Shoot, I have a Pulsar watch I bought at Caldor (remember them) for $32 over 17 years ago. It keeps great time. I would LOVE to have a Tag Heuer or Rolex or even a Longines, but can't justify spending that much for a watch.
Lemko, are you living in 1980? For years now Ferrari has had some of the richest, highest quality, detailed, meticulous interiors ever. The 612 Scaglietti's interior is a work of art. The Ferrari factory is one of the most modern in the world. Each section has it's environment electornicaly controlled so that the materials are not adversly affected. The factory even has trees growing in it. Check it for yourself. http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sport%20Cars/CurrentRange/Pages/Current_Range.- aspx Even the website is state of the art.
Part of it lies in the driver interface. To board the Ferrari is to immerse oneself in the come-hither aroma of hides from bovines obviously fed a steady diet of tagliolini con funghi and Chanel No5. Your eyes transfix on voluptuous ellipses of carbon fiber, on aluminum pedals drilled into modern art pieces, on a Formula 1-bred steering wheel that costs as much as a good motorcycle. The Porsche is more formal, more starched-business shirt, but no less evocative. A mere touch of the Alcantara-wrapped wheel or shift lever fires the word "special" deep into your cerebellum. The sport seats restrain you like a wise mentor. Pieces fit as if the entire cabin were milled from a single billet of good taste.b> http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/112_0902_the_asphalt_jungle/index.h- - - - - tml
Seriously Lemko, if you have enough money for snow tires do yourself a favor and drive an A6, 5Series, etc.
> Given that they mostly own/drive these brands, how could they possibly know that starting back in 80's that foreign brands were better than theirs?
Your argument is predicated on the idea that the foreign brands (every one) was better than each Gm brand in the "80s." Were they?
Do you think they didn't go to the lots to see the other brands? Do you think they didn't have friends who told them their own opinions of other brands?
Do you really think UAW workers are that naive? I reallize it makes good talk that is allowed on the forum, but do you really, really, think every one of them ignored the competition?
>discount to buy their company brand.
Don't the Honda workers get a discount to buy the company brand? Don't the Toyota workers get a discount to buy the company brand? It's my understanding even their suppliers get a discount. I'll verify that with someone I know over the weekend. I think it's wrong to try to damn someone because they get a discount on the product they are involved with producing.
rocklee: You are correct, Reagan has more motives than just making ATC's go back to work. I worked at Edwards AFB and Palmdale Plant 42 as a crash rescue man. In 1980 ATC's were working themselves into an early grave and had the flying public at serious risk. Many informed persons who were close or involved with PATCO supported this union 100%. I did for sure. As a crash rescue man there was a fear of serious problems.
Pres. Reagan busting the Patco Union, was the begining of the taring down of all unions. Patco was not the bad people, it was the "ACTOR"! Under Reagan many saw he slept in cabinet meetings consulted spirituan advisors, ( not Christian) but cultic. Reagan convienced the right wing republicans he was a solid Christian, but he did not attend church, dod not give financial support to any church, and he had a "good old cowboy network". The reagan years were not good for many people, many suffered financially, he in my opinion was about like Clinton. Things just happned to work out not because Reagan had anything to do with it, just God' blessings.
Your argument is predicated on the idea that the foreign brands (every one) was better than each Gm brand in the "80s." Were they?
I generalized thinking about Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, maybe a few others. I guess I forgot about some French and British brands that might have been sold in the 80's in the U.S. So, yes, U.S. brands generally were better than some foreign brands - French or British (except RR) in the 80's, but that is not saying much.
What is legacy of GM in the 80's? The X-Cars and their clones? The Celebrity and its twin, forgot the name, Pontiac?
GM throws away their model names continuously to start all over and make people forget. What other regrettable models and names did GM have in the 80's that are now long gone? Except for Corvette, Impala and Suburban, what other model names are still around in 2009?
Actually, that's fairly close to how I'd probably rank those cars, although I have a slight preference for the Altima over the Accord. Honestly, I don't think any of them are BAD cars, it's just that the Camry does nothing for me. And while I like the Malibu, I just like the Altima and Accord a little better.
Your son probably finds that taking worthless classes are pointless. If we were smart like the Germans, we would set up our education system just like them and focus our money and attention on the skills needed instead of all the underwater basket weaving B.S. that makes college expensive and with that mentality you might find a lot more "Skilled-Laborers" in America.
There is SOME truth in what you say! But why is the US recognized as having the best post-high school educational system in the world? People come from all over the world to get a US college education.
Rocky, if you changed your attitude and focused on night college you would do well. You have the determination if you want to. In 5 years we could be reading about you forming your own manufacturing company!
IMO, all HS grads should take a McJob for a year or two before college, or maybe even go through boot camp with some time oversees in a 3rd world country so they can see how good we have it here. Some place w/o electricity, running water, or toilet paper. They would come back with a whole new attitude!
I'm a college grad and I HAD a MickeyD job for four years in late HS/early college! It was one of the best experiences of my life! I learned responsibility, getting along with people, how to tolerate jerky people, and what life would be like and what it would pay if I didn't finish my education!
IMHO most kids should have jobs like that. It's the ones who think they are careers that are going to be sorry. "I'm a stockroom supervisor at the local Target, they don't pay me enough for a 5 br house, big SUV, and boat :P ".
