The fact is, it's the oil change tech's responsibility to make sure he doesn't double gasket. It's his responsibility to make sure he tightens the drain bolt. It's his responsibility to make sure he replaces the oil filler cap.
Any of those can result in at best a trashed engine and in the case of the gasket or filler cap, a fire. It's not a circular argument when you consider that if the job is done correctly, so far we have no reports of fires.
That's why there is no recall. I mean you gotta admit, these are potentially fatal fires here. I'm sure if NHTSA thought Honda was remotely responsible there would be a recall. Especially after Honda issued a statement that they weren't going to do anything about it.
Conspiracy theorize all you want but the facts of the case still support the "technician error" conclusion.
Any clues about the cloth seats in the '05 CR-V? I dislike the LX fabric, especially with the corduroy-like ribs on the surface of the cloth.
Would the 3rd year of the generation bring about fabric changes?
There are rumors that Honda will add an SE version of the CR-V in 2005. If they do, it probably means leather-trimmed seats like the 1st Gen SE model. They might change the cloth. They did in the 1st Gen third year (1999), but they also changed the (single) interior color to a different shade of grey (Seagull Grey vs Classy Grey).
Since you're asking about the LX seats, I assume you aren't interested in the EX (which has different cloth than the LX), and probably wouldn't be interested in an even more expensive SE model.
Yes, I'm interested in the LX. The EX cloth has the pattern (similar or same as the LX) but doesn't have the ribs (my wife calls it "tufted").
This is the third time that my wife has pushed the CR-V when I was in the market to buy a vehicle; each time, I come away from the CR-V a bit disappointed. Apologizing to the enthusiasts here, but my sense of the interior is that it's a bit disjointed. And being picky, I guess I find it surprising that the door grab bars (if that's what they're called) have a sticky finish to the plastic, while the seat bolsters have a dry vinyl, the cloth is rough with its tufted texture, the armrests on the door angle downhill, and the steering wheel seems a degree off in being perpendicular to the front seat.
The size of the vehicle is good compared with the RAV-4. But Toyota's interior (for once) appeals more to me than that of Honda's.
I'd really prefer a Civic 5-door, getting the better MPG and having the utility of a wagon for those few occasions when its needed.
Whats the deal with aftermarket leather in the crv? I have seen it and heard about it. did these people go to canada to buy their car? is it available as a factory option? I know you can get aftermarket kits, but im wary of the fit. at any rate I suppose ill be waiting to buy till i see what the se has to offer.
Whats the deal with aftermarket leather in the crv? I have seen it and heard about it. did these people go to canada to buy their car? is it available as a factory option? I know you can get aftermarket kits, but im wary of the fit. at any rate I suppose ill be waiting to buy till i see what the se has to offer.
Some Canadian CR-Vs have been imported into the US, but there are issues with warranties, since the warranties for Canadian CR-Vs aren't honored by American Honda.
There are several companies that make leather seat kits for the CR-V, even specifically to deal with the side airbags in the 2nd Gen front seats.
The 1st Gen CR-V SE had "leather trimmed" seats, not full leather seats as in many US luxury cars. I suspect that any future SE versions would be similarly equipped.
If you want leather CR-V seats in the US the best option is to go aftermarket.
"Varmint it never occurred to me that 110 lbs would make that much difference in a SUV."
It does. And you can see it with certain comparisons between vehicles. When you compare mileage, size vs weight, and performance, the CR-V often does surprisingly well.
Adding cargo and passengers will reduce mpg. But a certain amount of weight is taken into consideration when groups like the EPA measure fuel efficiency. When I've made long solo trips in my CR-V I get close to 30 mpg. When I add my wife, my dogs, and gear for the weekend, we get closer to 24 mpg.
Yeah, most cars that come equipped with stability control or even traction control have a switch allowing the driver to disable it. My wife's TL has one. There are a few times when it is necessary to disable it. For that reason, I expect the CR-V will get a similar switch.
One of my gripes with braking controls in AWD systems is the fact that a slipping wheel still has *some* traction. The tires can "swim" forward even when slipping. A braking system will put the brakes on every slipping wheel, jumping from tire to tire, until the process grinds all forward progress to a halt.
One example: In a snow-centric comparo a few years back, the MDX bested several SUVs in a sprint on a snow-covered track. Many of the other rigs were faster on dry pavement, but their braking controls held them back when the surface got slippery. The MDX had no such controls and accelerated faster despite the fact that the tires were slipping.
Okay, that said, I still think that the addition of VSA/traction control would be a good idea for the CR-V. The MDX and Pilot have other advantages with VTM-4, which the RT4WD system in the CR-V lacks. So the cheapest way to get effective performance would be to use the VSA. The hardware is already there. The system will work for the kind of driving conditions that CR-Vers will encounter.
Cybernut - Glad to read that nothing caught fire. Not happy to read that the Techs are not paying attention even with the warnings from Honda.
FWIW, this is still an education issue. And I believe that the NHTSA was correct in allowing Honda to deal with it by first attempting to correct the problem with a warning to the oil changers.
