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Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?
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At the end of the day, bailouts will need to continue under the foreseeable scenario just painted by the White House, which is really non-binding since it isn't law. IOW, it isn't worthe the paper it's written on until Congress inks a new plan in February 2009.
Regards,
OW
Obama wants to create jobs so we can start a new line of green-mobiles. If we plan it right, we will not need one thin dime of our money to become billionaires of the taxpayer's back. It doesn't matter what the cars look like or if they are durable. We just need to pump them out like Smart Cars!
Regards,
OW
The real trick for GM and Chrysler to prove they can make a profit is to cut their plants and workers to meet the new demand, which in the only forecast I've seen, has been 9.3M for 2009. GM and Chrysler need to get the UAW to concede these people need to go; not linger in Job Banks or get buyouts worth a few hundred thousand each. When you lose your job especially from a company that is getting loans from the government the only check you should get is from the unemployment office (just like most of us).
The suppliers also need to make these 40% cuts in plants and personnel also. IF the vehicle market picks up in 2010, and that is real Iffy, then start rehiring.
If you truly believe in the free market system and pure capitalism - NOBODY should get a government bailout. Heck, nobody should get public assistance or unemployment compensation if you are truly hardcore! Are there not prisons? Are there not workhouses?
Look out below, another storm hits early Sunday! No car shopping for us around here for a while!
Regards,
OW
Article 9 of that constitution renounced war & prohibited Japan from maintaining armed forces powerful enough to threaten other countries. This article, together with the rest of the constitution, is still in force today.
Again, Japan has gotten a free ride on defense largely because this is what the U.S. government wanted.
I've been saying exactly that for months. Finally, you're getting it. Glad to see that you're backing away from limp-wristed French-style socialism.
So why don't you think that bankruptcy is a good idea? Your beloved Cadillac brand would be more likely to survive & thrive as part of a slimmed-down GM.
I don't think union concessions will make a hill of beans, and if I were Waggoner or Nardelli, I wouldn't even bring it up with Gettelfinger. Instead I'd head to the factory floor with him and tell the troops to screw everything together better than ever.
The best use of the bailout money given to GM and Chrysler would be to fund new and used car loans. Nothing else is going to move product and if they aren't selling cars, the whole shebang will collapse.
Gettlefinger has every right to hold out for the best deal he can get. It's what he should do. He has a legally binding contract in place right now. He doesn't have to accept any of the terms of the bailout loans. If he doesn't accept any of these terms all that will happen is that GM will have to give the money back to the Feds, it then goes belly up and ends up in BK court. Then a new negotiation begins this time under court supervision.
Typically the unions are good negotiators and the company teams are bad negotiators.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-12-04-auto-workers-by-state_N.htm
WheelMan
Well the vehicles that are going to be sold in the next 3 months are mostly built and sitting somewhere. There is over a 100 day supply. And with the shutdown coming, there aren't going to be much of a %-age of newly made vehicles selling before the loans run out.
The best use of the bailout money given to GM and Chrysler would be to fund new and used car loans.
Well maybe - there might be some small pool of people who can't get loans otherwise, who aren't high risk; but I think that is a small number. I think the main 2 reasons that vehicles aren't selling (or vacation travel is down) is that people feel a lot poorer and less secure right now. People have lost a lot of money this year, and even though many can afford a new vehicle, they are not bringing their wealth down further. For instance if my 401K was $200K and my house was $250K, they may now be worth $120K and $170K, and I'm figuring I've lost $160K this year. That does not put me in the mood to go spend another $25K+ for a new car that is going to depreciate.
There are plenty of decent used vehicle options out there for people.
WheelMan
WheelMan
You can rant and rave if it will make you feel better, but you can't vote - what the U.S. government will be getting from GM and Chrysler (for now, maybe Ford will join them later) is non-voting warrants for stock.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
it felt good to get out there using the snowblower and snow shovel and driving my suv in the snow/slush.
by noon today, the highway exit to the mall on my way home from work was backed up onto the highway.
Regards,
OW
I can think of two more: Waggoner and Nardelli.
