Did you recently rush to buy a new vehicle before tariff-related price hikes? A reporter is looking to speak with shoppers who felt pressure to act quickly due to expected cost increases; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com for more details by 4/24.
I don't think that too many people would prefer 1979 to 2009. I'm certainly in better shape now than I was then.
1979 was HORRIBLE. I spent more than I made trying to run a farm in MN. Those that made $32k in 1979 were UPPER MIDDLE CLASS. That was far more than Carpenters Union scale in MN which was $12 per hour. I was lucky to get two weeks work out of 4 weeks. By 1980 I had spent all my savings from working in Alaska and called my old boss to get my job back. I was on the plane back to Anchorage the next day. I picked a horrible time to go into farming. How was I to know that Carter the peanut farmer would destroy the small farmers of America with his failed policies?
Anyone know what top scale was for the unskilled UAW worker in 1979. Here is some of the scoop on the UAW leadership in the late 1970s. For those that like to blame the wrong President for the demise of the UAW.
The decline of the UAW took a decisive turn in the late 1970s when the auto industry faced a crisis because of mounting international competition and recession. UAW president Douglas Fraser made an unprecedented agreement to accept wage cuts and plant closures to bail out Chrysler in 1979. Wage cuts and shutdowns at Ford and General Motors followed.
At the same time the UAW collaborated with the auto companies to cut costs by slashing jobs and wages at parts plants. The UAW engineered the defeat of a series of strikes by workers at auto parts plants, accepting huge cuts in pay at companies such as Motor City Automotive, Plymouth Stamping, C M Smillie and others. In many cases the UAW permitted union locals to be broken and the UAW workers fired.
Just like now they are selling out the new hires and retirees to protect the featherbedders that control the UAW.
Here is more for your reading enjoyment about these high moral UAW workers Rocky idolizes. From a 2003 article:
Today, the UAW has 638,722 members, down from 1.5 million in 1979, a 57 percent decline. Union membership continued to fall during the last decade. In Indiana, which leads the nation with 21 percent of workers concentrated in manufacturing, there were 100,000 auto parts workers during the boom of the 1990s. Since 1998, however, some 60 auto parts and machine shops have closed their doors.
While the actual dues paying membership of the UAW has declined, the income of the union apparatus has remained relatively stable. It has been able to sustain its income through increasing individual dues and obtaining direct handouts from the employers and the government. UAW assets topped $1.096 billion in 2000, most of it in the union’s huge, but rarely used, strike fund.
Meanwhile graft, cronyism, nepotism and corruption flourish throughout the union apparatus. For example, a group of autoworkers charged that UAW leaders in Local 594 in Pontiac, Michigan conspired to extend the 1997 strike at GM’s Truck and Bus plant in order to win fraudulent overtime payments worth $200,000 and jobs for relatives.
I was only 9 years old in 1979, so I guess I was too young to really know what was going on with the economy. I do remember my Mom buying a house down in southern MD, a 45x25 2br/1ba rancher with a carport and covered front porch on one acre, for $54K. Mortgage was $389 per month. And then she got homesick and we were running up to see my grandparents every other weekend, 38 miles away. As gas prices shot above $1.00 per gallon, Mom got fed up with her '75 LeMans which wasn't aging well, and in Feb 1980 traded it for a new Malibu coupe that could hit lower 20's on the highway.
1979 was actually a very strong year for the auto industry, and the third year in a row that Oldsmobile broke 1 million units. I think Chrysler division had its best year ever up to that point. But, let's not talk about Dodge or Plymouth. :sick: So evidently, it was a good year for some people. Now 1980 was a different story. And 1981-83, even worse.
So today's trimming of average factory pay to $12 an hour is a good thing. I overheard two guys in the bank line this week talking about how they were working $5 an hour jobs. Then they remarked how they were so happy to be able to make rent and utilities on their $5 an hour jobs.
The difference is not in weight of steel or parts count or however they sort the % out. The difference is in jobs. You don't need college to work for Honda and you can count on the Accord sales dollars being put to work in Japan in figuring how to assemble cars in the US with robots only.
Maybe American manufacturers will prosper greatly when wages reset to $12. Profitability will be there to support R&D. They will be able to afford Engineers to develop the competitive product technology that will win back a lot of the lost business. Maybe not.
In the future, the envy I had for blue collar auto workers, will not be as often felt by those in my same position. I was laid off by Ted Kennedy and slick Willie from developing the engine for the Raptor and landed a job at GM working beside HS dropouts in the UAW that were making from 20 to 50% more than me with my 14 years of degreed engineering experience. They knew their days were numbered, though, because most of them made sure their kids got college degrees. Many bought $40k Tahoes every other year too, and had nice big boats that they towed with the Tahoes. A lot of this will still persist in the new GM. In the revised contract, a maximum of 25% of the UAW headcount can be below the $28 an hour level. With skilled trades making way over $28, the average UAW wage will still be $26, or about 2003 levels.
I certainly can't recall any gas shortage during Carter.
Oh, I sure do. It was the 2nd supply disruption of the 70s. (The 1st, which was caused by the OPEC oil embargo, took place in early '74.)
The immediate cause was political turmoil in Iran following the overthrow of the Shah in early 1979, but it was aggravated by a regulatory changes. After the price hikes of the early 70s, the government slapped price controls on "old oil", which was oil pumped from wells drilled before 1973. In late '78 or early '79, the Carter Administration tweaked the regulations to lift the price controls on any old oil that was used to make jet fuel. The government wanted to guarantee jet fuel availability during the 1979 vacation season, but the end result was to encourage refineries to make less gasoline & more jet fuel from every barrel of oil. That only made things worse for motorists.
The difference is not in weight of steel or parts count or however they sort the % out. The difference is in jobs. You don't need college to work for Honda and you can count on the Accord sales dollars being put to work in Japan in figuring how to assemble cars in the US with robots only.