But if we continue to see frequent reports of double or pinched gaskets, then it would appear that more than just retraining is necessary. At that time, both Honda and the NHTSA need to step up and do something.
"Why does all the blame fall on the technician? Yes, he or she made one mistake."
Okee-dokee
"But there were several mistakes made here, not just one."
Are any of them Honda's mistakes, or just mistakes made by the dealer?
"Did the service advisor really remind him about it? Doubtful."
That's speculation, but, okay... Now is that Honda's fault, too?
"Did the manager actually talk to the tech? No way."
More speculation... Ditto
"Did they re-train their staff? Nope. Good PR cover-up claiming they would, though."
Where did you get that from the above story? The Service Manager told Cybernut that they HAD spoken to the Techs and apologized because the Tech still goofed up.
"Is there any quality control in the service dept? Clearly, no."
More speculation, and as much as it might seem to be true, this still is not the fault of the Honda Motor Corporation. It is the fault of the dealer.
"Why all the empty promises from the managers he spoke to? Unforgiveable."
Yeah, Honda should be held accountable for everything that the independent dealers tell their customers.
"Why is the OE filter overtightened? Error in assembly. 2nd error in quality control."
That is the "theory" of one Service Manager. Do you believe everything that the dealers tell you?
"Why is the OE filter gasket not lubed properly? Mistake in assembly. Also failure in quality control."
Another "theory". Ditto.
"If you see only a single mistake in that entire scenario, maybe you have blinders on, most likely with an "H" logo on them."
And I would say that a little critical thinking is still in order. Leave jumping to conclusions to the people who make pogo sticks.
The PR I was speaking of was by Honda to keep NHTSA and customers off their backs, telling them they'd retrain dealer and techs. How has that worked so far?
While dealers are owned independently, don't they have to meet certain Honda standards for service? Isn't it Honda that comes up with the specs and procedures for them? Who are they accountable to?
It's not just one high-school drop-out tech that bears the full responsbility. Blame runs down hill, easy scape goat for a bigger issue.
He is hired, he is trained, (one would hope) supervised, and there should be a feedback loop for quality control as well. All of these areas have failed.
Yes, it was a tech mistake. One that somehow keeps happening. That's a system failure, not a tech failure.
"Yes, it was a tech mistake. One that somehow keeps happening. That's a system failure, not a tech failure."
IF it is happening much more often with CRVs, than with other models.... then you have to look at something besides "operator error". These same techs work on Accords, etc....
"The PR I was speaking of was by Honda to keep NHTSA and customers off their backs, telling them they'd retrain dealer and techs. How has that worked so far?"
Dunno. Can you answer your own question? No offense to Cybernut, but we have one report posted on the Internet. What are you suggesting Honda or the NHTSA do with that?
If we continue to see regular cases like this, then we can say that additional investigation and a new solution is necessary. But we haven't. So I'm not crusading, yet.
"Yes, it was a tech mistake. One that somehow keeps happening. That's a system failure, not a tech failure." - Juice
Yep, I can agree with that. But most of what you wrote in the previous post was based on the speculation of the service manager, and related to the customer service provided by the dealer. There has been no "keeps happening", there has been one case posted here.
I agree that Cybernut's story is a case of poor public relations from a dealership. But that's not against the law. It would be smart for Honda to crack down on this IF IT IS SYSTEMIC. It would be absurd to do so after one case.
I brought this up when the issue first surfaced. There HAS to be something specific to the CR-V, not seen on any other Honda, that is causing this. Why didn't the Accord whose oil the tech changed right after the CR-V have a problem? He suddenly became competent?
The three points that were brought up by the Service Manager makes sense.
It would be smart for Honda to crack down on this IF IT IS SYSTEMIC
Are you kidding, Varmint?
There are almost 50 fires in two years, most at Honda dealerships all over the country. (I can't be sure, but it does not look like any two were at the same place). Almost 200 "warranty claims" on 03's alone. That totals to about 250, or 1 oil related problem per 1000 vehicles (and that is all we know about).
where the gasket or parts of it show a tendency to stick and cause this problem. It's still the technician's job to make sure he doesn't install a filtr until the mating surface is clean and free from debris. I doesn't matter why the gasket is there, it only matters that it is removed.
Just because the lazy/incompetent tech can make the mistake on most other cars and not create a fire doesn't make Honda have to design cars around shoddy maintenance.
Cyber Your story is a sad one. If I owned a Honda dealership, I would require every oil change have the oil filter seat inspected by a second party to insure absolutely that 100% of the old gasket had been removed. Any finding otherwise would result in the removal of the tech from the payroll. Inspecting the old filter will not suffice since it might look as if the entire gasket is included though a thin layer may remain on the engine block.
Fortunately you were more attentive than the oil changer.
The Miata's oil filter is on the side of the engine block, so in the current location some spilling is inevitable. But at least it's on the intake side of the block, not near the hot exhaust headers.
