Especially in NA, where styling and driving dynamics are worth less with each new year to the general population. A vanilla Camcord or a generic crossover...that's all it takes. It's a reality driven by the market...but that doesn't mean we have to like it :shades:
A vanilla Camcord or a generic crossover...that's all it takes
Its funny you say that. One my favorite "features" of my Genesis is that I hardly ever see another one. When I had my Avalons there was one on every corner.
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As a Genesis owner for 8 months now I can truely say that the interior of the car and its finishes are a class act. It still has a WOW factor after 8 months. And I cam from an Acura TL. Also owned Lexus sedans. BUT, once you start to drive the car. Its a whole different ballgame. The car drives like a bucking horse. Period. The ride SUCKS! I love the interior, I love the Price. I hate the ride. It really needs to be fixed. Houston, We got a problem! Or in this case.Seoul, We got a problem. :mad:
Thus we can conclude that Aztek designers were either paid in grapes and peanuts (literally, perhaps? :P ) or they're probably die cast toys designers in disguise. :P
I agree with you, Gen coupe is a nice design, it turns my head plenty of times, especially in black or blue.
" You still haven't answered the question I posed several days ago re how a totally unknown brand/badge--Genesis--will magically elevate the Genesis sedan to luxury-car status, unless there is a solid, well-respected brand behind it, as with Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, and Nissan/Infiniti. If the Hyundai brand has no value and no reputation for quality, nor will a "Genesis" brand." Are you talking to me? I never said any such thing if you are. However, I do agree with you in that what made Lexus, Acura and Infiniti accepted for one thing was the outstanding reputation of the corporations and the cars they had produced for well over 20 years. IMO Hyundai has not proven itself in the long term, so at this point it is NOT in the class with the above, much less the commonly accepted European luxury brands. Hyundai's chief selling point for all of its vehicles now is much lower costs - and you don't build a luxury brand on that. BTW, Hyundai is not on the Genesis, just H's on the wheels. So technically, it is badged, but does not carry the manufacturers name.
Most publications state that the Genesis is in the same class as the Buick Lucerne, Chrysler 300 and Toyota Avalon. These are not luxury cars, but well equipped upscale sedans. Not even in the same class as Cadillac and Lincoln apparently.
I have criticized the Genesis for riding a little too firm for my tastes coming from a Toyota Avalon. Recently, though I found myself on a really bad highway that was under construction with a lot of ruts, grooved pavement, etc. It handled it very well. The car stayed planted, and didn't bob or wallow. Yes, you felt the bumps (with a tad of feedback through the steering wheel) but overall I was a very impressed.
I was quick to at first to blame the suspension, but really it comes down to personal preference. Would I prefer it to be a little softer? Probably, but the control and handling are starting to make up for it. Not to mention on a nice highway this car is as quiet and comfortable cruiser as anything I have driven,
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Knowing GM, the Aztek designers were paid in bars of platinum, and today they retain upper management positions and will collect seven figure pensions :sick:
When I first saw the Genesis coupe, the little dip for the rear quarter window irked me...but now I don't mind it, it's a harmless quirk and makes the car unique. Different doesn't have to be polarizing.
Sorry, I thought for sure you had said Hyundai should sell the Genesis sedan under a Genesis brand. But that would be a bad idea if, as you say, Hyundai has not proven itself in the long term and thus is not in the class with the corporations that founded Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti. I must be thinking of someone else. It's clear to me know you agree that the Genesis should be sold under the Hyundai badge, not some separate "luxury" brand badge.
P.S. There is an H on the trunk lid also. And since it's clear to everyone that it's the Hyundai badge, having the name "Hyundai" spelled out on the back of the car is redundant. And you'll notice that is pretty common on luxury cars. For example, newer BMWs and MBs typically don't have their brand names spelled out on the car, just the brand's badge. Do you suppose it's because those companies think owners would be ashamed to have the brand's name on the car? I doubt it.
MB hasn't spelled out the brand name other than on the front badge since...maybe the gullwing? I can't recall when BMW last did it, must be 50+ years too.
Maybe the swoopy H isn't clearly identified by everyone, as the previous products have been pretty beige and blend into a crowd.
Yep, I noticed that on the BMW I owned. But I also noticed IT WAS ON THE BADGE, not "BMW" separate from the badge. Which is what Bob's comment was about.
True, but Hyundai itself place Genesis there, so I don't think it's surprising in any way. OTOH a lot of sites, mags, plus the info I got from salespeople indicate that Genesis is a near luxury car competing straight ahead with Lexus ES and TownCar, as well as Buicks, Chryslers, Avalon and Maxima.
The only problem is determining the line between regular full size cars and premium cars, which can be difficult since every publication has it's own set of standards.
