at night, all night long.
It is so important for their physical and emotional well-being. Yes, it is true that I am just learning this skill, so, if I get a pink slip in the next two years I won't really feel comfortable working independently. Need more experience. But believe me I have thought of this. Probably too much expense to do regular Respiratory Therapies in my own place, but doing sleep studies is extremely lucrative. If I am my own boss there will be no eastern Indian or Filipino working my job and providing my service. I will run my own show, or, my Boss and I could open our own clinic up together.
As we both learn sleep medicine this is a possibility, though, working for hospitals is probably what will still be our norm until retirement. rock, I know that the trend is to outsource, but I don't see it happening in healthcare now. I believe there are ways to make ourselves valuable even with that threat looming.
It's in what you have to offer to the patient and consumer, it has to make financial sense to them and be convenient for them. And you have to technically do the tests accurately, keep in communication with the doctors in your community, and treat patients with dignity and respect.
Sorry, rockford, I just don't feel that "shaking in me boots" feel that the aerospace industry ails upon a person.
Comments
-carbufffan
My advice which is unlikely to penetrate the ears of a UAW worker would be to start outside training during your short high paid career at the UAW. Then when reality sinks in that you can no longer perform as well at 45 as you did at 25 you will be ahead of the game with a new career more geared to your abilities.
It is obvious that the retirement for UAW workers was modeled after Civil Service jobs. Many of those are 30 years and 80% of your income. It should be quite clear the automakers cannot sustain that kind of ignorance. They do not have the printing press that makes the money. Sadly we keep building up more debt for future generations to shoulder. Last I researched it. $3 trillion of our National debt is owed to the Social Security fund. And we keep stealing more and raising the premiums to those still working. Sounds like GM on a grand scale.
It depends marsha7!!!
Some people are washed up at that age due to health problems or some are just plain tired. It is a lot different being a anchor from a physical standpoint than throwing around car parts at that age. I personally believe one has worked long enough and should be able to hit the golf ball around at that age or play bingo or cards like some old people. My grandparents worked there butts off for many years and enjoyed traveling, cards, etc. My other grandfather, died a few years after he retired because he worked himself to death thus that is no life either!!! At age 65 marsha7 you might become senial and wear UAW shirts or something!!! :P
-Rocky
-Rocky
Ford with all the remnants would be a good thing.
Regards,
OW
How about the majority of workers that did NOT make the fat cat UAW wages? They were trodden down by the high prices of Union made goods. The globalist offered them a TV and a car at a price they could afford. Of course the Union guys wanted in on the cheaper and BETTER TVs offered by Sony and Panasonic, so RCA and Philco had no choice but go to where the labor was cheaper. At the peak of UAW workforce in about 1970, not even 20% of Americans were in a trade Union. That means they were making considerably less and competing for goods with the high paid Union workers. What are the chances that McDonalds or Jack in the Box would ever become Union? It is just crazy to think that an 18 year old handing out $1 burgers would make what an 18 year old born into the UAW would make. You are looking through such a narrow window at reality that you cannot see what those high wages did to all those around them. How about the waitress at your favorite little restaurant. Is she Union making $30 per hour. Yet she probably needs a car to get to work. I wish you could see the negatives caused by Unions.
Funny thing, Bob, I have the impression that most people would like to "quit" at 55, like 55 is the new 65. I would think that if people saw you walk into a courtroom at 70, they would think that you either didn't plan very well for retirement, or that you need to "get a life".
But on this I can say you are right on the mark. This is what I actually believe stresses companies and pension funds---you work 30 years and think you can collect a pension for 40. Anybody can see that's not how the system was intended to work.
My wife seems hellbent on retiring from Verizon at 49---30 years after she started for them at New England Tel. I think she would be crazy to give up such a high paying job so young, especially since our youngest will be 20, and possibly still in college then, not to mention our oldest is Autistic. If she stayed till 55, I think our quality of life during retirement will be so much better. 60?? Better still.
Alas, it's her peroggative to do so in 8 years. I just wish there would be a way to defer her pension for several years, for I fear if she ( and others like her) do this, then the pension fund may not be there for her 30, 35 years after she retires.
I thought 33 years would be enough for me, and leave at 55 (I'm just 40 now). Now I'm not so sure if that would be the responsible thing to do.
Even at that Gary, how does that help the overall situation? A UAW employee starts at an auto plant at 21 and retires at 51. He follows your advice and say starts working at a funeral parlor at 40 part time and has his undertakers licence by 51, and works there for 15 more years, retiring for good at 66.