Sing to the tune of "Where have all the flowers gone?":
Where have all the jerbs gone? Long time passing... Where have all the jerbs gone? Long time ago.... Where have all the jerbs gone? Outcompeted every one... When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?
Where have all the UAW gone? Long time passing... Where have all the UAW gone? Long time ago... Where have all the UAW gone? Lost the jobs bank one by one... When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?
Where have all the D3 gone? Long time passing... Where have all the D3 gone? Long time ago... Where have all the D3 gone? Dropped like flies one by one When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?
I've never seen any data that shows GM has better overall quality. That is one area Ford has improved immensely the past few years. GM has to many losers for every good entry.
That's why BK is such a good idea for GM. If they trim their 100 models down to the best 25 then most of the crxp can be eliminated and what is left might actually be the beginning of a decent line of vehicles.
That's why BK is such a good idea for GM. If they trim their 100 models down to the best 25 then most of the crap can be eliminated and what is left might actually be the beginning of a decent line of vehicles. (I ran out of highlights!)
Agreed X $150B. The fastest way to a successful business model for the DEAD GM is axing as many models as possible and fitting the elite brands into Chevrolet and Cadillac.
Chevy Truck meant something a long time ago so GMC is not necessary.
Buick is a lesser Caddy. This is serious decision making time cans political BS.
2 Brands is all the new entity needs...as well as a new name.
Any ideas on a new car company name for a defeated giant??
me...I missed so many posts I cannot respond to rocky's ripping me a new one...
I just remember a few points...I rip the UAW because of the absolute junk they have sold to us over the decades, and it is their poor quality that has driven buyers into the imports...I BOUGHT Big 3 products because I believe it was the right think to do...
I sat down long and hard in 1998 when my 10 year old Legend was nearing its end...should I buy another Honda, being a delightfully satisfied customer, or should I keep my money here with the Big 3???
While I can, and will, always justify why the American buyer has deserted the Big 3, and with very good reason (poor quality, pure and simple), I still believed that I should keep my money here...no hypocrisy here, however, and it was personal belief that I should keep my money here, I just do not feel right telling someone else to do the same, I can only say to buy what you think is best...
Truly, I do not believe my Ford and Dodge are made as well as my Hondas were, but I wanted to keep my money here...what I do for myself is my business, but I cannot tell another to keep their money here if they believe that the import is the better car and the car they want...
Deep, DEEP inside, I bought Big 3 because I WANT them to win...I wanted to see if all the hype about improvement was real or simple advertising...these 2004 models are better than my 82 and 83 Fords, but I am saddened that after 20 years, they have yet to close the gap with Japanese quality...I had hoped for SUPERIOR quality, simply hoping that we (think UAW) had learned some kind of a lesson about quality control...they have learned SOME, but, in my mind, there really should be NO REASON why our cars are not better than theirs...
We should be able to embarrass the Japanese with our quality, but we fail to do so...for that I blame the UAW for shoddy workmanship, always...they do not design the car, but they put it together, so when rattles and squeaks show up, I blame the folks who built it...
rocky, you are incapable of seeing the fault with the UAW, your only diversionary argument is to ask how someone could buy a house if he isn't paid enough...that misses the point...you have NEVER understood the point concerning how quality has dropped like a rock literally "forcing" people to seek out a better product...and they found one (2?) in Honda and Toyota...
The UAW simply did not, and I question whether it now does, care...they believe they have a divine right to a job, regardless of the quality they build...they are ignorant in terms of why they lost market share and their jobs...they blame currency manipulation, not enough tariffs, yada, yada, yada...the UAW sounds like you (no surprise, there) in that nothing is ever THEIR fault, always someone else's...
They simply do not know they made junk, and that junk had a LASTING impression on millions of Americans...to say to try the new cars sounds good, but, like the boy who cried wolf, and after being burned by rotten cars for years and years, Americans are justifiably suspicious of Big 3 claims of better cars...the claim falls on deaf American ears because too many buyers were burned too many times...how many Big 3 COTY turned out to be junk???
What you cannot comprehend with your union mentality is that, simply, the American people, to a great extent, do not trust the Big 3 and the UAW anymore...you have violated our trust over the decades, but you stick your head in the sand...when we no longer trust you, we will no longer buy your product...and we don't trust you, as you are NOT trustworthy...
You said that GM was still the biggest carmaker...and that means, what???...the biggest carmaker, selling the most cars, is 100 billion in debt and is, simply, bankrupt...so what does the biggest mean now???...simple...they will make the biggest splash when they crash into the water, no more, no less...
You seem incapable of seeing the obvious...Americans deserted them because, unlike me, they went away but did NOT come back, and, to this day, YOU cannot explain why because you cannot see the junk you and your family manufactured for years...
When the quality returns, across the entire line, and they remain top notch for 5-10 years, you may win back the market that deserted you...one or two good years of Malibu and CTS proves nothing, as it could simply be a fluke...
I'm a college grad and I HAD a MickeyD job for four years in late HS/early college! It was one of the best experiences of my life! I learned responsibility, getting along with people, how to tolerate jerky people, and what life would be like and what it would pay if I didn't finish my education!
I didn't work at a Mc Ds, but I did work at a grocery store from age 16 to around 23 when I graduated from college. It was a very good experience working with lots of different people and customers. Like you said, I saw where not getting my degree could lead me... To stocking shelves the rest of my life for $10/hr.
IMHO most kids should have jobs like that. It's the ones who think they are careers that are going to be sorry. "I'm a stockroom supervisor at the local Target, they don't pay me enough for a 5 br house, big SUV, and boat :P ".
