Majority of Chevy Dealers Marking Up Volts, GM Bans Out of State Sales
60% were told by the dealer they would have to pay a mark-up over MSRP. The largest group among those were those told they would have to pay at least $10,000 over MSRP, representing 37% of that group.
Through an interview with a California dealership the Times found out another new piece of information. GM had banned out-of-state sales.
Aug 06 Clarification: GM Has not Banned Dealers from Selling Volts Out of State
It is rare that I have to issue a clarification, especially in recent years, but in this case it is necessary.
In the last post I reported a New York Times piece in which the author wrote that GM had “banned” the sale of Chevrolet Volts to out-of-state buyers, based on an interview with a dealer in California.
The poll accompanying that post has already revealed that 30% of GM-Volt readers who have ordered a Volt, did so from out of state dealers. So obviously it is occurring anyway.
As readers have pointed out, GM cannot ban dealer practices, and only make suggestions. They are independent franchises.
“The dealer was misinformed,” said Volt spokesperson Rob Peterson of the dealer referenced in the Times story.
“We have not banned sales to residents outside of launch markets,” he said.
So feel free to go right out and buy a Volt from one of the launch market dealers, regardless of where you live!
A reporter seeks to interview someone who intends to buy a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt. Please write pr@edmunds.com no later than Friday, August 27 to tell why. Thanks, Jeannine Fallon Corporate Communications Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. Share your vehicle reviews
The fast development of technology in motor industry, everyone is anticipating an exciting advancement in our new models of cars. Fans of green autos are waiting on General Motors. They're releasing the Chevrolet Volt, or Chevrolets Volt, fairly soon. It will compete with the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius. The Volt is a plug-in hybrid, though. However, you will find troubling reports that dealerships might end up charging far above what they should for the automobile. A dealership told Edmunds that would be charging far above retail. Vehicle businesses aren't the only ones that do that; once you drop the price on something that's in demand, more individuals buy it.
GE said Thursday it will buy 25,000 electric vehicles for its fleet through 2015 in the largest-ever purchase of electric cars.
GE will begin with an initial purchase of 12,000 vehicles from General Motor Co., starting with Chevy Volt in 2011. The conglomerate said it "will add other vehicles as manufacturers expand their electric vehicle profiles."
The first Chevrolet Volt is expected to roll off production lines later this month.
GM confirmed the announcement with CNNMoney.com.
Does that mean GE will get a $90,000,000 tax credit from the Feds?
The form you have linked was the old tax incentive. According to the IRS it will go onto form 3800 as a general business credit. Of course GE can write off the rest of the cost as well. The tax credit is better than a deduction. If what you are saying is correct GM leasing would not be able to pass the credit onto lease customers as has been mentioned. I am sure that GE will make out on this purchase. Maybe even more than the little guy buying only one.
And deservedly so. There is nothing on the market that comes close to this technology. Imagine, an electric vehicle, series hybrid and parallel hybrid all in one package. Pure genius. Rick Wagoner, if you are listening CONGRATULATIONS!!!
You sure did. Not only will the Volt succeed, it is going to contribute to restoring good ole GM to its former prominence. It is no doubt a factor in the IPO potentially going off the charts. They are now going to increase the number of shares available and raise the price at the same time!! We will know how this all works out tomorrow but at this point it is looking VERY GOOD indeed.........
I guess "Obama Motors" wasn't such a bad thing after all. It saved a ton of well paying jobs and avoided GM being busted up and sold to the highest, (foreign?) bidders.
Yes I don't expect it to be here 15 years down the road as it along with other current tech will be gone then but those cars at the time still beat out all others.
Until we have smart meters that charge less per kilowatt during non-peak usage times, and until gas consistently remains above $3/gal, I don't think vehicles such as the Volt or Leaf will do very well.
To me, neither vehicle is very good as a stand-alone vehicle for a single person to use as their sole vehicle, primarly because the Leaf isn't a long distance cruiser, and the Volt is a poor long distance cruiser, since it's gas engine isn't very efficient (mid-30s MPG from what I've read) on highway cruises.
They would be good for commuters as the second car in the family, but to me if that's their best use, then you might was well make them smaller and cheaper. If the Leaf can only go 50 miles in real world driving with AC running on the highway, why even bother having seating for 4 and a trunk, when all it will ever be used for is by a single person commuting to work. Make it like an aerodynamic Smart car. And what does the Volt have causing it to cost over $10K more than the Prius??
And what does the Volt have causing it to cost over $10K more than the Prius??
The batteries for one thing. Like EVERY vehicle out there it is made for certain people. I drive about 12K a year 99% in town and maybe about 500 miles of that is more than 40 miles and no trips as we use family car for that. I can see myself in the Volt at the end of one year with the original tank of gas still in it.
I really feel for these people and their .30/kwh electric. I guess all that good wind power (that doesn't do much on hot days.....) is expensive. .10/kwh here so YMMV certainly applies to the volt.
Actually I'm getting wind energy for less than 7 cents per kWh from http://www.bluestarenergy.com/. I live in Illinois and the wind farm is in Texas.
Otherwise I agree. People buying plug-in hybrids and pure EVs would be wise to consider electric rates as well as gas prices when trying to determine which vehicle has a lower TCO.
dmathews3...Exactly my point. If you're looking for something strictly for a commuter car only, then a smaller 2-seat, electric only vehicle that could be made for about $20K would be the perfect fit. I just think if the Volt or Leaf are being marketed as the 2nd car used for commuters, they could have made them smaller at a lower price. Based on your driving, it seems like the Leaf would fit your driving style more.
So to me, the Leaf makes the better commuter only car, while the Prius makes the better commuter/highway/road trip car. To me the Volt is too big/expensive for commuter only car, but doesn't work for an overall multi-purpose car.
No way on the Prius as it is made in Japan with NO American content and I don't like supporting other counries when ours needs/deserves all our support.
"No way on the Prius as it is made in Japan with NO American content and I don't like supporting other counries when ours needs/deserves all our support. "
Tell that to the American dealer that I bought the car from He was glad I bought from Japan. Plus by buying a Prius, you're letting American manufactures understand better what the public wants and needs in a car in terms of quality, reliability, features, interior space, etc.
The Volt will periodically run the gas engine to maintain lubrication. That will use a tiny bit of gas. This idea of one-and-done for a tank of gas is nice but doesn't reflect the reality of maintaining the ICE/range-extender.
I'm not sure how much gas/month, say, is consumed. But if someone plans on running in EV mode the majority of the time they'd do fine, I'm sure, with just putting in 2 gallons or so every few months.
The Volt is not being marketed as a second car. From the Chevy site: "Powered by electricity without being tethered to electrical outlets, the Volt does everything a great car does .."
Why do you think the Volt won't work as an all-purpose car? The price may prove too big of a barrier for most folks, but usability is up with any other compact 4 door sedan.
I was responding to another poster who was indicating that 99% of the time it would be used as commute car, but in general, while I think it could be used as an all-purpose sedan, from what I've read the gas engine isn't very efficient, so for the long weekend trips, extended road trips, that require most of the power coming from the gas engine, it's not much more efficients as a Prius, which costs more but only has 10CuFt of cargo space (21CuFt in Prius) and less space in the 2nd row as compared to the Prius.
So while it can be used as a multipurpose vehicle, I wouldn't want to pay $10K more than the Prius for less space and marginally better MPG (or $/mile driven) for mixed use driving.
I leave E10 in a gas can and trickle it away over the course of 6 months running my lawn mower. What's left over gets dumped in my car. I've never had any problems starting/running the mower nor with my cars.
The worst thing I can see happening is the alcohol evaporating, turning 10 gallons of "gas" (90% gasoline, 10% ethanol) into 9 gallons of gas. Alcohol is non-residual; that's why it makes for a good cleaner for things like electronics.
Phase separation is a serious problem with ethanol fuels. It has been the greatest problem with boats because they are not used frequently enough to use all the fuel. The alcohol does not "evaporate" - it absorbs water from condensation and the atmosphere and separates from the gasoline. Don't believe me? Put a little water in a jar with E10, mark the water level with a scratch or a marker, shake it up and see what happens.
Professional loggers who are in regions where they cannot obtain pure gas (www.pure-gas.org), do not keep E10 fuel for more than 3 or 4 weeks for their expensive 2 stroke chainsaws. For 4 strokes, 8 weeks is the accepted shelf life unless the fuel is stabilized.
Ask any mechanic about ethanol fuel and fuel systems. Every marina near me has "help wanted" signs for marine mechanics. One shop has gone from doing 3 or 4 carbs a year to a long waiting list in the hundreds. My own boat is in the shop for clogged fuel injectors due to ethanol fuel - the only fuel available in my area.
You are entitled to your own opinions - but not to your own facts.
Still no citation. So I went searching. http://www.fuel-testers.com/expiration_of_ethanol_gas.html gives a lot of lip service about a 60-90 day shelf life, but it's entirely based on the assumption that E10 will somehow find 3.8 tsp/gallon of water. So a Volt with 8 gallons of gas would have to have over 5 ounces of water before separation would even begin. The data says 100 days @ a constant 70% humidity. I would fall apart under those conditions before my gas did.
In most parts of the country you will suck in a lot of moisture when you open the tank to fill it will gas. That is part of the swooshing sound when you remove the cap. I would think 70% humidity would be a low average for most of the USA. Especially in the summer.
Based on what I've read, if you commute 30 miles round trip to work (about 7500 miles per year) and have long road trips of 5000 miles per year, the total cost on Volt will be about $720/year based on 4cents per mile on electric on the Volt and 35 mpg on the long road trips using the gas engine at $3/gal. A Prius doing the same thing would cost $750 in gas.
So it's almost the same, but if you do a lot more road trips then the Prius wins and if you do a lot less, then the Volt wins. Also, the Volt only as 10CuFt of cargo space (21 in the Prius) and a pretty small back seat. Based on this, it seems like the Volt is good for a commuter car, but as a full-time family car it would be better to have a Prius, again, depending on your driving style and cargo needs.
Hard to believe you have to put stabil in a Volts gas tank and when do you charge it and how did you get the figure of 4 cents a mile on electricity? Going green seems to cost alot of money.I would think natural gas cars would be more affordable. My wifes has found green religion lately and it scares me.40k for a volt not a price for the middle class I say. :lemon: I took her to get a Prius @28K and she couldn't use the rear camera. She has a IS Lexus.I think the Nissan leaf is for her and keep the IS.Green is trendy now.We will see how long. :sick:
3.8 tsp per gallon; well over 5 ounces would be required for the Volt's 9.3 gallon tank. A full Volt gas tank will not suck in lots of air as there's simply no room for it. There won't be any condensation beyond a trivial amount along the filler neck.
Since you seem to know about this better than the engineers who designed the car, why don't you enlighten us as to where the water-laden air will come from? The tank is sealed and the car barely uses any gas. Thus the tank is rarely opened for refueling. There's no air entering the tank (as it's full there's no room for it and it's sealed anyway) so where's the water coming from?
I'll add that while opening an empty tank to refuel lets air in, that air is pushed right back out before condensation can occur as the tank is filled with gas.
BTW, when you make statements like "You are entitled to your own opinions - but not to your own facts." and "Chemistry and physics only apply to the rest of us - I'm sure you are exempt." you don't help your cause. Insulting others instead of stating your case and providing examples with supporting arguments - which you've yet to do - hurts your credibility far more than any honest mistakes on my part might hurt mine.
That moisture-laden air is pushed right back out when it's displaced by the gas you pump in. Net effect: virtually no added moisture to the fuel system. If this weren't the case, vehicles running on E10, E85, and non-ethanol gas, diesel, and any other fuel you pump would always over time develop problems with water in their tanks.
On a regular car water gets run through the engine with the gas. Some water is trapped by the filter. I know I did not drain my chipper very well when I put it away last winter. This spring when I put fresh gas in it would not start. I took the carb apart and it was all gummed up. So what is to keep that from happening if the engine does not cycle through the gas on a regular basis. If it is on a GM lease, no problem, tell them to come get their piece of junk. I would not count on many being sold to individuals anyway. GE has contracted for half the first years production. The Feds bought 89% of the Malibu hybrids. So only a few will be out there for the masses to buy. And expect a premium price as a just got to have it buyer.