The problem is, he STILL collects his UAW pension with (possible fully paid healthcare) at 51!!! Isn't that what stresses pension funds??? The car company is still paying for his healthcare whether or not he works, and that stresses the company budget.
It is the same as any other pension plan 5 year vesting. Does not mean they get full pay and benefits for life. Though as I said it is not sustainable for a company that does not own the printing press. Why is it so hard to see that GM screwed up giving into those stupid UAW contracts? If as you say GM is making good cars now. Then why are they broke? Simple answer. LEGACY COSTS FOR UAW RETIREES..
By the way. Other governors are looking at that gift horse from the Feds with critical eyes. Including Democrat governors. It is more unsustainable problems for the tax payers. Unemployment was never meant to replace working for a living. It was to keep a pot of beans and bread on the table. And enough gas to go out looking for a job every day. Not going to the Museum and playing with the kids like you are independently wealthy.
That is the problem. The US automakers cannot afford to pay health care for life. Your scenario is a good option for a UAW worker. Look at military people retiring after 30 years. They do not get enough to survive. They do have healthcare through the Vets. Many consider that substandard healthcare.
You are thinking clearly. 55 is Ok if you have enough money to make life good. I was always thinking about leaving early. It was just too good paying until my retirement was equal to what I was ending up with. That came at age 63. I'm glad I waited.
The other side of that coin is what your job is. If you are in construction climbing poles every day it may be too hard on the legs to keep going even to 55.
I am sure when the UAW negotiated those contracts they looked at the usable life of the employee doing assembly work. They decided they would be worn out at 30 years and convinced the automakers it was in their best interest to give them a decent retirement with full health benefits. I would also imagine this was done when they had a million UAW workers and going strong. Times change and GM did not keep up with what people wanted and their 50% market share is now about 20%. Less money coming in and more going out. Only real option is to get rid of some of the costs. Or just closing up shop and selling their assets. The UAW seems to prefer pushing GM into bankruptcy.
".....I am sure when the UAW negotiated those contracts they looked at the usable life of the employee doing assembly work. They decided they would be worn out at 30 years and convinced the automakers it was in their best interest to give them a decent retirement with full health benefits."
Lets assume that the second statement is true, that the average assembly worker is only "good for 30 years", just like a lineman. This is where there is a slippery slope. I think it would be in the interest of the 50 year old assemblyman to keep plugging for a few more years, if they can. Back then, i woulod assume that a health plan for a retiree and his wife would be, 15-20% of their entire package, whereas now it's probably closer to 40%. Which begs the question; Why aren't retiree healthcare costs paid for by the pension fund?
At least a broken down lineman could take his bottle of whiskey, toss his leg irons, and limp over to the frame for 10 years and do crosswires, or (gasp!!!) put on a skirt and say "What city please?" :P
We should learn from others. You cannot fix something that is beyond repair.
Your right, see what kind of health care they have?
They are now closely watched by the Federal Government. And Health Care is not considered Pension. I think when the new rules went into affect with the PBGC they did not cover any health care. That was about 1990. It was about the time our Teamster pension plan dropped health care for the retirees. So Health care is a contract with the automakers and UAW, that the Feds are not in charge of. So if they dump them they will have lawsuits. That is the reason that C11 is preferable. It will put that monkey on the courts back.
I am sure it is substandard to what the UAW worker has. We had a poster on here a few months ago that came from Sweden for treatment they could not get at home. You keep going back to other countries and their health care. Did you ever think that we don't want to wait 2 years for a hip replacement. Or worse be like Canada where they tried to stop people from coming to the USA to get decent Health Care. What makes you think the Health care being proposed is going to cost you less than what you are currently paying? Or what your company is paying for you? UAW workers would not be happy with most government sponsored Health Care plans. I can guarantee the middle class and especially those with coverage like the UAW will get screwed by a National Health Care plan.
Yep, she is making a lot more than that!!!! My good friend Amy, who sold cars with me in the past makes $1000-$1500 a week waitressing and wished she would of done this a long time ago!!! :P
As far as the rest of your post goes gagrice, I can't help that a bunch of rebel flag wearing rednecks in the south didn't have enough sense to vote in unions. Some parts of the south are better than others!!! Even back in the old days people had moral values even in the south and paid half-way decent and took care of people that worked for them in the non-union area's.