The problem is that when your competitor figures how to be much more efficient than you, you need to learn to be more competitive or you are a dinosaur that is going to die. Even if Honda and Toyota weren't here, some entrepreneur was going to figure out how to make cars using automated techniques with no union, and they would eat the lunch of a company like GM. Being inefficient is no way to stay competitive, that's what happened to the old Soviet Union and eastern Europe. The Germans were appalled at what they had to absorb when they reunified and got a good look at East Germany.
My biggest worries for the new GM are:
1 - even with the shedding of costs and debt, they need much better products. That is going to take billions of dollars and at least a few years. A tough one. 2 - with the UAW not all that neutered, if the new GM overcomes hurdle #1 and starts being successful and profitable, the union will be waiting to pounce and "share the success". Unless the union is either destroyed or changes its fundamental DNA (not likely), they are a huge danger for GM.
There a lot of that sentiment that runs deep in the older generations. Who was that famous meet the press and NBC news person - who dies last June - Tim Russert. Just a few days before he died he was being interviewed and his dad came up as a subject. Tim had bought his dad a new Ford Crown Vic, He said that his dad liked them, and Tim was remarking how he asked his dad if he could get him a "nice lexus or mercedes", and Tim said his dad replied: "aw, we beat those guys in the war".
I actually bought a new miata for my wife in 2001, nice car, but not any type of long distance driver, my hands were numb after driving from FL to NJ for a traiing school in 2002. The UAW built ElDorado or Fleetwood would have been much easier on the hands and quieter as well!
that was great money back then...i hear pontiac, MI has 27% of population under poverty, which will be even worse when there GM plant goes down....most of us will be poor with a few rich in usa in future
if i can help it i DO NOT BUY ANYTHING MADE IN CHINA....we are in a economic war with them...my first priority is the united States and keeping whatever we have left here...we have lost enough mfg jobs and arent really self sufficient anymore
and it makes me sad to hear about mich and midwest going into a severe recession and i would rather buy a car assembled there and help out a little...we just have this me first attitude in this country
I have known people with "I'll never buy a_____" from both sides of the WWII aisle. Used to work with one who thought nothing of buying Japanese but was adamant that German cars were not to be even considered. Meanwhile I knew a guy with a VW who wouldn't buy Japanese because of Pearl Harbor. Go figure.
My FIL is a buy American sort, though not for the reasons you mentioned (even though he did fight in WWII). He's been a long time CWA member and involved with the local union. Even though he's long retired from Verizon, up until a few years ago he still made it down to the local union hall once a week.
Last TV he bought was a Zenith, I believe. Even though they were being made off shore at least, in his mind, they were American because of the brand name.
Couple of years ago we helped him buy a new car. Had to be American (whatever that meant). We managed to get him into a Buick Lacrosse, though I have no idea how much of that vehicle was American content or even where is was assembled. He didn't either but, in his mind, the Buick was American, and that's all that mattered.
When Gandhi was doing all that, an average Indian just wanted to have clothing on his body and two meals everyday. But it continued after independence in 1947....India in the 60s and 70s was fixated by the Russian centralized make-every-thing-yourself model. We had years long waiting list for telephone connections, just two models of cars available (no change in the model for thirty - yes, thirty - years), only two TV channels, both owned by the Government. One of them would broadcast programming for farmers at prime time.
Inevitably, India came close to bankruptcy in 1991, and I remember attending a presentation by the then Prime Minister of India promising opening up of Indian economy (I had moved to Japan by that time) who was trying to raise money for India. We skeptical Non-resident Indians asked him "How do we know that you are not just bulls****g us, and will not go back to your old ways the minute your a*s gets bailed out?", and he said "We cannot go back - because there is nothing to go back to".
Today you can pretty much get everything in India off the shelf (as you would in the US), and there has been a massive reduction in poverty. So much for self-reliance improving quality of life.....
Of course, one can make a philosophical point - Maybe Gandhi wanted India to live with nature (the current India is trying to compete with US to wreck nature....) and just focusing on clothing, shelter and food. In his world, there would be no autos...
Couple of years ago we helped him buy a new car. Had to be American (whatever that meant). We managed to get him into a Buick Lacrosse, though I have no idea how much of that vehicle was American content or even where is was assembled. He didn't either but, in his mind, the Buick was American, and that's all that mattered.
I think the Buick LaCrosse is built in Canada, along with the Chevy Impala. A few years back, I remember it being said that the Buicks (Century/Regal back then) and Impalas were a better bet than the Olds Intrigue and Pontiac Grand Prix, because the Canadian factory was much more modern and up-to-date. The Olds/Pontiacs were built in Kansas, I believe, and the factory wasn't as high quality.
Now when the 2004 Grand Prix came out, it was much-improved, so I don't know where it was built. Well, much-improved in reliability at least...many still consider it a miserable car to live with!
Last TV he bought was a Zenith, I believe. Even though they were being made off shore at least, in his mind, they were American because of the brand name.
I remember my grandmother wanting to buy a 19" tv for her bedroom back around 1991 or so. She wanted a Zenith because it was "American", and they'd had good luck with Zeniths before. When we picked it up though, right on the box it said "Made in Mexico". She wasn't too happy. But still bought the tv.
A year or two after that, her living room tv, which was also a Zenith, self-destructed. This one was only about 5-6 years old. I have no idea where it had been made. Their Zenith before that dated back to 1972, and made it to around 1986 or 1987. And in a way, it's still with us. Granddad took the guts out and the sides off, and the fake slate top fit down perfectly on the base, and it made for a dandy coffee table!
It should be noted that the CAW split from the UAW for several good reasons.