Unfortunately under age working laws (restrictions for kids 15-18) make it very hard for HS age kids to find work. When I was 16 in '87, I was using forklifts and balers. No one under 18 is allowed to use that equipment anymore. Add in the hour restrictions for kids in school and many places won't hire them.
I think you are on target I went to Stutgart ,Germany 's Kasborogh plant to watch them make $300,000.00 Snow Cats (Piston Bullies) and the employees all went to to learn the trades.Maybe the engineers were college trained and the execs. I think the big 3 have alot of great young designers and engineers,but the old boys club (CEO's are dinosaurs) holding progress up. In Maine, way up in snow country the Stanley Steamer was made, Henry Fords revolutionalized the auto industry with the assembly line.So what if you had to have a black car or nothing? Also, in Germany they have day care free for the industrial wokers at most plants.(not to mention a beer break) We should promote vocational education more in this country and get rid of courses you'll never use. This is off topic, but we gave Japan the transistor and lost the electonics industry,starting with the television.My uncle put a transistorised ignitionI in his1954 Chevrolet(in 1954, plus GM had a fuel injected 57 Cheverolet) needless to say he was an Airforce engine mechanic. Lastly, boot camp,I went through Parris Island, I never worked at Mickey D's. I saw how hard my dad worked on the docks and my mother standing on her feet all day helpin' to pay the rent.I had a college degree and when someone opened my jacket and read it , I was sent to Quantico to be a commissioned officer. The reason being, a peanut bar officer's life expectancy was short.The kids I had were some of this countries bravest and brightest.Also, they could improvise.I saw Humvees carrying around junkyards to reinforce the the armorplate. That's why I know that if we want to build better cars,boats we can ratchet up our tool and die plants, and what ever.We can build automobiles to compete.We already do in Europe. So whats the hold up? Is that guy Iococa still alive or DeLorean? Yes, maybe we need to invest and change our educational system.I'll let you and all the rest on here put the country right.
I've been there so I can appreciate your feelings and views. The 2003 Denali was the last straw. Rocky will be the last one standing (even after the bankruptcy) for the "Way IT Was", so don't waste your blogg-power!
I will not buy another GM until after the cleansing...Government Warranty be damned! :mad:
This is off topic, but we gave Japan the transistor and lost the electonics industry,starting with the television.
We lost out to the Japanese on the Transistor radio in the 1950s. I got a Japanese Transistor radio for Christmas in 1958 from my biological father. My mom was upset as he had never paid child support but could spend big bucks on a Christmas present. To my mother he epitomized fat cat wealthy Democrat Union guys. He was a Union Tool and Die maker. Expensive toys and no child support.
I would choose something like Auto Dynamics or Transport Tech U.S.A. to promote the future.
I could go with that.
Looking forward to the day that the biggest auto market in the world can make competitive cars again that are the envy of the rest of the world. Finally there is a chance.
I've spent my entire professional life, from in college when my carpool companion bought a Vega, to now when I'm a few years from retirement (35 YEARS!), waiting to be proud of American cars.
I've proudly seen the USA go to the moon and send spaceships to all of the planets. I've seen us invent and commercialize jumbo jets, relational databases, home computers, biotechnology, the ipod, and the internet.......but our cars are still crap! That is a huge embarrassment. The UAW and management of the D3 BOTH share in that lack of accomplishment. :mad:
There is NO REASON that we shouldn't be able to make the world's best cars.
my friend had one that went 220k before body rusted out afte 15 NE winters...my dads 1980 ran great and he didnt exactly maintain it...people still hold the big 3s sins of the 1970s against them, get over it...i bought a 1997 and 1999 lordstown, Ohio made cavaliers, both ran great...i didnt see any difference between those cars and corollas i rode in...the biggest difference is the 3k xtra a corolla or civic would cost
I found this story interesting. The UAW represents these workers at a brass instrument factory. link title
This local has been on strike for over three years. The town has a 19% unemployment, so, no surprise, they have all been replaced. The union has been decertified, but has been appealed by the union.
so, was the Japanese transistor radio pretty cool, and well-made? Did you have the little cheap early headphones with that, or we they not invented yet in 1958? That was about the same timeframe that Boeing got the 707 out to the flying public. Did you like Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis on that little radio?
I remember well my first transistor radio as a young boy in the mid-ta-late 60's. Listened to all the Beatles stuff, The Association with that song 'Wendy', Dion, The Supremes, The Box Tops with 'Sweet Cream Ladies', Eric Clapton with all that great old Cream stuff, Tommy James and the Shondells with that song 'Dizzy' and 'Crystal Blue Persuasion.' Awesome music on my plastic cheap looking transistor radio.
The best time in mankind's history to grow up an impressionable kid listening to all of that great music. By the time The Guess Who and then Foghat hit the scene my ears were ready for some real rock guitar amperage. The best music came at that time in mankind's history.
Hey, where's our buddy rockford fosgate...he might've scored the Hyundai gig for all we know.
that is nonsense, our cars pretty good now and i have driven my share to know
You even used the term yourself -- "pretty good". There is no reason we can't be EXCELLENT! "Pretty good" is not good enough! And most of the stuff GM and Chrysler make is not even pretty good!
We should aspire for excellence. "Pretty good" should belong to some other country, NOT the USA. :mad: :mad:
Mr. Obama should have fired Mr. Gettlefinger, he fired the wrong guy.