I have always said that Hyundai could not support a separate "luxury" brand for Genesis and now Equus, even if they added Azera and Vera Cruz to it. Total sales would be too low to support a dealership and/or a service department. This would lead to price increases of $10-20,000 per vehicle and sales would plumet. It would also pull sales away from an ever expanding Hyundai network. In the last four years, my area has gone from one Hyundai dealership to four. Very, very, very few people identify the flying H with Hyundai. Until I purchased an Azera I had no idea what the H was. In fact, because of the similar styles of their vehicles, I would guess may people think a Hyundai is a Honda until they see the name spelled out. My comment though concerned Hyundai not putting its NAME on the vehicles' exteriors at all. BMW and M-B do not spell out their names because the vast majority of people know what the BMW badge and the M-B star represent. both earned with well over 50 years of recognition in the US market. As mentioned, they do spell it out on the small badges on the hood and trunk, at least M-B does.
I agree that it is confusing. Even Consumer Reports changes its categories from year to year and publication to publication. Most people do not consider the Lexus ES as an actual luxury/prestige car in the manner of BMW, M-B, etc. It has a Lexus badge, but too many Camry under pinnings. Of course all of that is a matter of opinion. Many do not consider the BMW 1 or M-B C class as luxury either. Regardless, Genesis is not a luxury car in the sense that the BMW 5, M-B E, Infinity G, etc. are. If Hyundai really considered it to be in that class, you better believe they would be charging $50,000 for the V-6 and $55,000+ for the V-8. And you can take that to the bank.
Never said I hate Hyundai. In fact, up until two months ago I was still seriously considering a 2010 Genesis. Maybe all your posts could be "I will never accept that anything can be wrong with a Hyundai product or its corporation." I just "hate" the fact that some people cannot recognize what many professionals already have, not to mention way too many owners. Hyundai has some great features on its cars, but it also has some continuing concerns that keep it from living up to its potential. Deficiencies that should have been corrected before the cars were placed on the market.
Where does it say that? If you've been reading here for the 9 years I've been around, you know that I carry a grudge against Volvos. I've acknowledged it's an unreasonable grudge, but there it is. Too many times stranded back in the 70s and early 80s.
I think the C-Class is at best, an "executive" model btw.
And it'd be a hoot to cruise around in an Elantra Touring with a BMW or MB logo. I'd probably even get a mention over in Mystery car pix..... Misbadged cars show up in there now and then.
Someone on one of the Jeep boards got a used Grand Cherokee with a Trail Rated badge - on one side only. Either the other one fell off, or someone tried to increase the resale a tad maybe.
Just because you didn't follow what's been going on in the automotive market for the past 25 years, i.e. the emergence of Hyundai and their "H" badge, doesn't mean that very, very, very, few people have just as little knowledge of the car market so as not to recognize the Hyundai badge when they see it.
I do think it's odd that you have some kind of problem with Hyundai not putting a "Hyundai" name badge on the Genesis, even though luxury brands such as MB and BMW don't either. If you can find a current model MB luxury sedan with "Mercedes Benz" spelled out on the hood and trunk, or even just the trunk, big enough to read from a distance (e.g. from another car), please provide links to those photos.
Maybe all your posts could be "I will never accept that anything can be wrong with a Hyundai product or its corporation."
Maybe I was harsh... however, in all fairness you do seem to have an agenda when you post.
Anyway, I am no Hyundai fanboy... yes I own a Genesis and my GF owns an Elantra. We both bought them because in their respective segments they offered the best "bang for the buck"
I just "hate" the fact that some people cannot recognize what many professionals already have, not to mention way too many owners.
If you have read my posts I have repeatedly said I wish Hyundai offered two suspension setups in the Genesis, one like an Avalon/ES/ etc and another that is stiffer than the current model and more like a 5 series or Infiniti M sport. I will contend although I would prefer a softer ride there is nothing "wrong" in a mechanical sense with my early build Genesis. It says a lot that Hyundai can build a quiet, vibration free, excellent high speed cruiser at a price that no one can match. Go take a Genesis on some really bad pavement and pay attention beyond the firm nature of the suspension and see how really well the car stays composed.
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Wrong again Backy. I subscribe to four car mags as well as CR and visit 5 or 6 automotive websites at least weekly. I have been following the automotive market for 25 years and have several friends who are "car guys." Heck, my friends and I are the "automotive market!" They agree that very, very, very few people in the general public recognize the flying H as a Hyundai logo-and that is Hyundai's real target demographic. As for BMW and M-B, they don't need to spell it out because their badges, grill, etc. are already recognized by the general public, especially M-B. Why do you think Hyundai copied them? Also, they are not trying to break into a new segment or increase their presence in the luxury market because they are already there. My comment was that why is Hyundai ashamed to spell out their name on the Genesis since it does on all its other offerings? It is true that Hyundai has made tremendous strides over the past several years, but look where they started? No where to go but up. Still not a luxury car and that is the topic here.