As I said before it is mind boggling listening to a union man speak the way you do!!! I can see why you take issue with the union stance but why should we have to lower our standard of living down to 3rd world levels. This is america and we should be the beacon of prosperity and lowring ourselves to chinese levels of standard of living is not the way to compete. Make those commies come to our level not vis versa gagrice, and I guess I expect more out of you because you certainly aren't dumb..... but perhaps Rush, is just frying your mind, no? Click him off!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
We would of been a lot better off not allowing the Japanese, into this market with imports. If they wanted to build all their cars here using american labor I can say I wouldn't have nearly the problem I do with them but they import 50% and are as anti-union as your local Walley World!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
-Rocky
Well it's looking like they aren't going to have any thus a national plan is better than no plan!!!
-Rocky
Income redistribution is the goal underneath all the foofoo talk on the surface. Check your carspace email.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You and Rocky have made my point very well. Here is what would happen to those two waitresses that are doing very well without the UAW or some other Union. They would be required to pool their tips. The lousy waitresses would get the same amount each shift as the excellent waitresses. I know because that is how it is done in Las Vegas with dealers and service people. That is why my sister moved to Phoenix and works in the Indian Casinos. They get to keep their own tips. She is making 3 times what she made in Vegas.
It sounds like your sister has done very well living the American Dream. Unless the UAW can compete the dream will die. Blaming it on the global economy will not change it. No President in his right mind is going to rock the Global boat. They want to be re-elected.
Just reading a book about Suburbs. They are talking about the Middle and upper class moving to the outlying areas of New York city to get away from the smelly crowded downtown area. It was during the 1800s and the steam ferry had opened up Brooklyn as a nice place in the country with fresh air. It only took 8 minutes to cross the river. Allowing the middle class to own a nice home in the burbs.
The more I read the more I realize that we have had a strong middle class in this country since we broke with England. The UAW may have helped unskilled labor make the same as the middle class. Giving someone a middle class income does not make them skilled. Only gives them wages equal to the skilled middle class. Now that others are willing to do those low level jobs it is cutting into the artificially high UAW wages. With a growing population it was inevitable.
The current prime example is the new VW plant that is being built in Chatanooga. They have 1000s more applicants than the 2500 positions they are directly offering. There will also be about 14,000 residual jobs as a result of that factory. They will not be as high paying. They will be jobs and will get filled by those willing to work. All in pursuit of the American Dream. It is still there for those willing to search for it and work hard for it. Don't expect the government to hand it to you.
Hell, I would've retired the day after graduation, if I could have afforded to! :P FWIW, I don't look at retirement as sitting around in a rocking chair watching the cars rust, but look at it as more of a freedom from the daily grind, where you can suddenly do what you want to do, on your own schedule and terms.
My grandparents on my Dad's side of the family retired when they turned 60. That was 1974 for Granddad, and 1975 or 1976, I think, for Grandmom. They still had plenty of life left in them, but just found other stuff to do to occupy their time, other than work. Granddad really didn't get to the point that he just sat around and did nothing until he turned 90, which was when he quit driving. But even then, he was still capable enough to install a new water heater himself (which scares me, because it's heated by natural gas!), and it was just in the past few years that we finally convinced him to stop going up on the roof to clean off the branches and such...mainly because when you're in your 90's, falling off a roof is going to hurt a bit more than when you're in your 30's! :surprise: Grandmom died in 1994, but it came on quickly, so most of her retirement was pretty good. And Granddad's still kicking, at 94. So he's gotten over 34 years out of retirement.
On my Mom's side, Granddad retired in late 1971, at the age of 55. Grandmom started taking a lot more time off, so they could travel, but did keep working through the end of 1980, which would have put her at 56. And then she went back to work part time, not because she had to, but because she wanted to. She finally gave it up totally in 1994, when she turned 70.
Granddad had plenty to keep himself busy, working on cars, taking care of a fairly large garden, doing projects around the house, plus taking care of a rental property.
He died in April 1990, at the age of 73. So he got about 18 years out of retirement. And again, most of it was good, as he thankfully went fast. As for Grandmom, she'll turn 85 on Saturday.
She has a cousin who retired in 1980, from the gov't, at the age of 55. I swear that woman, at the age of 84, is more of a partier than many college frat-boys! Retirement was definitely good for her. She has plenty to keep herself busy, with friends, travelling, hosting big parties at her house where she insists on doing EVERYTHING, etc.