I guess Wagoner's job was a scrafice that Obama was willing to make.
Gettlefinger and Lutz were smart enough to quit. The UAWs contracts are going to be toasted once GM files for bankruptcy. Wagoner would have hung on forever. The captain in this case would have gone down with the ship. Any CEO who runs his company into total insolvency while begging for US Taxpayer money and earning tens of $millions deserves to be fired. That's also true of the incompetent Board of Directors of GM who were too stupid to fire Wagoner. They didn't like Jerome York as a Director a few years ago, the one board member who was smart enough to know what needed to be done. Good riddance to all of them.
And it carries the weight of all the bad Chevy's made before it. :lemon: Also the 6spd is still an option on 4cyl. Shop around online, they are very hard to find.
That is a good example of just how Wagoner should have handled the strike in 1998 and subsequent strikes. Workers that think they are worth more than the going wage are just ignorant fools. They will not get sympathy from me. And crying in their beer is really pathetic. How can people be that stupid?
“People don’t respect us. They look at us like, ‘You are stupid because you’re on strike when you could have a good job,’” said David Kish, 62, who spent 40 years making trumpets, trombones and other musical instruments at Elkhart’s Vincent Bach plant before he and 230 fellow union members walked off their jobs April 1, 2006. About 130 workers remain on strike.
The town is fortunate that the company did not move to a more labor friendly state or country. The sooner we rid the country of Unions like the UAW, that believe they are god's gift to the USA, the better off this country will be. That article warms my heart. Seeing management with the courage to stand up to thugs that have destroyed so many unions. Unions can be a good thing for a company. They have to work in harmony to keep a balance. That balance is completely gone with the D3 and the UAW. Poor management and poor UAW leadership has destroyed the largest corporation on the planet.
so, was the Japanese transistor radio pretty cool, and well-made? Did you have the little cheap early headphones with that, or we they not invented yet in 1958?
It was not small. It was AM/FM and about 10 inches long. Had a speaker, no headphones. I think it was a Sony, not sure. We had nothing like it in the US. I just remember everyone was envious.
Jerry Lee Lewis the TRUE King of R&R. Never liked Elvis. He was elevator music compared to Jerry Lee. And he is still doing concerts. A true American Music legend.
Mr. Obama should have fired Mr. Gettlefinger, he fired the wrong guy.
I guess Wagoner's job was a scrafice that Obama was willing to make
I do not think Obama had any legal grounds to fire either of them. He just bought Wagoner off with the $23 million golden parachute. With the stipulation he could act like a big shot firing a CEO. He should be firing half his tax evading, incompetent cabinet. Always some diversion to throw people off the real issues. The government just needs to butt out of the D3 debacle and let them crumble faster, so we can rebuild the auto industry without the UAW millstone. It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that better cars and trucks CAN be built by non union labor. So the myth of UAW workers being better is debunked once and for all. I think even Obama knows it. Just does not want to alienate any of his voter base. He is smart enough to know that 12 million illegals given the opportunity to become citizens is a much bigger block of votes than the piddly few UAW workers that are left.
>has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that better cars and trucks CAN be built by non union labor.
That's if the workers are given properly fitting parts and designs to assemble. UAW workers get blame for GM's shortcomings and lack of forsight.
>Obama knows it. Just does not want to alienate any of his voter base. He is smart enough to know that 12 million illegals given the opportunity
The American people are too short-sighted to see what's coming with the politics. I feel we have the least-prepared executive ever.
>re the instrument makers...
The story that doesn't get told is that the company wanted to replace the craftsmen who build the instruments by hand with machinery and people who don't have the skills but can get the part together. We own one of the prestrike brass instruments. The post strike instruments don't have the same tonal quality. These are not brass instruments people buy for $295 for elementary school band.
This work is not the same as assembling parts on a Civic in W. Liberty, Ohio. It's more like hand shaping the metal and parts as they're being assembled to build a specialty car--maybe like the earlier Jaguar in Britain (were they hand assembled?).
The point isn't that the workers wanted outrageous concessions. Indeed, the company wanted them to take a substantial pay cut. In fact it sounds the same as AK Steel, Middletown, where they wanted all kinds of concessions from the union. The hard-nosed approach is taken to induce a strike or lockout so they can replace the union, make lots more profits for the company, and the workers are just SOL.
All this talk about tariffs...I ALREADY am willing and do pay more for metrics. We get that premium back when we sell or trade. People will pay up to value. Perceived or otherwise.
Why would I pay $22k for a Malibu worth $11K in a two years when I can pay $25K for a metric worth $18K in two years? More Metric money goes INTO the car.Domestic money goes into people's pockets at the expense of the car. Thanks to the UAW.
In fact Toyota employs more people in the US than GM. People that now would never consider joining the UAW after witnessing the fallout from all the strikes. $54,000 a year pension plus Medical and you want me to pay how much more per car to make that payment to someone sitting on their [non-permissible content removed] after 25 years of unskilled labor? No thanks I will CHOOSE the charity I give to,
Now, I won't check it ( as I don't want to know) but I'll guarantee it won't get anywhere near the 16 in town here.
Exactly why I primarily buy used. Buying my 07 Expedition used saved me $20k. I'm thinking with new car sales being so flat, at some point used values will increase to a point that buying new will make sense again.
