OK on the Avalon, but the reasoning is still there that it is a Toyota and not a luxury vehicle and would not be perceived as one. Re: multiple comments. As I have said before I am responding to comments by other posters. Read the darn posts and you will see that. The system is set up so you can do this or it would not allow you to do it. . Also, there are others that make several posts each day and a few even go back and forth all day. "Definition of internet insanity" is someone who does not read or comprehend a post before he responds to it.
Oh and the Avalon didn't exist in 1989. The first year it came out was 1994. more nitpicking, in 89 it was called a Cressida quite a capable upscale sedan in its own right. It had a wonderful straight 6 in it that was shared with things like the (big) Supra and it was even RWD. The Avalon, for its first 10 years, very much an extended and well optioned Camry that earned a well deserved reputation for quality, reliability, and as 'an old folks car'. Kind of all changed with the 05 Avalon, but unfortunately not the 'old' folks' rap. But neither the Cressida nor the Avalon on their best days were 'luxury' cars, they were,instead, the kinds of Toyotas that elevated not only the Toyota brand but also the Lexus brand. .
There are many vehicles that don't have the manufacturer name spelled out. A simple emblem is all that is needed. For example a Chevy Tahoe doesn't (as well as several other Chevys) So what? It really doesn't mean anything.
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2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
You kids talk with reverence about the quality of Honda, Toyota and Nissan.
When I started playing this game, they were the butt of the quality joke.
They made high-quality, inexpensive cars while the US automakers scoffed at them and at the Federal Emission mandates in their bloated, over-confidence.
Guess what? The Koreans had their eyes wide-open. Now the Japanese are looking over their complacent, bloated shoulders at the meteoric rise of Hyundai.
I said people do not recognize the Hyundai flying H, not that they do not recognize the name HYUNDAI.
Yes, I referred to the "H" badge. Please re-read my post.
Specifically, you said YOU didn't recognize the Hyundai "H" logo before you bought an Azera. Not recognizing the flying H as being a Hyundai back in 2005/2006/2007 does not mean someone does not know anything about the US auto market.
Not know anything? Of course not. Be someone who follows the market closely? Not a chance. Just like someone who follows the car market closely would know the Avalon did not exist in 1989.
Consider.... if the folks at Hyundai are not proud of the Genesis because the name "Hyundai" is not on the sheet metal, then we must conclude, based on your logic:
* The folks (volks?) at Mercedes-Benz are not proud of the C Class, E Class, or S Class. * The folks at Honda are not proud of the Accord. * The folks at Toyota are not proud of the Camry. * And too many others to mention.
Yes, it's all about these companies being ashamed of their cars. That is the only logical explanation.
Here's an idea... rather than guesstimate, why don't you tell us the facts (for once?) about how many buyers would not buy a brand such as Toyota, Honda, Nissan, GM, Ford, or even Mercedes Benz or BMW?
Since we aren't nitpicking here, and within 30% of the truth is close enough for you... did you know the Genesis sedan is about the same price as competitors such as the Lexus GS and Infiniti M? So much for the argument that the only reason the Genesis is selling is because of its low price!
Also, I saw an ad today for a new 2010 Genesis 4.6 for $49.95. I thought it was a misprint, until I remembered what you said about there is nothing better a Korean businessmen likes more than a sale at any price. I might go down to the dealer tomorrow to get one, if there are any left.
And, guess what, I also saw an article tonight about Hyundai finding a way to build new factories or expand existing factories without any cost! Talk about amazing! I guess we'll be seeing lots more of those $49.95 Genesis 4.6s here any day now. (Oh yes, this new construction method also lets them add new capacity nearly overnight. Talk about a competitive advantage!)
Regarding the Lexus brand, sadly Toyota did create Lexus because it had to. Outside US (not sure about Canada) the Lexus LS was sold under the name Toyota Celsior and was considered among the top luxury cars in Asia. The other Lexus models were also sold as Toyotas, and people still proudly drive them around. What's the problem? Brand concious market. America was, and so far still is, a very brand concious market. It all started way back when GM and Ford started separating it's luxury division into Cadi and Lincolns. In the end the problem is America itself.
Even in Japan the Lexus brand didn't exist until 2006, when Toyota's reputation began falling rapidly and it's losing market share to Nissan and Honda. Heck Asian media were bashing this move as Toyota's obvious desperate measurement.