Now in the case of my relatives, they all had pensions coming in. Grandmom and Granddad on my Mom's side, as well as Grandmom's cousin, were all Federal employees. On my Dad's side, Grandmom and Granddad both worked for the railroad. They also all had something else, that most people don't have today. Houses that were paid off, in full! Although my grandmother's cousin did take out a loan in 1971 to put in a cee-ment pond, and has done a lot of renovation to the house over the years.
ROTFLOL - just cracked me up!
cooter: I guess what I mean is that well thru-out the 60s, 70s, and 80s, we were just brainwashed that we were "done" at 65, sit back and retire...also, women were washed up at 40 (only young female actresses, except for a grand few like Liz Taylor)...now, we have all those female hotties in their 60s and they still look sharp, and the "barrier" of 65 is a worthless barrier, IMO...the world does not stop at 65, at least in my opinion...at long as my mind functions, I can practice law...now, whether the mind DOES function is another story...
I guess I see it like Warren Buffett, but I don't have his money...I think he is 80-plus, and still goes to the office every day...
Now if one is disabled, that may be different, but at that point, the age of 65 is less than meaningless, as the disability is the main factor, regardless of age...
I also do not see anything wrong with walking (hopefully under my own power) into the courtroom at age 70...who there is going to know my actual age, anyway???...I may look 85 and I may look 60 when I am 70...maybe my looks will give the impression of wisdom...
Hell, if I won the Lotto tomorrow I would not stop working...taking a 7 day vacation now drives me nuts by the 5th day...I work all year for a one week vacation, and when I finally get it, I cut it short so I can get back to work...
Besides, if everyone retires at 65, who will greet me when I walk into Wal-Mart???
Until then, hope you get the nod!
Regards,
OW
-Rocky
All in pursuit of the American
DreamNightmare.An implicit promise of middle class life for its remedial students, yes...it's over?
The US will still have a great professional caste, living the global dream. The graduates of top schools, in key areas, will live quite fine. They will enter productive corporations, and help generate great revenue, which they will get a handsome piece of.
It's the rest who are in trouble. The bad students in school, the felons, the moderately talented...all of them will face a paradigm shift. Their services will be less and less needed (at its current price points), as a globalized supply of labor competes with them. The wealthy professional caste (and the simply wealthy) will prefer to buy goods at its best price/best quality. This will usually entail imports.
The masses in the US will see competition unlike anything over the past 50-60 years, and that will have to lead to significant behavior modification. The promise of the american dream is kind of over.
I ask you if the owners of pro teams are worthy of welfare? Stadiums/arenas paid for with tax money? Just how do you suppose they EARNED this freebie?
The more I read the more I realize that we have had a strong middle class in this country since we broke with England.
You can't be serious? Indentured servants aren't considered middle class, no more than slaves/tenant farmers of the New World.
I agree. The unskilled and uneducated will have to work harder to maintain a decent lifestyle. The bottom half of the workforce currently pays only 3.6% of the total income tax. Those are the unskilled that were not lucky enough to be born into the UAW.
I ask you if the owners of pro teams are worthy of welfare?
No and I get steamed every time I think how the Chargers and Padres have raped San Diego tax payers. Pro sports are a HUGE waste of tax payers money. Whether it is the deduction for season tickets or guaranteeing a full stadium as San Diego has done. One of the few issues we agree on. Most is payoffs by politicians.
Indentured servants aren't considered middle class,
Nor were slaves. There was a huge middle class in the cities of NY, Chicago, Philadelphia and Boston as well as others. Long before the UAW was formed. They were shop owners and merchants. Skilled people making everything from shoes to hats. With your extensive college education I know you are aware of the formation of the suburbs of NYC, Boston and Philadelphia in the early 1800s. Most were middle class people wanting to escape the filth of the cities. Pretty much as it is today.
The Railway Unions were strong in the late 1890s started by a Marxist just as the UAW's Reuther. You can look at that and see the slow degradation of the true middle class in this country. I think the best way to describe making a middle class worker with an unskilled laborer is the same as trying to make a silk purse from a Sow's ear.
You are being led down the primrose path my friend.
That will not be anytime soon with all the blantent spending going on in Washington. Our unborn grandchildren will be paying and paying and paying for OUR bills. The new adminastration is betting on a 5% improvement over the next 5 years... NO ECONEMY ON EARTH HAS EVER SEEN THAT KIND OF EXPANSION EVER. (Not even China in their "boom" years)
Have you noticed that EVERY time the new president speaks, the market tumbles another 100 points or so? He is not saying anything that will actually improve things.