--and some of the blue-collar-union workers that i've known haven't helped with their two hour "potty breaks",rather than the reason most of the big three haven't produced the parts for the interior of our cars since the -70's..at the plant-just acrost the border from texas,where the u.a.w workers took a tour,and were amazed how these workers were "nose to the grindstone"-producing constantly,,because every day,when entering the plant,there are THOUSANDS camped out against the security fence,PRAYING for someone to louse their job,just to get a chance to work for maybe a third of what g.m.paid a american worker-when many wouldn't show up either friday or monday-taking EVERY "sick" day they could,and not loose their job..not unlike the middle management exec's,and their "three hour/six apple-tini "lunches"..its no wonder they are going broke...
--the reason chrystler was broke in the -80's was management's decesion to focus production on those "land yhat",gas guzzling,rolling sofa kinda machines(imperial?),and how lee iacoca's SAVING the company with the idea of the "K" car,and the minivan..along with reviving the convertible-cars americans needed!,and bought!..
--we don't need "hemi-v 10's",we need a solar powered,or a idea that has now been proven to work-a car that runs on WATER..h20..use the hydrogen in a cell,and the byproduct would be -oxygen!!..it's been proven to work,where are THESE CARS??
One major problem here is that Americans don't care when they buy where a product comes from.
Look at the new CFL light bulbs all MADE IN CHINA ,no body bats an eyelash when they buy these things ,people just think of the savings on their electric bill . . . yet GE cut back its work force in Ohio,U.S.A. and closed a factory in Brazil that made older type incadescent bulbs.
The workers asked ,how about making the new CFL's here ( Ohio and Brazil ) ,GE ignored them.
When people buy that HONDA or TOYOTA or whatever transplant it does create SOME American jobs but not ALL Hondas and Toyota and whatever are ASSEMBLED IN THE U.S.A.
I see plenty of Lexus, Honda's ,Nissans ,etc. on American roads and I believe they are the models ASSEMBLED IN JAPAN not the U.S.
Americans don't care as long as it is not their job lost.
no matter how you look at it the American buying habits are as much to blame as the BIG 3 and the UAW in the mess we are in.
You're right about that. The priority is the product, not where it comes from.
Look at the new CFL light bulbs all MADE IN CHINA ,no body bats an eyelash when they buy these things ,people just think of the savings on their electric bill . . . yet GE cut back its work force in Ohio,U.S.A. and closed a factory in Brazil that made older type incadescent bulbs.
The workers asked ,how about making the new CFL's here ( Ohio and Brazil ) ,GE ignored them.
Case in point...we buy the most desirable product. It's not like they CAN'T be made here, after all.
I see plenty of Lexus, Honda's ,Nissans ,etc. on American roads and I believe they are the models ASSEMBLED IN JAPAN not the U.S.
Americans don't care as long as it is not their job lost.
no matter how you look at it the American buying habits are as much to blame as the BIG 3 and the UAW in the mess we are in.
Another case in point...no one is holding a gun to the heads of the D3, forcing them to make products that are not as desirable as those of the J3.
Americans will buy what they perceive as the best product. We don't CARE who makes it. That's the free market. If a company doesn't make a desirable product domestically, that's not the fault of the American consumer, it's the fault of the company. Or are you saying we should all subject ourselves to inferior products voluntarily out of patriotism?
So, yes, I guess you could look at it as 'Japan owes us BIG TIME'.
:P
Any questions?
Regards,
OW
Look to your Congress for mandating CFL bulbs by 2012. No more incandescent. Two reasons all CFLs are made abroad. One they are very labor intensive. Second the EPA regulation on Mercury will not permit that kind of manufacturing to be built in the USA. Send the dirty work to China or Mexico, is what our government has done. Then they bail out the companies they try to run out of business like the Big 3 automakers.
thanks for listening
Stan
What happened to Dave?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
This case really makes me wonder...if GM can't fix his problem then who is supposed to?;
Jim Allen would disagree. He spent two years trying to get General Motors to fix his 2004 Chevrolet Silverado pickup truck.
The tow haul function worked properly up to 75 kilometres per hour. But at higher speeds, it would not shift back after being locked in fourth gear.
By the time he finally went to arbitration this year, Allen had missed the deadline for having the manufacturer buy back his truck.
At a hearing in August, the arbitrator ordered GM to fix the tow haul function. But things are still at a stalemate.
"I am no closer to getting my truck fixed than I was the first time I took it in to the dealership back in May 2006," Allen says.
The arbitrator later hired an independent engineer from Fredericton to help GM determine what repairs had to be done.
The expert, David Hoar, said he had seen a compelling effort by GM to fix the problem by changing a great number of electronic module, wiring and sensor units.
