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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,080
    edited September 2012
    If its the same setup as the one I went to, its not all that great. I mean, fun enough as long as you don't have to drive far. It was about a 4-hour roundtrip for me and I wouldn't necessarily do it again.

    The time on track with the various 911s was very restrictive. You weren't supposed to use the paddle shifters and you had to play follow-the-leader, so you could only go as fast as the guy in front of you, and the front of the pack was a Porsche employee.

    The autocross portion was better. All done with Boxsters and Caymans. Each car had an instructor and you took turns in each car going around 1 lap. My first instructor was quite firm about me being gentle. The others let me hang it out more.

    The final bit was that you could take a demo car out for a road test. That's where I drove and fell in love with the Panamera.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited September 2012
    "Cash strapped Europeans are finding that hybrids are too expensive, don’t drive as well as diesels, as well as failing to meet diesel economy achievements.

    European motorists, alarmed no less by rocketing pump prices, continue to head en-masse into the diesel market for salvation. That’s simply because all the available information tells them that on the real-world fuel-economy front diesels still run rings around latest petrol-electric hybrids, What’s more, not only are they more fuel economical that today’s petrol-electric hybrids, they also offer a more satisfying drive. Above all else, they remain markedly cheaper to buy,” Schmidt said."

    More Americans go for hybrids, but cost-conscious Europeans embrace diesels (Detroit News)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    Simple answer. Europeans are much better educated than Americans. What do we rank now 38th in the World? It is reflected in our choice of vehicles. Of which we have a very poor selection. Which shows the level of intelligence in our government. The EPA would rather we own a hybrid that pollutes some 3rd World country during manufacture.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited September 2012
    Education stats are all over the map; good luck picking what to rank, much less where we rank.

    Europeans buy diesels because their brain cells have suffered so much damage from inhaling the exhaust fumes for so many years. :P (Reuters)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    Too Funny, I knew what your response would be. There is a lot of evidence that the creation of batteries and electric motors is too polluting to be done in the USA. I say if it cannot be manufactured here, it should not be allowed here.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Borm (from Zuyd University) and his team put 10 volunteers in a room filled with exhaust from a diesel engine for one hour and monitored their brain waves with an electroencephalograph (EEG).....After about 30 minutes, brain wave patterns displayed a stress response, suggesting changes in information processing in the brain cortex.

    No firggin kidding? It took 10 brain-less volunteers to figure that one out? Put them in a room filled with exhaust from a gasoline engine for an hour and they'd all be dead of carbon monoxide poisoning. Duh.

    Glad I didn't see Zuyd University on my 17 year old's preferred college list.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I would say 10 minutes in a closed garage with a gas vehicle running would cause permanent brain damage. Which explains Americas love affair with gas engines. I love the smell of diesel in the morning. :shades:
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited September 2012
    Too Funny, I knew what your response would be

    I probably posted that link back in '08 when the study first came out. :D

    You'd love the Scheid Diesel Extravaganza in Terre Haute.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I risked my neck too many times before the age of 30. Racing does not interest me in the least. Not to watch or participate. Waste of money and fuel. That is why I don't really need a V6 diesel engine in an SUV. The 4 cylinder would be plenty for my needs. Squeezing 40 MPG out of a ML250 Bluetec would be more fun than racing from stoplight to stoplight. They are rated at 50.4 MPG highway in the UK.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited September 2012
    We had a similar discussion last week or so ago. Except it involved whether a Prius could be fun and engaging, and squeezing 50 mpg out of a car came up in that thread too as one example.

    There is hypermiling "racing" btw.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    edited September 2012
    The four cylinder ML diesel beat out 18 hybrids & EVs as 2012 Car of the Year. I don't think there is a 5000 lb vehicle sold in the USA that will get even close to 37 MPG US. And tow a 7000 lb trailer. Cross rivers and climb rocky hillsides. My ideal vehicle.

    http://www.wcoty.com/web/eligible_vehicles.asp?year=2012&cat=4
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    Indeed people dead from (gasser) carbon monoxide poisoning would show NO stress let alone readings. I guess that was the variable that cinched it for the petrol lovers !? ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    It has been more than apparent, also for a long time, the US markets have been very very successful in keeping OUT 'higher mpg cars," aka 40 to 70 mpg posters. Since this is a diesel thread, I have been easily getting 50 mpg for 11 MY's and for over 178,000 miles (in a diesel). All I do it keep it under 90 mph !

