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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    What has Chrysler done since 2000 or even 1994/5 to win my business as a customer, regain trust, or otherwise show they have changed and improved?

    What are the signs that say the odds have changed?

    What are the positive indicators that show they may have improved since 1995?

    They've successfully gone bankrupt, that's certainly not a positive indicator.

    They've successfully received a second bailout, I suppose a few CEO's and executives deserve huge bonuses and golden parachutes for finagling that arrangement, but how does that make a customer more confident?

    The bogus lifetime warranty on the power train was short lived, and riddled with exclusions and fine print anyway.

    FIAT's reputation is no better.

    What have they done to win back any trust?

    They still rank at the bottom of CR's rankings.

    I see no reason to predict otherwise yet.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    But at the same time, if your kid falls behind in part due to the others cheating (and many of his own bad decisions, of course), and ends up the lowest ranked of his peers, then passed up for advancement or scholarship, how does that play out?

    That pans out that the companies that pass him up are not as sustainable in the long run. Do you really think GM is superior but is just doing badly because others are cheating? I don't think so.

    We can either assess equalizing and even punitive measures against those who cheat and wish to have access to our markets, or we can cheat to even things up a little. No other way about it.

    I'd go with number 1, not number 2. Unfortunately everybody seems to think #1 is the cats meow. How is that doing for our competitiveness?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Please don't make me itemize the list of factually incorrect things I've seen on this board again.

    The posts that are "incorrect" have nothing to do with GM's reality.

    Start by itemizing everything GM did to go bankrupt. Then, itemize everything since bankruptcy they continue to do incorrectly. Feel free to add the things they learned to stop doing to prevent repeating bankruptcy.

    I'm waiting eagerly....

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Nice excuses. Kia/Hyundai are making GM look third-rate! I guess the Korean Government are all "Car Guys". :P

    Regards,
    OW
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I don't recall any clear profitability being shown when the old organization was intact

    Hyundai as a whole was loosing money, but that doesn't mean every division within Hyundai was unprofitable. I've read more than one article stating Hyundai Auto was relatively healthy at the time, same with Hyundai Heavy Industries.

    given the mediocre to horrible Hyundai product of the era,

    The D3 made money off lousy product for decades;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep, some sort of carbon tax.

    US manufacturing plants are zero landfill and cleaner than ever.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    edited February 2013
    I am positively stupefied at how much energy is exerted on a GM board by people who hate GM.

    How does one determine that a poster "hates" GM? Would simply posting parts of reviews by Edmunds, or CR, or Car and Driver, etc about their "findings" and when the findings are not complimentary after they have tested a GM vehicle constitute posting "hate"?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    They are more sustainable as long as they are coddled - which doesn't seem to be fading anytime soon. Even the leading makers receive gifts. Reminds me of college kids who are dependent on a parental allowance, if not a free ride, but pretend to be on their own.

    #1 helped the competition compete, we're supposed to blindly embrace theory as we have with trickle down and free trade garbage, why not here?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I don't recall those articles. I suppose creative accounting could make it work - move the R&D under another umbrella, and reap pure profit from manufactured goods sales. Hard to believe H was truly that healthy given their 1990s product line.

    D3 didn't have real competition during most of their lousy days.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    They know how to spoil their children, anyway. And when you received decades of developmental aid and still receive military protection, it comes that much easier.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I wonder how much prices would rise if environmental standards were equal.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    The funny thing is I did not like the Dart, but come on...

    What has Chrysler done since 95?

    Pentastar V6. We could stop right there, really.

    Much, much better interior on the 300. Half of the rest of the lineup is about half way there but still much improved.

    Have you sat in a Jeep Grand Cherokee? Wrangler will have a Pentastar V6 and an 8 speed auto soon, that's not progress?

    Check out a Ram pickup, too, coil springs and ram box setting it apart.

    They're not at the head of the class, but they are no longer the burn out who skips class and doesn't graduate, either.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Hard to believe H was truly that healthy given their 1990s product line.

    Healthy might be to strong of a word, but from what I've read, Hyundai Auto wasn't circling the drain either.

    Who knows if the books were cooked or if assets and expenses being pushed around.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Probably double
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    edited February 2013
    D3 didn't have real competition during most of their lousy days.

    Can anyone imagine the garbage we would be forced to buy and drive today if not for the Japanese and their impact that forced American branded manufacturers such as GM to make changes to catch up or else. What if there were no Japan. No Honda. No Toyota. Look at the offerings by GM in the 80's. Starting in the early, mid 80's, the Japanese clearly took over the lead in quality, reliability, innovation that forced the American brands such as GM to take notice. It took a very long time for GM to respond to the Japanese superiority.

    And, was not only in cars. In TVs, it was the Japanese with Sony Trinitron and Panasonic that showed how to manufacture excellent quality and reliability in TVs. American brands could not compete. Did not try. They are gone or exist only as an old brand name now used by some companies not based in the U.S.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Uplander does bring up an interesting point. This discussion is very active and there's a lot of venom hate loathing disgust distaste for GM expressed.

    You don't see that in the Ford News discussion.

    Okay, I can understand that - Ford didn't take a bail-out. GM getting bailed out made my next door neighbor so mad he purchased a Flex to replace his Bravada.

    But - why then does Chrysler get a free ride? Is it simply because it got sold to the Italians or because Dan Quayle was a part owner for a while or because people thought it was still run by the Mercedes crowd?

    Even when I skim the SUV discussions here, there's more anger directed at GM from owners with problems than I see with owners of Explorers or Durangos.

    It's all a bit curious to me.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Pentastar V6. We could stop right there, really.

    While that shows progress in the numbers and stats department (HP and MPG), it does nothing to show progress in the reliability and dependability department.

    The Neon had "class-leading" horsepower for small cars in its day. Means little if it's in the shop all the time.

    Same thing with 8-speed auto. Time will tell, and I'm talking 7 years before we can decide Chrysler's changed for the better.

    So they've improved interiors and "product" quality, but what about the durability and longevity of their "planned obsolescence" parts?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Put me in the line of "Chrysler doesn't get a free pass," please!

    I suppose people forgive Chrysler faster and quicker because they repaid their debts faster and quicker and more fully than GM ever will.

    They also probably forgive them quicker because they've been bailed out before, and it's becoming routine.

    Maybe they are forgiven because they sunk so low (not just in reliability) but also, during the 2000's, in product competitiveness. They had no where to go but up, and have showed more improvement perhaps.

    Maybe there aren't enough Chrysler owners out there to sustain a Chrysler discussion or forum?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ajvdhajvdh Member Posts: 223
    I recently rented a car and when I found out that was all they had was a Chrysler 200, I'll admit to some trepidation.

    I was pleasantly surprised: Yeah, the driving dynamics weren't anything to write home about, but they were acceptable for a transportation appliance. At least on par with the Altima I had a week later.

    The interior materials were quite nice, seats were comfortable, and it was quiet. According to Chrysler's site, it was the cheapest possible trim, with a sticker of under $19k. I'm not gonna run out and buy one, but I can see if one wanted a car in this size category for not a lot of scratch, it'd be a reasonable choice.

    The Impala we wound up with last summer, OTOH... Thank goodness they're putting a bullet in that turkey. A/C works well, and it's got decent trunk space. That's all the positives. The Kia minivan I'd rented before had better ride and handling. Hell, my 2001 F350 doesn't handle much worse (but I'll admit the Impala rides better). Uncomfortable seats, terrible visibility for the rear seat passengers, and trim that screamed "lowest bidder."

    At least it wasn't a Galant. I still shudder when I think about that thing.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,055
    Another example of what I'm talking about is, when CR's Malibu actually scored higher than other much-talked about cars here, no one--and I mean no one--said a single thing about that, until I brought it up.

    It's really exhausting.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I won't even start the hate, disgust, loathing my bro' has for Chrysler. He was a Dodge guy as well as Chevy guy (could take the cars apart and back together back in the day). But since he just experienced an utter lemon of a JGC and their moronic "floating lifter" design failure fist-hand, he just traded the dog-of-a Jeep in for....wait for it...... a Kia Sorrento!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    But this is a GM forum....GO KIA! :P

    Regards,
    OW
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I suppose people forgive Chrysler faster and quicker because they repaid their debts faster and quicker and more fully than GM ever will.

    Maybe there's more goodwill because they paid off their last bailout too.