My mistake. The Feds only bought 64% of the Malibu Hybrids. You can count on US buying all the excess Volts that get built.
The U.S. government buys hybrids almost exclusively from Ford and GM. It bought only 17 Prius models and five of Honda’s Civic hybrids in the past two years. Chrysler Group LLC stopped making hybrids in 2008 after about two months of production.
The government purchased about 64 percent of GM’s Chevy Malibu hybrid models and 29 percent of all Ford Fusion hybrids manufactured since Obama took office in 2009, the data show. GM stopped making the Malibu hybrid in 2009 after lack of consumer demand.
The Volt will run the ICE on occasion to exercise the components and maintain lubrication. Your build-up problem shouldn't occur. That exercising is how a Volt that's driven on EV miles only will still go through a tank of gas every year or so.
I just dumped my lawn mower gas can into my car so the gas can will sit empty through winter. The E10 is from June or thereabouts.
Its your choice to treat your possessions as you wish - but it is irresponsible to present the use of 5 to 6 month old E10 as a wise practice to others on a public forum.
Look - no citations again. Also none for other such controversies as gravity, a round earth and the sun setting in the west.
Well, it's also irresponsible to misrepresent the truth. Which in this case is that the Volt's gas tank won't have problems with E10 due to condensation. Chevy's chief engineer has already debunked that. Yet you persist.
In all serious I would like to see something on how water gets into a sealed gas container. The references I've found are all about marine usage which (apparently) does not involve sealed tanks and certainly means the tanks are being filled in an environment that isn't friendly to E10 or any petroleum-based fuel.
"Also none for other such controversies as gravity, a round earth and the sun setting in the west. "
That the earth is round is a relatively recent revelation given the length of time humans have been "civilized".
I got a feeling that the Volt will not get even close to 40 miles in real cold or hot weather. No free lunch when you have a battery powered HVAC system. The battery use will be directly relative to the power consumed to keep the occupants warm or cool. So the engine will come into play more than most people would hope for.
DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors now says its Chevrolet Volt electric car will go 25 to 50 miles on battery power, depending on temperature, terrain and driving techniques.
In the past GM has said the rechargeable Volt could go 40 miles on battery before a gas engine kicks in to power the car for another 300 miles.
Spokesman Rob Peterson said Thursday that the change was made because GM now has more experience driving the Volt. He says the new range is more realistic and based on extensive driving tests.
The rechargeable Volt is due in showrooms in December. It has a base sticker price of $41,000.
According to Edmunds the TMV with typically equipped options will be $43,685. I can think of a lot of nice cars for that money. And before you start counting your $7500 tax credit, better check with your CPA. You may not qualify on a lease or if you are subject to AMT.
The credit is not a refundable credit either. You must have at least 7500 in tax liability.
One way to increase your tax liability enough to get the most out of the credit for either the Leaf or the Volt would be to fully or partially convert regular IRA to a Roth.
Have you seen that you can buy a version of Stabil that is labelled "for ethanol fuels"? Their formulas are proprietary so it would be very interesting to know if the regular Stabil differs from the "Stabil for ethanol fuels" or if its the same product with two different labels.
Comments
60% were told by the dealer they would have to pay a mark-up over MSRP. The largest group among those were those told they would have to pay at least $10,000 over MSRP, representing 37% of that group.
Through an interview with a California dealership the Times found out another new piece of information. GM had banned out-of-state sales.
http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/06/majority-of-chevy-dealers-marking-up-volts-gm-bans- -out-of-state-sales/
So how many buyers will they get at $50k each?
Clarification: GM Has not Banned Dealers from Selling Volts Out of State
It is rare that I have to issue a clarification, especially in recent years, but in this case it is necessary.
In the last post I reported a New York Times piece in which the author wrote that GM had “banned” the sale of Chevrolet Volts to out-of-state buyers, based on an interview with a dealer in California.
The poll accompanying that post has already revealed that 30% of GM-Volt readers who have ordered a Volt, did so from out of state dealers. So obviously it is occurring anyway.