Still, for convenience sake kits like this have become popular.
Another option, perhaps in combination with an oil filter relocator kit, is the Fumoto valve, that replaces the oil drain plug:
What these do is replace the drain plug with a valve you can turn on and off. You can also insert a tube (get the Fumoto one with the nipple) to drain the oil neatly and directly into a container, no spills, not a drop.
When you open a hot oil pan, gravity alone means there's a decent amount of pressure and oil will pour out quickly; splashing is almost inevitable.
In many cases that doesn't matter, but I guess with modern catalysts and hot exhausts designed to lower emissions, that is no longer the case, at least here.
This type of combination will ensure no oil is spilled on those hot spots that could result in fires.
I think you misunderstood which problem I was referring to. I'm talking about the problem existing after it was identified and addressed. Cybernut has reported one case (thank you, Cyber) where the problem still existed after Honda warned Techs about it.
One case.
Now, I'm not so foolish as to believe that this is the end of it. I'm sure we will see others. But the fact of the matter is, this problem can happen to any car. It has happened with plenty of other cars.
So, like it or not, there is an acceptable rate of risk. The NHTSA is the group that decides what is acceptable. If the problem continues, I'm quite certain it will exceed that rate. At which time, I would agree that additional measures need to be taken. If it does not, I can't see any reason to take action (other than PR concerns).
I mean, put yourself in the position of the persons running the business. Are you going to jump at everything that goes bump in the night? Should they rush out and change something (Anything! Just appease the people!) when they don't have the facts?
Two days ago I dropped in Honda dealership to get an oil filter for my CR-V. Usually they sell "Honda" filters I5400-PLM-A02 (made by different manufactures: Filtech, Honeywell,Fram.) This time they sold me Honda oil filter 15400-PCX-004, which was much bigger in diameter and had much thicker rubber gasket. Sales Tech explained me that they got a circular from Honda about CR-V fires. He said that fires happened because of the "double gasket" problem and with NO DOUBLE GASKETS. He said that rubber gaskets for the smaller filter (I5400-PLM-A02) are too weak (???) and Honda recommends using this big and more husky filter (designed specifically for roadster S2000). Rubber gasket is big/thick and hard to pinch. Any Comments???
I recently was rear-ended in my new 2004 CRV. Fortunately, it was not too serious, but required body work. I called the local Honda where I service the car and told them about it since I wanted the CRV back to factory condition, and the other person's insurance covered me taking it to the place of my choosing. They directed me to an independent body shop, where I had the work done. Now that I have it home, I can see that the paint job on the tailgate has little bumps all through it, like there was dust or something that got painted over.
I showed it to the service manager at Honda, and his reaction was "we don't do body work, you have to take it where you had the work done." My response was, "well, you told me to take it there" and without giving you all the detail, suffice it to say I got no satisfaction from them.
I thought I'd get some reaction from you all before I took the next step. I mean, I guess the thing to do is to take it back where the work was done, and make them stand behind their work, but I'm not all that comfortable with them given how things have turned out so far!! Any suggestions?
That's normal. A lot of dealers just don't have body shops at all.
Go back, and if you don't feel comfortable, let the insurance company mediate for you. In other words, call them up and ask them where you should take it to get it re-painted properly.
They might ask you to go back to the same place, if so ask them to call and schedule the appt for you so you don't have to deal with the fall back.
The use of CAPS was perhaps unfortunate, but I agree with isell. It would have been safer to have Honda tow the car; it was their fault. I suspect that had you called the dealer, he would have suggested a tow as well.
What if the washer had failed in the cataclysmic manner instead of just drops?
We test drove a 2004 CRV EX the other day on an extended route. I loved the vehicle and my wife had mixed emotions because of the pronounced road noise. The road noise on long trips triggers migraines for her (not pleasant, believe me). I know that consumer reports makes mention of it as well so it is a known issue. It was just like my old Honda accord that also had a lot of road noise.
The road noise sounds like my cars in the old days when all 4 tires were bald. Even at low speed they were loud and a little rumbly. My question is really for the people who have already replaced their OEM tires on the CRV. Did it make a difference after the tires were changed and if it was, was it a remarkable difference?
I have Michelin Cross Terrain tires on my GMC Envoy and you couldn't ask for a quieter SUV tire. They handle like a dream and move through snow better than any snowmobile (ok, maybe I am taking poetic license here).
Please could everyone respond good or bad. If I don't get positive responses, my wife will make me buy a Saturn Vue instead.
Yes, you can reduce road noise by going with a better tire. Some tires will provide you with a difference that might be described as "night and day". However, I doubt most of those tires will offer the kind of all-season traction you are looking for. It's more likely that a tire change will result in a modest reduction of noise.
Another option for you would be the installation of additional sound dampening materials. A good layer of dynamat or similar product will offer a greater improvement in interior sound. It probably won't cost much more than a set of good tires and will last a great deal longer.