No, I think I am pretty much on target. Anyone who did not recognize the Hyundai "H" badge until, at earliest, late 2005 (or whenever you bought your Azera), obviously doesn't follow the automotive market very closely. Or follows only parts of it, and not one of the world's largest automakers, Hyundai/Kia.
When you can post the results of a third-party, scientific survey that states that a very small percentage of car buyers (I am thinking under 5% would qualify as "very, very, very few people) today recognize the Hyundai brand logo, let us know.
Your comment re "why is Hyundai ashamed to spell out their name on the Genesis" tells us everything others need to know about you and why you continue to post here. There are several possible reasons why Hyundai didn't put "HYUNDAI" on the Genesis. I've already noted one: other cars in the Genesis' market don't do it. Heck, there isn't even a "Honda" name badge on the Accord anymore! Yet you assert the only reason Hyundai wouldn't put their name on their flagship car (in the USA) is because they are "ashamed" to spell out their name.
Not only don't you know much about the car marketplace, you don't know much about Koreans.
Regardless, Genesis is not a luxury car in the sense that the BMW 5, M-B E, Infinity G, etc. are not so sure I'd give a lux pass to the Infiniti G although that car (along with the revisions made to the M) certainly did help to elevate the Infiniti brand past its previously Acura like levels. Simply selling an expensive car, though (let's call it a $50k Equus) is not necessarily a pass into 'lux' land either, IMO. A lux entrant must still have to have that 'snobby' brand perception and that brand differentiation - in addition to the higher pricing. Hyundai can never be a 'luxury' brand while it caters almost exclusively to the lower ends of the market. They could literally buy a fleet of LSs, relabel them, and resell them at $60k+ and still not have a luxury car for sale - not as Hyundais. Can they, however, make perfectly acceptable entrants in amongst those other high end near lux sedans, sure - they are already doing quite well at that. Think the reason that the Gen does not sport a strong brand identification is obvious. Sooner or later Hyundai understands that it must become a brand of it own, at least if they really do want to compete with those lux J3 and German brands.
Agree. The market is still very brand concious, and changing that kind of mindset will take more than just a few years (a few generations is more likely). It's not Hyundai's fault, it's just "educating" the market will take too long.
And hasn't the autobuyer ALWAYS been brand conscious? Perhaps the reason why any attempt that Toyota made to enter the luxury market back in 1990 HAD to involve a new name - and a new place to sell it. While introducing something like the Gen Sedan under the Hyundai brand certainly did save several billion won, I reject the whole notion that a new dealership network is necessarily cost prohibitive - heck, if Genesis can get enough notice/favorable reaction, then qualified dealers ought to be lined up for the privilege of selling the thing, perhaps even making money for Ulsan. That's happened before too.
Perhaps the reason why any attempt that Toyota made to enter the luxury market back in 1990 HAD to involve a new name - and a new place to sell it.
That is faulty reasoning. You are assuming, incorrectly, that Toyota was forced to take the direction that it did. But we will never know that for sure, because "alternate realities" we can pop into and out of are a thing of sci-fi shows. So what would have happened had Toyota taken a different approach, e.g. badge their high-end cars as Toyotas, as they do elsewhere, or sell Lexus alongside Toyotas as they do with the Scion brand. We'll never know now. But we do know how Hyundai has fared selling the Genesis sedan as a Hyundai, in Hyundai dealerships. They have done quite well, outselling some competitors with the "snobby" brand names. So much for "brand consciousness."
Anyway... if autobuyers are so brand conscious, why is Hyundai/Kia grabbing marketshare vs. much more established brands--in fact against ALL other brands in the past year except maybe Subaru? It appears to me that if a company (like Hyundai) offers a good product at a good price, the buyers will be there, no matter if the brand isn't the likes of Toyota.
Or just maybe some are short changing how far Hyundai has come, as a brand and as a company? It's not the butt of Jay Leno jokes anymore. Now the "joke" is on Toyota et. al. Except they don't think it's very funny, do they?
You think changing the perceptions of car buyers to accept Hyundai as a provider of luxury cars will take at LEAST 40-50 years? Wow. Have you noticed the changes in buyer perception about Hyundai in just the past 5 years? It has been nothing short of amazing. Five years ago, many people would think you crazy for even suggesting they buy a Hyundai. There are still some people who think that way (a few in this discussion, for example.) But I've noticed that opinion is few and far between these days. Now, when I mention I own a Hyundai, the typical response is, "Oh, those are good cars, aren't they?" or something like that. NO ONE would have considered paying $35-40,000 for a Hyundai 5 years ago. Now that happens with regularity, every time a Genesis 4.6 or loaded 3.8 is sold.