It all comes down to resale value when I make a decision to buy a vehicle. I just bought a honda odyssey minivan, didn't even consider the dodge or chrysler. why would i buy a vehicle that is going to depriciate 4-6k soon as i drive it of the lot. I could be patriotic and support american car company but it is just charity. I've already contributed enough over the years & served our country.
That's if the workers are given properly fitting parts and designs to assemble. UAW workers get blame for GM's shortcomings and lack of forsight.
There is truth to that. But, if GM had not buckled under for decades and let UAW wages/benefits get out of whack adding unnecessary cost to build cars, then top Management (if they were smart enough) could have put those extra dollars into engineering and better parts and closer tolerances. So, UAW still shares blame.
yeah their are a lot of small fries in the union who are honest workers & want to support their families. It's a shame they get grouped in w/ their greedy leaders. uaw is just a leach sucking the life out of once great companies who are currently mislead.
the only people who support the UAW are the ones who come from a UAW family...by definition, that means they grew up with the UAW, surrounded by the UAW, never heard any conflicting opinions on UAW quality, and, at the absolute bottom of UAW quality, still think that UAW cars were the best made rattle traps in the world...
That is why they are going down hard, they are as stupid as the Eastern Airline mechanics, who were the higheest paid in the industry, and wanted more...while they did not do it by themselves, they certainly helped to drive Eastern out of business...and I do wonder how many other airlines picked them up when they saw they had worked for Eastern...oh, about as many import automakers will pcik up when they see "worked for UAW for 20 years" on the job applications...zero...
What is amazing is that they simply are too stupid to see it coming...talk about sheeple...what else do you call a UAW member who strikes in the plant that actually makes good cars???...and I am supoosed to believe they are independent thinkers...
The epitome of people who cannot think on their own is the UAW sheeple...they are jumping off their own cliff willingly, still believeing that the guy who sweeps floors is worth (whatever)...(if it is not the $35/hour, please correct my number...please be sure to add in the cost of benefits, as I want to know WHAT THEY COST GM)...
They had a good run...now it's time to bring sanity back to American life and destroy the UAW...maybe in 3-4 generations, the thought of what the UAW did to American auto compnaies will finally be filtered out of human DNA, because anyone who maintains that welfare entitlement attitude is a dormant virus that will destroy any company they "work for", or "show up for a full paycheck and eat donuts for"...
Comments
Most people aren't going to drive the cars screaming at 6400 rpm or 7000 rpm
In my experience a Honda 4cylinder running running 7,000rpm is much easier on the ears on a GM 4cyl @ 6000 or even 5000rpm.
Check it for yourself.
http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sport%20Cars/CurrentRange/Pages/Current_Range.- aspx
Even the website is state of the art.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/112_0902_the_asphalt_jungle/index.h- - - - - tml
Seriously Lemko, if you have enough money for snow tires do yourself a favor and drive an A6, 5Series, etc.
Your argument is predicated on the idea that the foreign brands (every one) was better than each Gm brand in the "80s." Were they?
Do you think they didn't go to the lots to see the other brands? Do you think they didn't have friends who told them their own opinions of other brands?
Do you really think UAW workers are that naive? I reallize it makes good talk that is allowed on the forum, but do you really, really, think every one of them ignored the competition?
>discount to buy their company brand.
Don't the Honda workers get a discount to buy the company brand? Don't the Toyota workers get a discount to buy the company brand? It's my understanding even their suppliers get a discount. I'll verify that with someone I know over the weekend. I think it's wrong to try to damn someone because they get a discount on the product they are involved with producing.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Here is a picture of a 2000 Corvette interior,
Pres. Reagan busting the Patco Union, was the begining of the taring down of all unions. Patco was not the bad people, it was the "ACTOR"! Under Reagan many saw he slept in cabinet meetings consulted spirituan advisors, ( not Christian) but cultic. Reagan convienced the right wing republicans he was a solid Christian, but he did not attend church, dod not give financial support to any church, and he had a "good old cowboy network". The reagan years were not good for many people, many suffered financially, he in my opinion was about like Clinton. Things just happned to work out not because Reagan had anything to do with it, just God' blessings.
farout
At least you got that going for you GM fans. :lemon:
I generalized thinking about Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, maybe a few others. I guess I forgot about some French and British brands that might have been sold in the 80's in the U.S. So, yes, U.S. brands generally were better than some foreign brands - French or British (except RR) in the 80's, but that is not saying much.
What is legacy of GM in the 80's? The X-Cars and their clones? The Celebrity and its twin, forgot the name, Pontiac?
GM throws away their model names continuously to start all over and make people forget. What other regrettable models and names did GM have in the 80's that are now long gone? Except for Corvette, Impala and Suburban, what other model names are still around in 2009?
Didn't the Vega get a car of the year? :P
There is SOME truth in what you say! But why is the US recognized as having the best post-high school educational system in the world? People come from all over the world to get a US college education.
Rocky, if you changed your attitude and focused on night college you would do well. You have the determination if you want to. In 5 years we could be reading about you forming your own manufacturing company!
I'm a college grad and I HAD a MickeyD job for four years in late HS/early college! It was one of the best experiences of my life! I learned responsibility, getting along with people, how to tolerate jerky people, and what life would be like and what it would pay if I didn't finish my education!
IMHO most kids should have jobs like that. It's the ones who think they are careers that are going to be sorry. "I'm a stockroom supervisor at the local Target, they don't pay me enough for a 5 br house, big SUV, and boat :P ".