It's been a while since I've driven the VUE, but I don't recall it being any more quiet. I drove one with the old engine (which was rather "thrashy"). The new Honda powerplant should be a great deal smoother. But there were plenty of other noises in the VUE.
Thanks for the usual insightful reply. You seem to be the Mayor of the CRV boards.
I scoped out the Dynamat web site and they have an interesting product. There is no one locally to apply it unfortunately and believe me, I am not very handy in this area. If I went to another city to have it installed, what would you guess would be the cost for installation? I am also curious why doesn't Honda do this to all their cars. This sound deadening would be a very small cost at production time.
If I went the tire route, what tire would you suggest to make a "night and day" difference? I have to tell you the Michelin Cross Terrains are THEE best and quietest SUV tire I have ever owned. Thank you in advance for your reply.
Varmint is our official Honda CR-V Owners Club Community Leader. That's better than being Mayor - I think he got a T-Shirt or something and he doesn't have to run again in November. ;-)
Why didn't you call the dealer and ask them to tow the CRV back to their shop???
I'm still laughing imagining the reaction that I'd get from a Honda dealership service department when I ask that they come TOW my car back the shop after an oil change. After they get through laughing, I figure they'd say something along the lines of:
"Silly girl, don't know you most cars have some oil burn-off after an oil change? Just keep driving it and it will stop. It's NORMAL. Oh, and if your car drives off the road, that's normal too provided it was driving you to the right when it happened." ;-) LOL
I have recently replaced the oem tires with Good Year Viva2 tires and they reduced the road noise slightly. If the road noise gets to bad, I crank up the tunes. I don't know if that would help your wifes migraines any. By the way, I had slightly wider tires put on than what the originals were. Good luck.
If road noise is a big concern, I wouldn't recommend the CR-V. It IS noisy. Better tires will help a little.. Dynamat might help a little.. But, I don't see it making that big a difference. Plus, your wife is really going to be "tuned in", since that is her main complaint already.
That said, I wouldn't recommend the Vue either, for any number of reasons...
Hi All, My mom has a 1999 CR-V with about 46,000 miles. At 40,000, I had a set of Yokohama Avid Touring tires (from Tirerack.com) installed. It made a huge difference in the road noise. The Avid Touring tire is actually NOT a SUV/truck tire, but since the CR-V is a car based SUV, they work fine. Now I am in Arizona, so I don't have any idea how well they would work in the snow.
I was so impressed with the Yoko's, I had them installed on my 2002 Honda Civic DX coupe (at 10,000 miles), again, I noticed a huge difference in the road noise. I drive the car 25 - 30 miles each way to work (all freeway) and the Yoko's are very quiet. Huge difference in handling as well.
I am convinced that tires can make a huge difference in road noise as well as handling. My mom is now looking to purchase a new 2004 CR-V and when she does the first thing to go will be the stock tires.
I appreciate the different takes on my problem. I will follow my hunch and take solace in the fact that when I was young and poor (they always seem to go well together) the difference in road noise was always pronounced when I traded in bald tires to new ones.
kyfdx states my wife will be "tuned in" no matter what. That is a good point. Sort of like me telling you kyfdx dont think about the string on your finger, I mean it, just ignore it.
I went to the tire rack web site and went to the CRV tire review. There are a lot of posts to read and well worthwhile. They almost all agree the OEM Bridgestone Duelers and the BF Goodrich Touring T/A stink up the joint. After people replaced them with either high end Michelin or Yoko tires, the difference in noise and handling were profound.
I reccomend all to go to the Tire Rack web site. Excellent reading.
This was cut and paste from the tire rack web site....
Most reviewers rate these tires as noisy, and they are really noisy. What is exceptional about these tires is just how exciting they are to drive in the rain, - or, - for maximum excitement, to brake hard in the rain. Theres no amusement park ride that can get the adrenaline going better! They truly inspire fear under these circumstances. I have very few miles on them, and I am replacing them this week with Yokohama Avid Touring, - and the car is only 4 months old. I finally realized my safety and peace of mind is worth it. My CRV is the second car I have had these tires on, - previously on a Pathfinder, - they were awful on the Nissan too.
Re: 'Now, I'm not so foolish as to believe that this is the end of it. I'm sure we will see others. But the fact of the matter is, this problem can happen to any car. It has happened with plenty of other cars.'
I assume this is all related to the oild change service, double gaskets, leakiy oit etc etc.
Can anyone cite another make where this has caused and is causing fires? Any recent news stories on other makes? Any recent court cases? Any recent TSBs?
Come on...
I guess Honda just has it's lesser qualified Techs the job of changing oil on only the 03/04 CRVs...that must be why they are the only Hondas that appear to have a problem.
This was a no-brainer back when the Vue has the thrashy old V6 (CR-V all the way), but now the Honda 3.5l V6 smoothed it out considerably.
The V6 is smoother and quieter, and makes its torque in a relaxed manner. There's just no way you can compare the 2.4l to it, good as it is for a 4 cylinder.
So engine noise in the CR-V is greater, for sure, especially with the manual tranny, which is geared very short. The auto is geared a little taller so there's less engine noise at speed.
But honestly I think that's the Vue's only advantage. The Honda has better materials inside, and much superior assembly quality. The Vue's seats are spongy and unsupportive and perhaps the worst I've ever sampled.
Vue's electric PS has less feel, and although the CR-V's is also light, it has some feedback.
The Vue I test drove, a Redline model, has a lot of tire noise, and some wind noise. It has a rattle coming from the back and the suspension made a clunking noise when I made a U-turn.
The CR-V isn't quiet but it didn't make any unexpected noises, either. Tires could help both vehicles, IMO. The Redline has wide, sporty tires that are plenty noisy. The Vue V6 without the Redline package may be quieter, though.
Bummer you can't get the V6 in the CR-V, it is the Honda after all. Still, I can't imagine plunking down $25.8k for that Redline, after rebates.
Neither is perfect but I can forgive the noise in the Honda at its much lower price level.
Can anyone cite another make where this has caused and is causing fires? Any recent news stories on other makes? Any recent court cases? Any recent TSBs?
There is no interesting TSB on the fire at all. For the '03my all the TSBs issued since Jan 1, 2004 are below: 5/13/04 - VISIBILITY:WINDSHIELD 4/15/04 - GLOVE BOX GAPS & ADJUSTMENTS 3/16/04 - SQUEAK WHEN CLUTCH PEDAL IS PRESSED 3/12/04 - ENGINE STUMBLES OR STALLS AFTER A STOP 3/2/04 - MIL COMES ON WITH CODE P1163
Comments
Would the 3rd year of the generation bring about fabric changes?
If a 5-speed automatic is introduced, what kind of MPG increase--if any--might that bring about?
Any of those can result in at best a trashed engine and in the case of the gasket or filler cap, a fire. It's not a circular argument when you consider that if the job is done correctly, so far we have no reports of fires.
That's why there is no recall. I mean you gotta admit, these are potentially fatal fires here. I'm sure if NHTSA thought Honda was remotely responsible there would be a recall. Especially after Honda issued a statement that they weren't going to do anything about it.
Conspiracy theorize all you want but the facts of the case still support the "technician error" conclusion.
Would the 3rd year of the generation bring about fabric changes?
There are rumors that Honda will add an SE version of the CR-V in 2005. If they do, it probably means leather-trimmed seats like the 1st Gen SE model. They might change the cloth. They did in the 1st Gen third year (1999), but they also changed the (single) interior color to a different shade of grey (Seagull Grey vs Classy Grey).
Since you're asking about the LX seats, I assume you aren't interested in the EX (which has different cloth than the LX), and probably wouldn't be interested in an even more expensive SE model.
Your guess is as good as anyones at this point.
This is the third time that my wife has pushed the CR-V when I was in the market to buy a vehicle; each time, I come away from the CR-V a bit disappointed. Apologizing to the enthusiasts here, but my sense of the interior is that it's a bit disjointed. And being picky, I guess I find it surprising that the door grab bars (if that's what they're called) have a sticky finish to the plastic, while the seat bolsters have a dry vinyl, the cloth is rough with its tufted texture, the armrests on the door angle downhill, and the steering wheel seems a degree off in being perpendicular to the front seat.
The size of the vehicle is good compared with the RAV-4. But Toyota's interior (for once) appeals more to me than that of Honda's.
I'd really prefer a Civic 5-door, getting the better MPG and having the utility of a wagon for those few occasions when its needed.
Some Canadian CR-Vs have been imported into the US, but there are issues with warranties, since the warranties for Canadian CR-Vs aren't honored by American Honda.
There are several companies that make leather seat kits for the CR-V, even specifically to deal with the side airbags in the 2nd Gen front seats.
The 1st Gen CR-V SE had "leather trimmed" seats, not full leather seats as in many US luxury cars. I suspect that any future SE versions would be similarly equipped.
If you want leather CR-V seats in the US the best option is to go aftermarket.
Why does all the blame fall on the technician? Yes, he or she made one mistake.
But there were several mistakes made here, not just one.
Did the service advisor really remind him about it? Doubtful.
Did the manager actually talk to the tech? No way.
Did they re-train their staff? Nope. Good PR cover-up claiming they would, though.
Is there any quality control in the service dept? Clearly, no.
Why all the empty promises from the managers he spoke to? Unforgiveable.
Why is the OE filter overtightened? Error in assembly. 2nd error in quality control.
Why is the OE filter gasket not lubed properly? Mistake in assembly. Also failure in quality control.
If you see only a single mistake in that entire scenario, maybe you have blinders on, most likely with an "H" logo on them.
-juice
It does. And you can see it with certain comparisons between vehicles. When you compare mileage, size vs weight, and performance, the CR-V often does surprisingly well.
Adding cargo and passengers will reduce mpg. But a certain amount of weight is taken into consideration when groups like the EPA measure fuel efficiency. When I've made long solo trips in my CR-V I get close to 30 mpg. When I add my wife, my dogs, and gear for the weekend, we get closer to 24 mpg.
One of my gripes with braking controls in AWD systems is the fact that a slipping wheel still has *some* traction. The tires can "swim" forward even when slipping. A braking system will put the brakes on every slipping wheel, jumping from tire to tire, until the process grinds all forward progress to a halt.
One example: In a snow-centric comparo a few years back, the MDX bested several SUVs in a sprint on a snow-covered track. Many of the other rigs were faster on dry pavement, but their braking controls held them back when the surface got slippery. The MDX had no such controls and accelerated faster despite the fact that the tires were slipping.
Okay, that said, I still think that the addition of VSA/traction control would be a good idea for the CR-V. The MDX and Pilot have other advantages with VTM-4, which the RT4WD system in the CR-V lacks. So the cheapest way to get effective performance would be to use the VSA. The hardware is already there. The system will work for the kind of driving conditions that CR-Vers will encounter.
FWIW, this is still an education issue. And I believe that the NHTSA was correct in allowing Honda to deal with it by first attempting to correct the problem with a warning to the oil changers.
But if we continue to see frequent reports of double or pinched gaskets, then it would appear that more than just retraining is necessary. At that time, both Honda and the NHTSA need to step up and do something.
Okee-dokee
"But there were several mistakes made here, not just one."
Are any of them Honda's mistakes, or just mistakes made by the dealer?
"Did the service advisor really remind him about it? Doubtful."
That's speculation, but, okay... Now is that Honda's fault, too?
"Did the manager actually talk to the tech? No way."
More speculation... Ditto
"Did they re-train their staff? Nope. Good PR cover-up claiming they would, though."
Where did you get that from the above story? The Service Manager told Cybernut that they HAD spoken to the Techs and apologized because the Tech still goofed up.
"Is there any quality control in the service dept? Clearly, no."
More speculation, and as much as it might seem to be true, this still is not the fault of the Honda Motor Corporation. It is the fault of the dealer.
"Why all the empty promises from the managers he spoke to? Unforgiveable."
Yeah, Honda should be held accountable for everything that the independent dealers tell their customers.
"Why is the OE filter overtightened? Error in assembly. 2nd error in quality control."
That is the "theory" of one Service Manager. Do you believe everything that the dealers tell you?
"Why is the OE filter gasket not lubed properly? Mistake in assembly. Also failure in quality control."
Another "theory". Ditto.
"If you see only a single mistake in that entire scenario, maybe you have blinders on, most likely with an "H" logo on them."
And I would say that a little critical thinking is still in order. Leave jumping to conclusions to the people who make pogo sticks.
While dealers are owned independently, don't they have to meet certain Honda standards for service? Isn't it Honda that comes up with the specs and procedures for them? Who are they accountable to?
It's not just one high-school drop-out tech that bears the full responsbility. Blame runs down hill, easy scape goat for a bigger issue.
He is hired, he is trained, (one would hope) supervised, and there should be a feedback loop for quality control as well. All of these areas have failed.
Yes, it was a tech mistake. One that somehow keeps happening. That's a system failure, not a tech failure.
-juice
IF it is happening much more often with CRVs, than with other models.... then you have to look at something besides "operator error". These same techs work on Accords, etc....
regards,
kyfdx
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Dunno. Can you answer your own question? No offense to Cybernut, but we have one report posted on the Internet. What are you suggesting Honda or the NHTSA do with that?
If we continue to see regular cases like this, then we can say that additional investigation and a new solution is necessary. But we haven't. So I'm not crusading, yet.
"Yes, it was a tech mistake. One that somehow keeps happening. That's a system failure, not a tech failure." - Juice
Yep, I can agree with that. But most of what you wrote in the previous post was based on the speculation of the service manager, and related to the customer service provided by the dealer. There has been no "keeps happening", there has been one case posted here.
I agree that Cybernut's story is a case of poor public relations from a dealership. But that's not against the law. It would be smart for Honda to crack down on this IF IT IS SYSTEMIC. It would be absurd to do so after one case.
The three points that were brought up by the Service Manager makes sense.
Are you kidding, Varmint?
There are almost 50 fires in two years, most at Honda dealerships all over the country. (I can't be sure, but it does not look like any two were at the same place). Almost 200 "warranty claims" on 03's alone. That totals to about 250, or 1 oil related problem per 1000 vehicles (and that is all we know about).
Seems like it is already systemic to me
Just because the lazy/incompetent tech can make the mistake on most other cars and not create a fire doesn't make Honda have to design cars around shoddy maintenance.
Your story is a sad one. If I owned a Honda dealership, I would require every oil change have the oil filter seat inspected by a second party to insure absolutely that 100% of the old gasket had been removed. Any finding otherwise would result in the removal of the tech from the payroll. Inspecting the old filter will not suffice since it might look as if the entire gasket is included though a thin layer may remain on the engine block.
Fortunately you were more attentive than the oil changer.
I'd just like to see Honda be a little more proactive.