The pace of change is much more rapid in this Internet age than it was a generation ago. That is true in the automotive market as it is elsewhere.
The marketer said 60% of Americans today are now aware of Hyundai and willing to buy the brand, compared to just 40% two years ago. Mr. Ewanick credited better products backed by the "Think about it" campaign. "It's a proof campaign, and we are giving people evidence about our cars and our quality and our styling, and we keep shoveling on the facts and information."
if autobuyers are so brand conscious, why is Hyundai/Kia grabbing marketshare vs. much more established brands-- that one is easy Hyundai does have a bit less luggage than it once did AND any company that sells things cheaper than about anybody else will do better when things get bad.
Ignore history if you wish, but there are more than a few precedents that illustrate that the car buyer is indeed brand sensitive and that things work out quite well with the whole new brand/new dealer approach, and FTM how things don't work when a mainstream brand tries to market something clearly out of their established product niches.
The marketer said 60% of Americans today are now aware of Hyundai and willing to buy the brand I guess that means that a full 40% are not willing to buy the brand?? Simply because it is a Hyundai? Astounding, and points out the problems that Hyundai still faces. Wonder what those percentages might be for those not willing to buy a Toyota, a Honda, a Nissan etc etc. 5%, 10%.??? :confuse:
Sorry, you can't have it both ways. First, you tout the power of brands like Lexus, MB, etc. and talk about how "brand conscious" car buyers are. Then you say that Hyundai is grabbing market share because its cars cost less than some other makes.
So, what happened to all those "brand conscious" car buyers?? They can't be very brand conscious if they will switch to another brand--a brand not in the "mainstream" as you say--just to save a few bucks.
I am not ignoring history. But unlike some others here, I am not ignoring logic either. :shades:
The point is, 60% is a far cry from the "very, very, very many people" who don't know enough about Hyundai to even recognize its badge.
The other point is, 60% is a big improvement in brand recognition in just a few years for Hyundai. See for example:
Hyundai Motor Corp. surprised everyone this year by making the biggest increase in automotive brand value and recognition. Hyundai for the first time ever beat such marques as Porsche, Lexus, and Nissan. Honda and Toyota are now forced to take Hyundai more seriously as it is now closing in on them at a rapid pace.
Buyers are still brand conscious - how else do you explain the ten Camcordimas sold versus every one Sonata - despite the Sonata being thousands cheaper than any of the the other three. The Sonata sales, however, have not been hit nearly as hard as the others, of course, simply because they are that much cheaper. For a price, the autobuyer is willing to accept what he clearly thinks is a lesser car. That would be 'logic' that has some factual basis. :P
60% is a big improvement in brand recognition in just a few years for Hyundai sure it is, but it is still real real bad. Maybe more to carolinas point that they had nowhere to go but up. Think about it - just more than half of the carbuyers out there could even tell us what a Sonata is, for example? And the other half (40%) wouldn't even give a Hyundai product the time of day???? That, my friend, is a problem and why to many that the whole idea of Hyundai and luxury cars is a contradiction in terms.
Buyers are still brand conscious - how else do you explain the ten Camcordimas sold versus every one Sonata - despite the Sonata being thousands cheaper than any of the the other three.
Uh, no, that is not even close to reality. Closer to 7-1 in 2009.
Keep in mind that even if Hyundai's Sonata plant in Alabama were max'ed out, they could ship no more than about 200,000 cars a year out of there. So they will be at a big numerical disadvantage vs. Toyota + Honda + Nissan no matter what.
Also, it is no longer true that the Sonata is "thousands less" than comparably-equipped Camcordimas. For example, compare the invoice price less rebates of the base 2010 Camry and base 2010 Sonata and tell me what you find out (I already did that analysis, but I don't recall if it was for this discussion or another one.)
Again, if this brand consciousness is such a big force, it should be enough to outweigh the relatively small difference in price of, per your example, a Sonata to a Camry or Altima or Accord. Instead, these cars buyers are, according to you, willing to accept what they think is a clearly inferior car.
I don't see any factual basis for that claim, however. For example, a survey that shows most Sonata buyers feel their car is clearly inferior to a Camcordima but they bought the Sonata because it's cheaper.
So you don't think that's a big enough chunk of the market to go after, compared to Hyundai's market share today? What is big enough? 90%? 100%? Do you know what percentage of buyers will not consider a BMW, or Mercedes Benz, or Lexus, or Infiniti, so we have some comparison?