Foremost was the fact that the UAW tried to force the automakers to shut down CAW plants to give the UAW factories the jobs. The CAW also did not like some of the "Thug" methods used by the UAW. When you take into consideration that it was the CAW plants that keep the ratings up for Domestic manufacturing it makes the CAW less of a problem than the UAW. So the split from the CAW was just a long line of cases where the UAW was not a "UNION" but a good old boys club for a few of the "FRIENDS" of the union bosses. The domestics cannot survive with the UAW in the picture. They are a cancer on the industry. Time for radiation treatment.
Oh, I remember it really well. After the Iranian Revolution in 1979, gasoline shot up to $1.29/gallon which was astronomical back then. Gasoline had been around 65-75 cents for regular in 1978. I remember odd/even rationing based on the numbers on your license plate. If something like that ever occurs again, I'm leaving the car at home and walking to work every day! I can't stand lines!
Well, Philadelphia is like 25% below the poverty level - a crying shame for a city that once was called "The Workshop of the World." Just about everything was made here at one time - Philco appliances, televisions, and radios, Stetson hats, Botany 500 suits, Budd railcars, Baldwin locomotives, ships, steel, pharmaceuticals, Disston saws, Fleer gum, Whitman's Chocolates, Breyer's Ice Cream, Jack Frost Sugar, Schmidt's and Ortleib's beer, Quaker Lace, Flexible Flyer sleds, Exide batteries, and countless other products - all gone. About the only things now manufactured in Philly are crack rocks, methamphetamine, and blunts.
My girlfriend bought a new LaCrosse in 2005 . It's an excellent car. I bought a new Cadillac DTS Performance two years ago. I also have an excellent circa-1986 Zenith console television that still delivers an awesome picture. Who needs HDTV?
I buy American cars because I prefer them over all others. The satisfaction of knowing that I'm helping out folks i the Midwest is a fringe benefit.
I think this "me-first" attitude developed with the Boomer-generation. Seems the Greatest Generation doted too much on their children and spoiled them. I believe that attitude was also reflected in the workforce. Prior generations didn't take their jobs for granted and did as good a job as they could for their employers. Employers saw this and provided for their employees. Today it's like, "Screw the Man! I'm gonna take him for all I can!" The employers are like, "Screw them! It's their fault they didn't get an education! They're a bunch of losers! I can boost my profit margins exponentially by shipping the jobs overseas! I don't care if it destroys the town my ancestors built over 100 years ago and plunges its population into abject poverty! I'm moving to a new 10,000 sq ft mansion in Florida where I won't have to see it!"
Who needs HDTV? Those who love 7.1 sound and blue-ray pictures. LaCosse is a good car for moving in comfort, but GM doesn't have something like evo, wrx, sti, 335i, g37, a5.
Have you ever watched/listened to a good 7.1 HTS? Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. I select and set up mid-range(under $3,500) systems for my friends every so often, and I have yet to have anyone say, "I sure miss my 27" CRT."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Have you ever watched/listened to a good 7.1 HTS? Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. I select and set up mid-range(under $3,500) systems for my friends every so often, and I have yet to have anyone say, "I sure miss my 27" CRT."
Doesn't do anything for me. My SIL has one, but he's a big sports fan. For the watching that I do, my 10+ year old CRT set does just fine. Not interested in professional sports, don't care to rent any Blue Ray HD disks, and much of the other so-called HD content is just std def stuff up-converted with all the artifacts associated with it.
I love mine. My son and I watch several BD movies per week. At least until my wife comes downstairs and tells us that the windows are rattling at the other end of the house... :P :P :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
This discussion has more off-topic side-tracks than a Neal Stephenson book.
"The UAW didn't introduce lemon after lemon, unattractive cars with fundamental -- and sometimes fatal -- flaws and poor maintenance records. The UAW didn't introduce the Pinto, the Cimarron and the Aspen -- all cars that were relegated to the junkyard, and rightfully so due to their incessant mechanical malfunctions.
The UAW didn't decide -- like so many companies in the corporate graveyard -- to emphasize the needs of its stockholders over the needs of its customers, paying out dividends instead of reinvesting the money in innovative products."
I buy American cars because I prefer them over all others.
Fair enough.
I think this "me-first" attitude developed with the Boomer-generation.
Huh? Didn't you just say that you buy American cars because you "prefer them over all others"? So wouldn't you say that you're putting yourself first?
Note that you did not say that although you really, really hunger for an E-class Mercedes Benz, you feel duty-bound to buy UAW-made cars. If you had, then the rest of us could (a) praise your unselfish patriotism or (b) laugh at your crazy behavior.
Nope. You've made it clear in this post & others that you buy what you like, which makes you no less & no more selfish than those of us who buy foreign brands. The only difference between you & the greediest boomer here (probably me) is your brand preference - not your motivation.
And that's fine with me. I believe that free markets work best when buyers shoot for maximum satisfaction & perceived value - not when they settle for second-best to make someone else happy.
At the end of the day, the customer is always right.
At the end of the day, the customer is always right.
That sounds like the statement of somebody who's never had to deal with them. :P I'll give you this much...they're always right as long as they're not trying to shoplift, switch pricetags, vandalize property, lie to you, pass you a bad check, commit identity fraud, pee in the fitting room, try to return a worn-out, stinky sweatshirt that's 10 years old that but they kept the receipt for, do a "dine and dash", call up at 1:30 at night and say their pizza hasn't been delivered yet when you closed at midnight and your last delivery was at 11:17, etc....
Still, I agree with your point about the customer buying the best product for their needs and putting their needs first. I just tend to roll my eyes at that "customer is always right" cliche.
I'm curious to see what folks here think in regards to how much blame should be put on the UAW for the demise of GM and Chrysler.
IMO, management bears the bulk of responsibility. They agreed to "unreasonable" UAW demands. They decided what cars to build. And they decided executive compensation, shareholder dividends, etc.
