<< icvci: I have never had an oil filter leak in 15 years of doing my own oil changes. >> Same thing with me. I NEVER had leaking or defective filter. But also I never worried that simple filter oil leak could burn my car. Now I do. See the difference?
Kizhe, I used to let my oil drip for an hour or two but I wonder if a 20 minute drip is going to make any difference versus letting it drip overnight. Isn't most of the dirt suspended in the hot oil and doesn't most (99.9%?) gets dumped when you change it?
(Sabrina9, the word play was intentional; thanks for noticing <g>).
Nope, sorry kizhe I don't see the difference. For me, losing my engine would be just as bad. I always exercise care while doing oil changes regardless of fire hazard. And frankly, as gee35 has pointed out, it could have started a fire in anyone of the cars I owned previously.
OK, but what if you, or the primary contractor for your build site, told the plumber he had 12 minutes to install the washer/dryer venting system and fill out all the paper work?
If he's forced to rush, mistakes are more likely.
Everyone seems to be dodging this issue. Let me ask bluntly, do you think it is reasonable for Honda to allow just 12 minutes for a tech to do a complete, safe, and thorough oil change service?
You keep bringing up this 12 minute thing so I asked.
We (our store) doesn't even have a set time. It takes what it takes but we figure a half hour. That's what the guys get paid on. We tell the "waiters" that it'll take between a half hour and forty minutes.
I don't know who started the 12 minute rumor in the first place.
No one may have responded directly but several have said that something similar needs to be done. Problem is, the vehicle should have been designed that way.
This was obviously one that had been put up in the last few days...(not the same one from yesterday) I can't wait until someone asks Honda the real question. HOW MANY fires/oil leaks etc, have there been since 2/28 (close of NHTSA investigation) on 03's and HOW many have there been on 04's... Judging from the emails I get and the latest NHTSA stuff, there are alot more than Honda admitted. Like shooting fish in a bucket if you ask me
Make: HONDA Model: CR-V Year: 2004 Complaint Number: 10081628 Summary: WHILE DRIVING AT 65 MPH CONSUMER WAS WARNED BY ANOTHER MOTORIST THAT THE VEHICLE WAS ON FIRE. VEHICLE WAS PULLED OVER, AND THE CONSUMER STOPPED THE ENGINE. IMMEDIATELY, THE FIRE WAS EXTINGUISHED, BUT CONTINUED TO SMOKE. ONCE THE SMOKE CLEARED CONSUMER COULD SEE THAT THE WIRES IN THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT WERE MELTED. SEVERAL NEWS PAPERS WERE RUNNING ADDS CONCERNING FAULTY OIL CHANGES BY HONDA MECHANICS.*AK
I've seen it mentioned a couple of times but I haven't really seen an answer (maybe I missed it) But the 2002 was the first model year for the current style of CR-V. So what is different that is causing the problem in the 03s and 04s? From my understanding the only changes the later years had were some minor interior changes (coat hooks and a bigger center dash box)
My 02 has over 50K on it now (10 oil changes) so hopefully my V is past the danger zone. Sabrina and the others that had the fires I can't imagine how scary seeing your car burn up would be.
27 cars burned up as of 2/28/04...with new reports continuing to flow in to NHTSB...my guess is that we're probably up to 40 cars charred.
Anyone who claims this absolutely and positively is not a desgin issue needs to have their heads checked out (people at Honda). The horrible placement of the oil filter, with the excessive explosiveness of the exhaust needs to be looked into further. A couple drips of oil and the car shouldn't blow up.
All you Honda defenders out there...let's say 40 cars burned up so far, 0 deaths. Will you finally blame Honda when we're up to say 200 cars and 5 deaths?
The golden rule of car safety involves "risk aversion". If a barrier between the oil filter and the exhaust will save lives and averse the risk of fires...that's what Honda should do.
Hello, I wanted some information on mileage traveled after the oil change until the fires occurred. I am a district manager for Jiffy Lube and we just paid $2,300 for a 2003 CRV with 13,000 miles that caught on fire after the oil change. However, the car traveled 1,000 miles after the oil change before the problem happened. Any installation problems should have shown up quickly after the service. I DO think there is more to the story than Honda is telling. I was present when the Honda dealership pulled the filter from the car. The filter was tight and only one gasket was present. The filter gasket was pushed out from the mounting plate allowing the oil to seep through. Again, any defect or installation error would have shown up quickly. No way the car would have gone 1,000 miles with an improperly installed filter. Any data on how far the CRVs have traveled? Very interesting.............
