By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I'm almost ready to pull the plug here. :sick:
-Rocky
I would love to put you on a assembly line at one of the D3 plants or working one of those so called "unskilled UAW jobs" at Delphi, and you would walk out of their with a brand new perspective of automobile industry work!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
This is what happens when you don't have anyone to protect you!!! If you believe the company is going to take care of you like they promised all these Delphi, salaried employees well here's another example of how well "the company" will take care of you!!! :sick:
-Rocky
You and anyone else who thinks that a company or government guarantee to you is set-in-stone is being foolish and/or naive. Whether it's a promise of a pension, health insurance, or social security, all those agreements are open to be rewritten by those with the power. Possession is 99% of the law, and the company can spend the promised $ (the funds can be spent on lavish parties, offices and bonuses), and the other 1% is in the control of the lawyers who can rewrite the law.
I think it is rather foolish to delude yourself with promises. I want my compensation NOW, and I'll put some away for my retirment and health insurance.
But besides that why do you want someone to take care of you? having then to worry about others keeping their promises? I don't want to have anyone promising anything to me. I'd really like to opt out of social security and Medicare - what I've put in + interest, and stop contributing, and put that $ in my bank.
If you want hassles and getting taken by the system, keep relying on others. Frankly I don't want to be involved in the corrupt systems we have. Take the cash and run. The UAW should have asked for more cash, and less promises.
Regards,
OW
-Rocky
If the Big 3 ran their plants like Honda and Toyota, where 2000 workers make as many cars as 6000 UAW "workers" (slackers is a better word), then they would not jettison 2/3, they would dump over 80% or more as unnecessary baggage in the industrial world...they need to find other work, because we do not need them to make cars...and, rest assured, the imports won't hire them, because the 20 years "experience" they may have is experience in laziness (Jobs Bank), militancy, striking for benefits they don't deserve, and stupid work rules (I don't do windshields, I am restricted to right front wheels)...
If Honda and Toyota rand GM and Ford, 20% of the workers would be needed to make the cars (my math is approximate, do not use these figures literally, but Honda does make the same number of vehicles with 2000 workers that GM needs 6000...if that isn't union featherbedding with useless workers, I don't know what is)
The American model that worked in the 50s died in the 80s-90s...the union crap is overm and we just have not buried them yet, but death is just around the corner...
You are saying Henry Ford, John D. Rockefeller, Joe Kennedy, etc etc were not as greedy as anyone today? Greed has been around since the cavemen. If there is any greed it is with the UAW that wants more from a company losing money. Or does greed only apply to executives :sick:
It wasn't greed by the automakers that forced the UAW sit down strike at the Flint GM plant in the late 1930s?
I never saw anything wrong with someone working at one place for 30 years and retiring with a modest pension and health benefits for life.
Other than it is totally unrealistic for most companies that want to stay in Business. AT&T had a pension plan. You got to retire at 65 after working 46 years. I doubt they ever paid health benefits. They are still strong and making money. Working 30 and out is strictly government workers type benefits. And many local, state plans are in deep trouble. It is unsustainable. Just because the UAW and GM management was too stupid to see that far in advance does not change reality. Most people that retire after 30 years go get another job for 20 more years. No one retiring out of the military can afford to sit on their butts and watch soaps. Unless they are very high ranking officers. Most of them get high paying management jobs when they retire.
Because, when corporate lobbyists pay off an administration and/or Congress to lessen those standards, or the safety standards, who will be there to stick up for us? We need a voice as large as any lobbyist. You or I or Rocky, or even my Business Agent in my local will NEVER get an audience with our Congressperson (unless they have some "Joe the Plumber" type political agenda), but I'm sure if the President of the IBEW international calls, their ears WILL perk up.