While Management has to take 60 percent of the blame, the UAW is not blameless by a long shot. 40 percent of the blame for the failure of the company can easily be placed on the union. A simple look at the timeline of MAJOR strikes shows how willingly the union forced management's hand in making concessions. Also realize that the years inbetween the strikes are really more significant than the strike years in that they're the ones where management was giving the union enough goodies that they didn't strike.
Steve - you sound like a divorce attorney for a freespending wife - "It's not my client's fault that the family got into financial troubles. The husband didn't earn enough money to support my client's needs."
I'm curious to see what folks here think in regards to how much blame should be put on the UAW for the demise of GM and Chrysler.
I'd put it at
UAW - 50% Mgmt - 50%
Rationale: While management is hugely to blame, it is tough to agree to risk the entire company when the gun is to your head. The UAW forced the management to make life or death choices and the management took the easy way out which was the long term mistake. When your company is at risk of total failure and the UAW wants something expensive, but they can shut you down and cost you $$billions, it is like being held hostage. So the UAW IMHO can share a 50% blame. It is their greed that got them to where we are, which is why my sympathies for the poor UAW who are losing their jobs are somewhat muted.
Hey, I was just quoting the commentator. :shades: I gotta do something to try to keep y'all a little on topic.
"The CEO of Ford Canada says the company is “anxious“ to sit down with the Canadian Auto Workers union to negotiate a competitive new labour deal.
David Mondragon says Ford Canada needs to bring its labour costs in line with its competitors in Canada and the United States."
I'd go along with this. Shareholders, who are the actual owners of a company, pay management the big bucks to make the hard decisions. As far as the Big 3 are concerned, the shareholders really haven't gotten value for their money.
I agree. I've worked with the UAW & with GM. What has been done goes back to what was called during the atomic age in the 1950's as "Mutually Assured Destruction".
I see both parties as equally at fault. The UAW had so much power at the GM plant I worked in they were basically running the place. The contract book was as thick as a Bible on onion skin paper! Mgt was at fault for agreeing to it but the strikes forced their hand when cash was there to be made. The cash is not there to be made now and their destruction is assured.
The bailouts, BK, and Gov't intervention is only going to last for a year or two before we have to pull the plug on the life support.
Management: 1. Cowardly (yielded to union demands in short-term fixes rather than long-term, unlike say Caterpillar) 2. Selfish (not much explanation necessary, just look at their compensation over the years) 3. Stupid (Cimaron, Aztek and other technological wonders, buy Saab for who know what, abandon small car market, and always, without fault, opting for short-term solutions)
UAW: 1. Greedy (don't have to describe that anymore) 2. Selfish (all agreements focused maximizing short-term gain over long-term viability) 3. Stupid (how in the world could they go on strike in 2007 is beyond me).
It was pretty much collaborative effort. Although I trully despise UAW for doing what they did, I blame the management much more for simple reason - they had the purse and they ultimately had the power, decision and they were paid to take care of the company's future. It would mean breaking the back of the union's power, but if If CAT's management could do it, so could have GMs.
To summarize my position, UAW is greedy, stupid and selfish. Their demands and stances were completely outlandish, unreasonable and irresponsible. But it was not their fault that GM's management was cowardly, and even more stupid and selfish, and succumbed to UAW's power, ultimately destroying the company.
You're all missing one other culprit - government. The laws favor unions over business too strongly. The playing field is not level. The the unions also likely have more political clout, although this will change as union power and membership declines.
Mgt - 50% (leadership, purchasing and engineering still most at fault) UAW- 30% (not just wages and benefits, but reluctance to ease work rules) Gov - 20% (Congress always puts votes and payola over best interest of country)
I do agree on the government role, but it's less. If it were as much, all US companies would be going bust, not just GM. There are some thriving Midwest companies, such as Caterpillar, Deere, or even to extent Boeing. Yes, they do occasionally fall to recession and have layoffs - but that's not the point. The point is surviving and long-term prospects. GM was doomed 20 years ago (maybe not doomed - but the trouble was obvious), yet it acted like nothing was happening.
Adjustment: Management: 65% UAW: 25% Government: 10% (States: 75% of the share, Federal: 25%, why? labor laws are mostly state issue, Fed is mostly to blame for general policy issues, also important, but not as critical in GMs case).
i never knew philly had so much mfg and 25% are living in poverty...so i guess it is important to help americans and buy goods made here because right now we have too big a trade deficit..if there were more jobs available there would be a lot less drug use and crime
i agree about the worker attitudes and employers...we want to get paid w/o working and employers want us to pay them for working haha...i married a filipino and i notice the asians dont have that entitlement attitude
i think the union screwed GM over years and GM had less $$$ to invest in better products....and i also think people care more about themselves than country if they buy foreign made goods if decent domestic products are available so please dont defend your selfishness or indifference to me...if we didnt have such a trade deficit it would be different..china laughed at geithner when he told them their investments are safe...it is pretty pathetic when our sec of state and sec of treasury are begging china to keep buying our govt bonds, it just shows that we fallen very far..our grandchildren will be moving to china to open american restaurants
Made of parts from where? Parts assembled in US so they can be termed made in US? By companies that are foreign but sited here for the purpose of supplied parts to Honda?
Sorting my shirts from Bass and Van Heusen, I noticed one saying something about assembled in Honduras of US parts. What does that mean?
if there were more jobs available there would be a lot less drug use and crime
I don't think so. When we were at 4.5% unemployment the drug trade was booming. You know the saying. "Cocaine is god's way of telling you, that you have too much money". The drug dealers will feel the pinch like all the rest. Especially in Detroit when the fat cat UAW guys cannot afford to buy.
Oh jeez, not the "knockdown kit" canard again. I had to replace the driver's side mirror on my Tennessee-built Sentra a few years ago, so I found a replacement at the junkyard. Turns out the replacement didn't quite fit since the Sentra I took it from was built in Japan. Had a similar issue with the front hub on my Isuzu pickup once.