Keep in mind that even if Hyundai's Sonata plant in Alabama were max'ed out, they could ship no more than about 200,000 cars a year out of there. So they will be at a big numerical disadvantage vs. Toyota + Honda + Nissan no matter what. OK I 'll rephrase if it makes you feel better - how else do you explain the 7 Camcordimas they sell vs. the 1 Sonata. 2009 vs, 2007-08, nitpicker! The point still very much stands. Oh, and yeah, they were production limited over there in Alabama and that is what limited Sonata sales and also created that excess demand that led to all those Hyundai signature pricing policies. Yeah right. If Hyundai could really sell that many Sonatas, the boats from Korea would be full. You claim to understand Koreans, and if you really do, you'll also know that to a Korean businessman there is nothing better than a sale - at any price.
whooosh... the sound of something going right over your head - again. Has to do with the fact (or at least, the referenced marketing mavens 'facts') that ONLY 60% of the car buying public recognize the brand. Points out Hyundai's continued perception problem - a substantial portion (40%) of the car buying public don't know what they make - or don't care to know. You wouldn't suppose to want to estimate how many car buyers out there don't know (or care) about what the J3 (or even D2) make.
I wonder if that may have had something to do with the Lexus and Scion coming out with a separate dealer network. Toyota probably had excess capacity (of course, now they have so much excess capacity, they could start 3 more car companies....).
Wrong AGAIN! Please read and comprehend before whipping out a response. I said people do not recognize the Hyundai flying H, not that they do not recognize the name HYUNDAI. In fact, one of Hyundais' problems is overcoming the perception many still have about Hyundais, as captain pointed out. Not recognizing the flying H as being a Hyundai back in 2005/2006/2007 does not mean someone does not know anything about the US auto market. Knowing what the H stands for doesn't mean YOU know anything about the auto market either. Besides we are discussing the US automarket, not the world market in this topic. Also, I probably understand more about Koreans than you do about Americans. My comment re: Hyundai not putting its name on their premier vehicle says more about them than me. They are NOT proud of the vehicle. As for BMW, M-B, et. al. badges, I've explained that several times and apparently you cannot compehend it. BTW, these cars are NOT in the Genesis market, much to your dismay-they are above it and well above it. I know as much about the market place as you do, maybe more. If 40% would not even consider purchasing a Hyundai, that is pretty darn bad. Most people will consider anything and then begin to rule them out due to various reasons. This means that Hyundai still has a significant perception problem to overcome before it can successfully move into the luxury market.
Not necessarily. I just don't think it is ready to be considered a luxury make in the US yet. It has too many problems show up and rather than solving them, they just bring out a new model.
Congratulations! You read and comprehended my comments. As I have said many times before, the Genesis is a very well equipped car, but its main selling point is it costs $10-15,000 less than the real luxury cars or even some upscale cars. A luxury/prestige/premium car is one that is perceived as such by the general public, not just automotive magazine writers and posters on automotive blogs. Hyundai and Genesis are not there yet. Maybe someday, but not soon.
My comment re: Hyundai not putting its name on their premier vehicle says more about them than me. They are NOT proud of the vehicle.
You must be kidding right??? OK, so in some board room a bunch of execs said "since we think we did a bad job on this vehicle lets not spell out Hyundai on the back" That is why they spent millions advertising it during the Superbowl and dare to compare it to some very fine (and expensive) true luxury makes.
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Toyota knew what they were doing when they created Lexus. They learned because people do not consider the Avalon a luxury/premium/prestige car. Didn't in 1989 and do not now. Same applies to Infiniti and Acura. Hyundai and Kia are grabbing market share in the low cost, economy car area. While they may have grabbed a few sales from BMW, M-B, etc., this is due to the Great Recession and the tide is already turning as M-B sales are going up again. And don't forget, the primary sales point for the Genesis is its very low cost compared to real luxury cars. When the Great Recession ends, that won't be as important to may people.
Comments
Its funny you say that. One my favorite "features" of my Genesis is that I hardly ever see another one. When I had my Avalons there was one on every corner.
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I agree with you, Gen coupe is a nice design, it turns my head plenty of times, especially in black or blue.
Are you talking to me? I never said any such thing if you are.
However, I do agree with you in that what made Lexus, Acura and Infiniti accepted for one thing was the outstanding reputation of the corporations and the cars they had produced for well over 20 years.
IMO Hyundai has not proven itself in the long term, so at this point it is NOT in the class with the above, much less the commonly accepted European luxury brands.
Hyundai's chief selling point for all of its vehicles now is much lower costs - and you don't build a luxury brand on that.
BTW, Hyundai is not on the Genesis, just H's on the wheels. So technically, it is badged, but does not carry the manufacturers name.
Not even in the same class as Cadillac and Lincoln apparently.
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I have criticized the Genesis for riding a little too firm for my tastes coming from a Toyota Avalon. Recently, though I found myself on a really bad highway that was under construction with a lot of ruts, grooved pavement, etc. It handled it very well. The car stayed planted, and didn't bob or wallow. Yes, you felt the bumps (with a tad of feedback through the steering wheel) but overall I was a very impressed.