Sing to the tune of "Where have all the flowers gone?":
Where have all the jerbs gone?
Long time passing...
Where have all the jerbs gone?
Long time ago....
Where have all the jerbs gone?
Outcompeted every one...
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the UAW gone?
Long time passing...
Where have all the UAW gone?
Long time ago...
Where have all the UAW gone?
Lost the jobs bank one by one...
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the D3 gone?
Long time passing...
Where have all the D3 gone?
Long time ago...
Where have all the D3 gone?
Dropped like flies one by one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
That's why BK is such a good idea for GM. If they trim their 100 models down to the best 25 then most of the crxp can be eliminated and what is left might actually be the beginning of a decent line of vehicles.
Agreed X $150B. The fastest way to a successful business model for the DEAD GM is axing as many models as possible and fitting the elite brands into Chevrolet and Cadillac.
Chevy Truck meant something a long time ago so GMC is not necessary.
Buick is a lesser Caddy. This is serious decision making time cans political BS.
2 Brands is all the new entity needs...as well as a new name.
Any ideas on a new car company name for a defeated giant??
Regards,
OW
I just remember a few points...I rip the UAW because of the absolute junk they have sold to us over the decades, and it is their poor quality that has driven buyers into the imports...I BOUGHT Big 3 products because I believe it was the right think to do...
I sat down long and hard in 1998 when my 10 year old Legend was nearing its end...should I buy another Honda, being a delightfully satisfied customer, or should I keep my money here with the Big 3???
While I can, and will, always justify why the American buyer has deserted the Big 3, and with very good reason (poor quality, pure and simple), I still believed that I should keep my money here...no hypocrisy here, however, and it was personal belief that I should keep my money here, I just do not feel right telling someone else to do the same, I can only say to buy what you think is best...
Truly, I do not believe my Ford and Dodge are made as well as my Hondas were, but I wanted to keep my money here...what I do for myself is my business, but I cannot tell another to keep their money here if they believe that the import is the better car and the car they want...
Deep, DEEP inside, I bought Big 3 because I WANT them to win...I wanted to see if all the hype about improvement was real or simple advertising...these 2004 models are better than my 82 and 83 Fords, but I am saddened that after 20 years, they have yet to close the gap with Japanese quality...I had hoped for SUPERIOR quality, simply hoping that we (think UAW) had learned some kind of a lesson about quality control...they have learned SOME, but, in my mind, there really should be NO REASON why our cars are not better than theirs...
We should be able to embarrass the Japanese with our quality, but we fail to do so...for that I blame the UAW for shoddy workmanship, always...they do not design the car, but they put it together, so when rattles and squeaks show up, I blame the folks who built it...
rocky, you are incapable of seeing the fault with the UAW, your only diversionary argument is to ask how someone could buy a house if he isn't paid enough...that misses the point...you have NEVER understood the point concerning how quality has dropped like a rock literally "forcing" people to seek out a better product...and they found one (2?) in Honda and Toyota...
The UAW simply did not, and I question whether it now does, care...they believe they have a divine right to a job, regardless of the quality they build...they are ignorant in terms of why they lost market share and their jobs...they blame currency manipulation, not enough tariffs, yada, yada, yada...the UAW sounds like you (no surprise, there) in that nothing is ever THEIR fault, always someone else's...
They simply do not know they made junk, and that junk had a LASTING impression on millions of Americans...to say to try the new cars sounds good, but, like the boy who cried wolf, and after being burned by rotten cars for years and years, Americans are justifiably suspicious of Big 3 claims of better cars...the claim falls on deaf American ears because too many buyers were burned too many times...how many Big 3 COTY turned out to be junk???
What you cannot comprehend with your union mentality is that, simply, the American people, to a great extent, do not trust the Big 3 and the UAW anymore...you have violated our trust over the decades, but you stick your head in the sand...when we no longer trust you, we will no longer buy your product...and we don't trust you, as you are NOT trustworthy...
You said that GM was still the biggest carmaker...and that means, what???...the biggest carmaker, selling the most cars, is 100 billion in debt and is, simply, bankrupt...so what does the biggest mean now???...simple...they will make the biggest splash when they crash into the water, no more, no less...
You seem incapable of seeing the obvious...Americans deserted them because, unlike me, they went away but did NOT come back, and, to this day, YOU cannot explain why because you cannot see the junk you and your family manufactured for years...
When the quality returns, across the entire line, and they remain top notch for 5-10 years, you may win back the market that deserted you...one or two good years of Malibu and CTS proves nothing, as it could simply be a fluke...
I didn't work at a Mc Ds, but I did work at a grocery store from age 16 to around 23 when I graduated from college. It was a very good experience working with lots of different people and customers. Like you said, I saw where not getting my degree could lead me... To stocking shelves the rest of my life for $10/hr.
IMHO most kids should have jobs like that. It's the ones who think they are careers that are going to be sorry. "I'm a stockroom supervisor at the local Target, they don't pay me enough for a 5 br house, big SUV, and boat :P ".
Unfortunately under age working laws (restrictions for kids 15-18) make it very hard for HS age kids to find work. When I was 16 in '87, I was using forklifts and balers. No one under 18 is allowed to use that equipment anymore. Add in the hour restrictions for kids in school and many places won't hire them.
I think the big 3 have alot of great young designers and engineers,but the old boys club (CEO's are dinosaurs) holding progress up.