Hyundai is on the roll, indeed, and perception has changed for the regular market, and doing so in 10 yrs is an achievement, a big one. However the luxury market mindset is harder to change. Currently economic hardships made way for Hyundai's value trick, but how long will it last? And, as I said earlier (over and over again) the $50k market is different, value means less, image and prestige mean more. People still looking into this price range during these times aren't too concerned with money. There are exceptions, but the majority are into the stereotype, otherwise why BMW-5 or MB-E outsell competitors (by far) when Infiniti-M or Audi-A6 are just as good and even far cheaper? Image, prestige, and brand. Nobody to blame but the Americans themselves.
about how many buyers would not buy a brand such as Toyota, Honda, Nissan, GM, Ford, or even Mercedes Benz or BMW? not anything close to 40% that's for sure - for 40% of the buyers looking to buy anything and for those buyers to agree to dismiss a particular brand just because of a brandname is a BIG BIG problem as far as the Hyundai is concerned. To not recognize the issue is a BIG BIG problem is also not understanding the steep slope of the hill Hyundai still needs to climb.
Kids? Not quite. Yeah had a girlfriend too many years ago that was the proud owner of a used '69 (I think) Corolla, 1100 cc of screaming power that gave the term '[non-permissible content removed] Crap' its intended meaning. By the end of the 80s, it was those same mfgrs that put our American made products to shame. Not so sure it is reverence, or simply a recognition of fact. Hyundai has very much duplicated the path once followed by the Japanese, selling us genuine junk into the 90s and suddenly improving in the last 5 years or so, to a point that they do represent a viable alternative. Time span - about the same 20 years. Meteoric? not so sure, but history generally can and does repeat itself.
Is Hyundai the subject of much conversation in the J3 boardrooms? Sure better be.
When a Hyundai product can sell because of perceived quality and not price is when they have reached J3 levels of consumer acceptance. Higher prices will soon be a problem that the Koreans will face for the first time. The Indians and Chinese will blow them out of the water pricewise, and Hyundai will be forced to upgrade their products to a point that they have to sell quality. A lot easier to sell price. All you fanboys can look at all of this and claim product equality NOW - and you know what - you may be right. Hardly the point, though, convincing everybody else is quite a different matter, isn't it?
I remembered what you said about there is nothing better a Korean businessmen likes more than a sale at any price you need to investigate one word - subsidy .and then come back and tell me about how foolish this post really is.
We've been down this path before here, re the misconception that Hyundais sell only because of a big price advantage. Some people simply refuse to accept facts.
We've been down this path before here, re the misconception that Hyundais sell only because of a big price advantage. Some people simply refuse to accept facts.
<so I guess it a 'fact' if I were to put similar Sonatas on the lot right next to a Camry and/or an Accord, then folks are going to chosse the Korean product as often as they choose one of the Japanese ones. Get real. There is a reason why the Camcords far outsell the Sonatas/Optimas of the word - and it ain't because they are cheaper. Quite to the contrary of your hallucinations, sales numbers would seem to support the contention that if Hyundai did price (and sell) its products like the J3 Mfgrs. do - that they would not be able to 'sell' any Sonatas at all.
BTW if there are really folks out there paying more for a Hyundai product then they are the ones that are really really getting screwed when it comes trade-in time
oh, take off your 'H' colored glasses long enough to think about this logically - it's really not too tough. What this marketing maven is saying is that a full 40% of the car buying public do not consider buying a particular brand. Regardless of how good the product may be, or regardless of how much cheaper it might be? Do you honestly think there is any brand (outside of Chrysler) that has that bad a reputation - or even close? All brands will have a a relatively small percentage of dissatisified owners or fromer owners that will never buy that particular brand again, but for 40% of the population to dismiss a usually decent product just because of its brand name - is outrageous.
People buying Hyundais (as opposed to flapping their gums about them) are some of the smartest, most savvy buyers I've dealt with in 34 years. They are the people who do their homework BEFORE going shopping. This is the type of person who bought Honda and Toyota 20 years ago, before the herd.
From what I gleen in this forum. smart and savvy are, as always, the minority.
so I guess it a 'fact' if I were to put similar Sonatas on the lot right next to a Camry and/or an Accord, then folks are going to chosse the Korean product as often as they choose one of the Japanese ones. Get real.