Many experts are now saying that the rosy econemy we experienced for the past decade or so was mostly riding on CREDIT. The more they look into the banking-system, the more they realize we were all duped. We will all be in dire-straits for at least the next 5-10 years.
Hang on - it will be a bumpy ride.
OH--- and it is not all the UAWs fault
Amazing nerve! This is exactly what the Republicans did. They borrowed many times as much for tax cuts going almost completely for short term consumption, massively focused on the rich.
The Democratic borrowing is far smaller and half of it is for high return projects that are far more than worth it for our children, that our children will benefit from throughout their lives, in basic scientific and medical research, education, alternative energy, infrastructure, etc., not $5,000 suits, $500 meals, and $300,000 cars as with the Republicans.
The Republicans have chosen the rightarded road again, They will keep their base and hope that the rest of America can be dumbed down to the level of that base. Their strategy is simple. They cannot be held accountable for their theories because they are no longer in power. They can continue to tell everyone that if the government cuts spending then the private sector will save the world. They know they can make the American public forget that they had the chance to do that with control of the Congress for 12 years from 1995 until 2007. And now they say "We're sorry. We lost our way, and if you just help us fight Obama and keep him from succeeding then we will do much better next time. We also have some good 'bottom land' we can sell you in Louisiana".
Ya gotta admire the gall.
Hang on - it will be a bumpy ride.
Just in case some of you were not fully familiar with the quality of educational life in the great state of La., check out these up-to-date reports from the Pew Charitable Trust. Mr. Jindal's state ranks at the bottom of every measure of performance for an educational system. He's in charge of a state that virtually breeds developmental diabilities and he wants the country to follow his lead. Chutzpah to the Nth degree.
http://www.pewtrusts.org/news_room_detail.aspx?id=33264
Scroll to the bottom of that report for the data sets which show clearly that La. is not the place to be if you want your kids to receive an education.
OH--- and it is not all the UAWs fault
-Rocky
Oh gosh, I should be hoping our society provides for bad students and felons - what a tragedy that we might have a merit-based society. You know, mother nature is horrible, as the weak don't do as well. We should change that.
-Rocky
Incorrect!!! In my world we would have competition from inside our borders. If the foreign nameplates wanted to compete here well they better build it here or be tariffed. Many small businesses never get a chance form, grow, propsper, because some Chinamen, is doing the job cheaper which has cost the U.S. government Trillions of dollars in lost revenue. The U.S. had little competition from outside forces from 1900's-1970 and I hear you old timers talk about how great those cars were given the limited technology of that era. Did the rich only drive back then??? Everyone in my family even my ancient great grandma, great uncles, aunts, had nice cars back in the old days and were able to afford a new car every so many years and they usually had a pre-owned one also. The bottom line is their is always going to be someone who says they can do the job cheaper so we should fire all the U.S. farmers and grow all our food in China. Build our cars in China and India. Need a doctor call India, need a nuclear warhead call North Korea, because it's all about the buck, right??? Who gives a rats [non-permissible content removed] on the ripple affects!!! Screw your neighbor and country is the entitlement attitude of the pseudo-capitalist and that is exactly why this country is in the shape it's in!!! :sick:
-Rocky
Who allowed that???
We rebuilt countries torn by WW2 and gave them a place to sell their products. We in turn sold them our products. Sadly your grandparents only saw the auto industry as important and were oblivious to what was going on outside the UAW world they lived in. The average American had it a LOT tougher in the 1950s and 60s and 70s than the picture that has been painted in your mind.
Hawg Wash!!! Anyone who wanted a good job during that era could get one even if you were unskilled they would invest in you!!! The problem was everyone wanted a suit and tie job in that era and thought they were to good to get their hands dirty and that kind of a job was below them. Don't worry gagrice your dream world of non-union, capitalism is here!!! I will feel sorry for your kids when the ripple hits them and we go on a rampage of the bottom line is the buck and your grandkids will point the finger at your generation and ask why did your generation grandpa sell us down the river??? You know that question is coming thus I'm sure you have some time to prepare a rebuttal!!! They might be able to go to a library and blow the dust off of some prehistoric history book that spoke about the UAW and Teamster union and how they faught for workers rights (since workers in the future won't have none) and a fair standard of living for the working class in this country. I feel sorry for the next generation because there minds have been poisoned by the right-wing media outlets like Rush, that unions are bad and there company is going to take care of them!!! :sick:
-Rocky
Well that is goingto be 80% of americans if we stay on this road!!!! :sick:
The warehoused votes are the targets. Not UAW workers or even Walmart workers. Those with any income will be paying guaranteed. Just like the $129 per month I pay for Medicare. I went for the cheapest plan. A lot of people are paying twice what I pay for Medicare.