    But I mean, c'mon. Chrysler is a two time loser. :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    What, you mean if you're too big to fail, you're too big to exist? Hmm, I seem to recall hearing that somewhere before...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited February 2013
    Another example of what I'm talking about is, when CR's Malibu actually scored higher than other much-talked about cars here, no one--and I mean no one--said a single thing about that, until I brought it up.

    It's really exhausting.


    That was then. This is now!

    Get ready to really get exhausted. Page 23 of CR's "Best and Worst cars for2013" rates a buch of cars including the Optima high on predicted reliability for family cars above the 2 Chevys and the Optima SX and standard are recommended! Both Chevies are NOT RECOMMENDED. :P

    Go Kia!

    Regards,
    OW
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    It's because most of us have already given up on Chrysler. Unlike GM, they're not worth trying to save. :)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Americans love underdogs so much, GM should take a page from Avis and talk about how they are trying harder.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Who knows if the books were cooked or if assets and expenses being pushed around.

    Thank goodness we in the USA have the much better accounting of the US government and the big banks. :surprise:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Same thing with 8-speed auto. Time will tell, and I'm talking 7 years before we can decide Chrysler's changed for the better.

    The ZF 8 speed Chrysler is using is good enough for Audi, Rolls, Mercedes, and BMW as they all use versions of this transmission.

    I think Chrysler has improved overall. Sure, there are a few dogs in the lineup, but they have several vehicles I'd consider buying.

    The Jeep Wrangler and Grand Cherokee are very nice and well well too. The minivans are competitive, my SIL has an 09 Grand Caravan for a company vehicle and she's put 120k miles on it w/o any problems. The Ram pickups are very nice too.

    Plus the 300, Charger, and Challenger are all cool cars. Okay, the Dart isn't doing so well and the 200 is kind of lame. I like the Durango too. I haven't driven one, but I have sat in them. The interior is very nice.

    I'd certainly be open to a Chrysler product as long as I like how it drives. I'll be checking out some new GM products too as soon as the '14 trucks and Suburban are on dealer lots.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Okay, I can understand that - Ford didn't take a bail-out. GM getting bailed out made my next door neighbor so mad he purchased a Flex to replace his Bravada.

    Here's a theory. GM was the biggest, so more people were affected. GM had the largest market share and has lost more share of the market than any other maker, so that means many, many more people have bailed on GM than any other company. So that drives the much greater degree of negativism.

    I know that my impressions of GM were very negative well before the bailout. I actually think they've improved quite a bit, just not to where they need to be.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Thank goodness we in the USA have the much better accounting of the US government and the big banks.

    LOL, that might be one of our major exports;)
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I know that my impressions of GM were very negative well before the bailout. I actually think they've improved quite a bit, just not to where they need to be.

    That pretty well describes my position on GM.

    Once the Impala is replaced, GM should be in a good competitive position with most of their products. They have a few I'd consider at least.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Sounds good.

    Wonder how the discussion would be going if Ford had not been able to get private financing and gone through a bailout too?

    (Not counting all the loans and grants they got for EVs and such stuff).
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Another example of what I'm talking about is, when CR's Malibu actually scored higher than other much-talked about cars here, no one--and I mean no one--said a single thing about that, until I brought it up.

    I know you don't like people leaving things out, but you conveniently left out any real response to what I said, choosing to divert to a new subject, instead. Repeating this kind of statement is exhausting to me!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Americans love underdogs so much, GM should take a page from Avis and talk about how they are trying harder.

    But are they? I bring the new Malibu as exhibit #1. :shades:
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited February 2013
    LOL, that might be one of our major exports;)

    You know the saying: In the U.S. we used to make things. Now wemake things up! (in reference to our "financial prowess" :surprise:
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Wonder how the discussion would be going if Ford had not been able to get private financing and gone through a bailout too?

    I suspect the venom would be fairly high. But not as high as GM, since Ford was smaller to begin with. Also, they did show *some* evidence of effort over the years (Quality is Job 1, etc.).
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited February 2013
    Also, they probably overprice them. Frankly, they should just give them away for free to former Neon owners as an apology.