"I just tend to roll my eyes at that "customer is always right" cliche"...I kinda believe that the statement "assumes" what the legal field often calls the "reasonable person" theory...
If they bring back a 10 year old shirt, or wear a new garment and try to bring it back wrinkled and stained...they are NOT right and should be thrown out of the store...losing that kind of "business" can only HELP the bottom line by getting rid of the "trash"...
In my business, we often talk about all the money we "MADE" by sending the P-I-T-A client down the street to the competition, meaning that some clients aggravation are simply NOT worth the money they pay you...
In criminal defense work, which I don't do, there is an interesting paradox...if you cut a client a break and do a $3500 trial for, say, $1500, they are on the phone every day, using up more of your time than they are worth...yet, if you charge them the full fee of $3500, those people just leave you alone and wait for your instructions...it kinda reinforces the adage "No good deed goes unpunished"...
Then there is the other paradox...the person who says to me that he would pay the full fee but he simply does not have it, I will cut a break if they "sound sincere"...but the poor client who walks in and tells me in the first breath, "I'm poor and you owe it to me to do this pro bono" will get thrown out the door faster than a case of swine flu...they exhibit the same welfare entitlement attitude of the UAW, the difference ebing that I have the absolute right and discretion to dump them like a hot potato...NOBODY tells me I owe them anything for free, period...if I do it out of compassion, that is my choice...but for some cheap-sh*t welfare deadbeat to tell me to do it for free gets thrown out on his a**...
At least I don't have to deal with REAL members of the UAW, as we got rid of Ford and GM a few years ago...whew!!!
Buying American cars is really a misleading term. Is the Ford made in Mexico more American than the Honda made in Ohio? At least American workers are assembling the Hondas and Acuras-- that should account for something.
At least American workers are assembling the Hondas and Acuras-- that should account for something.
And don't forget the local tax base that is being supported, as well as all the other jobs generated, restaurants, schools, doctors, dentists, etc. etc. I'd much rather spend my money so it will support USA jobs and USA cities.
From my sister who had 2 3-series bmws. That was one of the reasons she ditched the 2nd one. unfortunately she bought a prius. she loves it, but they're not for me...
As for the CTS, it's my wife's car, and she's not into car shows, unless its with the 1968 Convertible. I'm not driving anythig this year.
From my sister who had 2 3-series bmws. That was one of the reasons she ditched the 2nd one.
No offense, but your sis got hosed but good. You can install a Brembo big brake upgrade for that kind of money. The last time I spent over $1000 for a repair was back in 2005; I had put off changing a noisy idler pulley on my wife's 128,000 mile 1997 528i, and my procrastination was rewarded by the pulley bearing disintegrating and taking out both belts and the fan shroud. I decided to let my independent BMW tech handle the repairs. While he had the car we decided to replace the radiator, the water pump, and the remaining idler pulley as a precaution. My tech also found and replaced a bad tie rod and had the car aligned. The total repair cost? $1161
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
said that Roger Penske is buying Saturn, everything EXCEPT the manufacturing facilities...it sounds like he wants the name and ready-made dealer network, but will contract out the making of the cars...
I wonder why he doesn't want the Spring Hill factory???
Comments
1979 was HORRIBLE. I spent more than I made trying to run a farm in MN. Those that made $32k in 1979 were UPPER MIDDLE CLASS. That was far more than Carpenters Union scale in MN which was $12 per hour. I was lucky to get two weeks work out of 4 weeks. By 1980 I had spent all my savings from working in Alaska and called my old boss to get my job back. I was on the plane back to Anchorage the next day. I picked a horrible time to go into farming. How was I to know that Carter the peanut farmer would destroy the small farmers of America with his failed policies?
Anyone know what top scale was for the unskilled UAW worker in 1979. Here is some of the scoop on the UAW leadership in the late 1970s. For those that like to blame the wrong President for the demise of the UAW.
The decline of the UAW took a decisive turn in the late 1970s when the auto industry faced a crisis because of mounting international competition and recession. UAW president Douglas Fraser made an unprecedented agreement to accept wage cuts and plant closures to bail out Chrysler in 1979. Wage cuts and shutdowns at Ford and General Motors followed.
At the same time the UAW collaborated with the auto companies to cut costs by slashing jobs and wages at parts plants. The UAW engineered the defeat of a series of strikes by workers at auto parts plants, accepting huge cuts in pay at companies such as Motor City Automotive, Plymouth Stamping, C M Smillie and others. In many cases the UAW permitted union locals to be broken and the UAW workers fired.
Just like now they are selling out the new hires and retirees to protect the featherbedders that control the UAW.
Here is more for your reading enjoyment about these high moral UAW workers Rocky idolizes. From a 2003 article:
Today, the UAW has 638,722 members, down from 1.5 million in 1979, a 57 percent decline. Union membership continued to fall during the last decade. In Indiana, which leads the nation with 21 percent of workers concentrated in manufacturing, there were 100,000 auto parts workers during the boom of the 1990s. Since 1998, however, some 60 auto parts and machine shops have closed their doors.
While the actual dues paying membership of the UAW has declined, the income of the union apparatus has remained relatively stable. It has been able to sustain its income through increasing individual dues and obtaining direct handouts from the employers and the government. UAW assets topped $1.096 billion in 2000, most of it in the union’s huge, but rarely used, strike fund.
Meanwhile graft, cronyism, nepotism and corruption flourish throughout the union apparatus. For example, a group of autoworkers charged that UAW leaders in Local 594 in Pontiac, Michigan conspired to extend the 1997 strike at GM’s Truck and Bus plant in order to win fraudulent overtime payments worth $200,000 and jobs for relatives.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jun2003/uaw-j10.shtml
1979 was actually a very strong year for the auto industry, and the third year in a row that Oldsmobile broke 1 million units. I think Chrysler division had its best year ever up to that point. But, let's not talk about Dodge or Plymouth. :sick: So evidently, it was a good year for some people. Now 1980 was a different story. And 1981-83, even worse.
