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2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
... which is why IMHO there is only about a 50% chance of the new GM being ultimately successful. They will still need:
a) a full line of compelling products; and
b) lack of severe costs from legacy/UAW.
If the UAW manages to hold onto contracts in BK, they will be a big risk to the new GM. When they eventually see profits flowing from the new GM, they will want a bunch of $$ from the goose. And then the goose gets sick again.
This of course assumes compelling product of high quality. GM currently has a few competitive products, but the best mainstream cars are only about average and GM's best vehicles are the ones that will be sales challenged: trucks and SUVs. So getting good quality, refined product is not a slam dunk even if they ditch Hummer, Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, etc. GM is a long way from even 6-7 high quality mainstream non truck/SUV products such as Honda has:
Fit much better than Aveo
Civic much better than Cobalt/G5
Insight has no GM competitor
CRV much better than Vue/Equinox
Accord somewhat better than Malibu
Element much better than HHR
Ridgeline is not as good as GM trucks in some ways, so GM may is competitive here
These are the mainstream volume products, and GM is not competitive with hardly any of them. So there is a big challenge for the new company. They can sell big SUVs and Trucks but that market is going to be soft for quite a while. The new GM needs to get more well rounded with quality products and come back to the car market.
Is the country a joke now or are the D3 cars a joke now? Is the country a joke because people want to buy the best value products with what is normally their second most expensive purchase other than their home?
We do agree there. I really wanted to see UAW ousted.
>Fit much better than Aveo
Civic much better than Cobalt/G5
Insight has no GM competitor
CRV much better than Vue/Equinox
Accord somewhat better than Malibu
Element much better than HHR
Ridgeline is not as good as GM trucks in some ways, so GM may is competitive here
We disagree on the concept that I've commented about often and that is that people want a car to be better than their _perception_ of their favorite vehicle from their favorite manufacturer. It has to be better in every way; if something might be competitive then a new challenge factor is brought up to show that the GM, in this case, doesn't have that particular feature.
I dont' feel the cars have to compete with a direct model. There also don't have to be models in every size, area, value, category. Did Honda put a car out in all lines in 1980s?
But the available models do have to exude value and quality suitable for their level. We agree on that in a way.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Potential clients often call me for bankruptcy because debt consolidation did not work...they tell stories, almost all identical, that they paid into the agency for 3, 5, 6 months (they usually figure it out after about six months) amounts from $200 to $600 monthly, sometimes more than that...they will always say, to a man (or woman) that they kept paying in money but their balances never dropped by a dime, and the creditor calls kept on coming...
So, from my BIASED viewpoint, they are a scam and fleece the innocent...
But, I must admit in full disclosure...I see the group of those where it FAILED, so in my opinion it is a scam...TO BE FAIR, if it does work for some, then by definition, they will NOT be calling me as they will not need Chapter 7...so, when someone calls me on a consult, and they ask if debot consolidation is worthwhile, I tell them just what I told you...if it works, I never see them, but if it doesn't, you'll be sorry you wasted so much money in the process...
Good luck, rocky, I hope it works for you...if I am right, and it is a scam to fleece the innocent, you will figure it out rather quickly...if it is a scam, and you are the person we think you are (however misguided in your union thinking), you will drop them like a hot potato...if they are legitimate, then maybe you can educate me as to why my clients feel they were fleeced...
But in my UNBIASED opinion of the UAW, that they have destroyed the US auto industry with featherbedded, overpaid workers, with the skill level of a teenager, they will need bankruptcy in droves, because once they are paid what they are worth, they will probably be living in a tent, since their skill level barely demands minimum wage, and the new reality will be like waking up naked on an iceberg...chilling, to say the least...
Countdown to rational salvation, the bankruptcy of GM...keep your fingers crossed that a new company comes out of the ashes...it would be glorious if it was UAW-free, and then maybe, just maybe, quality will return the American auto making, lemko's vehicles notwithstanding...