I was quick to at first to blame the suspension, but really it comes down to personal preference. Would I prefer it to be a little softer? Probably, but the control and handling are starting to make up for it. Not to mention on a nice highway this car is as quiet and comfortable cruiser as anything I have driven,
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I'd do it because it's fun to fool the masses who only pay attention to badges while tweaking my nose at the owners who paid too much. :P
Lot of fun for only $20.
I enjoy gluing quarters to sidewalks too.
+1
When I first saw the Genesis coupe, the little dip for the rear quarter window irked me...but now I don't mind it, it's a harmless quirk and makes the car unique. Different doesn't have to be polarizing.
P.S. There is an H on the trunk lid also. And since it's clear to everyone that it's the Hyundai badge, having the name "Hyundai" spelled out on the back of the car is redundant. And you'll notice that is pretty common on luxury cars. For example, newer BMWs and MBs typically don't have their brand names spelled out on the car, just the brand's badge. Do you suppose it's because those companies think owners would be ashamed to have the brand's name on the car? I doubt it.
MB hasn't spelled out the brand name other than on the front badge since...maybe the gullwing? I can't recall when BMW last did it, must be 50+ years too.
Maybe the swoopy H isn't clearly identified by everyone, as the previous products have been pretty beige and blend into a crowd.
The only problem is determining the line between regular full size cars and premium cars, which can be difficult since every publication has it's own set of standards.
Very, very, very few people identify the flying H with Hyundai. Until I purchased an Azera I had no idea what the H was. In fact, because of the similar styles of their vehicles, I would guess may people think a Hyundai is a Honda until they see the name spelled out.
My comment though concerned Hyundai not putting its NAME on the vehicles' exteriors at all.
BMW and M-B do not spell out their names because the vast majority of people know what the BMW badge and the M-B star represent. both earned with well over 50 years of recognition in the US market. As mentioned, they do spell it out on the small badges on the hood and trunk, at least M-B does.
Most people do not consider the Lexus ES as an actual luxury/prestige car in the manner of BMW, M-B, etc. It has a Lexus badge, but too many Camry under pinnings. Of course all of that is a matter of opinion. Many do not consider the BMW 1 or M-B C class as luxury either.
Regardless, Genesis is not a luxury car in the sense that the BMW 5, M-B E, Infinity G, etc. are.
If Hyundai really considered it to be in that class, you better believe they would be charging $50,000 for the V-6 and $55,000+ for the V-8. And you can take that to the bank.
Maybe all your posts could be "I will never accept that anything can be wrong with a Hyundai product or its corporation."
I just "hate" the fact that some people cannot recognize what many professionals already have, not to mention way too many owners. Hyundai has some great features on its cars, but it also has some continuing concerns that keep it from living up to its potential. Deficiencies that should have been corrected before the cars were placed on the market.
I think the C-Class is at best, an "executive" model btw.
And it'd be a hoot to cruise around in an Elantra Touring with a BMW or MB logo. I'd probably even get a mention over in Mystery car pix..... Misbadged cars show up in there now and then.
Someone on one of the Jeep boards got a used Grand Cherokee with a Trail Rated badge - on one side only. Either the other one fell off, or someone tried to increase the resale a tad maybe.
I do think it's odd that you have some kind of problem with Hyundai not putting a "Hyundai" name badge on the Genesis, even though luxury brands such as MB and BMW don't either. If you can find a current model MB luxury sedan with "Mercedes Benz" spelled out on the hood and trunk, or even just the trunk, big enough to read from a distance (e.g. from another car), please provide links to those photos.
Maybe I was harsh... however, in all fairness you do seem to have an agenda when you post.
Anyway, I am no Hyundai fanboy... yes I own a Genesis and my GF owns an Elantra. We both bought them because in their respective segments they offered the best "bang for the buck"
I just "hate" the fact that some people cannot recognize what many professionals already have, not to mention way too many owners.
If you have read my posts I have repeatedly said I wish Hyundai offered two suspension setups in the Genesis, one like an Avalon/ES/ etc and another that is stiffer than the current model and more like a 5 series or Infiniti M sport. I will contend although I would prefer a softer ride there is nothing "wrong" in a mechanical sense with my early build Genesis. It says a lot that Hyundai can build a quiet, vibration free, excellent high speed cruiser at a price that no one can match. Go take a Genesis on some really bad pavement and pay attention beyond the firm nature of the suspension and see how really well the car stays composed.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
As for BMW and M-B, they don't need to spell it out because their badges, grill, etc. are already recognized by the general public, especially M-B. Why do you think Hyundai copied them? Also, they are not trying to break into a new segment or increase their presence in the luxury market because they are already there.