In Maine, way up in snow country the Stanley Steamer was made, Henry Fords revolutionalized the auto industry with the assembly line.So what if you had to have a black car or nothing?
Also, in Germany they have day care free for the industrial wokers at most plants.(not to mention a beer break) We should promote vocational education more in this country and get rid of courses you'll never use.
This is off topic, but we gave Japan the transistor and lost the electonics industry,starting with the television.My uncle put a transistorised ignitionI in his1954 Chevrolet(in 1954, plus GM had a fuel injected 57 Cheverolet) needless to say he was an Airforce engine mechanic.
Lastly, boot camp,I went through Parris Island, I never worked at Mickey D's. I saw how hard my dad worked on the docks and my mother standing on her feet all day helpin' to pay the rent.I had a college degree and when someone opened my jacket and read it , I was sent to Quantico to be a commissioned officer.
The reason being, a peanut bar officer's life expectancy was short.The kids I had were some of this countries bravest and brightest.Also, they could improvise.I saw Humvees carrying around junkyards to reinforce the the armorplate. That's why I know that if we want to build better cars,boats we can ratchet up our tool and die plants, and what ever.We can build automobiles to compete.We already do in Europe. So whats the hold up? Is that guy Iococa still alive or DeLorean? Yes, maybe we need to invest and change our educational system.I'll let you and all the rest on here put the country right.
You will ALWAYS have Caddy!
Regards,
OW
I will not buy another GM until after the cleansing...Government Warranty be damned! :mad:
Regards,
OW
Any ideas on a new car company name for a defeated giant??
United Motors; or
Chevrolet Motor Corporation (CMC)
You would think someone would get the hint after this long, no? :confuse:
U.M. is too close to U.A.W. That scares me!
I would choose something like Auto Dynamics or Transport Tech U.S.A. to promote the future.
Motors is so 20th century, don't you think?
Regards,
OW
We lost out to the Japanese on the Transistor radio in the 1950s. I got a Japanese Transistor radio for Christmas in 1958 from my biological father. My mom was upset as he had never paid child support but could spend big bucks on a Christmas present. To my mother he epitomized fat cat wealthy Democrat Union guys. He was a Union Tool and Die maker. Expensive toys and no child support.
I could go with that.
Looking forward to the day that the biggest auto market in the world can make competitive cars again that are the envy of the rest of the world. Finally there is a chance.
I've spent my entire professional life, from in college when my carpool companion bought a Vega, to now when I'm a few years from retirement (35 YEARS!), waiting to be proud of American cars.
I've proudly seen the USA go to the moon and send spaceships to all of the planets. I've seen us invent and commercialize jumbo jets, relational databases, home computers, biotechnology, the ipod, and the internet.......but our cars are still crap! That is a huge embarrassment. The UAW and management of the D3 BOTH share in that lack of accomplishment. :mad:
There is NO REASON that we shouldn't be able to make the world's best cars.
I found this story interesting. The UAW represents these workers at a brass instrument factory. link title
This local has been on strike for over three years. The town has a 19% unemployment, so, no surprise, they have all been replaced. The union has been decertified, but has been appealed by the union.
Or worse, how about calling the UAW because your muffler bearings went bad?
Mr. Obama should have fired Mr. Gettlefinger, he fired the wrong guy.
I guess Wagoner's job was a scrafice that Obama was willing to make.
I remember well my first transistor radio as a young boy in the mid-ta-late 60's. Listened to all the Beatles stuff, The Association with that song 'Wendy', Dion, The Supremes, The Box Tops with 'Sweet Cream Ladies', Eric Clapton with all that great old Cream stuff, Tommy James and the Shondells with that song 'Dizzy' and 'Crystal Blue Persuasion.' Awesome music on my plastic cheap looking transistor radio.
The best time in mankind's history to grow up an impressionable kid listening to all of that great music. By the time The Guess Who and then Foghat hit the scene my ears were ready for some real rock guitar amperage. The best music came at that time in mankind's history.
Hey, where's our buddy rockford fosgate...he might've scored the Hyundai gig for all we know.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You even used the term yourself -- "pretty good". There is no reason we can't be EXCELLENT! "Pretty good" is not good enough! And most of the stuff GM and Chrysler make is not even pretty good!
We should aspire for excellence. "Pretty good" should belong to some other country, NOT the USA. :mad: :mad:
I guess Wagoner's job was a scrafice that Obama was willing to make.
Gettlefinger and Lutz were smart enough to quit. The UAWs contracts are going to be toasted once GM files for bankruptcy. Wagoner would have hung on forever. The captain in this case would have gone down with the ship. Any CEO who runs his company into total insolvency while begging for US Taxpayer money and earning tens of $millions deserves to be fired. That's also true of the incompetent Board of Directors of GM who were too stupid to fire Wagoner. They didn't like Jerome York as a Director a few years ago, the one board member who was smart enough to know what needed to be done. Good riddance to all of them.
Outstyled, or copied?
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/sedans/2008_honda_accord_vs_- nissan_altima_chevy_malibu_hyundai_sonata_toyota_camry_ford_fusion_dodge_avenger- _comparison_test+page-6.html
Go a little more in depth and download the final results:
http://www.caranddriver.com/content/download/91981/1180294/version/1/file/The+Bu- zzard-and-Baloney+Brigade+-+Final+Results.pdf
The difference isn't all that big, and this was w/ the 4 sp auto. The 6 sp auto is available w/ the 4 cyl now.