The difference is not in weight of steel or parts count or however they sort the % out. The difference is in jobs. You don't need college to work for Honda and you can count on the Accord sales dollars being put to work in Japan in figuring how to assemble cars in the US with robots only.
Maybe American manufacturers will prosper greatly when wages reset to $12. Profitability will be there to support R&D. They will be able to afford Engineers to develop the competitive product technology that will win back a lot of the lost business. Maybe not.
In the future, the envy I had for blue collar auto workers, will not be as often felt by those in my same position. I was laid off by Ted Kennedy and slick Willie from developing the engine for the Raptor and landed a job at GM working beside HS dropouts in the UAW that were making from 20 to 50% more than me with my 14 years of degreed engineering experience. They knew their days were numbered, though, because most of them made sure their kids got college degrees. Many bought $40k Tahoes every other year too, and had nice big boats that they towed with the Tahoes. A lot of this will still persist in the new GM. In the revised contract, a maximum of 25% of the UAW headcount can be below the $28 an hour level. With skilled trades making way over $28, the average UAW wage will still be $26, or about 2003 levels.
Oh, I sure do. It was the 2nd supply disruption of the 70s. (The 1st, which was caused by the OPEC oil embargo, took place in early '74.)
The immediate cause was political turmoil in Iran following the overthrow of the Shah in early 1979, but it was aggravated by a regulatory changes. After the price hikes of the early 70s, the government slapped price controls on "old oil", which was oil pumped from wells drilled before 1973. In late '78 or early '79, the Carter Administration tweaked the regulations to lift the price controls on any old oil that was used to make jet fuel. The government wanted to guarantee jet fuel availability during the 1979 vacation season, but the end result was to encourage refineries to make less gasoline & more jet fuel from every barrel of oil. That only made things worse for motorists.
The problem is that when your competitor figures how to be much more efficient than you, you need to learn to be more competitive or you are a dinosaur that is going to die. Even if Honda and Toyota weren't here, some entrepreneur was going to figure out how to make cars using automated techniques with no union, and they would eat the lunch of a company like GM. Being inefficient is no way to stay competitive, that's what happened to the old Soviet Union and eastern Europe. The Germans were appalled at what they had to absorb when they reunified and got a good look at East Germany.
My biggest worries for the new GM are:
1 - even with the shedding of costs and debt, they need much better products. That is going to take billions of dollars and at least a few years. A tough one.
2 - with the UAW not all that neutered, if the new GM overcomes hurdle #1 and starts being successful and profitable, the union will be waiting to pounce and "share the success". Unless the union is either destroyed or changes its fundamental DNA (not likely), they are a huge danger for GM.
I actually bought a new miata for my wife in 2001, nice car, but not any type of long distance driver, my hands were numb after driving from FL to NJ for a traiing school in 2002. The UAW built ElDorado or Fleetwood would have been much easier on the hands and quieter as well!
My FIL is a buy American sort, though not for the reasons you mentioned (even though he did fight in WWII). He's been a long time CWA member and involved with the local union. Even though he's long retired from Verizon, up until a few years ago he still made it down to the local union hall once a week.
Last TV he bought was a Zenith, I believe. Even though they were being made off shore at least, in his mind, they were American because of the brand name.
Couple of years ago we helped him buy a new car. Had to be American (whatever that meant). We managed to get him into a Buick Lacrosse, though I have no idea how much of that vehicle was American content or even where is was assembled. He didn't either but, in his mind, the Buick was American, and that's all that mattered.
So you are suggesting the Average UAW worker could compete mentally with an average inbred!
When Gandhi was doing all that, an average Indian just wanted to have clothing on his body and two meals everyday.
But it continued after independence in 1947....India in the 60s and 70s was fixated by the Russian centralized make-every-thing-yourself model. We had years long waiting list for telephone connections, just two models of cars available (no change in the model for thirty - yes, thirty - years), only two TV channels, both owned by the Government. One of them would broadcast programming for farmers at prime time.
Inevitably, India came close to bankruptcy in 1991, and I remember attending a presentation by the then Prime Minister of India promising opening up of Indian economy (I had moved to Japan by that time) who was trying to raise money for India. We skeptical Non-resident Indians asked him "How do we know that you are not just bulls****g us, and will not go back to your old ways the minute your a*s gets bailed out?", and he said "We cannot go back - because there is nothing to go back to".
Today you can pretty much get everything in India off the shelf (as you would in the US), and there has been a massive reduction in poverty. So much for self-reliance improving quality of life.....
Of course, one can make a philosophical point - Maybe Gandhi wanted India to live with nature (the current India is trying to compete with US to wreck nature....) and just focusing on clothing, shelter and food. In his world, there would be no autos...
I think the Buick LaCrosse is built in Canada, along with the Chevy Impala. A few years back, I remember it being said that the Buicks (Century/Regal back then) and Impalas were a better bet than the Olds Intrigue and Pontiac Grand Prix, because the Canadian factory was much more modern and up-to-date. The Olds/Pontiacs were built in Kansas, I believe, and the factory wasn't as high quality.
Now when the 2004 Grand Prix came out, it was much-improved, so I don't know where it was built. Well, much-improved in reliability at least...many still consider it a miserable car to live with!
Last TV he bought was a Zenith, I believe. Even though they were being made off shore at least, in his mind, they were American because of the brand name.
I remember my grandmother wanting to buy a 19" tv for her bedroom back around 1991 or so. She wanted a Zenith because it was "American", and they'd had good luck with Zeniths before. When we picked it up though, right on the box it said "Made in Mexico". She wasn't too happy. But still bought the tv.