    In fact, the so called "exact same" (European) model was "detuned" and at GREAT extra cost to get MINUS - 2 mpg LESS for the US markets !! I had read in passing one of the stated reasons: US regulators were scared of the much higher HP ratings of the European models (100 hp vs 90 hp) :sick: :lemon: As anyone knows, US cars with INXS of 400 hp cause absolutely NO issues. :shades: :blush: ;)

    Indeed the very next year (2004), it was against the law to sell it (NEW2004 MY ) in the BIGGEST market in the US (CA).

    It does make one wonder IF and when the new 72 mpg Golf TDI will hit the US markets IF it ever will.

    Also the 2012 Passat TDI's (6 speed manual) ability to post 84 mpg for a 43 EPA H rated vehicle has pretty much garnered a YAWN by the overall press. 84 mpg by VW Passat TDI

    On the other hand the folks that manage the propoganda for the electric cars imply that the plug ins are FREE of electrical costs !!!!! PREPOSTEROUS !!! In wacked out CA electrical costs (home) beyond base line easily climb and are normally @ .29 cents + per KWH. To add insult to injury, they dont list how many KWH's it takes to go X miles or a per mile driven: fuel equivalent costs.

    In the Passat TDI's case @ (corner store prices) $4.35 per gal /84 mpg = .0518 cents per mile driven fuel. On the electrical cars side, I think it would take a Senator Darryl Issa senate probe and a couple of years to get what that is for say a Volt.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    The Taylors have set so many records in so many vehicles. I wonder what their favorite vehicle is so far? I would like to see them do some mileage attempts in the diesel SUVs sold here in the USA. I have no doubt they could break 40 MPG in the ML350 Bluetec and Touareg/Cayenne TDIs.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    Indeed.

    Outside of contractual arrangements, I would wonder why Toyota and GM, etc., had not snagged them to do mpg runs with say the more recognizable "sanctioned" models: i.e., Prius and Volt.

    I probably should do a 5 under speed limit (60 mph) tank full in the VW Touareg. (The Taylor's stated partial protocol) At that projected rate of consumption, ( 40 mpg @ 26.4 gal tank-official) that would post 1,040 miles with .4 gal left over. For me, it is more about safety issues: 1. getting rear ended 2. road rage 3. falling asleep. 4 and that grating question: ARE WE THERE YET??? ;) :sick: 5. my personal one: BORING.

    Early on, I was able to post a 36 mpg (bit higher actually) tank during (component longevity) break in, sub 65 mph. The caveat here was the engine and drive train was subject to MANY 75% to 80% of redline= 5,000 rpm) jaunts, acceleration and deceleration. I call it more "herky jerky" The 8 speed transmission was shifted down/up in some cases to keep speeds low. 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and when appropriate 7th 8th.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited September 2012
    Diesel is well established in the US so I don't buy the theory that the regulators are keeping them out. They just need to meet emission standards.

    Just like gassers do.

    Marketing explains the poor sales as good as any theory.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    I think it really depends on what one means about "well established". 95% gassers and 5% diesels. tell far different tales. It is hard to market something that is not allowed into the markets.

    It sort of gets back to the whole suv hysteria and harkens back to a long since popular but closed thread about SUV's. The enviro cons saw this as the end of the western world as we know it (to keep the ills under 25 points or less) , even as if they are joined at the "political" hip to the industries and unions that produce these things. Despite 30+ years of "unmitigated" SUV growth and "utter destructions" at any to all of those feared levels, they are 12% of the vehicle fleet and NHTSA posts some of the best safety numbers since they have been recording the statistics. Indeed the air is cleaner. "Coincidently", (not actually a coincidence)the numbers are far better than even when SUV's were 1 to 2% of the passenger vehicle populations.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Look beyond passenger cars to the rest of the trucking and transportation industry. Diesel rules the roost there. And all those rigs are getting cleaner every year too.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    The biggest step for diesel emissions was ULSD. It did for diesel what removing the lead did for gasoline. I can tell the difference in my tractor from higher sulfur red dye diesel to ULSD. I always put conditioner with cetane booster to protect my tractor. When I used red dye diesel it put out lots of black smoke on start-up. Not so with ULSD.