The G body muscle cars.
And it carries the weight of all the bad Chevy's made before it. :lemon:
Also the 6spd is still an option on 4cyl. Shop around online, they are very hard to find.
They took our jerbs!
“People don’t respect us. They look at us like, ‘You are stupid because you’re on strike when you could have a good job,’” said David Kish, 62, who spent 40 years making trumpets, trombones and other musical instruments at Elkhart’s Vincent Bach plant before he and 230 fellow union members walked off their jobs April 1, 2006. About 130 workers remain on strike.
The town is fortunate that the company did not move to a more labor friendly state or country. The sooner we rid the country of Unions like the UAW, that believe they are god's gift to the USA, the better off this country will be. That article warms my heart. Seeing management with the courage to stand up to thugs that have destroyed so many unions. Unions can be a good thing for a company. They have to work in harmony to keep a balance. That balance is completely gone with the D3 and the UAW. Poor management and poor UAW leadership has destroyed the largest corporation on the planet.
It was not small. It was AM/FM and about 10 inches long. Had a speaker, no headphones. I think it was a Sony, not sure. We had nothing like it in the US. I just remember everyone was envious.
Jerry Lee Lewis the TRUE King of R&R. Never liked Elvis. He was elevator music compared to Jerry Lee. And he is still doing concerts. A true American Music legend.
I guess Wagoner's job was a scrafice that Obama was willing to make
I do not think Obama had any legal grounds to fire either of them. He just bought Wagoner off with the $23 million golden parachute. With the stipulation he could act like a big shot firing a CEO. He should be firing half his tax evading, incompetent cabinet. Always some diversion to throw people off the real issues. The government just needs to butt out of the D3 debacle and let them crumble faster, so we can rebuild the auto industry without the UAW millstone. It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that better cars and trucks CAN be built by non union labor. So the myth of UAW workers being better is debunked once and for all. I think even Obama knows it. Just does not want to alienate any of his voter base. He is smart enough to know that 12 million illegals given the opportunity to become citizens is a much bigger block of votes than the piddly few UAW workers that are left.
That's if the workers are given properly fitting parts and designs to assemble. UAW workers get blame for GM's shortcomings and lack of forsight.
>Obama knows it. Just does not want to alienate any of his voter base. He is smart enough to know that 12 million illegals given the opportunity
The American people are too short-sighted to see what's coming with the politics. I feel we have the least-prepared executive ever.
>re the instrument makers...
The story that doesn't get told is that the company wanted to replace the craftsmen who build the instruments by hand with machinery and people who don't have the skills but can get the part together. We own one of the prestrike brass instruments. The post strike instruments don't have the same tonal quality. These are not brass instruments people buy for $295 for elementary school band.
This work is not the same as assembling parts on a Civic in W. Liberty, Ohio. It's more like hand shaping the metal and parts as they're being assembled to build a specialty car--maybe like the earlier Jaguar in Britain (were they hand assembled?).
The point isn't that the workers wanted outrageous concessions. Indeed, the company wanted them to take a substantial pay cut. In fact it sounds the same as AK Steel, Middletown, where they wanted all kinds of concessions from the union. The hard-nosed approach is taken to induce a strike or lockout so they can replace the union, make lots more profits for the company, and the workers are just SOL.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Why would I pay $22k for a Malibu worth $11K in a two years when I can pay $25K for a metric worth $18K in two years? More Metric money goes INTO the car.Domestic money goes into people's pockets at the expense of the car. Thanks to the UAW.
In fact Toyota employs more people in the US than GM. People that now would never consider joining the UAW after witnessing the fallout from all the strikes. $54,000 a year pension plus Medical and you want me to pay how much more per car to make that payment to someone sitting on their [non-permissible content removed] after 25 years of unskilled labor? No thanks I will CHOOSE the charity I give to,
Exactly why I primarily buy used. Buying my 07 Expedition used saved me $20k. I'm thinking with new car sales being so flat, at some point used values will increase to a point that buying new will make sense again.
There is truth to that. But, if GM had not buckled under for decades and let UAW wages/benefits get out of whack adding unnecessary cost to build cars, then top Management (if they were smart enough) could have put those extra dollars into engineering and better parts and closer tolerances. So, UAW still shares blame.
That is why they are going down hard, they are as stupid as the Eastern Airline mechanics, who were the higheest paid in the industry, and wanted more...while they did not do it by themselves, they certainly helped to drive Eastern out of business...and I do wonder how many other airlines picked them up when they saw they had worked for Eastern...oh, about as many import automakers will pcik up when they see "worked for UAW for 20 years" on the job applications...zero...
What is amazing is that they simply are too stupid to see it coming...talk about sheeple...what else do you call a UAW member who strikes in the plant that actually makes good cars???...and I am supoosed to believe they are independent thinkers...
The epitome of people who cannot think on their own is the UAW sheeple...they are jumping off their own cliff willingly, still believeing that the guy who sweeps floors is worth (whatever)...(if it is not the $35/hour, please correct my number...please be sure to add in the cost of benefits, as I want to know WHAT THEY COST GM)...
They had a good run...now it's time to bring sanity back to American life and destroy the UAW...maybe in 3-4 generations, the thought of what the UAW did to American auto compnaies will finally be filtered out of human DNA, because anyone who maintains that welfare entitlement attitude is a dormant virus that will destroy any company they "work for", or "show up for a full paycheck and eat donuts for"...