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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Ghosn announced Nissan's moving Leaf production to TN, which is good because it creates jobs here, but they also announced a big price drop.

    Could hurt Volt sales now that it's much cheaper.

    But ... it also acknowledges that Chevy beat Nissan in this fight, and Nissan had to re-tool for Round Two.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/14/nissan-leaf-becomes-least-expensive-5-seat-ev- -with-massive-price/

    So Chevy won Round One.

    But in Round Two, the Leaf now starts at $28,800. Add $850 freight, subtract the $7500 federal tax credit, then a $2000 MD state tax credit (adjust for your home state), and I can get a US-built Leaf for a list price of $20,150. Not bad.

    Volt is about 50% more, and only seats 4.

    Also, consider that a Prius and Civic Hybrid start at $24,200, with no credits.

    That $4 grand savings easily pays for the 220v charging station, even if you own 2 homes.

    Question is, can Nissan make a profit at that price?

    Who cares if they lose money? Let them subsidize American jobs at a loss. Ghosn can count the beans to figure out how to do it.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    Even haters gotta say, 'who else builds anything like it? ...and particularly with that content at that price?'

    I think it looks good and a nice evolution of the design.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,328
    The red one in the big picture is an 'in your face' one, but I'd still like a subdued color, non-flashy wheels, base model sometime in my life, to do the Route 66 thing and nice weekenders with the wife when the kids are out...if that ever happens.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    The red one in the big picture is an 'in your face' one, but I'd still like a subdued color, non-flashy wheels, base model sometime in my life, to do the Route 66 thing and nice weekenders with the wife when the kids are out...if that ever happens.

    I know you're frugal, but you should really splurge and get a more loaded one (or equivalent other desired car). You only live once. I used to be really frugal like that, too. Then I met my wife and she said "you only live once, you can't take it with you, you work hard, and you deserve to get something you REALLY like". Bless her heart. She helped give me balance. So I bought my last two cars new, and pretty loaded. But I still drive them a really long time, to give me the frugality balance. :blush:
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 11,082
    Your comparative youth is showing. Darts' reputation was that they were bulletproof--and this from a GM guy. Your comparative youth is showing. Darts' reputation was that they were bulletproof--and this from a GM guy.

    Fair enough, but then again some of you old timers have been saying that anything from today is way better than anything of the past. The argument is formed such that you can buy anything today and be happy with it's reliability (something I don't agree with by the way).

    So which is it, were old Dart's bulletproof or did old cars suck compared to the reliability of the best cars today?

    I still think early 90's Honda's and Toyota's are about as bulletproof as cars have ever been, of all-time. Of course, early 90's cars didn't have nearly as many features and gadgets as cars of today.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,328
    I'll tell my wife that tlong told me to 'go for it'!

    Actually, I'm more compelled to 'splurge' on an old car, although I'm without one right now. I'd love another Studebaker, but on the other hand, getting someone to work on it has become more of an issue in this suburbia I live in now. All the shops seem to be 'git 'er in, git 'er out'. In my hometown, about 90 mins. from here, there actually seem to be more shops than around here, per capita anyway, and I could see them being more willing to work on one--small town and all that--but I'm merely guessing of course.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,328
    edited January 2013
    I know cars last longer today--that is beyond doubt--but I was waaaayyyyy more excited to shop and buy a new car as late as probably thirty years ago than I am now. Resale values were higher (for domestics, anyway), and I could afford to trade every three years, like people did for a long time. Many models and many colors made it fun to go through the brochure and 'pick and choose'. I know those times are gone forever, but it was absolutely magical (to sound goofy about it).

    A huge part of my childhood that is fondly remembered was 'new car introduction night' in the fall, when the new models came out. Something was always restyled, and the cars were hidden until introduction night. It was great fun. Complete restylings generally happened every third year into the late '60's. Ah....that was fun. In our small town, it was also a social thing as you'd see everybody you knew checking out the new cars. Even if somebody bought a new car that summer, they still went down to check the new models out on introduction night, enjoy a donut and glass of cider and pick up all the brochures.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 11,082
    Probably the worst think about the Caliber for me other than the company it came from was that it seemed you could fit a finger or 2 in the gap between the hood and the quarter-panel.