As readers have pointed out, GM cannot ban dealer practices, and only make suggestions. They are independent franchises.
“The dealer was misinformed,” said Volt spokesperson Rob Peterson of the dealer referenced in the Times story.
“We have not banned sales to residents outside of launch markets,” he said.
So feel free to go right out and buy a Volt from one of the launch market dealers, regardless of where you live!
http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/06/clarification-gm-has-not-banned-dealers-from-selli- ng-volts-out-of-state/
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
GE will begin with an initial purchase of 12,000 vehicles from General Motor Co., starting with Chevy Volt in 2011. The conglomerate said it "will add other vehicles as manufacturers expand their electric vehicle profiles."
The first Chevrolet Volt is expected to roll off production lines later this month.
GM confirmed the announcement with CNNMoney.com.
Does that mean GE will get a $90,000,000 tax credit from the Feds?
link title
So, no, they only get a $30,000,000 tax credit......:)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxphevb.shtml
Yes you did, it is now included with such fine cars as the Ford Probe, Chevrolet Citation, Chevrolet Vega and the Plymouth Reliant.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It's just that being Motor Trends Car of the Year doesn't guarantee that the car will be good. MT has picked a few dogs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
To me, neither vehicle is very good as a stand-alone vehicle for a single person to use as their sole vehicle, primarly because the Leaf isn't a long distance cruiser, and the Volt is a poor long distance cruiser, since it's gas engine isn't very efficient (mid-30s MPG from what I've read) on highway cruises.
They would be good for commuters as the second car in the family, but to me if that's their best use, then you might was well make them smaller and cheaper. If the Leaf can only go 50 miles in real world driving with AC running on the highway, why even bother having seating for 4 and a trunk, when all it will ever be used for is by a single person commuting to work. Make it like an aerodynamic Smart car. And what does the Volt have causing it to cost over $10K more than the Prius??
The batteries for one thing. Like EVERY vehicle out there it is made for certain people. I drive about 12K a year 99% in town and maybe about 500 miles of that is more than 40 miles and no trips as we use family car for that. I can see myself in the Volt at the end of one year with the original tank of gas still in it.
Otherwise I agree. People buying plug-in hybrids and pure EVs would be wise to consider electric rates as well as gas prices when trying to determine which vehicle has a lower TCO.
That presents another problem. Gas does not do well sitting in the tank. Will it gum up the engines that rarely run to recharge the batteries?
So to me, the Leaf makes the better commuter only car, while the Prius makes the better commuter/highway/road trip car. To me the Volt is too big/expensive for commuter only car, but doesn't work for an overall multi-purpose car.
Tell that to the American dealer that I bought the car from He was glad I bought from Japan. Plus by buying a Prius, you're letting American manufactures understand better what the public wants and needs in a car in terms of quality, reliability, features, interior space, etc.
I'm not sure how much gas/month, say, is consumed. But if someone plans on running in EV mode the majority of the time they'd do fine, I'm sure, with just putting in 2 gallons or so every few months.
Why do you think the Volt won't work as an all-purpose car? The price may prove too big of a barrier for most folks, but usability is up with any other compact 4 door sedan.
So while it can be used as a multipurpose vehicle, I wouldn't want to pay $10K more than the Prius for less space and marginally better MPG (or $/mile driven) for mixed use driving.
If its like the Prius, in northern climates it will run for heat/charging....and I've seen a Prius do this on a cold winter day.
I leave E10 in a gas can and trickle it away over the course of 6 months running my lawn mower. What's left over gets dumped in my car. I've never had any problems starting/running the mower nor with my cars.
The worst thing I can see happening is the alcohol evaporating, turning 10 gallons of "gas" (90% gasoline, 10% ethanol) into 9 gallons of gas. Alcohol is non-residual; that's why it makes for a good cleaner for things like electronics.
Professional loggers who are in regions where they cannot obtain pure gas (www.pure-gas.org), do not keep E10 fuel for more than 3 or 4 weeks for their expensive 2 stroke chainsaws. For 4 strokes, 8 weeks is the accepted shelf life unless the fuel is stabilized.