My comment was that why is Hyundai ashamed to spell out their name on the Genesis since it does on all its other offerings?
It is true that Hyundai has made tremendous strides over the past several years, but look where they started? No where to go but up.
Still not a luxury car and that is the topic here.
When you can post the results of a third-party, scientific survey that states that a very small percentage of car buyers (I am thinking under 5% would qualify as "very, very, very few people) today recognize the Hyundai brand logo, let us know.
Your comment re "why is Hyundai ashamed to spell out their name on the Genesis" tells us everything others need to know about you and why you continue to post here. There are several possible reasons why Hyundai didn't put "HYUNDAI" on the Genesis. I've already noted one: other cars in the Genesis' market don't do it. Heck, there isn't even a "Honda" name badge on the Accord anymore! Yet you assert the only reason Hyundai wouldn't put their name on their flagship car (in the USA) is because they are "ashamed" to spell out their name.
Not only don't you know much about the car marketplace, you don't know much about Koreans.
not so sure I'd give a lux pass to the Infiniti G although that car (along with the revisions made to the M) certainly did help to elevate the Infiniti brand past its previously Acura like levels.
Simply selling an expensive car, though (let's call it a $50k Equus) is not necessarily a pass into 'lux' land either, IMO. A lux entrant must still have to have that 'snobby' brand perception and that brand differentiation - in addition to the higher pricing. Hyundai can never be a 'luxury' brand while it caters almost exclusively to the lower ends of the market. They could literally buy a fleet of LSs, relabel them, and resell them at $60k+ and still not have a luxury car for sale - not as Hyundais.
Can they, however, make perfectly acceptable entrants in amongst those other high end near lux sedans, sure - they are already doing quite well at that.
Think the reason that the Gen does not sport a strong brand identification is obvious. Sooner or later Hyundai understands that it must become a brand of it own, at least if they really do want to compete with those lux J3 and German brands.
While introducing something like the Gen Sedan under the Hyundai brand certainly did save several billion won, I reject the whole notion that a new dealership network is necessarily cost prohibitive - heck, if Genesis can get enough notice/favorable reaction, then qualified dealers ought to be lined up for the privilege of selling the thing, perhaps even making money for Ulsan. That's happened before too.
That is faulty reasoning. You are assuming, incorrectly, that Toyota was forced to take the direction that it did. But we will never know that for sure, because "alternate realities" we can pop into and out of are a thing of sci-fi shows. So what would have happened had Toyota taken a different approach, e.g. badge their high-end cars as Toyotas, as they do elsewhere, or sell Lexus alongside Toyotas as they do with the Scion brand. We'll never know now. But we do know how Hyundai has fared selling the Genesis sedan as a Hyundai, in Hyundai dealerships. They have done quite well, outselling some competitors with the "snobby" brand names. So much for "brand consciousness."
Anyway... if autobuyers are so brand conscious, why is Hyundai/Kia grabbing marketshare vs. much more established brands--in fact against ALL other brands in the past year except maybe Subaru? It appears to me that if a company (like Hyundai) offers a good product at a good price, the buyers will be there, no matter if the brand isn't the likes of Toyota.
Or just maybe some are short changing how far Hyundai has come, as a brand and as a company? It's not the butt of Jay Leno jokes anymore. Now the "joke" is on Toyota et. al. Except they don't think it's very funny, do they?
The pace of change is much more rapid in this Internet age than it was a generation ago. That is true in the automotive market as it is elsewhere.
http://adage.com/moy09/article?article_id=140380
that one is easy
Hyundai does have a bit less luggage than it once did AND any company that sells things cheaper than about anybody else will do better when things get bad.
Ignore history if you wish, but there are more than a few precedents that illustrate that the car buyer is indeed brand sensitive and that things work out quite well with the whole new brand/new dealer approach, and FTM how things don't work when a mainstream brand tries to market something clearly out of their established product niches.
I guess that means that a full 40% are not willing to buy the brand?? Simply because it is a Hyundai? Astounding, and points out the problems that Hyundai still faces. Wonder what those percentages might be for those not willing to buy a Toyota, a Honda, a Nissan etc etc. 5%, 10%.??? :confuse:
So, what happened to all those "brand conscious" car buyers?? They can't be very brand conscious if they will switch to another brand--a brand not in the "mainstream" as you say--just to save a few bucks.
I am not ignoring history. But unlike some others here, I am not ignoring logic either.
:shades:
The other point is, 60% is a big improvement in brand recognition in just a few years for Hyundai. See for example:
Hyundai Motor Corp. surprised everyone this year by making the biggest increase in automotive brand value and recognition. Hyundai for the first time ever beat such marques as Porsche, Lexus, and Nissan. Honda and Toyota are now forced to take Hyundai more seriously as it is now closing in on them at a rapid pace.
http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/22496/car_focus/hyundai_closing_in_o- n_honda_as_their_brand_value_rises.html
Note this was as of 2006. The brand value has increased since then.
sure it is, but it is still real real bad. Maybe more to carolinas point that they had nowhere to go but up.