True, but the serfs in your golden capitalist society like former UAW workers won't have any income to speak of thus they won't be affected by the higher premiums that you pay.
Our pastor and his wife pay $271 each per month for Medicare. They are through Blue shield. No free lunch.
You mean the "Tax Shield" occupation??? That is a joke. I guess UAW, workers should all start churches and pay no tax to society but reap all the benefits. :confuse:
-Rocky
Your Union just wants your loyalty and dues. If a Company decides they want to get rid of you or a segment of the Company with you in it they'll do just that. I know this is true having worked 20 years at a Union job for The Boeing Company. And it's not that they were trimming the waste-workers off. 19 of the 21 people in my Tech.Illustrator-Eng. group were let go within about a 6 month period between 2002 and 2003.
Do a good job and treat customers you provide services for and you can still get a good paycheck in America. Unions are not necessary. With a Union your voice is not heard, instead you do as everyone else mandates collectively.
Scary way to do business. Look where it got the UAW's, rockford. A hard and nasty ride down the toilet. Almost, anyway. And rock, that is not my wish. I would prefer Ford, Chrysler and GM to remain in automotive manufacturing. Doing what they've done for a century. The 1960's remain my favorite decade in automotive manufacturing. My first car, a '65 Ford Mustang, remains my Detroit favorite. But my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS has proven to be right alongside my old Mustang as a car that I love and respect. Those two rigs just get my motor running the mostest.
The worldwide marketplace has crushed that dream and idea, that one of continued mastery of the marketplace that Detroit enjoyed for so long. You can't just place the blame on Clinton and his NAFTA. The Union has not been able to save the dream, in fact, in GM, Ford and Chrysler's case they have helped hamstring them.
Now, if your Company is not making a profit, you're in trouble. If the hospital I work at started paying out more than they take in, I could be let go. Your idea of putting an eastern Indian in my job is a nice try but it's not happening. If we start going in to the red several of us will be toast.
I could take some of my skills and open up my own mobile medical clinic, too, like sleep studies. I could buy an RV and travel and do "mobile" sleep studies. Our new CEO found out through a sleep study that he needs to wear a CPAP mask at night, with no supplemental oxygen required. Classic obstructive sleep apnea, it show up on the tracings pretty clearly and 70-80% of the time people get a sleep study the diagnosis is that they have OSA(obstructive sleep apnea). And they need to wear CPAP while sleeping. The upside is that they wake up 6-8 hours later feeling much better. Refreshed and feeling good in the morning. The anatomy of their tongue and oropharanx is such that when they lay down at night their tongue at rest smashes in to the back of their throat and they can't get enough oxygen to nourish their body and brain. They "desat" and are starved for oxygen, and then must "gasp" for air. This goes on all night long. When they wake up they feel tired, still. Their body's pH is not lined up properly and they didn't get the rest they needed during the night. I mean as good as "conditions" can be for them, at the age they are and with all of their other medical problems (if they have any) taken in to consideration. So, our CEO is a walking adverstisement as to the wisdom of getting people tested for OSA. It's a growing field that people are willing to pay money for to get themselves fixed so they can sleep at night, all night long.
It is so important for their physical and emotional well-being. Yes, it is true that I am just learning this skill, so, if I get a pink slip in the next two years I won't really feel comfortable working independently. Need more experience. But believe me I have thought of this. Probably too much expense to do regular Respiratory Therapies in my own place, but doing sleep studies is extremely lucrative. If I am my own boss there will be no eastern Indian or Filipino working my job and providing my service. I will run my own show, or, my Boss and I could open our own clinic up together.
As we both learn sleep medicine this is a possibility, though, working for hospitals is probably what will still be our norm until retirement. rock, I know that the trend is to outsource, but I don't see it happening in healthcare now. I believe there are ways to make ourselves valuable even with that threat looming.
It's in what you have to offer to the patient and consumer, it has to make financial sense to them and be convenient for them. And you have to technically do the tests accurately, keep in communication with the doctors in your community, and treat patients with dignity and respect.
Sorry, rockford, I just don't feel that "shaking in me boots" feel that the aerospace industry ails upon a person.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
-Rocky
-Rocky