Agreed that there don't have to be models in every size. One of the things I have admired about Honda is that they have not always tried to be everything to everybody. Where they have expanded their line they have usually been careful to do a good job. Like everybody they have made mistakes but they have been relatively few. They avoided trying to grab tons of market share at the expense of quality, and they almost entirely avoided the addiction of selling to fleets.
OTOH, GM has been focused on market share and tons of models and brands. They focused on quantity over quality for the most part and it has been unsustainable. Their best vehicles are higher margin large trucks and SUVs but you could see that just with world growth and limited energy supplies this was not going to be a good long term strategy. Where they need to be most compelling moving forward, from a product perspective, is in the areas that Honda is very competitive (and also Toyota). Heck, even Hyundai has really made strides here. If you look at the highest volume vehicles in the US other than trucks and SUVs it is small and midsized cars and smaller SUVs. This is the area that GM is very weak in product and they will need to turn it around quickly if the new company is to be successful (and assuming the UAW doesn't strangle them with costs). The problem is that if the new GM does poorly with products, they fail -- and if they do well with products -- the UAW sees success and grabs for more money, and GM may very well fail in that scenario as well.
That would appear to be true on the surface. But those that voted for him will most likely do it again. With his appointment candidate for the Supreme Court he is assuring more Latino votes. Anyone opposing this Chick is looking for political death.
UAW workers will surely vote for him again as the concessions they are required to make don't amount to much. , Especially for the "Active" employees.
So will those states heavy with welfare recipients. "We got Obama" !
Even if it is only one term for him, the damage he inflicts in 4 years will be devastating, unless the congress stops and smells the thorns and puts the brakes on this spending.
I got bogged down reading this Proposed UAW agreement. But it looks to me like "Active" UAW workers aren't conceding much of anything in wages, retirement, and health care. Looks like there might be some concessions concerning the "Jobs Bank". And "POSSIBLY" easier to get rid of dead wood. Maybe!
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/gmuaw05282009.pdf
Least we not forget, BO is also wanting to eliminate the term limit for President.
King Obama has a certain ring to it! :sick:
Kip
They did what is called cherry picking. They selected a spot in the market and made a car for that market (or truck).
>at the expense of quality,
I don't believe their trucks and vans have that reputation of quality. Odyssey with their continuing of the Honda transmission failure saga... e.g., has slowly hurt their image. They were even the joke of the car repair talk show this weekend on Cincy radio.
>avoided the addiction of selling to fleets.
Not sure why it's an addiction for GM and a choice for others in this attitude. GM had to try to sell vehicles to pay the bills. Even an MBA knows an expensive plant and workers is better onthe bottom line building vehicles at cost or small loss than sitting idle.
>focused on market share and tons of models and brands.
Again because of historical numbers of dealers they had to have vehicles for them to sell. Too many model lines which most here agree with. There is a business advantage to competing with yourself, but 5 lines used to be unique vehicles and became repetition instead.
>This is the area that GM is very weak in product and they will need to turn it around quickly if the new company is to be successful (and assuming the UAW doesn't strangle them with costs). The problem is that if the new GM does poorly with products, they fail -- and if they do well with products -- the UAW sees success and grabs for more money, and GM may very well fail in that scenario as well.
Right. Right. Right.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually our debt to GDP at the end of WW2 was higher than it was last year. Now who knows as we may be headed toward Japan sized debt or even worse. With the economy tanking the percentage becomes worse. As a side note we have only paid down our debt one year since WW2. That was 1957. Every year since the debt has risen. Even when we had a so-called balanced budget.
Here in lies the problem with GM and the UAW. They made deals that borrowed from future earnings. When those earnings did not materialize due to loss of market share GM started looking like the Federal Government. Just borrow more money. The UAW leadership bought into & were part of the Ponzi scheme and now the retirees are screwed. Though it was no secret that GM was losing big time, so the retirees have had plenty of warning to make other arrangements such as get a job to supplement their retirement if they were not 62 or older.
It is hard to feel sorry for them as they sat at the top of the working man's food chain for decades. If they are not illiterate, as some believe, they should have figured out they were headed for a big fall.