"Despite the intense effort by the manufacturer, the tow haul function does not operate as designed on this vehicle," he concluded.
Stew Low, a GM spokesperson, said the case is difficult and will take time to resolve.
Right now, the ball is back in CAMVAP's(arbitration board) court.
The arbitrator has asked GM and Hoar to respond to a list of questions by mid-January.
"I don't blame Allen for being unhappy," Moody says.
"This needs a little more time to play out."
I don't see how the manufacturer can sell a device they can't even fix - and it is still under warranty?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Poor design and poor workmanship. That is the GM trademark over the last few years. I took my 2005 GMC Hybrid PU truck in for free oil change and asked the service manager to adjust the doors so I did not have loud wind noise at my ear. First time he told me they got it all adjusted. When I got back out on the freeway it was obvious they had not fixed the problem. So on the next oil change I told the Service people the doors still did not shut tight enough to keep out wind noise. They messed with it for over an hour while I was in the waiting room. Took it on two test drives and said that was the best they could do. I sold the truck when I found a person that just had to have one of the only Hybrid PU trucks GMC had built. Good riddance and goodbye to GM. Bankruptcy is too good for them. My new Sequoia fit and finish makes the GMC seem like a Soviet built Yugo. Both were built in Indiana. One by workers that are proud of what they build, the other by a bunch of over paid UAW donut munchers.
Reaction---everybody gets upset at our govt trying to help our industrail base which has pumped more money into our country over the last 100 yrs and advanced our std of living which is the why everybody wants to live in America..I don't see any mass exodus from the USA to Japan, Europe, China, Korea, or Russia..
America sends money to everybody, however we always blame our failures on whatever catch-phrase that works politically..Poor planning, inept leaders, and blah-blah.
The Asian and European auto makers are heavily involved with their govts for backing and the USA has opened up it's billfold to make them feel right at home here, while dissing Detroit..
Our incoming govt 2009 wants to get their hands on Detroit to enhance their "Global Warming" mantra to produce cars that nobody wants or will buy in any quantity.. Oil has been our lifeline, but we are not allowed to sustain this habit, due to environment limitatons placed on our nation by a handful of activists armed with lawsuits that has brought our country to a standstill...
I spent 34yrs as a supplier to the Big3 and various defense companies, lived in the Detroit area from 1968 thru 2002.. Spent 2yrs with a Japanese mfgr in the Battle Creek, Mi area so I have some insight on their games..
The bailout has been a political grandstand affair with the Democratic party charade of insults and fingerpointing..Yes, the UAW is beholden to the donkey party..Since there are some 700,000 retirees on the Big3 payroll, I think we should just give the UAW GM and Chrysler to run and see if anyone complains about govt financing..That can be spun many ways..
Isn't the problem that they currently don't build any cars that anyone wants to buy? And don't start in about CAFE rules forcing them to do that because other companies, including Ford, seem to manage, while GM and Chrysler can't.
Oil has been our lifeline, but we are not allowed to sustain this habit, due to environment limitations placed on our nation by a handful of activists armed with lawsuits that has brought our country to a standstill...
Then of course there's the fact that that "lifeline" makes up beholden to several countries that don't like us very much. That's a national security issue until we fix it.
I think we should just give the UAW GM and Chrysler to run and see if anyone complains about govt financing.
That's actually not the worst idea I've ever heard...make the UAW majority shareholders in each company, use stock dividends as a part of the UAW pension fund, makes the entire UAW directly interested in making GM and Chrysler run successfully and profitably. Nothing like self-interest as a motivator, right?
If I am calculating right. GM market cap is somewhere less than $3 billion. We could buy the company and give it to the UAW and tell them it is a make it or break show. All yours guys. Fire and hire as you see fit. Oh, and here is an extra Billion to get you going again.
I would bet within one week Gettlefinger would cut all health care. Wages would be cut in half and non workers would be on the street. That is the kind of hacking and chopping that will save the General from being a footnote in US history.
OK. Now that we are paying for the bleeding at the D3, here's the challenge...make cars BETTER than every other company in the world. Only then will I buy your product.
Any questions?
Regards,
OW
Though he is making $160,000 a year or somewhere around there, right? Still while that's higher than most, it's a much more palatable number to be attached to a person saying "We can't afford to keep paying you." Someone making $17 mill has to can how many line workers just to pay his salary? Around 170?