A year or two after that, her living room tv, which was also a Zenith, self-destructed. This one was only about 5-6 years old. I have no idea where it had been made. Their Zenith before that dated back to 1972, and made it to around 1986 or 1987. And in a way, it's still with us. Granddad took the guts out and the sides off, and the fake slate top fit down perfectly on the base, and it made for a dandy coffee table!
Foremost was the fact that the UAW tried to force the automakers to shut down CAW plants to give the UAW factories the jobs. The CAW also did not like some of the "Thug" methods used by the UAW. When you take into consideration that it was the CAW plants that keep the ratings up for Domestic manufacturing it makes the CAW less of a problem than the UAW. So the split from the CAW was just a long line of cases where the UAW was not a "UNION" but a good old boys club for a few of the "FRIENDS" of the union bosses. The domestics cannot survive with the UAW in the picture. They are a cancer on the industry. Time for radiation treatment.
I think this "me-first" attitude developed with the Boomer-generation. Seems the Greatest Generation doted too much on their children and spoiled them. I believe that attitude was also reflected in the workforce. Prior generations didn't take their jobs for granted and did as good a job as they could for their employers. Employers saw this and provided for their employees. Today it's like, "Screw the Man! I'm gonna take him for all I can!" The employers are like, "Screw them! It's their fault they didn't get an education! They're a bunch of losers! I can boost my profit margins exponentially by shipping the jobs overseas! I don't care if it destroys the town my ancestors built over 100 years ago and plunges its population into abject poverty! I'm moving to a new 10,000 sq ft mansion in Florida where I won't have to see it!"
Those who love 7.1 sound and blue-ray pictures.
LaCosse is a good car for moving in comfort, but GM doesn't have something like evo, wrx, sti, 335i, g37, a5.
Have you ever watched/listened to a good 7.1 HTS? Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. I select and set up mid-range(under $3,500) systems for my friends every so often, and I have yet to have anyone say, "I sure miss my 27" CRT."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My thoughts exactly. The closest thing GM offers in that class that I might entertain is the CTS.
Doesn't do anything for me. My SIL has one, but he's a big sports fan. For the watching that I do, my 10+ year old CRT set does just fine. Not interested in professional sports, don't care to rent any Blue Ray HD disks, and much of the other so-called HD content is just std def stuff up-converted with all the artifacts associated with it.
I love mine. My son and I watch several BD movies per week. At least until my wife comes downstairs and tells us that the windows are rattling at the other end of the house... :P :P :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
"The UAW didn't introduce lemon after lemon, unattractive cars with fundamental -- and sometimes fatal -- flaws and poor maintenance records. The UAW didn't introduce the Pinto, the Cimarron and the Aspen -- all cars that were relegated to the junkyard, and rightfully so due to their incessant mechanical malfunctions.
The UAW didn't decide -- like so many companies in the corporate graveyard -- to emphasize the needs of its stockholders over the needs of its customers, paying out dividends instead of reinvesting the money in innovative products."
Not all blame should be placed on UAW (Port Clinton News Herald)
Fair enough.
I think this "me-first" attitude developed with the Boomer-generation.
Huh? Didn't you just say that you buy American cars because you "prefer them over all others"? So wouldn't you say that you're putting yourself first?
Note that you did not say that although you really, really hunger for an E-class Mercedes Benz, you feel duty-bound to buy UAW-made cars. If you had, then the rest of us could (a) praise your unselfish patriotism or (b) laugh at your crazy behavior.
Nope. You've made it clear in this post & others that you buy what you like, which makes you no less & no more selfish than those of us who buy foreign brands. The only difference between you & the greediest boomer here (probably me) is your brand preference - not your motivation.
And that's fine with me. I believe that free markets work best when buyers shoot for maximum satisfaction & perceived value - not when they settle for second-best to make someone else happy.
At the end of the day, the customer is always right.
That sounds like the statement of somebody who's never had to deal with them. :P I'll give you this much...they're always right as long as they're not trying to shoplift, switch pricetags, vandalize property, lie to you, pass you a bad check, commit identity fraud, pee in the fitting room, try to return a worn-out, stinky sweatshirt that's 10 years old that but they kept the receipt for, do a "dine and dash", call up at 1:30 at night and say their pizza hasn't been delivered yet when you closed at midnight and your last delivery was at 11:17, etc....
Still, I agree with your point about the customer buying the best product for their needs and putting their needs first. I just tend to roll my eyes at that "customer is always right" cliche.
I'm curious to see what folks here think in regards to how much blame should be put on the UAW for the demise of GM and Chrysler.
IMO, management bears the bulk of responsibility. They agreed to "unreasonable" UAW demands. They decided what cars to build. And they decided executive compensation, shareholder dividends, etc.
UAW 25%
Mgmt 75%
While Management has to take 60 percent of the blame, the UAW is not blameless by a long shot. 40 percent of the blame for the failure of the company can easily be placed on the union. A simple look at the timeline of MAJOR strikes shows how willingly the union forced management's hand in making concessions. Also realize that the years inbetween the strikes are really more significant than the strike years in that they're the ones where management was giving the union enough goodies that they didn't strike.
Steve - you sound like a divorce attorney for a freespending wife -
"It's not my client's fault that the family got into financial troubles. The husband didn't earn enough money to support my client's needs."
I'd put it at
UAW - 50%
Mgmt - 50%
Rationale: While management is hugely to blame, it is tough to agree to risk the entire company when the gun is to your head. The UAW forced the management to make life or death choices and the management took the easy way out which was the long term mistake. When your company is at risk of total failure and the UAW wants something expensive, but they can shut you down and cost you $$billions, it is like being held hostage. So the UAW IMHO can share a 50% blame. It is their greed that got them to where we are, which is why my sympathies for the poor UAW who are losing their jobs are somewhat muted.