Chet, it's not the imports fault that we're in our current situation. it's our habit of overconsumption lifestyles that lead us to this mess.
Precisely! I can tell by some of the younger posters here. They think an entry level job should be enough to buy a home, new car and every electronic gadget sold by China. Then they whine that the Chinese are destroying our economy. The mirror is a tough place to look for the problem. That is where it lies for many, many people including our fellow workers in the UAW.
A couple in our church with a college age son are just now buying their first home. They are taking advantage of the $8k tax credit for first time home buyers. They both work and did not feel they could afford a home until the prices came back down. They wanted one that either income could make the payment. Not a common way of thinking in our gotta have it NOW society.
Agreed and the management is right up there. The Government has just wasted $20B that will never be repaid to the taxpayer and now even the new business model that is evolving has been predicted to not be profitable for the foreseeable future.
While I am very pessimistic on the chain of events at the old D3 starting in the 1970's and have suffered with their products up until today, I am optimistic that someday we will have a lead in the auto industry once again.
I will not hold my breath but will hold out hope.
Regards,
OW
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That is what is really sad. This fall when GM comes out of BK they will still be 18 months and another $50 billion in taxpayer funding away from breaking even!
It's hard to believe we're going through with this. If I worked for, or owned any part of, the Ford Motor Company I would be furious. Before this thing is said and done I truly believe it will be seen as Obama's biggest mistake of 2009.
In my opinion, I have no longer have a "patriotic" obligation to buy an American car. After all, I-and millions of other productive US citizens-will be paying(many times over) for the billions of tax dollars that are being used to prop up Government/Labor Union Motors-AKA "GLUM". Accordingly, when it's time for a new car it will have to come from a German or Japanese automaker. And as for my motorcycles, I will continue to source them from either England or Italy.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Can you tell what trim level this one is, Lemko? I'm guessing it's the base model, since I don't see "Luxury" or "Performance" listed anywhere.
Yeah, if the workers are solely loyal to the UAW and not the company they work for, tell me why anybody else should be loyal to either GM/F/C???
But, no question in my mind...the US auto industry will come out of this stronger and leaner...there will be pain, no different than a heroin addict or cigarette smoker going cold turkey, but in the end it will be worth it...moving forward without the union would be a great step, but unlikely to happen...
Regards,
OW
Bingo! Clearly that is what they have done, and we know where it has led.
"Instead of bringing the American worker down to the level of the third world peasant, we should be bringing the third world peasant up to the level of the American worker!"
"I took the oath of office to defend the Constitution and serve the American People, not the UN or the WTO!"
A writer I liked back in the 1970s was always saying that very thing. Until we bring the 3rd world up to our standard of living they will drag US down to theirs. I see US meeting somewhere in the middle. We are still ahead of most of the World for now.
Even with a Union such as the UAW, a young person going into the workforce today will not have the pension benefits many in my generation took for granted. That is the reality. It has nothing to do with fair. There has NEVER been a society based on FAIR. Equal opportunity to an extent. Even Rocky's imagined Norway is not a fair society. The King gets SOOO much more than the average citizen. It is an elite society like most of the World. You just have to make the best of what you are dealt.
Now that the bulk of Chrysler is owned by Fiat, further blurring the lines of an American car company. Will Chrysler now be viewed as an American car company or a foreign one? I got in to a heated discussion this past weekend with a "friend" about this subject. He said he'd never buy a [non-permissible content removed] car like an Accord. But he would buy a GM regardless of where it was made. He had no clue what models were assembled in this country.
I tried to convince him (but was unsuccessful), that a Honda Accord assembled in Ohio with a majority of American made parts was better for American jobs and the local tax base than a Chevy Aveo that was assembled in Korea. He was clueless.
Here in Illinois, I see commercials with actor Jeff Daniels trying to attract businesses and people with a technological background to Michigan. While talking about all the pluses of Michigan, Jeff mentions high tech companies and Toyota's tech center in Ann Arbor, but not one word is mentioned about UAW workers or the D3 automakers.