I do agree with this statement, based on perceptions alone. However, I would love some sort of "blind" test where the people didn't know who the manufacturer was and then see which one they pick (after a test drive). I know this is practically impossible to do, but it makes me curious.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Although I do own a few Hyundais, I don't wear "H" colored glasses nor am I an illogical person. I have owned many vehicles in my 50+ years on this planet, worked in the auto parts and service industry, worked in retail sales and management, am college-educated, work for a major university in the IT department and read and understand things very well, thank you. What I can't understand is your need to constantly flip-flop and belittle people who do not share your opinions. You constantly twist stats and reports and other news to fit your opinions and beliefs, regardless whether your view reflects what is the generally accepted truths by industry.
I asked you a simple question. Where did you get your assertion that allowed you to jump from a specific article and suddenly apply that to a very generalized situation that had no bearing on the first post about the 40% spoken of by the "marketing maven"? Please answer where that info came from or please stop making such generalized leaps. :confuse:
"BTW if there are really folks out there paying more for a Hyundai product then they are the ones that are really really getting screwed when it comes trade-in time."
And the Honda and Toyota and Nissan owners will "get screwed" when they come in after 36,000 miles for repairs they must pay for which are covered by Hyundais' warranty.
I would love some sort of "blind" test where the people didn't know who the manufacturer was and then see which one they pick (after a test drive). I know this is practically impossible to do, but it makes me curious as would I- I suspect the Hyundai product would make a better showing than it does in simple sales stats. But you see, that's half of the problem - the car buyer is not blind to the favorable J3 perceptions or FTM the unfavorable Korean ones. Not that those perceptions are deserved anymore, just that they are still there - and likely will be for a while longer.
so I guess it a 'fact' if I were to put similar Sonatas on the lot right next to a Camry and/or an Accord, then folks are going to chosse the Korean product as often as they choose one of the Japanese ones.
That is a fact in today's market, yes, customers are comparing like-priced Sonatas to competitors and buying quite a few of those Sonatas--about 100k YTD. Did you bother to read my repost from October? Unless Hyundai is offering a large amount of "secret" cash back, moreso than Toyota, Hyundai's top two selling sedans cost about the same or even more than comparable Toyotas. So if a buyer goes to their local Hyundai dealer, then goes literally next door (on "auto dealer row" as in many cities including mine) to their local Toyota dealer, they will get similar pricing on at least those cars. There will not be "thousands of dollars" difference, as you have asserted. That was true a few years ago, but this is late 2009--a fact some folks here have trouble accepting.
I don't think it's any mystery why, for example, Camcordmias sell in larger quantities than Sonatas. You are talking here about three larger, more established companies and brands. They all had a big head start on Hyundai building a customer base, customer loyalty, customer perception, and dealer networks. They have plenty of production capacity (probably too much at this point). Hyundai is in catch-up mode. They have a relatively small dealer network compared to the J3. They have about 20 years to make up. Although you claim Hyundai could ship as many cars here as it could sell, that is not true, and if you had been following Hyundai closely you would know they have had supply problems in the past few years (e.g. running out of the popular Elantra a couple of years ago).
Then there is the general problem of many folks who still are thinking of Hyundai as it was in 1986, and taking every opportunity to tell others about that. Hyundai has to overcome that, just as the J3 did earlier in their histories.
But consider... despite those challenges, how is Hyundai doing lately? And before you say they are doing well only because their cars are cheap, take a look at the CR article posted a little while ago, and consider that there's many good cars available (e.g. Fords, Chevys, Nissans, even Toyotas and Hondas) at about the same price as comparable Hyundais. No one is going to buy a bad $20k car for a few hundred bucks difference.
I don't think it's any mystery why, for example, Camcordmias sell in larger quantities than Sonatas. You are talking here about three larger, more established companies and brands. They all had a big head start on Hyundai building a customer base, customer loyalty, customer perception, and dealer networks. They have plenty of production capacity (probably too much at this point). Hyundai is in catch-up mode. They have a relatively small dealer network compared to the J3. They have about 20 years to make up. ALL TRUE, and now maybe you can understand why it is that Hyundai can not be a luxury brand yet - 20 years hasn't past , and neither have many of those perceptions changed. I do think your theory that they would or could sell more Sonatas if they simply made more is flawed, however. Have yet to see a single Hyundai dealer out of several in my town that doesn't have his lots full of Sonatas and other Hyundai products, just like the Toyota, Honda and Nissan dealers down the street.
unfortunately for Hyundai, perhaps - I'm not the only one 'trapped in the past' or present. Understand that Hyundai is growing by leaps and bounds, as they should be. They have a decent product that is improving and overall a well conceived product line. If only a few 'American' Cos. I can think of had what Hyundai has, you and I would not be supporting them today.