    Actually, the low-end 2013 Dodge Dart is priced around $16,000. Someone at the hospital I work at bought a silver one, I want to find out who that person is so I can ask them about their new ride. Remember, the new Dodge Dart rides on the Alfa Romeo Giulietta platform, and in the compact category that is no slouch at all for riding and handling abilities.

    Now, having said that, I would not want to buy a new Dart because it can't even come close to touching my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. Mitsu's Lancer line-up, especially the GTS (now GT) line is hard to beat for value, fun, handling, looks and rockin' Rockford Fosgate stereos. :shades:
    T'was worth every penny I paid for it. I'm sticking with Mitsubshi. I was sitting in the store parking lot tonight idling and the engine barely makes a noise at all. Fine Japanese build quality there.

    image

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,055
    edited February 2013
    tlong, your original post said only "I don't have the numbers" (implying 'right here with me'), but then go on to say "I suspect Honda/Hyundai numbers are less than Chevrolet". Not...really...so. Did you correct yourself when the numbers were posted? No, you said, "Chevy is up there in the mainstream numbers as well"...no mention that Hyundai had the identical age and Honda was only one year younger. I had to point that out to you here. ;)

    I agree with everybody here that the Eco Malibu debuting first was a mistake, and the reduced rear-seat legroom is a bad thing. But still, when people post factual errors (not opinions, things posted as fact) here it doesn't boost their position. Same with leaving obvious, relevant things out of a discussion, on purpose.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    http://www.edmunds.com/auto-shows/chicago/2013/2014-chevrolet-cruze-clean-turbo-- diesel-starts-at-25695.html

    Looks to be interesting. Price seems a bit steep and I don't understand why GM isn't offering a manual trans. Maybe they don't have one that can handle the torque, but you'd think there is one laying around from for use in Europe. I think it's a mistake not to offer a manual.

    While I love diesels, I just don't know if this car makes much sense over a Cruze Eco. It will be a bit quicker I believe, but for $5k more and the fact diesel is running 20 to 30% higher than RUG around here anyway, the diesel likely won't have much of an economical advantage.

    Being nearly $2k more than a Jetta diesel could be a problem too. I wonder if the Cruze has more standard equipment.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >I know that my impressions of GM were very negative well before the bailout.

    Was that because of the Nader era where GM was criticized for being one of the military industrial complex companies that were so evil during the 70s? 80? GM had a GNP 9th in the world among countries IIRC. So they were hated just for being big.

    Another factor is that somewhere in that lineage it because socially acceptable to scapegoat GM. Sort of like the Cubs my departed father-in-law loved so much over everything else around him other than beer and his family--God bless his soul (not). But even on Edmunds it's apparent that some of the talk is just that it has always been acceptable to bash GM. I even heard it on the radio talk sponsored by an Acura dealer--they acted like Honda has special rear brake caliper setups and GM's were simple just like the fronts rather than required turn-in to reset for new pads. It's just okay to bash GM in other threads on Edmunds. But when a certain company's sludge, excuse me, gel, problems were repeatedly brought up in the forum for same, the sludge discussion was closed. Would that have been closed if it were GM sludge being talk about? Naaaah. We'd still have it 20 years later.

    What's surprising is that folks who actually are thinking about what is going on show the scapegoating behavior and attitudes toward GM, when they should be able to separate old/new, past/present. Some here do show that discriminatory ability in between just bashing while the present just flies over others.

    >my impressions of GM were very negative well before the bailout.

    The bailout has the problem of being a divisive political move to protect unions rather than a true bailout. That's in another forum here so I'll let that stand. A parallel appears to be the purpose behind the post office union treatment currently. GM's big problem is the cost of the old, high seniority UAW workers and top management that is perceived as old school rather than hip like Hyundai's or Honda's. Often the hatred of the UAW comes up in discussions of GM's past problems. And it still has to affect the ability to put money into the raw materials for the product--instead that goes to the higher cost of the union workers in the US.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    What do you drive, anything? I drive a Cobalt and my wife drives an '11 Malibu. It'd be interesting to see about recalls on what you drive, but I honestly don't remember you saying.

    I've got a 6 year old Subaru Impreza with a bit over 120k last I looked and my wife has a 5 year old Outback with about 9x,000 miles. Had one recall on mine for a PCV valve and the wifes had a recall for the same thing and something related to the suspension(I don't remember it was a few years ago...).