Instead, it pandered to its workers & then wondered why so many customers went elsewhere.
I would say your average Midwesterner is ashamed of the way the UAW has brought down the mighty D3. The fat wages of the UAW workers has only made the cost of living higher for the millions in the Midwest that do not make nearly as much money.
While I agree with the "One Customer at a Time" saying. GM, Ford and Chrysler have let millions of customers down. You being a buyer of big fancy cars was not in that demographic. Most people could not afford the luxury of a Cadillac or even a Buick. So they were sold a POC midsize or compact. In my case the quality of the trucks went down in the late 1990s. Statistics do not lie. The D3 have failed the customers.
I don't consider it a direct fault of the UAW as much as PP management. They had the ability to stand up to the UAW thug mentality and took the easy road to mediocrity.
Maybe the rule GM broke was not treating the employees right. One company I've admired since I banked there for a while 25 years ago is First Tennessee/First Horizon.
"First Horizon National Corporation is committed to an environment where employees come first, where employees enjoy the benefits of ownership, and where employees are recognized as the reason we have one of the highest customer retention and satisfaction rates in the industry."
First Horizon
Treat 'em right and you won't care if your employees belong to a union and your well-treated employees will in turn treat your customers right. :P
As UAW fades, so does path to U.S. prosperity (Reuters)
Hmm, not a lot of sense in that! No wonder why they went belly-up! :shades:
Regards,
OW
So those that get to vote are NOT giving up anything with the Concessions. They are selling out the new hires and retirees. If that is not Greed to the Max, what is? No unity in the UAW. It is screw the new guy and keep the status quo for the featherbedders.
"UAW President Ron Gettelfinger (pictured) boasted on PBS's "NewsHour" last week that "we, quite frankly, put pressure on the White House, the [auto] task force, the corporation" to bar small-car imports from overseas."
Concessions to UAW Restrict GM's Ability to Import Its Foreign-Made Green Cars (Green Car Advisor)
That is so incredibly selfish and out right stupid. Why would ANYONE want to join the UAW after they did that? Do they not realize that they too will soon be retired or simply layed off?
jimbres: "After all, the union movement emphasizes group solidarity, not individual excellence."...jimbres, you are too kind in your wording...the UAW movement in particular emphasizes ignorant idiots who are incapable of thinking on their own (remember that is why they recruit illiterate idiots to start with), who follow UAW leaders like dumb lemmings jumping off a cliff, telling them they are "skilled workers" when they are the most UNSKILLED of any work force in the nation, and then tell them that they are worth $35/hour to tighten lug nuts...On tonite's news, they were showing film clips of auto assembly plants in the background, and they showed one worker with a tool in his hand, that tightens all five (trucks would be 6?) lug nuts at once...rocky said that they don't do this anymore, obviously they do, so we can still refer to "lug nut tighteners" earning $35/hour plus benefits, to show the ridiculous wage rates for severely unskilled labor...
Let a better, stronger, GM rise from the ashes, and let's see how long it takes for the UAW to strike and kill MORE jobs...I believe that the first strike will begin approximately 45 minutes after the first plants declares a profit over $ ten dollars a year...that is the lemming mindset of the morons in the UAW, as they will strike as soon as the leaders tell them to do so...
How anyone with an IQ of 100 (average) or more can be in favor of the UAW is simply beyond me...they are the largest destroyer of jobs in the world, and they have no idea what they do to companies...what idiots...SOLIDARITY (on the unemployment line) NOW!!!!!!!
GM gone, Chrysler gone, and the UAW is proud...go figure...maybe we need to cut the $35/hour for lug nut tighteners, ya think???
To address your anti-union comments. Bob do you really think that GM would really keep many of these jobs here in the U.S. if it wasn't for the UAW putting political pressure on them? I personally believe they would not. They will use the UAW rah-rah-rah BS but the fact of the matter is one of their biggest consumer segments are union members who want to buy union made. Fritz Henderson wanted to import cars from China, for god sakes!!! :mad:
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky