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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?



  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    Genesis isn't a bad name in and of itself...IMO more deserving to be a marque than a model, even if it is just a rebadge from the parent company. The swoopy H has no place on a car in that part of the market.

    Infiniti, Acura, and especially Lexus have proven the American market isn't put off by this. I think the new Hyundai brand would work just as well.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    A a few other honors from Canadian publications - don't forget our neighbor up north :)
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    Still, noone can deny the brand Genesis sounds much catchier than Equus right? :)

    Along with Infiniti, Acura and Lexus, the Genesis sounds just as majestic. Equus.sp otoh....uhh.... a horse?...... :P :P
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    On a side note, the one thing that keep me cold on Hyundai is the hopelessly bland looks on all their models. Sure the Genesis is an improvement (save for the dumb Klingon forehead grille), but I'm still not impressed (the interior is pretty good though).
    The Gen coupe is the first Hyundai ever I dare call decent looking without being too bland.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    Hey, at least it doesn't look like a Kia Amanti....a BMW derivative is downright progressive compared to that atrocious thing. I don't think anyone buys cars from that continent for styling anyway, as few of them have any of it of merit.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The swoopy H has no place on a car in that part of the market

    Perhaps, but this is largely an American sentiment, i.e. that the market should be segmented. Chevy is mainstream, Buick is upscale, Cadillac is luxury.

    Look at how Mercedes operates in Europe. You can get this:


    or this:


    from the same brand.

    What you mentioned is probably why we don't see the entry level Benzes in the USA.

    Even the S class comes in a V6 version - something we never would see here.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    And the American market will make or break the Genesis. I can't see it selling at all in Europe, where Lexus has barely made a dent after all these years. I am sure it is a hit in Seoul, maybe the Chinese will buy a few, it could sell in Oceania...but where else? The H appears very downmarket, I see it and I think of a 1994 Excel. Maybe Hyundai needs a new emblem for its new development.

    Less than 20 years ago you could still get a cloth interior manual transmission 6cyl S-class.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think China is a big potential market. If they like their big Buicks, here's a direct competitor.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    Perhaps, but this is largely an American sentiment, i.e. that the market should be segmented.

    Few people realize that companies like MB and Audi also compete in the low end market. MB's A and B-class, Audi A2-A3, and BMW's own 1-series to name a few.
    Another side, Toyota is actually also a luxury brand in Asia. Crown series is one of their legendary models. Nissan President is another (they just renamed it to Infiniti Q in US).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    ...I see it and I think of a 1994 Excel.

    Do you also see a $35k Avalon or Maxima and think of the 1969 Corolla or 1974 B210? I would guess not. Toyota and Nissan have come a long way since those early tin boxes. And Hyundai has come a long way from the Excel--although my sister had a 1990 Excel and it proved to be one tough little car and not a bad ride for the money.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    I see a 35K Avalon or Maxima and I see vastly overpriced cars.

    I also see a Lexus ES and I see a tarted up Supercamry ;)

    Swoopy H is still a liability, not a positive.
  • fezofezo Manahawkin, NJPosts: 10,333
    I don't know about China. How would they react to cars built in South Korea? I know they have at least a bumpy relationship with Japan which is actually better than it used to be when they had virtually no relationship with them.
    2013 Mazda 5 Grand Touring, 2010 Toyota Prius IV. 2007 Toyota Camry XLE, 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999 Mazda Miata
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    Sure, they're overpriced... EVERY new car is overpriced at list in today's market. But they don't make you think of an econobox from many years ago, just because of their badge, do they?

    Your Lexus ES comment is interesting though. What you seem to be saying is, a new badge (ala Lexus) won't in itself give the Genesis a luxury image. It's all about the car behind the badge. You don't respect a Lexus ES because it has that magical badge, so why should someone respect a Genesis more if it had a different badge? At least overpricing isn't the issue with the Genesis--or at least not to the degree of the Avalon and Maxima.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    I was wondering the same thing...maybe since both Korea and much of China were occupied by Japan for some time, they will have that in common and not be very adversarial. I am sure Korea has at least some fears of modern Chinese imperialism - but I suspect they can get along, at least in this commercial venue.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    They are also much more distant from the econoboxes of the past, and the logos have changed. The swoopy H is a leftover from when the brand was not so hot, even if some do not wish to admit that it wasn't the most competitive 15 years ago.

    Your incessant picking with anyone who gives criticism to the swoopy H is interesting though :P. ES vs Camry is not in any way applicable to the Genesis. The ES is essentially a rebodied Camry with a few more creature comforts and a large profit margin. The Genesis is not a rebodied Sonata and shares little to nothing with it. Genesis is the GS in the Toyolex heirarchy, not the ES. The Genesis is more respectable simply because it is not a reskin made to fool social climbing middle aged women.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    "Incessant picking"? If that is what you call an attempt to ask someone to clarify a post that seems contradictory to what he/she just said, then so be it.

    But realize just because you won't treat the Genesis seriously because it has that "swoopy H" on it, doesn't mean others won't disagree. No need to slam them because they don't agree with you, now is there? Some of us (like the thousands who are driving a Genesis now) buy a car because we like the car, not because of the $2.98 badge on the trunk lid.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    Yes, so be it. The badge itself does more damage than the name, simply because it is a remnant from a poorer time. The badge itself moreso than the brand name is always what I have questioned. It's a 90s throwback, and the 90s for Hyundai were like the late 70s for the big Japanese competition. Let's face it, the other makers with upmarket brands created for the NA market have better histories and track records than Hyundai. A Genesis brand would be ideal given the history of the market, but at least make a better looking H for the car.

    I have never debated the merits of the Genesis itself - no doubt it is a very competent car, but the badging and brand strategy (not the same thing) can and will be questioned. Not everything Hyundai does is golden, far from it. Perhaps those who defend this strategy should go vote with their wallets and buy a new Genesis ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    At least I have driven the Genesis... have you? And if I were in the market for a $30k+ sedan, it would be at the top of my list. But my needs, and mostly my budget, are more plebian right now. In a few years, with the kids gone (and expenses reduced), maybe...

    If redesigning the H badge will mean a big increase in sales for the Genesis and other Hyundai models, then by golly they should do it immediately. That's a no-brainer. If it would actually work. And while Hyundai is off doing that, GM, Ford, and Chrysler should redesign their badges also, since they are remnants from a poorer time and by doing so they could effect turn-arounds of their companies without the huge government bailouts, layoffs, and other painful steps they are taking right now.

    In case you wondered... ;)
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    Why would I want drive the Genesis? Something of that dynamic might appeal to me in 20+ years, but not now. Although it could be a good used deal in a few years, especially if aftermarket grille packages hit the market :P maybe I'd look at one sooner for a fancy commuter, should I live a greater distance from work then.

    The emblems of the big 2.5 also hearken back to a richer time, and the big 2.5 are trying to draw up some heritage-based patriotism to spur sales. I will say the Buick logo is kind of lame, anyway. But it still doesn't seem as Wally-World-ish as the swoopy H, at least not to my eyes.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    The emblems of the big 2.5 also hearken back to a richer time,...

    Unfortunately, that "richer" time is at least two generations ago. About the only buyers who still remember that "richer" time are... Buick buyers! Oh wait, they have a lame badge. :sick:

    Bottom line: if there was ANY chance changing the swoopy H would significantly increase Hyundai's sales, Hyundai would have taken that step long ago, in a heartbeat. It's just not that easy.
  • cviz821cviz821 Posts: 12
    if you don't like the swoopy H you can change the badging like some of us Genesis Owner's have:



  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    Yes, my bad, Hyundai is acting with perfect planning and logic, as always. How dare I question their strategy ;)

    It might be more about longterm image than short term sales. As the price goes up, image counts for something.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    Not bad. Is there one for the steering wheel, too?
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I just don't get your objections to the Hyundai badge, and I think your take on it is over the top-- and backwards.

    Which comes first, the car or the badge? Every famous badge I know of was made famous by the cars wearing it, not the other way around. Hyundai is attempting to do the same thing. Why is it OK for the rest of the luxury car manufacturers to make their badge famous and recognizable by building great cars, but not Hyundai?

    I think Hyundai has thought about spinning off an upscale division, but decided to work hard and make their current brand acceptable to upscale, quality conscious buyers. I think they have made great strides in the past 3-4 years. They have come from an unpronounceable name with a reputation for making econo-boxes, to a household name with a growing reputation for quality and reliability.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    You can question anything you want. You don't even have to be logical or consistent in how you go about it. That's what makes America great. :)

    That Genesis badge on the trunk lid looks cheap to me, like it's made of chromed plastic. But another great thing about America is that folks can stick anything they want on their cars. That badge probably upped the resale value of the car by, what would you estimate, maybe 10%? Or maybe not.
  • joshuagjoshuag Posts: 92
    Everyone is talking about the swoopy H, and I went and looked at a Genesis and I didn't notice if it even had a H on the car, or a Hyundai badging anywhere on the car. But, I don't think that is going to matter because people are going to find out what it is anyway. And when they find out, truly I don't think it is going to matter because it is really a beautiful car for the money.

    As for the question as to whether there is room for Hyundai in the luxury car segment. The answer is I dont think so right now. I think they need a little more time in the market building high quality beautiful cars for a great price. They need to be building these cars long enough that when people here the word Hyundai they don't think of a rusty old Excel.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Remember, Lexus had a lot of naysayers in 1990 as well.

    I'm not saying Gensis is the same as the 1990 LS400, but it's definitely a step in the direction they want to be heading in.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    Yes, one who lumps the ES in with the Genesis in some bizarre comparison certainly has a right to lecture others about logic and consistency...

    I forgot, according to the Hyundai fanboys here, the swoopy H can do no wrong, everything is done with logic and reason, the pink of perfection in the automotive realm, and to question the actions of these automotive gods is akin to spitting on the pope ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    If there is no room for Hyundai in the luxury car segment, how do you explain that the Genesis sedan is already outselling some of its more established competitors after being on the market for only about 6 months?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    It's nice that you feel that way. As someone who worships at the altar of the swoopy H, I wouldn't expect otherwise.

    Toyota remade it's badge into the belt buckle we see now, right around the time Lexus hit the market, the bigger better 92 Camry hit the market, and the whole organization was ambitiously moving up. It's not a coincidence.

    "Why is it OK for the rest of the luxury car manufacturers to make their badge famous and recognizable by building great cars, but not Hyundai? "

    Hyundai is a luxury car manufacturer?
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