What games would that be, better products at lower prices? They did it with radio and TVs and now they are doing it with cars. I wonder if these same UAW workers bought American made TV and radios up until the bitter end? Would they pay Dell computers an extra $12.95 a month to speak to customer service in the U.S. instead of India?
..Since there are some 700,000 retirees on the Big3 payroll,
With benefits all added in a D3 worker is paid almost $3000 a week! That is much more than almost every non-professional worker, and more than most professionals. Probably more than many doctors and certainly more than most nurses, public school teachers.....and though it is hard work, it doesn't require more than a high school diploma, and there isn't much responsibility, as far as making life or death decisions, etc.
I think we should just give the UAW GM and Chrysler to run and see if anyone complains about govt financing..
That is the best idea yet!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The only thing the UAW can Run---is it's mouth!!!!!!!!!! Sorry I had them running the auto plants. Thoughtless of me...After running a small mfgr. plant for 7yrs, 16 miles south of Flint, Mi.,yes, it was UAW and we got along well, we always retained the right to run the shop..something that the Big3 lost yrs ago..
Spent the last 15 yrs of my working life as straight-commission mfgr. rep supplying steel suspension parts for SUVs and running gear for Army tanks..Allowed me to play golf 4-5 days a week in the summer and winters in Fla, cell phones and fax machines just made life bearable..Not bad for a single-person organization!!!
Yep, I am heavily involved in real estate, north of Detroit..so I got caught big-time, had to buy it back at the Sheriff's sale. Big judgement against the other party. May open a gun-range on the 60 acres..
Michigan has !0% unemployment, Detroit is worse
I actually belonged to the Teamsters union for a short while while going to night school. Later, I once had a management job with a magazine distribution company. There were two unions involved, one for the drivers and one for the inside workers, and their contracts came up separately. If the drivers went on strike they didn't worry about the single mothers that were working on the inside. If the inside workers went on strike they didn't worry about the drivers who had families to support. But, when they get together for their union meeting they are all "brothers" and "sisters". :P
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
We don't need "Hemi V-10's" We need a solar powered,or a idea that has now been proven to work-a car that runs on WATER..h20..use the hydrogen in a cell,and the byproduct would be -oxygen!!..it's been proven to work,where are THESE CARS??
Uh, in some 1970s science-fiction magazine?
Which is PRECISELY why I don't buy CFL bulbs! I'll still buy regular old incandescent bulbs that are still made here!
i can see blacktop on my street and my driveway.
my guess is, kids will be going to school as usual.
my kids are trying to get my wife to test drive a new car next week.
she will only consider a D3, no matter what.
Not much longer you will not. Our illustrious 110th Congress has mandated all CFL bulbs by 2012. Then our wonderful EPA will not allow them to be made in the USA because they contain Mercury. It will put a lot of Union people on the street that worked in the light bulb business. If you find a USA made CFL let me know. I looked all over and talked to Lights of America that was the last company to make them in the USA. She told me how they were forced out of the business.
"Jesse Toprak, senior analyst at auto info site Edmunds.com, said Detroit needs more than money right now: It could use a stimulus from Washington to motivate hesitant car buyers to re-enter the marketplace. He said Edmunds forecasts that the industry's U.S. December sales will clock in at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 9.8 million vehicles. "No automaker can survive as a viable business in the United States if fewer than 11 million vehicles are sold annually industrywide," he said."
Ad Age
as far as i am concerned, you have no idea what you want to drive, considering the varied vehicles you have posted about owning.
that is still 9.8 million vehicles.
lemko, the definition of 'americans' has changed.
Very astute observation. I don't want to drive the same car to the grocery store as to the lumber yard as to the mall. I don't want to head cross country in the same vehicle I take to Costco. I really have not liked any vehicle 100%. Always something negative. I would not give any vehicle I have ever owned all 10s on the Edmund's consumer reviews. Of all the vehicles I have owned the Suburban was closest to my liking. Yet it used a lot of gas. The Passat TDI was the most fun to drive and got the best mileage of any vehicle I ever owned. It was too close to the ground for back country trails and getting in an out was not easy. I will probably go to my grave believing Americans have been deprived of the most practical vehicles sold in the World. Automakers have taken full advantage of the Americans Foo Foo, Bling Bling mentality. That and 0-60 MPH being the foremost consideration buying a new vehicle.