<<The filter gasket was pushed out from the mounting plate allowing the oil to seep through.>>
Thx for posting, we appreciate someone like a district mgr. of Jiffy Lube providing their opinion. As you can see CRV fires are the "hot" topic at the moment (pun intended). Can you expand a bit on what happened to the filter on the CRV you mentioned. Some of us are far from automotive experts. From the way you described, it sounds like the gasket simply shrunk, thus creating a small gap allowing the oil to leak out.
I don't know which oil change it was. This happened about 2 weeks ago. I sent in the filter to have it tested and it came back ok. I'm very curious to find out the real story.
The oil filter gasket looked like it was warped, although that was not the case. Something, too much pressure from the engine possibly, made the filter gasket lose its place where it normally resides and where it was installed and since there wasn't a proper seal, the oil leaked past the gasket.
My two cents...If 'Air-Away' Corp (made up of course) was a monopoly that produced the plastic type duct you descibe, and such duct was used throughout the country and if all of a sudden a number of fires started to occur, well then I'd start looking at them first and if they had perhaps changed ANYTHING in the design or coposition of the duct.
Lets just hope something happens to end these fires sooner rather than later.
I guess gee35coupe asked the same question. Thanks for your answer. As you know Hondas aftermarket filters are made by Fram. Seems like this problem is not indicative to a specific company. Thank you for posting your message.
during the investigation. And if they didn't I hope NHTSA came behind them to verify the findings. Both entities have shown in the past that they don't hesitate to recall vehicles deemed unsafe so the "Honda's cheap" conspiracy theory doesn't wash here.
Honda will not be able to recall the CR-V until it has determined root cause and has an implementable solution. Of course, some % of oil filters leak due to various reasons. The problem here is the oil is leaking on to an extremely hot surface and igniting. It sounds like Honda make a design error when it located the filter where it is. They may need to come up with a protective plate/cover to channel any leaking oil away from any hot surfaces in close proximity. I have noticed after my last oil change small droplets (2 or 3) of the old oil on my garage floor for 2 days after the oil change. This implies to me that the filter is placed in such a poor location that it is difficult to change without having the oil leak on adjacent components. This my friends, is poor design engineering, plain and simple....Honda will have to admit it's mistake and correct it.
This implies to me that the filter is placed in such a poor location that it is difficult to change without having the oil leak on adjacent components.
You, my friend, obviously haven't been under many cars recently. My Mazda P5 is, bar none, the most difficult oil filter I have ever had to change, an absolute nightmare. The inital filter was on so tight I had to remove the wheel well liner to get to the filter so I could get at it from a good angle.
I am looking at two kinds of pouches. Thule has 13 cubic ft and llbean has 11 and 15 cubic ft. Does anyone has any feedback concerning these items? One concern is weight on the CRV (03)roof. Also llbean offers a pad to protect roof. FYI... thule roof pouch costs $79. llbean $99. and larger pouch cost$125. Pad is $15.
I have to agree with you icvci (am I really saying that?!?!! ;-) oil filter locations are rarely convenient to get at. Subarus somehow made it easy but they use an engine design unique to Subaru and Porsche (boxer). Besides my Subarus, I've changed oil on many Hondas, Toyotas, Dodges, Fords ... there's always old spilled oil to clean up off the exhaust or the axle or my arm or face. Never had the new oil leak out from behind the gasket though... no matter how precariously placed the mount plate was...
Could this have anything to do with the weight of oil Honda recommends in this car? Is the unusually light weight 5W20 unique to the CR-V or is used across the Honda lineup?? Could it be this weight that causes the problem, or perhaps the tech using some other weight that exacerbates the situation?
I think we'd probably agree on quite a few things. (Other than this.)
I really believe it has to do with mechanics not paying enough attention to detail. Maybe figuring that there is enough oil left on the the mounting surface to lubricate the filter?
If it was a problem with the filters, other Honda vehicles would be losing their oil at an alarming rate. I believe most Honda fours use the same filter now.
I measured the distance between the cross bars, then went to WalMart and bought the biggest one that would fit between the bars. It cost about $30. The few times I've used it I've opened up a sleeping bag and put it in the bottom of the pouch as padding before loading it. If you want the extra protection, get the LLBean roof pad and the roof pouch from WalMart or somewhere similar. The one I have is water resistant and works well.
Thinner oil would leak more easily, but doesn't Honda specify the same oil in other cars?
There must be a hot catalyst or something at a poorly chosen location, very close to the area where spills just tend to happen.
It's the heat source that might be out of the ordinary, perhaps at higher temps than what is usual. Did Honda add any catalysts in 2003 that the 2002 model did not have, say to meet SULEV standards or something?
I've got my original set of P205/70 R15 95S Duelers from our CR-V if anyone wants them. I don't care to mess with shipping so, if you're in the Metro Detroit area, you can pick them up. (Or if you've got some good plan for shipping, let me know.) They have about 20,000 miles on them and are in great shape. Only 4, the 5th is still on the back.
If not, I'll offer them up to my local freecycle group.
icvci: You bagged me. I haven't changed an oil filter in 10 years. I just don't have the time or desire anymore. I did have a hell of a time changing the filter in my old Toyota Celica and VW Scirocco. Oil would drip on lots of components but none of them were ever "hot" surfaces. Lots of cuts and bruises and swearing...... Regarding the tires, I have about 20K miles on my 03 CRV and my Duelers are worn pretty good already. I do drive very agressively (lots of country roads, hilly and twisty) but I am surprised at how quickly they are wearing. What tires have you put on your CRV? -tia-
Elissa, you would make a great mentor. You know a lot of stuff about cars. No joking here. I think it is great!!! Was this mostly hands-on learning - did you have a mentor?
Every filter I can remember changing involved being careful not to burn myself on the exhaust system. The problem (as I see it) is that the oil is spraying on the exhaust system and that, from what I have seen on every vehcile I've changed oil on, is always a possibility if the filter is not installed correctly. The filter is on the back of the engine somewhat centrally located. The exhaust routes out the back of the car and it too is centrally located.
I put Yokohama Aegis LS4s on it. They got an excellent rating from CR using a series of objective testing proceedures. Noise was measured using a meter. Stopping distances in water, snow and on dry pavement speak for themselves. I'm very happy with them and will buy again. (If they're available.)
It's my wife's vehicle though and they may not be quite as performance oriented as you'd like. Jack-of-all-trades, if you know what I mean.
I just installed a set of Michelin Harmony's on my brand new Taffeta White V, I have had them on for about 100 miles and I love them!! The take off Duelers were horrible.
I feel sorry for those who don't upgrade tires until their OEM tires are worn out. You are missing out.
The Harmony's are very quiet and smooth.
Michelin has a $50 rebate right now when you buy a set of 4. tires.
*blush* thanks so much! But there are lots of knowledgeable others (Juice for one) floating around on the Edmunds forums... I learned nearly everything by experience but also reading my owners manuals back to front and especially reading Chilton and Haynes manuals for the cars that I owned, being a royal pest at my repair shops and parts stores asking for advice anywhere and everywhere I could find it... :-) But no, unfortunately there's no one in my life that serves as a mentor... If there were, perhaps I could avoid some of the $2000 cost of making my 'new' '86 civic less of a menace! :,(
"The problem (as I see it) is that the oil is spraying on the exhaust system and that, from what I have seen on every vehcile I've changed oil on, is always a possibility if the filter is not installed correctly."
That is not a problem on every vehicle. I've done thousands of oil changes. I worked a quicky lube for years.
Yes, some cars have the filter near an exhaust pipe, but not a catalytic converter. I suspect the CR-V's filter is near the cat. I've spilled oil on super hot exhaust before and never had a fire, but catalytic converters can be over 1000 degrees, well over the flash point of oil. Hondas have almost always had their filters near exhaust but not near the catalytic converter and it's never been a problem before....the CR-Vs oil filter HAS to be near the catalytic converter. I haven't been underneath a new one, is the oil filter near the catalytic converter?
...the CR-Vs oil filter HAS to be near the catalytic converter. I haven't been underneath a new one, is the oil filter near the catalytic converter?
Until you know for certain that the catalytic converter on the CR-V is located near the oil filter your statement about it's location is irresponsible.
Manifold of many vehicles due to emmisions regulations. Additionally, the engine have been reversed with the manifold coming out of the back of the engine where there is little to no airflow. My Civic SI forum just had a aftermarket turbo install thread where they stressed thermal protecting everthing around the turbo due to the lack of cooling airflow. I know the Accord engine has the exhaust on the "back" of the engine now but the filter is in a different position than the CR-V. That may be why there is a fire intead of just a lot of smoke and stink.
As far as the "mistake shouldn't cause a fire" mantra. Same could be said for eating, using the phone or adjusting the radio while driving. All those cause accidents of which some are fatal.
C'mon now, someone crawl under neath theirs and take some photos of the area. I'd go to a dealer but he might think I'm Lee Iacocca trying to sabotage more CR-Vs. ;-)
As far as the "mistake shouldn't cause a fire" mantra. Same could be said for eating, using the phone or adjusting the radio while driving. All those cause accidents of which some are fatal.
Yeah, a friend of the family killed herself the day she first used her cell phone while driving - fortunately, she didn't take anyone else with her.
Yes, all of those can cause accidents, but all are the result of driver error and therefore meaningless in this discussion.
Juice, I will take the photo later this afternoon when I'm alone with the CR-V, ramps and digital camera (my husband thinks I'm crazy as it is so I dont' want to crawl under the car at 7AM while we're rushing out the door to work). Do you have a site you could host the photo on if I email to you? I will let everyone know where the heck the cat and filter are. *sigh* -elissa
Comments
HONDA 2003 Element EX, V6, auto, air 1 owner $17,499
Maybe this guy would like to change my oil?
Same thing with me. I NEVER had leaking or defective filter. But also I never worried that simple filter oil leak could burn my car. Now I do. See the difference?
48. replace dryer ducting
The stuff you learn on Town Hall...
Kizhe, I used to let my oil drip for an hour or two but I wonder if a 20 minute drip is going to make any difference versus letting it drip overnight. Isn't most of the dirt suspended in the hot oil and doesn't most (99.9%?) gets dumped when you change it?
(Sabrina9, the word play was intentional; thanks for noticing <g>).
Steve, Host
If he's forced to rush, mistakes are more likely.
Everyone seems to be dodging this issue. Let me ask bluntly, do you think it is reasonable for Honda to allow just 12 minutes for a tech to do a complete, safe, and thorough oil change service?
IMHO, No.
-juice
You keep bringing up this 12 minute thing so I asked.
We (our store) doesn't even have a set time. It takes what it takes but we figure a half hour. That's what the guys get paid on. We tell the "waiters" that it'll take between a half hour and forty minutes.
I don't know who started the 12 minute rumor in the first place.
I was surprised noone else responded to that information.
-juice
It's not that difficult to not be careless!
I can't wait until someone asks Honda the real question. HOW MANY fires/oil leaks etc, have there been since 2/28 (close of NHTSA investigation) on 03's and HOW many have there been on 04's...
Judging from the emails I get and the latest NHTSA stuff, there are alot more than Honda admitted. Like shooting fish in a bucket if you ask me
Make: HONDA
Model: CR-V
Year: 2004
Complaint Number: 10081628
Summary:
WHILE DRIVING AT 65 MPH CONSUMER WAS WARNED BY ANOTHER MOTORIST THAT THE VEHICLE WAS ON FIRE. VEHICLE WAS PULLED OVER, AND THE CONSUMER STOPPED THE ENGINE. IMMEDIATELY, THE FIRE WAS EXTINGUISHED, BUT CONTINUED TO SMOKE. ONCE THE SMOKE CLEARED CONSUMER COULD SEE THAT THE WIRES IN THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT WERE MELTED. SEVERAL NEWS PAPERS WERE RUNNING ADDS CONCERNING FAULTY OIL CHANGES BY HONDA MECHANICS.*AK
Yes the oil change should be done correctly. But when it isn't, it shouldn't cause the car to burn.
Someone here or on the problems board said engines get ruined all the time by bad oil changes. Yes ruined. Burned no.
My 02 has over 50K on it now (10 oil changes) so hopefully my V is past the danger zone. Sabrina and the others that had the fires I can't imagine how scary seeing your car burn up would be.
Anyone who claims this absolutely and positively is not a desgin issue needs to have their heads checked out (people at Honda). The horrible placement of the oil filter, with the excessive explosiveness of the exhaust needs to be looked into further. A couple drips of oil and the car shouldn't blow up.
All you Honda defenders out there...let's say 40 cars burned up so far, 0 deaths. Will you finally blame Honda when we're up to say 200 cars and 5 deaths?
The golden rule of car safety involves "risk aversion". If a barrier between the oil filter and the exhaust will save lives and averse the risk of fires...that's what Honda should do.
Very interesting.............
Thx for posting, we appreciate someone like a district mgr. of Jiffy Lube providing their opinion. As you can see CRV fires are the "hot" topic at the moment (pun intended). Can you expand a bit on what happened to the filter on the CRV you mentioned. Some of us are far from automotive experts. From the way you described, it sounds like the gasket simply shrunk, thus creating a small gap allowing the oil to leak out.