I mean, what else could Cybernut have done? He did everything right.
gee35coupe: the same "shoddy maintenance" is done on far more Accords.
For owners tired of waiting, I did a search and found the following oil filter relocator kit for the Miata:
http://www.thompson-automotive.com/kit.htm
The Miata's oil filter is on the side of the engine block, so in the current location some spilling is inevitable. But at least it's on the intake side of the block, not near the hot exhaust headers.
Still, for convenience sake kits like this have become popular.
Another option, perhaps in combination with an oil filter relocator kit, is the Fumoto valve, that replaces the oil drain plug:
http://lubespecialist.com/product.php?code=fumotovalves§i- on=fumoto
FRAM also makes one, they call it Sure Drain:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/rodi/frasdseries.html
What these do is replace the drain plug with a valve you can turn on and off. You can also insert a tube (get the Fumoto one with the nipple) to drain the oil neatly and directly into a container, no spills, not a drop.
When you open a hot oil pan, gravity alone means there's a decent amount of pressure and oil will pour out quickly; splashing is almost inevitable.
In many cases that doesn't matter, but I guess with modern catalysts and hot exhausts designed to lower emissions, that is no longer the case, at least here.
This type of combination will ensure no oil is spilled on those hot spots that could result in fires.
-juice
You are well aware of the possibility of a fire from leaking oil. You knew you had a leak and you STILL DROVE TEN MILES back to the dealership??
Why didn't you call the dealer and ask them to tow the CRV back to their shop???
Another case of a careless technician who should probably find another line of work!
One case.
Now, I'm not so foolish as to believe that this is the end of it. I'm sure we will see others. But the fact of the matter is, this problem can happen to any car. It has happened with plenty of other cars.
So, like it or not, there is an acceptable rate of risk. The NHTSA is the group that decides what is acceptable. If the problem continues, I'm quite certain it will exceed that rate. At which time, I would agree that additional measures need to be taken. If it does not, I can't see any reason to take action (other than PR concerns).
If I had a CR-V I'd be on the phone with that oil filter relocator kit supplier to see if they have a fitment for the Honda.
-juice
I mean, put yourself in the position of the persons running the business. Are you going to jump at everything that goes bump in the night? Should they rush out and change something (Anything! Just appease the people!) when they don't have the facts?
-juice
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-juice
This time they sold me Honda oil filter 15400-PCX-004, which was much bigger in diameter and had much thicker rubber gasket. Sales Tech explained me that they got a circular from Honda about CR-V fires. He said that fires happened because of the "double gasket" problem and with NO DOUBLE GASKETS. He said that rubber gaskets for the smaller filter (I5400-PLM-A02) are too weak (???) and Honda recommends using this big and more husky filter (designed specifically for roadster S2000). Rubber gasket is big/thick and hard to pinch. Any Comments???
-juice
I showed it to the service manager at Honda, and his reaction was "we don't do body work, you have to take it where you had the work done." My response was, "well, you told me to take it there" and without giving you all the detail, suffice it to say I got no satisfaction from them.
I thought I'd get some reaction from you all before I took the next step. I mean, I guess the thing to do is to take it back where the work was done, and make them stand behind their work, but I'm not all that comfortable with them given how things have turned out so far!! Any suggestions?
Go back, and if you don't feel comfortable, let the insurance company mediate for you. In other words, call them up and ask them where you should take it to get it re-painted properly.
They might ask you to go back to the same place, if so ask them to call and schedule the appt for you so you don't have to deal with the fall back.
Just a thought. Best of luck.
-juice
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What if the washer had failed in the cataclysmic manner instead of just drops?
The road noise sounds like my cars in the old days when all 4 tires were bald. Even at low speed they were loud and a little rumbly. My question is really for the people who have already replaced their OEM tires on the CRV. Did it make a difference after the tires were changed and if it was, was it a remarkable difference?
I have Michelin Cross Terrain tires on my GMC Envoy and you couldn't ask for a quieter SUV tire. They handle like a dream and move through snow better than any snowmobile (ok, maybe I am taking poetic license here).
Please could everyone respond good or bad. If I don't get positive responses, my wife will make me buy a Saturn Vue instead.
Two Year
Another option for you would be the installation of additional sound dampening materials. A good layer of dynamat or similar product will offer a greater improvement in interior sound. It probably won't cost much more than a set of good tires and will last a great deal longer.
It's been a while since I've driven the VUE, but I don't recall it being any more quiet. I drove one with the old engine (which was rather "thrashy"). The new Honda powerplant should be a great deal smoother. But there were plenty of other noises in the VUE.
I scoped out the Dynamat web site and they have an interesting product. There is no one locally to apply it unfortunately and believe me, I am not very handy in this area. If I went to another city to have it installed, what would you guess would be the cost for installation? I am also curious why doesn't Honda do this to all their cars. This sound deadening would be a very small cost at production time.
If I went the tire route, what tire would you suggest to make a "night and day" difference? I have to tell you the Michelin Cross Terrains are THEE best and quietest SUV tire I have ever owned. Thank you in advance for your reply.