It worked for a few. I have about 8 uncles, and I think one of them was in a union with the railroad. Everyone else worked and saved for their own retirement. My father was a coal miner for a few years (mines went out of business), then a baker and part-time musician, then sold insurance for a number of years, while doing handy-man work 1.5 days/week. I had an uncle with a car-repair garage in his backyard, and another uncle who worked pressing LP records, amongst other things. I never really saw anyone who showed up at a good paying job with guarantees for life.
Then the corporate greed of exploiting the 3rd world and making them into slave laborers to make that extra buck while selling out the american working man well leaves us all the way up to the present economic crisis.
No I think you got that wrong. The downfall of unions in this country is not thru American or European corporations outsourcing jobs. The reason U.S. corporations outsource jobs is a result of the prior event. That prior event is that foreign companies became sophisticated and offered the same or better quality goods at a lower cost then U.S. unionized (and even non-unionized) companies could offer those products at. It was Toyota, Honda, Sony and then the Koreans and Chinese who were and are the changers of the global economic makeup.
When these companies became a threat to European and U.S. companies THEN you saw U.S. companies really start to outsource to Mexico, Indonesia, and such.
You should consider the TV industry as a prime example if you need proof of the costs and what happened. I remember my father buying console TV's back around 1970. I remember there was RCA and Zenith and other U.S. made TV's. They were those big ol' console type, with the radio on 1 side, and the LP player, or 8-track on the other side. They sold for about $700. This is in 1970-75 $'s. Over the years the Japanese started selling lower cost models because they ad lower cost structures. they forced the U.S. ones to lower their sale-prices, but they really couldn't lower their costs, as the union contracts had them. Eventually every U.S. manufacturer was forced to close. Then if you want to follow the story the Japanese themselves became so successful they became too expensive, and they lost the manufacturing market to the Koreans, Chinese, and other low-cost manufacturers. So today you enjoy a 42" LCD TV for $500 made in Indonesia, from parts made thruout low-cost countries, because the same exact electronics and TV assembled here in the U.S. with union labor with guaranteed retirement benefits might be $2,500.
The world you are thinking about with the guaranteed good wages and benefits for high-school grads, can't exist today on products that can be shipped around the world, as the 3rd world has become more sophisticated.
If you want to make good money with just a high-school degree these days, I suggest you learn a skill that can not be shipped; plumber, electrician, heavy equipment operator might be good examples of jobs that need some skill. A person making something in a factory, can be done most anywhere, and those type jobs will tend to go to the lowest cost areas.
are you up for it gagrice?
If you want Delphi's benefits, the company has to be around to give those out.
No delphi = no delphi benefits.
Would you risk the employment offered to the current employees in favor of your own health benefits?
^^^^^^^^^^^
To me this is great advice: skills that cannot be outsourced. Nursing, car repair (Mechanics of any kind: airplane for exampel), barber, plumbing, electrician, heavy equipment. Factory jobs are here today and can be gone tomorrow.
So it is with cars...we have lost our industrial base simply because the labor that makes the item wants to be paid more than their unskilled labor is worth...so, in order to cut costs, and acknowledging the obvious fact that the labor to make the car is nothing special that cannot be taught to a Singaporean or Mexican or Indonesian, if the cost to transports the item is less than the cost of labor, it pays to make it elsewhere and ship it here...
Unionites simply stick their collective heads in the sand and say that the items should be made here NO MATTER WHAT THE LABOR COST, as it is THEIR labor that costs too much, or, their stupid work rules take labor costs that COULD be reasonable and make them entirely unreasonable...
The Honda example works here...if 2000 workers can make as many cars as 6000 UAW workers, there is no reason why the same setup can't make GM cars with fewer people, or tanks, aircraft carriers, F-16 fighter jets, or whatever...we do NOT have to lose our industrial manufacturing base, but it is the union that is destroying it, by making everything cost more because of the excess featherbedding for unnecessary jobs...
We can have a healthy manufacturing base if the manufacturing methods of Honda or Toyota was applied here...fewer workers, more versatile in their job descriptions, where the entire industry makes just as many items, but the cost structure is lower because fewer workers are needed...