    Didn't CR give it a 30-something score?
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    So which is it, were old Dart's bulletproof or did old cars suck compared to the reliability of the best cars today?

    I would say the answer is "yes".

    Like any generation of cars, some were better and more reliable than others. In the case of the original Dart, a loaded model usually was one with a heater and AM radio, maybe power steering and automatic transmission. Of course there were a few HiPerformance models, but they didn't count for much of the entire production. These cars were as reliable a car as one could buy back in the day, but that was then, when it was rare for any car to break 100K without some significant service on the engine or transmission, wheel bearings, brakes, etc.

    When I purchase a car today, I have every reason to expect it to go 100K miles (with far more options and conveniences) without any significant problems, other than wear and tear item like brake pads...
  • greg128greg128 Posts: 422
    Bad news for 90% of the posters on this forum, but good news for the taxpayers.
    The value of US Government stock holdings in GM rose by $2.5 billion over the last month.

    I think the Corvette is now overstyled. I like the outgoing model much better. It looks like GM "Sonatized" it.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    Bad news for 90% of the posters on this forum, but good news for the taxpayers.
    The value of US Government stock holdings in GM rose by $2.5 billion over the last month.


    That's less bad news for us - we are taxpayers, too. This means we lose a few billion less than we thought. :surprise:

    I think the Corvette is now overstyled. I like the outgoing model much better. It looks like GM "Sonatized" it.

    I'm glad they are taking some chances. Certainly much better looking to my eyes than the Camaro.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,397
    edited January 2013
    2.5BN - could fund some of our foreign aid parasites/policy dictators for more than half a year with that - but nobody will castigate it :sick:

    The new Vette is good - it will attract younger eyes. For the past generation at least, Corvette has sold to older men who wanted one when younger, and can finally afford it. That's probably a wise tradition to continue, as the "free trade" economy probably has less younger men able to buy one than ever.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,790
    >This means we lose a few billion less than we thought.

    Gotta remember the $1,400,000,000 for Nissan, a very healthy company operating here, to move it's battery production for 300 workers to Smyrna/Laverge TN area.

    Is that okay?

    I think the gov should put more support behind our own US company just as other foreign governments have done to support their companies in their Motherlands (and in trade by undervaluing currencies).

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Dart in title. Is that a GM brand?
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    The new Vette is good - it will attract younger eyes. For the past generation at least, Corvette has sold to older men who wanted one when younger, and can finally afford it. That's probably a wise tradition to continue, as the "free trade" economy probably has less younger men able to buy one than ever.

    We want to see you in one, fintail!
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    Gotta remember the $1,400,000,000 for Nissan, a very healthy company operating here, to move it's battery production for 300 workers to Smyrna/Laverge TN area.

    Is that okay?


    I'm going to take your word on that number as I'm not verifying it.

    In general, I'm doubtful of government funding most things. However, I'm much more in favor of funding new technologies than failing old technologies.

    So on that scale, it's "more" ok.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,790
    http://www.westernjournalism.com/us-gives-1-4-billion-loan-to-nissan-for-electri- c-cars/

    A company with revenue of ($118.95 billion US) worldwide, should be able to support their own leaf battery plant. They only sold 9,000 last year.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,397
    I'll say so far, I like this more than those in the past few decades - if anything, because the interior looks nice (as it is marginal to terrible in older models). It is styled heavily, but that's the trend today. It's a good move, if the model is to stay alive.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    edited January 2013
    A huge part of my childhood that is fondly remembered was 'new car introduction night' in the fall, when the new models came out. Something was always restyled, and the cars were hidden until introduction night. It was great fun. Complete restylings generally happened every third year into the late '60's. Ah....that was fun.

    Ah.....Yes. The big con by American manufacturers. GM, Ford and Chrysler. Big changes in the sheet metal every few years, two years, one year with not much improvement going on with suspension, brakes, engines, transmissions, safety, etc. Chumps would trade in frequently to keep up with the latest trends, styles.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Very true, and I know some old people who don't think they're old enough for an old man's car.