I do think your theory that they would or could sell more Sonatas if they simply made more is flawed, however.
Uh... that is not my theory.
They could sell more if they wanted to drop their shorts on pricing. Why don't they, since we all know Korean businessmen will sell at any price? :P Why only a paltry $1000 rebate on the 2010 Sonata? Why not $5000? Maybe they have decided to forgo sales volume to keep prices up. Sound familiar? That is Honda's pricing strategy also.
Not long ago, Hyundai dealers were out or nearly out of 2009 Sonatas and Elantras. Go take a look at the "Prices Paid" discussions here if you don't believe me. That's because Hyundai's sales are up, how much in 2009? How "up" are Toyota's, Honda's, and Nissan's sales this year? Toyota has models starting at about $12k, Nissan at $10k. No problem offering inexpensive cars there.
The marketer said 60% of Americans today are now aware of Hyundai and willing to buy the brand, compared to just 40% two years ago.
For our doubters on Edmunds, that's solid proof that perception has already changed. People do more research, and are more educated than ever before. It no longer takes 20 years for perception to catch up with reality.
Hyundai has rocketed from what, 8th or 9th place to 5th place in 5 or 6 years. Their goal is to compete with Toyota in quality, engineering, and sales. Nothing will stop them. Anything Toyota does to stay ahead will be trumped. In order to stave them off, Toyota will be forced to maintain impeccable quality while reducing sticker prices. That's new territory for Toyota, because they have never been willing to reduce their profits.
Good point on the big change in buyer perception in a short time. Note that is a 20% increase in positive customer perception of Hyundai in just two years--a 50% increase. And note that overlaps with the introduction of the Genesis sedan about 16 months ago. I don't think it's a coincidence.
Captain1 is correct in what he says about brand perception, but is incorrect in degree. A perception change is not like a steady rain that accumulates evenly over hours. It's like an avalanche that starts with a small snowball that exponentially gains mass and momentum as it goes. Folks are very slow to jump on an empty bandwagon, but when it starts getting crowded, suddenly everyone wants on.
I remember debating this same principle in a digital photography forum 8-10 years ago. I was arguing that the popularity of digital photography would overtake chemical and paper in 5-6 years, and the other side was saying that it would take 20 years or even never. The moral of the story is to never underestimate the speed of technology and innovation, and people's willingness to adopt a good thing.
People buying Hyundais (as opposed to flapping their gums about them) are some of the smartest, most savvy buyers I've dealt with in 34 years. From what I gleen in this forum. smart and savvy are, as always, the minority.
Whoa, hey, seriously you need to watch what you're saying. Just because some of us don't choose a Genesis or in favor of Gen and Hyundai makes them not smart or savvy?
This is like a few months ago, when a poster (whos no longer here) stated that whoever choose MB or Lexus over Genesis are idiots. Yes your words are less harsh, but the meaning behind it is the same.
I understand that you're on Hyundai's side, but that doesn't mean you can pass judgements like this.
Lexus did it differently, really differently than Hyundai or even Infiniti when Toy introduced the brand. They did what they need to do to win the hearts of the luxury customers. Hyundai did what it had to do to win regular customers, luxury customers will have to wait for now.
Although I personally think your theory doesn't necessarily apply in the luxury car market, it's the great logic of the average community and your post is among the most reasonable ones I've read in ages.
don't know that I can agree with your example - how fast something like digital photography moves and is accepted is going to be supersonic in comparison to how fast a car buyers attitudes can and will change. A bandwagon effect though does exist in about everything we have opinions about.
It is common forum etiquette that double or triple posting is not kosher. Make one or two long posts multiquoting people if you want to or just wait for someone else to post a reply before you make another one.
Doing what you do just looks like spamming and/or you have an axe to grind with Hyundai which I think you really do.
I haven't ever owned a Hyundai and I don't sell them new, though I have sold a few used as tradeins, so I don't have love or dis-love for the brand.