Think about it - just more than half of the carbuyers out there could even tell us what a Sonata is, for example? And the other half (40%) wouldn't even give a Hyundai product the time of day???? That, my friend, is a problem and why to many that the whole idea of Hyundai and luxury cars is a contradiction in terms.
Uh, no, that is not even close to reality. Closer to 7-1 in 2009.
Keep in mind that even if Hyundai's Sonata plant in Alabama were max'ed out, they could ship no more than about 200,000 cars a year out of there. So they will be at a big numerical disadvantage vs. Toyota + Honda + Nissan no matter what.
Also, it is no longer true that the Sonata is "thousands less" than comparably-equipped Camcordimas. For example, compare the invoice price less rebates of the base 2010 Camry and base 2010 Sonata and tell me what you find out (I already did that analysis, but I don't recall if it was for this discussion or another one.)
Again, if this brand consciousness is such a big force, it should be enough to outweigh the relatively small difference in price of, per your example, a Sonata to a Camry or Altima or Accord. Instead, these cars buyers are, according to you, willing to accept what they think is a clearly inferior car.
I don't see any factual basis for that claim, however. For example, a survey that shows most Sonata buyers feel their car is clearly inferior to a Camcordima but they bought the Sonata because it's cheaper.
Keep in mind that even if Hyundai's Sonata plant in Alabama were max'ed out, they could ship no more than about 200,000 cars a year out of there. So they will be at a big numerical disadvantage vs. Toyota + Honda + Nissan no matter what.
OK I 'll rephrase if it makes you feel better - how else do you explain the 7 Camcordimas they sell vs. the 1 Sonata. 2009 vs, 2007-08, nitpicker! The point still very much stands.
Oh, and yeah, they were production limited over there in Alabama and that is what limited Sonata sales and also created that excess demand that led to all those Hyundai signature pricing policies. Yeah right. If Hyundai could really sell that many Sonatas, the boats from Korea would be full. You claim to understand Koreans, and if you really do, you'll also know that to a Korean businessman there is nothing better than a sale - at any price.
the sound of something going right over your head - again. Has to do with the fact (or at least, the referenced marketing mavens 'facts') that ONLY 60% of the car buying public recognize the brand. Points out Hyundai's continued perception problem - a substantial portion (40%) of the car buying public don't know what they make - or don't care to know. You wouldn't suppose to want to estimate how many car buyers out there don't know (or care) about what the J3 (or even D2) make.
I wonder if that may have had something to do with the Lexus and Scion coming out with a separate dealer network. Toyota probably had excess capacity (of course, now they have so much excess capacity, they could start 3 more car companies....).
I said people do not recognize the Hyundai flying H, not that they do not recognize the name HYUNDAI. In fact, one of Hyundais' problems is overcoming the perception many still have about Hyundais, as captain pointed out.
Not recognizing the flying H as being a Hyundai back in 2005/2006/2007 does not mean someone does not know anything about the US auto market. Knowing what the H stands for doesn't mean YOU know anything about the auto market either.
Besides we are discussing the US automarket, not the world market in this topic.
Also, I probably understand more about Koreans than you do about Americans.
My comment re: Hyundai not putting its name on their premier vehicle says more about them than me. They are NOT proud of the vehicle.
As for BMW, M-B, et. al. badges, I've explained that several times and apparently you cannot compehend it. BTW, these cars are NOT in the Genesis market, much to your dismay-they are above it and well above it.
I know as much about the market place as you do, maybe more.
If 40% would not even consider purchasing a Hyundai, that is pretty darn bad. Most people will consider anything and then begin to rule them out due to various reasons. This means that Hyundai still has a significant perception problem to overcome before it can successfully move into the luxury market.
A luxury/prestige/premium car is one that is perceived as such by the general public, not just automotive magazine writers and posters on automotive blogs. Hyundai and Genesis are not there yet. Maybe someday, but not soon.
You must be kidding right??? OK, so in some board room a bunch of execs said "since we think we did a bad job on this vehicle lets not spell out Hyundai on the back" That is why they spent millions advertising it during the Superbowl and dare to compare it to some very fine (and expensive) true luxury makes.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Hyundai and Kia are grabbing market share in the low cost, economy car area. While they may have grabbed a few sales from BMW, M-B, etc., this is due to the Great Recession and the tide is already turning as M-B sales are going up again.
And don't forget, the primary sales point for the Genesis is its very low cost compared to real luxury cars. When the Great Recession ends, that won't be as important to may people.