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Classic Musclecars
What's a musclecar? And which of them are
classics? Catch up on our conversation. Then, let's
hear what you have to say about it!
carlady/host
classics? Catch up on our conversation. Then, let's
hear what you have to say about it!
carlady/host
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The term Muscle Car has a multitude of definitions, just like sports car. My first high compression, high octane experience was at the wheel of a muscle yacht. My parents owned a 1969 Mercury Marquis with a 429 4V premium fuel only. It was basically a Ford police cruiser package in a 4 door Mercury. It would bury the speedo hand long before it hit top end and could lay down a patch of rubber that sent most of the pony cars cowering for cover! After watching the movie White Lightening with Burt Reynolds, we all went out and flipped the breather lids over (try that today!) and listened to them howl all the way home!
My mom was the lead foot of the family and loved to drive the big Merc hard! I remember her surprising a kid in Nova or something while we were Christmas shopping one year. We had been side by side at about 3 lights and he obviously had an idle problem (or just like the sound of the glass packs!) and sat through each light revving the motor. By the third light, Mom was fed up with it and took it as a personal challenge. When the light went green, she kicked that 429 and I shall never forget the look of astonishment on that kids face through the tire smoke!
As Tim Allen would say, R R R!
Great topic, let's keep it up!
It was always fun to be sitting at a light and watch the reactions of people in the other lane(s). And sitting in the passenger side with a driver who knows what he's doing in a car like that, major adrenaline kick!
#4-I always like to hear peoiple share Mopar memories. Although I was a Chevy guy, and still like the sound of those screaming small blocks, I've owned a number of Mopars. I sold the 55 Chev with Corvette motor to buy a 65 Plymouth BelvedereII 2dr hardtop-copper with black interior. Had the 383/330 horse, with police suspension and brakes and that huge Chrysler 4speed. I loved that car, and would buy it back if I could. I also had Dodge Dart, and a couple of Dodge vans. Still have latestone , a conversion with all the goodies. I remember the day when a neighbor drove up in a brand new 67 GTX with the 426 street hemi and 4speed. Jeez could that thing fly!
The basic idea originated from the '62 Corvair Monza, which was the first modern American car to come up with the marketing concept of small car/ big engine, in a 150hp turbo package. Soon after, this was capitalized upon further by Ford with the Mustang,(late 1964) and then John Delorean "invented" the GTO,(1966 was it?) which was basically a Tempest body stuffed with a formidable large-bore Pontiac engine. Chrysler probably producted the most fearsome of the muscle cars.
After about a 12 year run, the muscle car fell victim to rising insurance rates, emissions controls and the first gas crisis in the US.(1973.
So we should all show a bit more respect for the Corvair, IMO. I also think these cars (the true muscle cars, not the pretenders) will remain one of the hottest trends in the collectible market as the new generation of collectors emerges.
Someone came over to me in a parking lot one time and told me there were only about 3,000 '70 Cougar convertibles made. Anybody know about that?
on on
k
About 4300, including both the 76A convertible (2,322) and the 76B convertible (1,977).
Unfortunately, very often in the weirdo collectible car market rarity does not translate into more value. For instance, there are easily twice as many 1970 Mustang convertibles, and yet they are worth twice as much or more than the Cougar in today's market.
Nonetheless, the '70 Cougar is a nice ride, and any convertible that can cruise modern highways will always have some appeal and is always worth saving (although maybe not worth fully restoring right now).
BTW Dklynn, I tried my best to talk my dad into buying me a 1969 Cougar XR-7, red w/a white vinyl top and those beautiful (and heavy) Mercury wire wheel covers and a 390 4V! He want me in something more economical so we picked up a 64 1/2 Mustang coupe with a *little* 289 in it!
Keep that cat purring,
Hal
I thought Pony cars were the Mustang, Firebird, Camaro, Barracuda, and Challenger. The latter two -- when armed with a 426 Hemi -- were awful!
In the late 50s and early 60s, there were some awfully fast cars -- anything with an optional huge engine. I guess the Chrysler 300 was as fast as I knew of -- driven by the Texas DPS.
I owned a '66 Chevelle SS -- 396, Muncie 4 speed, positraction, bucket seats. It was a neat car, but the big block engine was a disappointment -- never as fast as the 348 or 409.
That car was stolen and I got a '66 GTO -- same everything except a 389 with a big Carter AFB -- car was fast -- faster than the Chevelle.
We had a '69 Camaro -- 350 with a 2 BBL -- not very impressive. Was easily beaten by a Mazda rotary!
Funny, I don't remember what times stock Dodges and Plymouths turned, but the GTO turned in the low 13s while the super stock Dodges and Plymouths were turning in the nines.
The Cougar was such an outstanding design when it hit the market -- first car designed to appeal to women. As such, it wasn't real fast, but it was real comfortable. I went to buy one, couldn't get waited on, went down the street and bought the Chevelle.
Nobody who ever raced against Dodge or plymouth could ever forget their awesome speed and curious way their rear ends lifted as they came off the line. Their engines were fairly quiet at idle, but they were absolutely earth shaking when the driver got on the throttle as the lights were coming down.
Green, the engine noise was huge -- the car would raise up -- actually raise up about two or three inches -- wheels hanging out of the fenders and blue rubber smoke completely hiding the rear tires -- just boiling out of the fender! Night racing you could see a red glow all around the tires, blue flames coming out of the dumps behind the front wheels! These were awesome cars.
But, on the street, the small block chevy with a humpty dumpty Duntov 30-30 cam -- headers -- 12.5 : 1 compression ratio, 2-4 BBls -- absolutely quick. I liked the 302 (when it came out). but before that, I liked the 283 and 327.
I'll never understand why Chevrolet settled on the 305 and 350 engines!
Oh well!
What fun when gas was cheap!!!!
Hal
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Whew!
Now, if the guy was working on a 67 or 68, he might get confused, but 72 and 68 were two whole bodystyles apart!
Isn't it strange how some people function that way. They don't know or care what they drive. The car referred to above developed a severe oil leak Wednesday night and my son has been in a funky mood ever since (we're going to fix it this weekend). I understand why, because when you ascribe to the theory that you *are* what you drive and it breaks down, you're nothing!
Ah well, in the automotive food chain some are destined to be predators and some are destined to be sea cows!
Hal
Used to one could look at the small letters on tailight lenses and get a good idea of a car's year. I don't know if that still works on more modern cars.
Might be some confusion about the bearings versus the car model year. Could be that the same bearing fits a few model years -- but then, everybody knows that.
Talking about muscle cars -- left out the 442 Olds. Raced against Paula Murphy when she drove one -- maybe the only one in southern California at the time. I think her husband was a dealer.
Ford 390 could be made very fast, but the engine was so heavy -- seems like it was a Y block -- a lot of iron.
People don't realize it, but the Chevy 265 was a technical wonder when it hit the market -- it was as refined to us then as modern engines seem refined today.
No Hemi drivers out there?
Later,
Hal
Also i agree the term "muscle car" is a retro-fitted term..it wasn't used at the time, and I'd also agree the first "pure" muscle car would be the 1964 GTO...for which we can thank....John DeLorean!
I don't think the 409 Chevy qualifies as the original muscle car, although it's a good suggestion, because to be accurate the term inplies big engine stuffed into smaller body, and the '61 Chevy 409 was hardly a small car. So the Corvair was the "inspiration" for the concept of the muscle car, but was not actually powerful enough to be one. One should remember that in the early 1960s having a smaller car with a big engine and bucket seats was strictly a foreign car package back then.
5.0 at the light,he had no idea what the hell beat him,I told the kid this car is older then you,The
days of 100 octane sunoco at 30 cents
On muscle cars, often an engine switch and some decals and a few bolt on parts could double or triple the value of a car.
One has to be very careful these days.
To me, both are equally interesting and valid, but have different objectives.
No car I raced would ever be valuable as a restored original -- too many engine changes and too many modifications, but the cars are still valid street/strip machines -- as original as they were when they raced.
I didn't do much work on Mopars -- I raced against them, but I was deep into Chevies. I don't recall ever seeing a big hemi (426) in front of a 4 - speed.
Oddly, I did repair a chrysler 4 speed which was a T-10 with a longer tailshaft and housing. Blew third gear and cluster (didn't they always) in a street race with my '55 210 Chev with a 302.
The Mopars I raced against all had pushbutton automatics (727?). I remember one guy in the street classes had a clever cartoon on the trunk -- showed a dumb looking guy sitting in a rocking chair pushing transmission buttons. Caption said, "You lose."
440 sixpack was a serious engine and was, in some ways, better than the hemi because (in my opinion) its torque was more controllable and usable. People should remember that the SS Dodges (dominated the strips) all had chassis mods to put all that power on the strip.
But, if I could have an engine to sit in my game room, it would be a 426 Hemi. Big money potential there -- market a plastic model kit of a full size Hemi with 2 Four BBls!
Maybe a small block chevy (2 four BBls); big block Ford and a 389 Pontiac with 3 deuces.
You're right on the two classes of cars. Take a look at Hemmings or any other "classic" car ads and you would be astounded at the 1965-66 Mustangs in GT trim, gauge pod and fog lights all advertised as "original" More advertised in one magazine than Henry & the boys produced in those years! Mustangs are easy to fake also. I've noticed the huge number of GTOs too. I've talked to some Mustang guys that were just in it for the bucks. They'll tell you the car came with this and that and the other, then when you pin them down for a build sheet or invoice, it always becomes Oh, it was a dealer installed item or it "could" have been equipped that way.
Of course, what you want is in the eye of the beholder. Like the definition of sports car and other hotly debatable topics, to each his own. I'd much rather have a sharp daily driver keeping with the flavor of the period that I could dust some doors with than a pristine perfect trailer doll that only ran to get up and down the ramps.
Me, I'm looking for that elusive 1967 W-Code (or was it X?) Mustang fastback that Ford "accidently" dropped the 427 NASCAR wedge head into......;)
No, most "muscle cars" are cars with smaller compact bodies stuffed with very large engines, and most were coupes or convertibles.
A 1965 Impala four-door is just a nice old used car...it would have some modest value, depending largely on condition, and the a/c is also a plus, but 4-door cars, usually built in large numbers, simply can't compete with the scarcer and more attractive 2-door and convertible versions of that same Impala, so the value is always considerably less. Figure $3,500 to $5,000 for a very nice car, but with no foreseeable appreciation in the future aside from inflation increases. Drive and enjoy!
I was wondering what you think a fair price is for a 1969 Z-28 DZ 302 4 speed car? The car is in near perfect condition with 32,000 miles.The only problem is that the paint is slightly oxidized? I am asking because I have an opportunity to purchase this piece for what I believe is a good price.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
In 1968-69, there were 26,213 Z-28s of all types/options produced.
The RS package is worth an additional $2K.
http://www.nitrain.com/subs/camaro.htm
Here's a nice 1970 Chevelle
http://www.portone.com/ctchevel/dons.htm
Your Host
thanx!!