Some of their newer cars are very good but I still think for the most part they are styled oddly, Genesis coupe has actually grown on me so it is ok, and most of their seats are uncomfortable to me.
My point is, opinions about cars moves a lot faster than it used to, and is moving ever-faster. In the 1970's, it took 20 years to change opinon and loyalty. In the 90's, it took more like 10 years. Today, opinion and loyalty can be changed significantly in 5 years. 10 years from now...?
This change is partly because people are able to do deep research in the comfort of their own homes, at no cost. It's partly because automobile quality has equalized. There used to be a huge gap in quality and reliability from the worst cars to the best. That gap has narrowed tremendously, and continuing to narrow.
that criticism could possibly fit someone that refuses to even consider Genesis (among others) and give it a test drive. they refuse to to even consider the Genesis largely because it is a Hyundai, not necessarily because of the car itself. Believe it or not, there are unarguably some qualities both tangible and intangible that a Hyundai product can not offer. Are they still 'idiots'?
Consider that there are people (myself included) who work for a living or for some other reason are away from their PCs for a day or more. In the meantime, there's been 40-50 posts. To reply to multiple posts with one post would IMO be very confusing. I think it's perfectly acceptable to reply to individual posts--even if that means posting 2 or more times in a row. It's easier to follow threads in a discussion that way.
No. People should be free to spend their money however they want. If they choose not to look at the Genesis when buying a car in that class, that's their business, and it doesn't matter why they didn't want to look at Hyundai. I do think it's a shame that some folks don't take time to look at all alternatives when making a major purchase like that. If they don't take a look, they'll never know for sure what they're missing. Or they could take a look simply to verify their opinion that the Genesis is not for them. But again, it's their time and money to spend as they choose.
Consider that there are people (myself included) who work for a living or for some other reason are away from their PCs for a day or more. In the meantime, there's been 40-50 posts. To reply to multiple posts with one post would IMO be very confusing. I think it's perfectly acceptable to reply to individual posts--even if that means posting 2 or more times in a row. It's easier to follow threads in a discussion that way.
Ehh I do it all the time but then again I don't have this obsessive need to respond to every single post like some people do.
Two posts back to back are not such a big deal but five, six, seven, eight? Come on that just looks obsessive.
they refuse to to even consider the Genesis largely because it is a Hyundai, not necessarily because of the car itself. Believe it or not, there are unarguably some qualities both tangible and intangible that a Hyundai product can not offer. Are they still 'idiots'? they refuse to to even consider the Genesis largely because it is a Hyundai, not necessarily because of the car itself. Believe it or not, there are unarguably some qualities both tangible and intangible that a Hyundai product can not offer. Are they still 'idiots'?
Idiot is not a word I would choose. I would choose "not savvy". It simply isn't smart to rule out a car based on ancient prejudices. Why, do you know anyone like that? I do. I have close family members that are too stubborn to change with the times, and it costs them dearly. I could pay car notes with the money they waste keeping their cars running.
Did you read Vlasic's article? It's well researched.
Comments
Oh and the Avalon didn't exist in 1989. The first year it came out was 1994.
Re: multiple comments. As I have said before I am responding to comments by other posters. Read the darn posts and you will see that. The system is set up so you can do this or it would not allow you to do it. .
Also, there are others that make several posts each day and a few even go back and forth all day.
"Definition of internet insanity" is someone who does not read or comprehend a post before he responds to it.
more nitpicking, in 89 it was called a Cressida quite a capable upscale sedan in its own right. It had a wonderful straight 6 in it that was shared with things like the (big) Supra and it was even RWD. The Avalon, for its first 10 years, very much an extended and well optioned Camry that earned a well deserved reputation for quality, reliability, and as 'an old folks car'. Kind of all changed with the 05 Avalon, but unfortunately not the 'old' folks' rap. But neither the Cressida nor the Avalon on their best days were 'luxury' cars, they were,instead, the kinds of Toyotas that elevated not only the Toyota brand but also the Lexus brand. .
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
When I started playing this game, they were the butt of the quality joke.
They made high-quality, inexpensive cars while the US automakers scoffed at them and at the Federal Emission mandates in their bloated, over-confidence.
Guess what? The Koreans had their eyes wide-open. Now the Japanese are looking over their complacent, bloated shoulders at the meteoric rise of Hyundai.
And they are afraid.
Very afraid.
I hope before long the Koreans will be looking over their shoulder at the Chinese and Indians. More choices for us and will keep the prices down.
Probably some very nice LUXURY cars coming out of there too.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Yes, I referred to the "H" badge. Please re-read my post.
Specifically, you said YOU didn't recognize the Hyundai "H" logo before you bought an Azera.
Not recognizing the flying H as being a Hyundai back in 2005/2006/2007 does not mean someone does not know anything about the US auto market.
Not know anything? Of course not. Be someone who follows the market closely? Not a chance. Just like someone who follows the car market closely would know the Avalon did not exist in 1989.
Consider.... if the folks at Hyundai are not proud of the Genesis because the name "Hyundai" is not on the sheet metal, then we must conclude, based on your logic:
* The folks (volks?) at Mercedes-Benz are not proud of the C Class, E Class, or S Class.
* The folks at Honda are not proud of the Accord.
* The folks at Toyota are not proud of the Camry.
* And too many others to mention.
Yes, it's all about these companies being ashamed of their cars. That is the only logical explanation.
Also, I saw an ad today for a new 2010 Genesis 4.6 for $49.95. I thought it was a misprint, until I remembered what you said about there is nothing better a Korean businessmen likes more than a sale at any price. I might go down to the dealer tomorrow to get one, if there are any left.
And, guess what, I also saw an article tonight about Hyundai finding a way to build new factories or expand existing factories without any cost! Talk about amazing! I guess we'll be seeing lots more of those $49.95 Genesis 4.6s here any day now. (Oh yes, this new construction method also lets them add new capacity nearly overnight. Talk about a competitive advantage!)
Outside US (not sure about Canada) the Lexus LS was sold under the name Toyota Celsior and was considered among the top luxury cars in Asia. The other Lexus models were also sold as Toyotas, and people still proudly drive them around.
What's the problem? Brand concious market. America was, and so far still is, a very brand concious market. It all started way back when GM and Ford started separating it's luxury division into Cadi and Lincolns. In the end the problem is America itself.
Even in Japan the Lexus brand didn't exist until 2006, when Toyota's reputation began falling rapidly and it's losing market share to Nissan and Honda. Heck Asian media were bashing this move as Toyota's obvious desperate measurement.
Hyundai is on the roll, indeed, and perception has changed for the regular market, and doing so in 10 yrs is an achievement, a big one. However the luxury market mindset is harder to change. Currently economic hardships made way for Hyundai's value trick, but how long will it last?
And, as I said earlier (over and over again) the $50k market is different, value means less, image and prestige mean more. People still looking into this price range during these times aren't too concerned with money. There are exceptions, but the majority are into the stereotype, otherwise why BMW-5 or MB-E outsell competitors (by far) when Infiniti-M or Audi-A6 are just as good and even far cheaper? Image, prestige, and brand. Nobody to blame but the Americans themselves.
not anything close to 40% that's for sure - for 40% of the buyers looking to buy anything and for those buyers to agree to dismiss a particular brand just because of a brandname is a BIG BIG problem as far as the Hyundai is concerned. To not recognize the issue is a BIG BIG problem is also not understanding the steep slope of the hill Hyundai still needs to climb.
And you know this because...? Can you reveal your source or is it a "state secret"? :confuse:
Is Hyundai the subject of much conversation in the J3 boardrooms? Sure better be.
When a Hyundai product can sell because of perceived quality and not price is when they have reached J3 levels of consumer acceptance. Higher prices will soon be a problem that the Koreans will face for the first time. The Indians and Chinese will blow them out of the water pricewise, and Hyundai will be forced to upgrade their products to a point that they have to sell quality. A lot easier to sell price.
All you fanboys can look at all of this and claim product equality NOW - and you know what - you may be right. Hardly the point, though, convincing everybody else is quite a different matter, isn't it?
you need to investigate one word - subsidy .and then come back and tell me about how foolish this post really is.
Uhh.... Hyundai has been selling on "quality" over price since 2004. That is reality....sorry if it alters your perception.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f142795/3606#MSG3606
<so I guess it a 'fact' if I were to put similar Sonatas on the lot right next to a Camry and/or an Accord, then folks are going to chosse the Korean product as often as they choose one of the Japanese ones. Get real. There is a reason why the Camcords far outsell the Sonatas/Optimas of the word - and it ain't because they are cheaper.