    "Old" is relative. Many people that have/had teen agers think that "old" is anyone over 30.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,328
    edited January 2013
    Ah.....Yes. The big con by American manufacturers. GM, Ford and Chrysler. Big changes in the sheet metal every few years, two years, one year with not much improvement going on with suspension, brakes, engines, transmissions, safety, etc. Chumps would trade in frequently to keep up with the latest trends, styles.

    If you weren't there, you can't be expected to 'get it'. Those chumps probably included your parents or grandparents.

    In the '60's, horsepower grew, safety features were added yearly, things like disc brakes were added, automatics went from two to three speeds, new models and lines were introduced...not unlike now, except that it didn't take five years or more for something to change. Absolutely more exciting than today's auto marketing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    To lower prices and steal Volt sales, too.

    At least it's not a grant.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    A company with revenue of ($118.95 billion US) worldwide, should be able to support their own leaf battery plant. They only sold 9,000 last year.

    GM's revenue was a lot higher than that when they got bailed out. They should also have been able to support their own operations.

    The difference is that one company is working to develop new manufacturing capabilities in US locations, and the other was failing in a competitive marketplace and the US government saw fit to reward a failing enterprise with loans. I don't guess that's an important difference to you, but it is to me.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    If you weren't there, you can't be expected to 'get it'. Those chumps probably included your parents or grandparents.

    History shows that the European car makers in the 50s and 60's were the innovators in advancing technology in cars. Disc brakes, sophisticated suspensions, radial tires to name a few. American mfrs such as GM were the laggards in introducing these particulars. American mfrs still use archaic designs in suspensions in some of their so-called performance cars.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,328
    edited January 2013
    The market, and gas prices, dictated things like that then. At 35 cents a gallon--which was never the case in Europe from what I understand--Americans wanted quiet, ride, size, and our roads could handle those things, unlike other countries. Again, if you weren't there, you can't 'get' how exciting a time it was.

    In the '60's, disc brakes, three-speed autos, greater horsepower, collapsible steering columns, side door beams, all became commonly available. The European makers never had even a portion of the model and bodystyle choices offered to the American car buyer at that time.

    In 1965, over one million Chevrolet Impalas were sold. Over one million--of one model. I'm not talking Biscaynes and Bel Airs too (those were different trim levels of the same car)--we're talking over one million Impalas.

    Somebody had the pulse on what the market wanted then.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 399
    And there was little competition, really just the big three, imports were a small s edition of the market. Now there is lots of competition so I doubt you will every see a car sell like that againa, even if it does hit all the wants of the consumer. I missed that time, but have seen other reports about what a big event the new models coming every year was. The Europeans never did change styling as often as the American Manufacturers either and I was attached to them, but with them it was new styling every five + years, some even longer an at.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    I dunno about Omni. My Mom had a 1987 Omni and that homely little car really "could do it all" like the ads read. That car would easily traverse snow and ice covered streets when weather conditions left 4x4s stranded on the side of the road. The car was cheap to buy, easy to repair, and easy to service.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    Juice - did you read the article?

    The base model is a new trim - the Leaf S. Last year's base (SV) is now a mid line model and the price drop is only $3400. Much of the price drop is due to Nissan moving production of both the vehicle and EV packs from Japan to the US. The S model will be a pretty bare bones vehicle I'll bet. It's highly unlikely that Nissan will be losing money at the lower price point.

    The Volt and Leaf also use different technologies which I know you are aware of. Add an IC engine and the technology to integrate it to the Leaf and it's price would be much closer to the Volt.

    You're picking up the spin moves from your wife! :)
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    Maybe that's the reason I would choose a Mercedes-Benz not only over any other German car, but among all foreign cars in general. Still like that E-Class.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    I still see plenty of those old Darts still on the road. There's a guy a few blocks over who has a dark green one that still appears to be in pretty nice condition. My neighbor in my old 'hood had a plain-jane medium blue 1968 Dart. He passed away and his relatives were showing the car to sell to a bunch of strangers when I would've obviously bought this car for a reasonable price.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,568
    The Dart name was out of circulation for so long that an entire generation practically never saw one on the road. Those folks more likely translated compact Mopar with Neon and Omni, which weren't anywhere near the dart in reliability or durability.