Ask any mechanic about ethanol fuel and fuel systems. Every marina near me has "help wanted" signs for marine mechanics. One shop has gone from doing 3 or 4 carbs a year to a long waiting list in the hundreds. My own boat is in the shop for clogged fuel injectors due to ethanol fuel - the only fuel available in my area.
You are entitled to your own opinions - but not to your own facts.
But it's simply not gonna happen. The Volt's gas tank is sealed: http://www.biofuelshub.com/features/4-features/1075-does-e10-have-a-shelf-life
And here's the Volt's chief engineer on the subject: http://gm-volt.com/2009/05/26/volt-chief-engineer-on-chevy-volt-gas-tank-size-an- d-stale-gas-management/
ALL cars have sealed fuel tanks - this is not unique to the Volt.
You really think 3.8 tsp of water is an unreasonable assumption? How do you think it was calculated? You don't believe in condensation?
Chemistry and physics only apply to the rest of us - I'm sure you are exempt.
So it's almost the same, but if you do a lot more road trips then the Prius wins and if you do a lot less, then the Volt wins. Also, the Volt only as 10CuFt of cargo space (21 in the Prius) and a pretty small back seat. Based on this, it seems like the Volt is good for a commuter car, but as a full-time family car it would be better to have a Prius, again, depending on your driving style and cargo needs.
Going green seems to cost alot of money.I would think natural gas cars would be more affordable.
My wifes has found green religion lately and it scares me.40k for a volt not a price for the middle class I say. :lemon: I took her to get a Prius @28K and she couldn't use the rear camera. She has a IS Lexus.I think the Nissan leaf is for her and keep the IS.Green is trendy now.We will see how long. :sick:
Since you seem to know about this better than the engineers who designed the car, why don't you enlighten us as to where the water-laden air will come from? The tank is sealed and the car barely uses any gas. Thus the tank is rarely opened for refueling. There's no air entering the tank (as it's full there's no room for it and it's sealed anyway) so where's the water coming from?
I'll add that while opening an empty tank to refuel lets air in, that air is pushed right back out before condensation can occur as the tank is filled with gas.
BTW, when you make statements like "You are entitled to your own opinions - but not to your own facts." and "Chemistry and physics only apply to the rest of us - I'm sure you are exempt." you don't help your cause. Insulting others instead of stating your case and providing examples with supporting arguments - which you've yet to do - hurts your credibility far more than any honest mistakes on my part might hurt mine.
The U.S. government buys hybrids almost exclusively from Ford and GM. It bought only 17 Prius models and five of Honda’s Civic hybrids in the past two years. Chrysler Group LLC stopped making hybrids in 2008 after about two months of production.
The government purchased about 64 percent of GM’s Chevy Malibu hybrid models and 29 percent of all Ford Fusion hybrids manufactured since Obama took office in 2009, the data show. GM stopped making the Malibu hybrid in 2009 after lack of consumer demand.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-23/obama-bolsters-u-s-hybrid-auto-sales-in- -waning-consumer-market.html
I just dumped my lawn mower gas can into my car so the gas can will sit empty through winter. The E10 is from June or thereabouts.
Look - no citations again. Also none for other such controversies as gravity, a round earth and the sun setting in the west.
In all serious I would like to see something on how water gets into a sealed gas container. The references I've found are all about marine usage which (apparently) does not involve sealed tanks and certainly means the tanks are being filled in an environment that isn't friendly to E10 or any petroleum-based fuel.
"Also none for other such controversies as gravity, a round earth and the sun setting in the west. "
That the earth is round is a relatively recent revelation given the length of time humans have been "civilized".
DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors now says its Chevrolet Volt electric car will go 25 to 50 miles on battery power, depending on temperature, terrain and driving techniques.
In the past GM has said the rechargeable Volt could go 40 miles on battery before a gas engine kicks in to power the car for another 300 miles.
Spokesman Rob Peterson said Thursday that the change was made because GM now has more experience driving the Volt. He says the new range is more realistic and based on extensive driving tests.
The rechargeable Volt is due in showrooms in December. It has a base sticker price of $41,000.
One way to increase your tax liability enough to get the most out of the credit for either the Leaf or the Volt would be to fully or partially convert regular IRA to a Roth.