Quite to the contrary of your hallucinations, sales numbers would seem to support the contention that if Hyundai did price (and sell) its products like the J3 Mfgrs. do - that they would not be able to 'sell' any Sonatas at all.
BTW if there are really folks out there paying more for a Hyundai product then they are the ones that are really really getting screwed when it comes trade-in time
All brands will have a a relatively small percentage of dissatisified owners or fromer owners that will never buy that particular brand again, but for 40% of the population to dismiss a usually decent product just because of its brand name - is outrageous.
From what I gleen in this forum. smart and savvy are, as always, the minority.
I do agree with this statement, based on perceptions alone. However, I would love some sort of "blind" test where the people didn't know who the manufacturer was and then see which one they pick (after a test drive). I know this is practically impossible to do, but it makes me curious.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Although I do own a few Hyundais, I don't wear "H" colored glasses nor am I an illogical person. I have owned many vehicles in my 50+ years on this planet, worked in the auto parts and service industry, worked in retail sales and management, am college-educated, work for a major university in the IT department and read and understand things very well, thank you. What I can't understand is your need to constantly flip-flop and belittle people who do not share your opinions. You constantly twist stats and reports and other news to fit your opinions and beliefs, regardless whether your view reflects what is the generally accepted truths by industry.
I asked you a simple question. Where did you get your assertion that allowed you to jump from a specific article and suddenly apply that to a very generalized situation that had no bearing on the first post about the 40% spoken of by the "marketing maven"? Please answer where that info came from or please stop making such generalized leaps. :confuse:
And the Honda and Toyota and Nissan owners will "get screwed" when they come in after 36,000 miles for repairs they must pay for which are covered by Hyundais' warranty.
as would I- I suspect the Hyundai product would make a better showing than it does in simple sales stats. But you see, that's half of the problem - the car buyer is not blind to the favorable J3 perceptions or FTM the unfavorable Korean ones. Not that those perceptions are deserved anymore, just that they are still there - and likely will be for a while longer.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That is a fact in today's market, yes, customers are comparing like-priced Sonatas to competitors and buying quite a few of those Sonatas--about 100k YTD. Did you bother to read my repost from October? Unless Hyundai is offering a large amount of "secret" cash back, moreso than Toyota, Hyundai's top two selling sedans cost about the same or even more than comparable Toyotas. So if a buyer goes to their local Hyundai dealer, then goes literally next door (on "auto dealer row" as in many cities including mine) to their local Toyota dealer, they will get similar pricing on at least those cars. There will not be "thousands of dollars" difference, as you have asserted. That was true a few years ago, but this is late 2009--a fact some folks here have trouble accepting.
I don't think it's any mystery why, for example, Camcordmias sell in larger quantities than Sonatas. You are talking here about three larger, more established companies and brands. They all had a big head start on Hyundai building a customer base, customer loyalty, customer perception, and dealer networks. They have plenty of production capacity (probably too much at this point). Hyundai is in catch-up mode. They have a relatively small dealer network compared to the J3. They have about 20 years to make up. Although you claim Hyundai could ship as many cars here as it could sell, that is not true, and if you had been following Hyundai closely you would know they have had supply problems in the past few years (e.g. running out of the popular Elantra a couple of years ago).
Then there is the general problem of many folks who still are thinking of Hyundai as it was in 1986, and taking every opportunity to tell others about that. Hyundai has to overcome that, just as the J3 did earlier in their histories.
But consider... despite those challenges, how is Hyundai doing lately? And before you say they are doing well only because their cars are cheap, take a look at the CR article posted a little while ago, and consider that there's many good cars available (e.g. Fords, Chevys, Nissans, even Toyotas and Hondas) at about the same price as comparable Hyundais. No one is going to buy a bad $20k car for a few hundred bucks difference.
ALL TRUE, and now maybe you can understand why it is that Hyundai can not be a luxury brand yet - 20 years hasn't past , and neither have many of those perceptions changed. I do think your theory that they would or could sell more Sonatas if they simply made more is flawed, however. Have yet to see a single Hyundai dealer out of several in my town that doesn't have his lots full of Sonatas and other Hyundai products, just like the Toyota, Honda and Nissan dealers down the street.
Understand that Hyundai is growing by leaps and bounds, as they should be. They have a decent product that is improving and overall a well conceived product line. If only a few 'American' Cos. I can think of had what Hyundai has, you and I would not be supporting them today.