    When 5% of the cars and SUVs are diesel, I would say the country is making progress. Until that point it looks like a government married to the oil companies. They have too much RUG to unload. Just like 100+ years ago, gasoline is a worthless refinery byproduct we are stuck using.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    Well, I can't remember when I last bought a PeterBilt model 379, new or used. ;) Indeed the almost totally different and "looser" and in some industries totally non existent emissions requlations for the trucking and transportation industries, etc. , just drives home ultra vividly, how the regulators keep/kept OUT diesel passenger cars. That point that you bring up really strengths the point I am making. True to form CA state probably made it economically untenable (80's) to continue manufacturing operations where it was founded in Newark, CA (a couple of cities away from here) But as Gagrice posts ULSD is both in use and required for a lot of those industry participants. There still are industreis that burn massive amounts of so called bunker oil.

    Now I agree with Gagrice that a drift toward 5% diesel passenger cars is progress, albeit snails pace. But when I got my first TDI in 03, the diesel passenger population, the best I could figure was @ 2/3% which was recovering at that time from a loss FROM 5%. Of the 2/3% fully 75% were so called diesel "light trucks". Now @ 5% I have read in passing "light trucks" are 50% of the population.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    Another undeniable issue is RUG/PUG (30 ppm standard, 30 to 90 ppm sulfur @ the pumps) is also 2 to 18 times DIRTIER than ULSD (15 ppm but nominally delivered to the pumps @ 5 to 10 ppm sulfur.). I have mentioned this a few times, (yes I am fine with...but who really cares?) but truly it is almost totally glossed over in the diesel vs gasoline discussion. Upshot: there are not short terms efforts/goals to get RUG/PUG down to the same ppm sulfur standards as ULSD for passenger cars.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Doesn't make much sense but apparently the catalytic converter and other emissions equipment can deal with the sulfur. But it's supposedly a lot easier to get rid of the sulfur from gasoline and I think most of the gas in the EU is sulfur free.

    In 2008, "The International Fuel Quality Center (IFQC) has ranked the top 100
    countries based on sulfur limits in gasoline; Germany was found to be at the
    top of the ranking with the lowest sulfur limits. Following in second and
    third were Japan and Sweden, respectively. If California was a country, it
    would have ranked along with these top achievers."

    Reuters
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    I think you are finally acknowledging what I have been saying all along: a lot makes little to no sense, there is much hypocrisy, etc. . Gas is actually dirtier than ULSD, which takes the hit (scape goat) for gas being "dirtier". One can even see it in the disengenuous differences between "sulfur free" RUG/PUG @ 10 ppm, while ULSD is actually delivered @ 5 to 10 ppm yet is called ultra low when it has the same or lower ppm sulfur. Again RUG to PUG with the new sulfur free standards is 2 times as dirty as ULSD :sick: :lemon:

    Now the availability of 10 ppm RUG/PUG in Germany is not going to do US markets vehicles much good now is it?

    It does beg the question will the use of 30 to 90 ppm RUG to PUG (US) in German cars specified for 10 ppm, do they suffer the same clogging and failure problems as diesels that ran LSD (500 ppm- 140 ppm CA) when they were specified for ULSD @ 5 to 10 ppm- nominally delivered at the pumps ? Again the 2003 TDI was specified for ULSD 11 MY ago and even earlier.

    Again the regulators have not let oems do an engine that is capable of running bio diesel. 100% bio diesel literally has ZERO ppm sulfur. Yes that is right NADA! However for mathematically logical discussion, bio diesel (suspension of disbelief) is @ 1 ppm sulfur. ;)
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    ...appear to be determined by the spin of a roulette wheel. Here's what I found yesterday at two Shell stations about 15 miles apart:

    DC (high priced urban station): Regular $4.15, Mid $4.37, Premium $4.55, Diesel $4.17

    Maryland (lower priced suburban station): Regular: $3.79, Mid $3.99, Premium $4.19, Diesel $4.15

    Unfortunately, I passed on a chance to fill up in West Virginia at $3.95/gallon, figuring the Maryland price would have been closer to their regular price. I think I need to invent an Apple app that updates diesel prices and shoots them directly to the BMW nav system. But given that I haven't figured out how to use Facebook, don't hold your breath. If someone else wants to do the tech, I'll bankroll the app and we can split the profits. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    While I think I hear what you are saying: .02 cent differences in diesel prices are far out shadowed by RUG price differences of .16 cents and PUG price differences of .36 cents? It would appear that to travel X more miles (out of ones way) does not make sense for a .02 difference in ULSD prices?
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I agree, not worth driving around to save a few pennies. These were stations that were on our way to and from a Porsche driving event in West Virginia. The good news with the 400-500+ mile BMW range is that we can usually wait to fill up when we are out of the immediate DC area as part of our regular weekend activities.