That's scary now. I had my first o/c on my 04 about 1000 miles ago and thought I was out of the danger zone....
13,000 miles. Was that the FIRST o/c. What month did it happen?
Lets just hope something happens to end these fires sooner rather than later.
I personally switched to WIX, Pure One or NAPA Gold until this problem is resolved.
I have noticed after my last oil change small droplets (2 or 3) of the old oil on my garage floor for 2 days after the oil change. This implies to me that the filter is placed in such a poor location that it is difficult to change without having the oil leak on adjacent components.
This my friends, is poor design engineering, plain and simple....Honda will have to admit it's mistake and correct it.
Losing all of your oil, isn't a drip, it's a gush. If the cars don't burn, theiy seize. Get the facts straight.
You, my friend, obviously haven't been under many cars recently. My Mazda P5 is, bar none, the most difficult oil filter I have ever had to change, an absolute nightmare. The inital filter was on so tight I had to remove the wheel well liner to get to the filter so I could get at it from a good angle.
My 86 Fiero was a toughy too.
FYI... thule roof pouch costs $79.
llbean $99. and larger pouch cost$125.
Pad is $15.
Could this have anything to do with the weight of oil Honda recommends in this car? Is the unusually light weight 5W20 unique to the CR-V or is used across the Honda lineup?? Could it be this weight that causes the problem, or perhaps the tech using some other weight that exacerbates the situation?
I really believe it has to do with mechanics not paying enough attention to detail. Maybe figuring that there is enough oil left on the the mounting surface to lubricate the filter?
If it was a problem with the filters, other Honda vehicles would be losing their oil at an alarming rate. I believe most Honda fours use the same filter now.
There must be a hot catalyst or something at a poorly chosen location, very close to the area where spills just tend to happen.
It's the heat source that might be out of the ordinary, perhaps at higher temps than what is usual. Did Honda add any catalysts in 2003 that the 2002 model did not have, say to meet SULEV standards or something?
-juice
If not, I'll offer them up to my local freecycle group.
Regarding the tires, I have about 20K miles on my 03 CRV and my Duelers are worn pretty good already. I do drive very agressively (lots of country roads, hilly and twisty) but I am surprised at how quickly they are wearing. What tires have you put on your CRV?
-tia-
you would make a great mentor. You know a lot of stuff about cars. No joking here. I think it is great!!! Was this mostly hands-on learning - did you have a mentor?
I put Yokohama Aegis LS4s on it. They got an excellent rating from CR using a series of objective testing proceedures. Noise was measured using a meter. Stopping distances in water, snow and on dry pavement speak for themselves. I'm very happy with them and will buy again. (If they're available.)
It's my wife's vehicle though and they may not be quite as performance oriented as you'd like. Jack-of-all-trades, if you know what I mean.
I feel sorry for those who don't upgrade tires until their OEM tires are worn out. You are missing out.
The Harmony's are very quiet and smooth.
Michelin has a $50 rebate right now when you buy a set of 4. tires.
Subaru Forester vs Honda CR-V
Steve, Host
That is not a problem on every vehicle. I've done thousands of oil changes. I worked a quicky lube for years.
Yes, some cars have the filter near an exhaust pipe, but not a catalytic converter. I suspect the CR-V's filter is near the cat. I've spilled oil on super hot exhaust before and never had a fire, but catalytic converters can be over 1000 degrees, well over the flash point of oil. Hondas have almost always had their filters near exhaust but not near the catalytic converter and it's never been a problem before....the CR-Vs oil filter HAS to be near the catalytic converter. I haven't been underneath a new one, is the oil filter near the catalytic converter?
Until you know for certain that the catalytic converter on the CR-V is located near the oil filter your statement about it's location is irresponsible.
JM2C
Anyone know the answer?
As far as the "mistake shouldn't cause a fire" mantra. Same could be said for eating, using the phone or adjusting the radio while driving. All those cause accidents of which some are fatal.
-juice
Yeah, a friend of the family killed herself the day she first used her cell phone while driving - fortunately, she didn't take anyone else with her.
Yes, all of those can cause accidents, but all are the result of driver error and therefore meaningless in this discussion.
Try to find heat shields or catalysts in the area, basically it might just look like the exhaust pipe, but a bit thicker, i.e. swollen.
-juice
And the misapplied oil filter is technician error. You can't sue/blame [insert automaker here] for driver error. The same for technician error.
If it were purely technician error, we wouldn't only be talking about the CR-V.
-juice