Uh... that is not my theory.
They could sell more if they wanted to drop their shorts on pricing. Why don't they, since we all know Korean businessmen will sell at any price? :P Why only a paltry $1000 rebate on the 2010 Sonata? Why not $5000? Maybe they have decided to forgo sales volume to keep prices up. Sound familiar? That is Honda's pricing strategy also.
Not long ago, Hyundai dealers were out or nearly out of 2009 Sonatas and Elantras. Go take a look at the "Prices Paid" discussions here if you don't believe me. That's because Hyundai's sales are up, how much in 2009? How "up" are Toyota's, Honda's, and Nissan's sales this year? Toyota has models starting at about $12k, Nissan at $10k. No problem offering inexpensive cars there.
For our doubters on Edmunds, that's solid proof that perception has already changed. People do more research, and are more educated than ever before. It no longer takes 20 years for perception to catch up with reality.
Hyundai has rocketed from what, 8th or 9th place to 5th place in 5 or 6 years. Their goal is to compete with Toyota in quality, engineering, and sales. Nothing will stop them. Anything Toyota does to stay ahead will be trumped. In order to stave them off, Toyota will be forced to maintain impeccable quality while reducing sticker prices. That's new territory for Toyota, because they have never been willing to reduce their profits.
Brand Romance is Gone
I think Mr. Vlasic is dead on.
But do we count the Nissan-Renault Alliance as one or two companies?
P.S. On a side note:
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/rankings/
Interesting how they place which vehicle in which category. I don’t know what their criterion is.
I remember debating this same principle in a digital photography forum 8-10 years ago. I was arguing that the popularity of digital photography would overtake chemical and paper in 5-6 years, and the other side was saying that it would take 20 years or even never. The moral of the story is to never underestimate the speed of technology and innovation, and people's willingness to adopt a good thing.
From what I gleen in this forum. smart and savvy are, as always, the minority.
Whoa, hey, seriously you need to watch what you're saying. Just because some of us don't choose a Genesis or in favor of Gen and Hyundai makes them not smart or savvy?
This is like a few months ago, when a poster (whos no longer here) stated that whoever choose MB or Lexus over Genesis are idiots. Yes your words are less harsh, but the meaning behind it is the same.
I understand that you're on Hyundai's side, but that doesn't mean you can pass judgements like this.
Lexus did it differently, really differently than Hyundai or even Infiniti when Toy introduced the brand. They did what they need to do to win the hearts of the luxury customers. Hyundai did what it had to do to win regular customers, luxury customers will have to wait for now.
Although I personally think your theory doesn't necessarily apply in the luxury car market, it's the great logic of the average community and your post is among the most reasonable ones I've read in ages.
Do I think anyone who chooses the aforementioned cars over Genesis are idiots? Of course not!
However, that criticism could possibly fit someone that refuses to even consider Genesis (among others) and give it a test drive.
Doing what you do just looks like spamming and/or you have an axe to grind with Hyundai which I think you really do.
I haven't ever owned a Hyundai and I don't sell them new, though I have sold a few used as tradeins, so I don't have love or dis-love for the brand.
Some of their newer cars are very good but I still think for the most part they are styled oddly, Genesis coupe has actually grown on me so it is ok, and most of their seats are uncomfortable to me.
This change is partly because people are able to do deep research in the comfort of their own homes, at no cost. It's partly because automobile quality has equalized. There used to be a huge gap in quality and reliability from the worst cars to the best. That gap has narrowed tremendously, and continuing to narrow.
they refuse to to even consider the Genesis largely because it is a Hyundai, not necessarily because of the car itself. Believe it or not, there are unarguably some qualities both tangible and intangible that a Hyundai product can not offer. Are they still 'idiots'?
Ehh I do it all the time but then again I don't have this obsessive need to respond to every single post like some people do.
Two posts back to back are not such a big deal but five, six, seven, eight? Come on that just looks obsessive.
Why don't we let the Hosts moderate the discussion, and we can talk about cars?
Idiot is not a word I would choose. I would choose "not savvy". It simply isn't smart to rule out a car based on ancient prejudices. Why, do you know anyone like that? I do. I have close family members that are too stubborn to change with the times, and it costs them dearly. I could pay car notes with the money they waste keeping their cars running.
Did you read Vlasic's article? It's well researched.