Two Year
Steve, Host
I'm still laughing imagining the reaction that I'd get from a Honda dealership service department when I ask that they come TOW my car back the shop after an oil change. After they get through laughing, I figure they'd say something along the lines of:
"Silly girl, don't know you most cars have some oil burn-off after an oil change? Just keep driving it and it will stop. It's NORMAL. Oh, and if your car drives off the road, that's normal too provided it was driving you to the right when it happened." ;-) LOL
-elissa
By the way, I had slightly wider tires put on than what the originals were.
Good luck.
That said, I wouldn't recommend the Vue either, for any number of reasons...
And, Varmint isn't the Mayor... He is the KING.
regards,
kyfdx
(all hail King Varmint)
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My mom has a 1999 CR-V with about 46,000 miles. At 40,000, I had a set of Yokohama Avid Touring tires (from Tirerack.com) installed. It made a huge difference in the road noise. The Avid Touring tire is actually NOT a SUV/truck tire, but since the CR-V is a car based SUV, they work fine. Now I am in Arizona, so I don't have any idea how well they would work in the snow.
I was so impressed with the Yoko's, I had them installed on my 2002 Honda Civic DX coupe (at 10,000 miles), again, I noticed a huge difference in the road noise. I drive the car 25 - 30 miles each way to work (all freeway) and the Yoko's are very quiet. Huge difference in handling as well.
I am convinced that tires can make a huge difference in road noise as well as handling. My mom is now looking to purchase a new 2004 CR-V and when she does the first thing to go will be the stock tires.
I traded mine in for a 4 runner, very quiet and comfortable. Its year end you can pick one up for 23k with rebates.
kyfdx states my wife will be "tuned in" no matter what. That is a good point. Sort of like me telling you kyfdx dont think about the string on your finger, I mean it, just ignore it.
I went to the tire rack web site and went to the CRV tire review. There are a lot of posts to read and well worthwhile. They almost all agree the OEM Bridgestone Duelers and the BF Goodrich Touring T/A stink up the joint. After people replaced them with either high end Michelin or Yoko tires, the difference in noise and handling were profound.
I reccomend all to go to the Tire Rack web site. Excellent reading.
Two Year
Most reviewers rate these tires as noisy, and they are really noisy. What is exceptional about these tires is just how exciting they are to drive in the rain, - or, - for maximum excitement, to brake hard in the rain. Theres no amusement park ride that can get the adrenaline going better! They truly inspire fear under these circumstances. I have very few miles on them, and I am replacing them this week with Yokohama Avid Touring, - and the car is only 4 months old. I finally realized my safety and peace of mind is worth it. My CRV is the second car I have had these tires on, - previously on a Pathfinder, - they were awful on the Nissan too.
'Now, I'm not so foolish as to believe that this is the end of it. I'm sure we will see others. But the fact of the matter is, this problem can happen to any car. It has happened with plenty of other cars.'
I assume this is all related to the oild change service, double gaskets, leakiy oit etc etc.
Can anyone cite another make where this has caused and is causing fires? Any recent news stories on other makes? Any recent court cases? Any recent TSBs?
Come on...
I guess Honda just has it's lesser qualified Techs the job of changing oil on only the 03/04 CRVs...that must be why they are the only Hondas that appear to have a problem.
The V6 is smoother and quieter, and makes its torque in a relaxed manner. There's just no way you can compare the 2.4l to it, good as it is for a 4 cylinder.
So engine noise in the CR-V is greater, for sure, especially with the manual tranny, which is geared very short. The auto is geared a little taller so there's less engine noise at speed.
But honestly I think that's the Vue's only advantage. The Honda has better materials inside, and much superior assembly quality. The Vue's seats are spongy and unsupportive and perhaps the worst I've ever sampled.
Vue's electric PS has less feel, and although the CR-V's is also light, it has some feedback.
The Vue I test drove, a Redline model, has a lot of tire noise, and some wind noise. It has a rattle coming from the back and the suspension made a clunking noise when I made a U-turn.
The CR-V isn't quiet but it didn't make any unexpected noises, either. Tires could help both vehicles, IMO. The Redline has wide, sporty tires that are plenty noisy. The Vue V6 without the Redline package may be quieter, though.
Bummer you can't get the V6 in the CR-V, it is the Honda after all. Still, I can't imagine plunking down $25.8k for that Redline, after rebates.
Neither is perfect but I can forgive the noise in the Honda at its much lower price level.
-juice
There is no interesting TSB on the fire at all. For the '03my all the TSBs issued since Jan 1, 2004 are below:
5/13/04 - VISIBILITY:WINDSHIELD
4/15/04 - GLOVE BOX GAPS & ADJUSTMENTS
3/16/04 - SQUEAK WHEN CLUTCH PEDAL IS PRESSED
3/12/04 - ENGINE STUMBLES OR STALLS AFTER A STOP
3/2/04 - MIL COMES ON WITH CODE P1163