If the efficient methods of Honda and Toy were utilized, I would bet that most of the industrial base could be restored, as long as ridiculous UAW wages were not demanded for unskilled labor...
So, while everyone laments the loss of the industrial base, no one seems willing to tackle the underlying cause, which is that restrictive work rules, designed by their nature to add jobs by the millions, have actually caused job LOSSES in the millions because of their ridiculous demands...
We have voted with our feet, but UAW unionites are mentally incapable of getting it...Hondas method of manufacture is substantially more efficient, yielding better cars with fewer workers...that same method can be applied to everything else taht we could make, if only the union didn't try to make 5000 jobs in a plant that needed only 1000...that is how the costs add up, making our product either cost effective or cost prohibitive...
The other concept that UAW brainwashed are incapable of understanding is the concept of the reason businesses are formed...a business is formed for the purpose of making a profit, pure and simple...a job, or millions of jobs, are created when their is sufficient profit to make it reasonable to pay someone to do the work needed for the product or service...as soon as profit disappears, the job evaporates...UAW people, many of whom probably have junior-high-school educations, think that businesses are created to provide jobs...as always, they have it backwards...
They think business creates jobs with the hope of a profit...
Reality is that business hopefully creates profit from which a job may be created...
Since no one in the UAW has even the slightest kindergarten concept of business or self-employment, they just think that GM exists to give them a job, whether they make a profit or not...
That is why the workers strike and lose more jobs, and walk the picket lines with their childish "Solidarity" signs, and they watch the company go bankrupt, wondering where their jobs went...
Someday, I wish someone would survey 100,000 UAW workers...I really wonder if any ONE of them has an IQ over 100, and I would bet a hamburger that the collective average IQ is under 80...the stupidity of the UAW in this modern economy simply amazes me to no end...
Please excuse the wishy-washy opinions...as soon as my thoughts solidify, I will present stronger opinions if I can muster them up...
UAW sets up deal with Ford for more cash than GM Chrysler could muster without more cash from us taxpayers. Is this history repeating in that the UAW has dealt with the most successful of the 3 to set a pattern for the others to have to live up to?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I recall the time when I was involved in setting up a plant manufacturing bearings where only 12 people were employed on the floor, albeit people with skills to operate a CNC machine and SQC/SPC controller on the line.
An old line, making the same bearings, 1/4 mile away, employed 300 people. unionized that too.
We had to put in strict rules for the 12 man team in the new plant NOT to interact with the employees in the old plant simply because of the rub-off effect that would result.
Are you kidding? My momma didn't raise no fool. I took Union jobs. Not in manufacturing. As Kernick pointed out very well we were losing MFG jobs since the 1950s to Japan and the World. It was only a matter of time before it hit the prima donna UAW workers. I don't remember the UAW picketing against radios and TVs coming from Japan in the 1960s. It did not require a degree in human behavior to see what was happening even in Detroit in the late 1960s. Why would any company want to move there with all the problems? Autos are just another lost manufacturing business. It did not have to be. Ford wanted to build a state of the art manufacturing facility in the USA. The UAW work rules could not be bent to accomodate. So that is just another few thousand UAW jobs gone South. Way South to Brazil.
Those rules have not gone down hill in decades. They were even improved during the Bush administration. Taking away comp time and requiring OT for anyone making less than I believe $65k per year salary. Not sure about your State. CA and AK have VERY strict safety regs for just about every aspect of any job you can imagine. NO UNION required. If the Union does not oversee the Pension and health care just what good are they for a hard working employee. I can understand a loser wanting the UAW protection.
This is one of the greatest responses to the requests for bailout money I have seen thus far.
As a supplier for the Big 3 this man received a letter from the President of GM North America requesting support for the bailout program. His response is classic, and has to make you proud of a local guy who tells it like it is.
*Dear Employees & Suppliers,*
*Congress and the current Administration will soon determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis......... As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard. Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.*
*Troy Clarke President General Motors North America*
Response from:
Gregory Knox, Pres. Knox Machinery Company Franklin, Ohio
Gentlemen:
In response to your request to contact legislators and ask for a bailout for the Big Three automakers please consider the following, and please pass my thoughts on to Troy Clark, President of General Motors North America.
Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new "messiah", Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream"... Believe me folks, The dream is over!
This dream where we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the world's most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities... this dream where you still think the masses will line up to buy our products forever and ever.
Don't even think about telling me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the Midwest during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.
Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America, states: "There is widespread sentiment throughout this country, and our government, and especially via the news media, that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management which it certainly is not."
You're right Mr. Clarke, it's not JUST management... how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag [non-permissible content removed]... so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time... for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour work week. How about the line workers who threaten newbie's with all kinds of scare tactics... for putting out too many parts on a shift... and for being too productive. (We certainly must not expose those lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?)
Do you folks really not know about this stuff?!? How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea: "over the last few years... we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors.." What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?
Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them? The K car vs. the Accord? The Pinto vs. the Civic?!? Do I need to go on? What a joke! We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades. It's time to pay for your sins, Detroit.
I attended an economic summit last week where brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu, from the Institute of Trend Research, surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money". "Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems," but despite what people like politicians and corporate magnates would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day... and the following very important thing would happen...where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop up... that is how a free market system works... it does work... if we would only let it work..."
But for some nondescript reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work - that we need the government to step in and "save us"... Save us my [non-permissible content removed], Hell - we're nationalizing... and unfortunately too many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even have a clue that this is what is really happening... But, they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams... yeah - THAT'S really important, isn't it...
Does it ever occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades in this country?... How can that be??? Let's see... Fuel efficient... Listening to customers... Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul...
Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming four decades ago when he taught that by adopting appropriate principles of management, organizations could increase quality and simultaneously reduce costs. Ever increased productivity through quality and intelligent planning... Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"... Efficient front and back offices... Non union environment... Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know down deep in their hearts.
I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did when I was their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) - I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work through it. Radical concept, huh... Am I there for them in the wings? Of course - but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults.
I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad news peop
hope i was not to harsh but had to vent
remember not everyone can AFFORD A FORD
Gutsy.
Where is the link to this however?
Ford stock has passed GM's in after-hours trading reportedly.
Would you risk the employment offered to the current employees in favor of your own health benefits?
Yes, because people like my father put in nearly 30 years and saved Delphi, enough money on one suggestion he made to pay for all his healthcare and retirement benefits and deserves what he earned due to all the sacrificing he made over the years. The system is broke and the american worker like UAW members SHOULD NOT have to compete against the 3rd world nor should american business. We should set up the system to give US the advantage in the market place and if others don't like it well they can kiss our red, white, and blue [non-permissible content removed]!!!
-Rocky
No offense but that is exactly the ripple affect because now those displaced union TV, workers can't afford to buy cars which puts the UAW, workers out of a job and the union guy making Refridgerators, etc, etc, etc.....Follow where I'm going with this??? Our strong middle class has been destroyed by this behavior. I'd rather pay $2500 for a union made TV and have that TV, worker buy one of my cars if I was a UAW, worker. Sure we might be able to afford the latest and greatest gadgets ever 6 months but damn it we'd be better off IMHO. The internal competition that we had in the 50's and 60's that lead to the industrial age boom of that era that gave so many citizens the "american dream" is why I believe the way I do. My grandparents and relatives lived during the good ol' days. People kept cars perhaps a little longer and perhaps kept clothes a little longer but this country was ran like a well oiled machine and people weren't in debt nor was our nation despite fighting major wars that cost tax payers a lot of money. I guess as lemko, once said I would of been better of living in a era in the past with the way I think!!! :sick:
-Rocky
Regards,
OW
Ford will not last on it's own, either. The market AND the government will now dictate the fate of all 3.
Let's give credit and support where it is due: The Ford Motor Co. has waved off any bailout money, preferring to go it on its own without using taxpayer welfare. Contrasting this laudable position are General Motors and Chrysler, which we wouldn't recognize if they didn't have their hands out, looking for our money.
Ford, the company taking the responsible route, will now have to compete with two companies being given a competitive advantage by government handouts and "loans." If GM and Chrysler were allowed to fail, as they should be, Ford would gain their market shares, qualified workers and competitive opportunity against Honda and Toyota. Instead, the government rewards the inefficiency, poor management and bad decisions of Chrysler and GM, to Ford's disadvantage.
Either way, one company will make it. Get used to a hybridized industry!
Regards,
OW
Last Ford I personally owned was a '71 Pinto. It was an actually an OK car. There were some carburetor problems that FORD could not seem to solve. I eventually "Fixed" them myself, although the EPA would not have approved.
Then there was the minor but annoying problem of *explosion*, if they were rear ended. But mine never did! :shades:
The F150, Fusion, and Focus certainly "appear" to be superior to their past products. The Crown Vics have served well as police vehicles but are now losing sales to the Dodge Charger because of the Chargers stronger engine. Ford could curtail that by installing a High Output version of the 5.4L engine. Ford says, the hood sits too low, and the engine will hit it. Well....? Redesign the hood !
Then there is the highly automated plant in Brazil. It seems they are turning out more reliable and more desirable vehicles in spite of the UAW. Plants like that could be right here, except for UAW contracts, according to the video posted on this forum
Hopefully Ford will continue to build better cars somewhere. Seems to me that 2 plants hiring half the worker each is better than one plant that is dyeing a slow and painful death. UAW needs to come to terms with the idea of automation. It is here to stay. UAW can live with it or die without it!
Robots don't work forever without being taken care of and maintained properly. The brightest employees could be trained to do that. The average employees still on the assembly line, and the dead wood trimmed.
Kip
The main point I think is you live in an area where the manufacturing base is focused on products that others in the world can make cheaply. They are trying to hang on against globalization. Now the manufacturers where I live all lost to globalization years ago; but manufacturing still exists.
The manufacturing that does well today, does so because of the various reasons, and I'll give an example of each:
1) the item is difficult or expensive to transport, or will spoil - agricultural products are bulky, low cost, and spoil; thus food processing plants will be located in the U.S. (General Foods, Budweiser ...)
2) Patented or proprietary items you don't want copied. Many, many companies have proprietary chemical formulas - (Dow, Dupont, all pharmaceutical companies) that they will not ship the manufacturing to China as there are concerns that the formula will be pirated, and 30 companies will start making it. Therefore many, many companies pay more to have it made in the U.S. or Europe. MOST everything coming out of the research at colleges and universities will probably stay here in the U.S. initially for at least 10 years.
3) Defense industry for obvious reasons
I'm sure some others could add some other categories. But the point is: autos can be taken apart fairly easily and examined, and once a low cost society figures out how to make a fairly close copy, then the days are numbered for that industry in the more expensive area.
You and the UAW can lament that the world is globalized, but no one is going to do a thing about it. If the UAW didn't have competition from overseas, and the UAW and the rest of the D3 didn't push for cost cuts each year, and the prices were set such that the D3 earned $, what would the average price of a D3 car be? $40K? $45K? $50K?
The median income of a worker in this country is about $40K. The average person would be nowhere near being able to afford a new car, if there wasn't globalization. In your world, only the wealthier would be driving?
I also lived during those supposedly "GOOD OLD DAYS". The US industrial age peaked during WW2. It has gone global ever since that time. We became the World's cop so to speak. We rebuilt countries torn by WW2 and gave them a place to sell their products. We in turn sold them our products. Sadly your grandparents only saw the auto industry as important and were oblivious to what was going on outside the UAW world they lived in. The average American had it a LOT tougher in the 1950s and 60s and 70s than the picture that has been painted in your mind. It was not all UAW and fat cat Union workers. More people lived on $1.25 per hour minimum wage during the 1950s than you can even fathom. I went to work at the phone company because of a recruiter that came to our high school and gave the spiel of how this was a job for life with a pension at 65. If I had stayed with AT&T I would have been pushed out in the 1980s after the government split up the Bell System. Fortunately I got out before the government screwed up the phone system in the late 1970s. I was one of the lucky ones. I ran into an old Pacific Telephone guy that was barely getting by after he was forced out long before retirement age. He was picking up odd jobs here in San Diego to survive. What you are going to eventually realize is the Auto Industry and the UAW have been protected longer than any other group of non skilled workers. Now it is time to pay up. Being a Walmart greeter for $8 per hour is not the end of the World. Lots of other Union folks have been doing it for a long time.
You mean I may have hit one right? I got in at $1.60. Maybe there is hope for my 401K yet.
Yeah, and they LOOK it too these days! I used to love Bostonian shoes. They were very well made and reasonably priced. I won't even consider them now as they are all stamped "Made in China" or "Made in India" on them, have SLOPPY stitching, cheap plastic or rubber soles, glue spots, tool marks, and the designs SUCK!!! If I wanted to wear ugly work shoes to an important meeting, I'd wear my steel toe boots. Shoot, they barely have a SHINE to them! They come new from the box looking like they're ten years old and have never been polished. What happened to the beautiful classic designs? Good God, people dress like SLOBS these days!
Regards,
OW
The workers at Hon/Toy get decent wages and are nonunion...they are also PRODUCTIVE without stupid work rules...actually, there are work rules...please work wherever we need you...simple as that...
The unionites will NEVER comprehend, as their entitlement DNA prevents them from seeing, reality except the union fairy tale they call reality...if a normal business manager ran the automakers, they could probably do with only 50,000 workers and the rest should be doing something productive...
chikoo: "We had to put in strict rules for the 12 man team in the new plant NOT to interact with the employees in the old plant simply because of the rub-off effect that would result."...THAT is what I have trying to describe, the rub-off effect where the current unionites destroy the work ethic of any new worker that could have been a decent employee, but now just UAW crap...
I doubt we have finished paying for the debt from WW ll. Frankly, I don't see a light in the tunnel any where. I do see the American dream of retirement shifting to 70 years of age. I see much smaller row houses becoming the average home. Perhaps a new vehicle will be only available by ordering it and then it is made just per your order. Maybe used vehicles will become like the conditions in Cuba. In Cuba they refirbish and keep rebuilding everything and keeping it in top condition. This just might be what we are handing down to the next 10 generations or longer.
How long can we keep up the pace of buying something, use it and despose of it, and buy it all over again....the cycle is endless. In each recycle the item cost more, but now the persons wages have gone down. Things cost more, we have less and less. This just may be what we have done to ourselves. Think about it.
farour
Actually I would like to see at least two. Just not GM. Either Ford + survivable remnants of GM under new management, or Ford + a novel startup (like Tesla, etc.).
UAW manufactures = UAW consumes
Is that what you are preaching? What about the rest of the people who just want a decent product at a decent price?
You left out the Ford Crown Vicky, also not dull like a Toyota
Good idea. One US manufacturer and one foreign brand manufacturer.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I intend to work easily into my 70s, as I cannot just rock in a rocking chair at age 65...
Maybe 40 years ago, folks were washed up at 65, but now???...nobody is washed up at 65, nobody is useless at 65 (I could mention an older UAW was always washed up, just to stay on topic, but that would sound anti-union)...
I simply cannot see 65 as the age where it all stops...Bob Schieffer, host of face the nation (CBS???) is 72...why can't he continue on if he wants to???...OK, he may not be as attractive as a Fox News or CNN anchor, but who cares???
I simply will NOT accept anyone's statement that at 65 their life is over and they need to stagnate...70, 75, maybe...but 65???...not just no, but hell, no!!!
rocky, please don't tell me that we disagree on this one, too...:):):):):)