    Around here, I'd say in the past 10-12 years, they pretty much got taken off the road, but before that they were a common sight. I used to use white '68 Dodge Dart 270 hardtop to deliver pizzas. I never put a sign on the car, but needless to say, something like that is going to still stick out like a sore thumb, and people will remember it. Unfortunately, at that time, there were THREE other Dart hardtops in the same general area. All of them were white. And one was a '67, one was a '68, and one was a '69. They were all owned by teens/early 20 somethings. So needless to say, the store used to get calls complaining about me all the time. Sometimes, even on nights when I wasn't working and nowhere near that neighborhood!

    I'm sure those Darts are all run into the ground by now, though. In fact, I know one of them took on some battle damage when some other teen/20-something got into an argument, and backed his car into the front of one of them. And, wanna guess what that guy was driving? Another Dart! :surprise: This one was a '73 or '74 sedan though, sort of pimped out with neon lights underneath, and it was a light blue color I think. I only saw it at night, and sometimes that can play tricks on the color. I do remember the kid who owned it looked a bit like Weird Al. Oh, and there was also a midnight blue '67 Dart GT convertible in the neighborhood, driven by a MILF.

    Most of today's younger set, if they're into cars and go to shows, will probably get the most exposure to one particular Dart. The '68-69 GTS, hardtop or convertible, with either a 340 smallblock, 440 big-block, or 426 Hemi. There are probably more Hemi and big-block Darts running around now than there were, new, thanks to transplants and cloning. FWIW, they only built something like 50 or 75 Dart Hemis in 1968. They were about $4,000 new, and came majorly stripped down. They also came with racing slicks, rear wheel openings that were cut out extra wide, and a warning label that said not for street use.

    So today's younger set has probably forgotten all the grandpa Darts and Valiants that were sold in the 70's. And, even if they know some aging relative who has once, they're probably fantasizing about how good it would look painted Hemi Orange or Gang Green, and with a big block stuffed under the hood. Alas, they're also probably fantasizing about putting dubs on it...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,328
    I'm with lemko on the Omni/Horizon. I far-preferred them as rental cars than K-cars. I remember them being fairly peppy and an excellent use of space. I do know a buddy of mine who worked as a Chrysler Zone District Service Manager then said the body dies were starting to wear out near the end, resulting in more air and water leaks in the later ones. He also said, incidentally, that AMC built Fifth Avenues better than Chrysler did!
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    That's right. The M-bodies were produced at the old Kenosha plant from about the mid-80s on to the end of production.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,568
    I do know a buddy of mine who worked as a Chrysler Zone District Service Manager then said the body dies were starting to wear out near the end, resulting in more air and water leaks in the later ones.

    I wonder if a similar thing happened to the Olds Delta 88 for 1985? My Consumer Guide auto issue tested one, and they tore it apart when it came to fit and finish, and paint, although I think they said interior quality was pretty good. They mentioned that they were really disappointed in it, and that while theirs may have just been a bad example, that it still shouldn't happen since Olds had been building the car for eight years.

    They also tested a Caprice, Parisienne, LeSabre, and Fleetwood Brougham, and none of those cars had the same issues. IIRC, the Caddy actually got high marks for fit and finish.

    One thing that could have also happened, is that the Delta 88 was a very popular car that year. With the RWD 98 going away, and news of the Delta going FWD for 1986, plus cheap gasoline and a recovering economy, demand was very high for the Delta 88. So maybe they had to rush the assembly lines to keep up with demand? And, maybe the body dies were just starting to wear?

    In comparison, I think the Caprice was actually down slightly compared to 1984. The Parisienne was up, but not a whole lot, and it wasn't a huge seller. And the LeSabre had a good year, for many of the same reasons the Delta 88 did (RWD Electra gone, and the LeSabre itself going FWD for 1986), but it wasn't a huge seller like the Delta was.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    We shopped used Omnis for my then girlfriend (now wife). I found surface rust on even 2 year old ones. They didn't hold up around here, though to be fair MD salts the roads big time.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yup, but that still brings the entry price point way, way down. $20,150 is an economy car price, some $4 grand less than a base hybrid Prius or Civic.