    But the relationship between diesel prices and regular/premium gas prices varies considerably at the stations in our region. Some price diesel at or near premium, some barely above regular. I would have assumed they (all Shell or BP stations) would be paying about the same wholesale prices for diesel.

    BTW, when we were at the Porsche driving event, one of the reps had a Cayenne Diesel he drove up from Atlanta. With a 26.4 gallon tank and MPG ratings of 20/29, that's an EPA highway range of 765 miles. He said the trip computer on the drive from Atlanta actually showed 32.6 mpg. Pretty impressive.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2012
    Where'd you find diesel in DC for $4.17? I'm in NW DC, and here's what I found via GasBuddy:

    cheapest RUG $3.79, 18th and S, 0.6 miles away.

    cheapest diesel $3.99, W. Virginia Ave, 2.1 miles away.

    So 20 cents cheaper and 1/3rd the distance, with city traffic that's farther than it seems.

    Americans buy more hybrids for several reasons:

    * sprawl and crawl - more people drive in cities
    * diesel often costs more, offsetting about half your savings
    * CARB blocks all but the cleanest options entirely
    * EPA tests do not favor diesels, real world mileage is often better
    * no selection, VW or nothing basically under $30k
    * VW is considered a reliability risk (even with TDI being reliable)
    * dirty/unreliable reputation still lingers, not deserved, but it does

    Give a policy maker a TDI to drive daily for a week and guess what? That impression won't even change much. Why? Because to get to Congress you drive in gridlock, basically.

    He or she will wonder why there isn't idle start/stop, then get mad when they can't find a diesel station and when they finally do it costs 20 cents more per gallon. Not made in the USA, whaaaaa? ...

    They won't see the benefit that the ideal target buyer (Gary for instance) will. Out in the country, needs the extra torque, open roads, less traffic, range desired.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited September 2012
    I think it was probably the oil lobby, and since the emissions controls handle the sulfur okay in gassers, the EU standard wasn't pressed. Next go round they can argue about it again.

    Don't go "clean diesel" on me. Sulfur is just one component to watch for, and particulates are still worse for diesel rigs last I checked.

    Habitat1, I bet there's an app for that already. Maybe Gasbuddy.com?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    The only difference is that would be an incorrect assumption. So for example, CA charges 10.5 cents more taxation for a gal of diesel. (over RUG/PUG).

    Every time there is a change to the price of fuel, it is like clockwork some article in the propaganda mill tries its hand at explanation. Most to all articles are pure BS. I think they just give the issue to a cub rookie journalist to let em cut their teeth and to check to make sure they are ultra liberal. I just see it as fictional entertainment. Let's see 95% of motor cars are now electric plug in, fuel prices go up. Apple comes out with a new product, fuel prices go up. Apples sues and beats Samsung, fuel prices go up. Global warming causes MASSIVE increase in weed growth, fuel prices go up. People are having less babies, fuel prices go up. Prices are in a broad based decline, fuel prices go up. We have long ago discovered we are way past being the middle east of natural gas and have easily 250 years more of reserves, the price of fuel goes up. I am not sure what we do not understand that fuel prices are on automatic esculators to go .... UP !? ;)

    I think if a little "reality" was injected into the issue it would read something like:

    Presidential candidate X,Y Z will implement a plan to get fuel prices from 4+ per gal to 1.85 per gal, in less than two years ( back to 2003 LSD prices)

    LOL I am sure this candidate would not win ! If he/she did, he/she would not be long for the earth :sick: :lemon:
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    My assumption appears correct. Maryland and DC both have 41.9 cents/gal total gasoline tax. Maryland has 48.7, DC 47.9 cents/gal in diesel tax. So why would a Shell station in DC charge 2 cents over regular for diesel and a Shell station in Maryland charge 2 cents under premium. That's effectively a 30+ cent difference relative to their gas prices. No need to respond. It was a rhetorical question, as I understand that supply/demand and the free market are at work.

    As for your presidential candidate proposal, just what "plan" do you think it will take to get fuel prices down to $1.85 per gallon, that doesn't involve socialism or communism. Oops, sorry, forgot you were from California. ;) Just kidding, don't take that seriously.
This discussion has been closed.