    I also have a 9 year old Honda S2000 which is my summer car and has about 21k miles but has never had any recalls nor unscheduled repairs. I do need to do a brake job in the spring, but it will be the first repair outside of "routine" scheduled maintainence... :shades:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    Was that because of the Nader era where GM was criticized for being one of the military industrial complex companies that were so evil during the 70s? 80? GM had a GNP 9th in the world among countries IIRC. So they were hated just for being big.

    For me, it was the simple fact that the type of cars I liked growing up, GM didn't make or what they did make, was lousy IMO.

    Then add the few GM products I've owned or have sampled as company cars have been lousy for a variety of reasons too. I've never owned or even sampled a GM car that I could write a good review about.

    That doesn't mean GM doesn't make anything I'd like, I just have sampled one yet. But I haven't driven a new GM product in a while, so I can't comment on the current crop of GM cars. Okay, I have briefly driven a new Equinox, but it was such a short trip, all I can say is I wasn't a fan of the buzzy 4 cylinder (but I'd likely say that about most 4 bangers).
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,055
    Brakes at 21K?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,055
    Both Chevies are NOT RECOMMENDED

    Please add that the reason they are not "recommended" (as opposed to "NOT RECOMMENDED" as you posted), was that the Malibu is a completely new car and there is no reliability record for it yet.

    Again, it tested above the Optima, Nissan, VW and others in the lowest-priced class, and BTW you also failed to mention (shocker) that even the Eco version of the Malibu rated ahead of the Sonata Hybrid.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    But when a certain company's sludge, excuse me, gel, problems were repeatedly brought up in the forum for same, the sludge discussion was closed.

    Ah, you're bringing back memories. :shades:

    The discussion was about sludge specifically though, not the whole company. There is a Toyota on the mend? discussion right here in Auto News where you can gripe about SUA and all the recalls.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I'm always wondering why this forum is GM specific when there is another one specifically for "fans"? I think that is a source of disappointment for alot of the GM "fans", there is hardly any action over there and yet this one, criticism and all, is the most popular... Not enough kool aid drinkers here ;)

    And IMHO, the Ford discussion forum is quiet because I think alot of those fans come here to discuss. I've been an Edmunds member for 8 years or so and for as long as I remember, this thread as de-railed numerous times away from the actual topic. Whether it be GM vs. Ford, Imports vs. GM, imports vs. Ford... Then there's pages of comparisons between cars from the 50's, 60's and 70's which I bet most posters weren't even alive for :D

    My recommendation is to just re-name this thread as "Domestic cars, new models and market share" or something. Just my .02
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    Oh, and regarding Chrysler, I think they have kind of slipped thru alot of the discussions because they kind of walk the fine line with Domestic car fans and Import car fans.

    As I see it, Domestic car fans (not all, but many) will use them as ammo for calling out us "idiot" "unAmerican" Import fans to "Buy Murican", yet being partially owned (fully owned by 2014 btw) by FIAT, they are not willing to admit to supporting a "Furrin" automaker.

    The Import fans remember the Chryslers "Bad years" and I think alot of them respect the efforts being made to re-group and re-build a once respectable automaker. Plus, Chrysler in General I think take alot more risks and really try to go against the grain with a product that doesn't follow the mainstream market. Look at their dedication to RWD cars like the 300, Charger and the late Magnum. What other automaker puts that kind of stuff out that isn't a 50 -60 thousand dollar Tuetonic masterpiece from Europe?

    Chrysler still has plenty of "venom" and so does Ford. We just don't fully realize it because the name of this thread is "GM news and MS".
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    Yes, 21k. It's not a daily driver, it's a car that gets driven... hard. I also need to replace the tires every 15k and change the rear diff fluid every year. :D

    What do you think the lifespan of brakes on a hard driven Corvette are? Or a Porsche?

    Plus, they are 9 years old. And who knows, all I have experienced is a bit of wiggle when I deccellerate on the highway, they might just need to be re-surfaced. :shades:
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,055
    Man, those Honda rotors sure don't last. ;)

    I'm just razzing you, you know that.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >those Honda rotors sure don't last.

    "Supplier's fault." That's the excuse over in certain other forums. :blush: :P ;)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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