    The SV drops $3400 but also gains a rapid charger, so it's a much better deal now.

    Limited range still limits its use, so it makes a good 2nd vehicle, but can't really replace a primary vehicle, IMHO.

    I still think with those prices the Volt's gonna feel some pain.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,568
    I hate responding to one of my own posts, but I guess I have Oldsmobiles on the brain. Last night, I saw a movie called "Bridesmaids", where a really nice looking early 80's Olds 98 got sacrificed. :sick:
    image

    However, to add embarrassment to injury, this is how it got hurt!
    image

    It rear-ended one of those RWD Corolla coupes that the main character was driving, who slammed on her brakes when a porcupine waddled out into the road.

    I was surprised that the 98 took that much damage. However, I have heard that for 1984, they cheapened the bumpers. And, the impact did buckle the rear of the Corolla...
    image

    Kinda sad to see such a nice car get creamed though. It looks like it was in pretty good shape.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,328
    I agree, those Ninety-Eights were nice cars. I guess one had to be sacrificed for the good of those watching years later (inside joke; andre gets it ;))
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    http://youtu.be/9Rsa_9lkbbY

    Atlas concept. Looks like they kinda rushed it to market to rob headlines from GM.

    I like the step and the built-in ramps.

    The styling is totally overdone, inside and out.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    My Mom had a 1987 Omni and that homely little car really "could do it all" like the ads read. That car would easily traverse snow and ice covered streets when weather conditions left 4x4s stranded on the side of the road.

    Chrysler did a good thing by copying an excellent auto design from Britain and the Europeans that went back to the 1960's. FWD, small efficient 4-cyl engine, compact design. Gas crises finally woke up American manufacturers to make better small cars that the Europeans had already mastered rather than failures such as Chevy Corvair, Vega, Ford Maverick and Pinto.

    Omni probably copied the VW design of the mid 1970's - Rabbit and Scirroco.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    The styling is totally overdone, inside and out.

    That last is pretty normal for a concept car.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/15/2014-cadillac-elr-detroit-2013/

    They're saying it looks even better in person.

    Very curious to see how much more than the Volt this costs.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/15/bob-lutz-approved-via-x-truck-offers-800-hp- -100-mpge/#continued

    But she's got a great personality...

    He uses a Silverado as the basis for this.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I was surprised that the 98 took that much damage. However, I have heard that for 1984, they cheapened the bumpers. And, the impact did buckle the rear of the Corolla...

    Actually, the problem was that the early 80s GM cars had fiberglass front pieces - so the grille and bumper surrounds would simply shatter on impact. The bumper has barely any damage. It's everything that is supporting it that's crap and collapsed.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,328
    The Europeans may have 'mastered' such cars as the Omni/Horizon beforehand, but the first Rabbits here were nothing to write home about quality-wise, that is for certain. Neither were the first Omnis/Horizons. In fact, I believe a certain version of the Omni/Horizon, early on, used a VW engine. Andre will probably know for sure.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I've read that they were related to the Rabbit, but I don't know the whole story.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,568
    Initially, the Omni/Horizon used a slightly enlarged VW SOHC engine...a 104.7 CID unit which I think translates to 1.7L? Starting in 1981, they made the 2.2 (135 CID) optional.

    For 1984, the 104.7 gave way to a 97.3 CID (1.6?) that I think may have been sourced from Peugeot. It was a real dog with 64 hp, and by this time I think most of them came with the 2.2, which had a more respectable (at the time) 96 hp. it was dropped after 1986, and for '87-90, the 2.2 was standard.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    Looks like they kinda rushed it to market to rob headlines from GM.

    What makes you say that?

    The styling is totally overdone, inside and out.

    Never saw a concept that wasn't.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    If you look beyond the tacked-on stuff, the basic truck behind it all looks the same as the current one.

    GM did the opposite, they upgraded the basic truck, but didn't really put any frills on it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    This is pretty trick:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/15/c7-corvette-reconfigurable-gauge-cluster-vide- o/

    Lexus LF-A did this first, but keep in mind this is at a fraction of the price.

    Pretty darn cool.

    Seat frames are magnesium, even on the base seats.
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