"The CEO of Ford Canada says the company is “anxious“ to sit down with the Canadian Auto Workers union to negotiate a competitive new labour deal.
David Mondragon says Ford Canada needs to bring its labour costs in line with its competitors in Canada and the United States."
Ford wants new deal with CAW (Calgary Sun)
Mgmt 75%
I'd go along with this. Shareholders, who are the actual owners of a company, pay management the big bucks to make the hard decisions. As far as the Big 3 are concerned, the shareholders really haven't gotten value for their money.
UAW - 50%
Mgmt - 50%
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\- - \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
I agree. I've worked with the UAW & with GM. What has been done goes back to what was called during the atomic age in the 1950's as "Mutually Assured Destruction".
I see both parties as equally at fault. The UAW had so much power at the GM plant I worked in they were basically running the place. The contract book was as thick as a Bible on onion skin paper! Mgt was at fault for agreeing to it but the strikes forced their hand when cash was there to be made. The cash is not there to be made now and their destruction is assured.
The bailouts, BK, and Gov't intervention is only going to last for a year or two before we have to pull the plug on the life support.
Mgmt 75%
Agree.
Management:
1. Cowardly (yielded to union demands in short-term fixes rather than long-term, unlike say Caterpillar)
2. Selfish (not much explanation necessary, just look at their compensation over the years)
3. Stupid (Cimaron, Aztek and other technological wonders, buy Saab for who know what, abandon small car market, and always, without fault, opting for short-term solutions)
UAW:
1. Greedy (don't have to describe that anymore)
2. Selfish (all agreements focused maximizing short-term gain over long-term viability)
3. Stupid (how in the world could they go on strike in 2007 is beyond me).
It was pretty much collaborative effort. Although I trully despise UAW for doing what they did, I blame the management much more for simple reason - they had the purse and they ultimately had the power, decision and they were paid to take care of the company's future. It would mean breaking the back of the union's power, but if If CAT's management could do it, so could have GMs.
To summarize my position, UAW is greedy, stupid and selfish. Their demands and stances were completely outlandish, unreasonable and irresponsible. But it was not their fault that GM's management was cowardly, and even more stupid and selfish, and succumbed to UAW's power, ultimately destroying the company.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Mgt - 50% (leadership, purchasing and engineering still most at fault)
UAW- 30% (not just wages and benefits, but reluctance to ease work rules)
Gov - 20% (Congress always puts votes and payola over best interest of country)
Adjustment:
Management: 65%
UAW: 25%
Government: 10% (States: 75% of the share, Federal: 25%, why? labor laws are mostly state issue, Fed is mostly to blame for general policy issues, also important, but not as critical in GMs case).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That's odd, all the Honda dealers in my area have huge "MADE IN USA" signs all over the lots.
Made of parts from where? Parts assembled in US so they can be termed made in US? By companies that are foreign but sited here for the purpose of supplied parts to Honda?
Sorting my shirts from Bass and Van Heusen, I noticed one saying something about assembled in Honduras of US parts. What does that mean?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't think so. When we were at 4.5% unemployment the drug trade was booming. You know the saying. "Cocaine is god's way of telling you, that you have too much money". The drug dealers will feel the pinch like all the rest. Especially in Detroit when the fat cat UAW guys cannot afford to buy.
Management: 65%
UAW: 25%
Government: 10%
Good point on the government, I forgot about them, so they also share part of this and I'd go along with your numbers.
If they bring back a 10 year old shirt, or wear a new garment and try to bring it back wrinkled and stained...they are NOT right and should be thrown out of the store...losing that kind of "business" can only HELP the bottom line by getting rid of the "trash"...
In my business, we often talk about all the money we "MADE" by sending the P-I-T-A client down the street to the competition, meaning that some clients aggravation are simply NOT worth the money they pay you...
In criminal defense work, which I don't do, there is an interesting paradox...if you cut a client a break and do a $3500 trial for, say, $1500, they are on the phone every day, using up more of your time than they are worth...yet, if you charge them the full fee of $3500, those people just leave you alone and wait for your instructions...it kinda reinforces the adage "No good deed goes unpunished"...
Then there is the other paradox...the person who says to me that he would pay the full fee but he simply does not have it, I will cut a break if they "sound sincere"...but the poor client who walks in and tells me in the first breath, "I'm poor and you owe it to me to do this pro bono" will get thrown out the door faster than a case of swine flu...they exhibit the same welfare entitlement attitude of the UAW, the difference ebing that I have the absolute right and discretion to dump them like a hot potato...NOBODY tells me I owe them anything for free, period...if I do it out of compassion, that is my choice...but for some cheap-sh*t welfare deadbeat to tell me to do it for free gets thrown out on his a**...
At least I don't have to deal with REAL members of the UAW, as we got rid of Ford and GM a few years ago...whew!!!
And don't forget the local tax base that is being supported, as well as all the other jobs generated, restaurants, schools, doctors, dentists, etc. etc. I'd much rather spend my money so it will support USA jobs and USA cities.
As for the CTS, it's my wife's car, and she's not into car shows, unless its with the 1968 Convertible. I'm not driving anythig this year.
No offense, but your sis got hosed but good. You can install a Brembo big brake upgrade for that kind of money. The last time I spent over $1000 for a repair was back in 2005; I had put off changing a noisy idler pulley on my wife's 128,000 mile 1997 528i, and my procrastination was rewarded by the pulley bearing disintegrating and taking out both belts and the fan shroud. I decided to let my independent BMW tech handle the repairs. While he had the car we decided to replace the radiator, the water pump, and the remaining idler pulley as a precaution. My tech also found and replaced a bad tie rod and had the car aligned. The total repair cost?
$1161
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I wonder why he doesn't want the Spring Hill factory???