GM needs a total re-structuring, and re-negotiating of contracts. The ONLY way this will happen is Chapter 11. The government will never force these tough actions, and GM will never do it on their own. 11, it's the only answer. If we give them $25 billion now, they will only be back for more later. A line has to be drawn, and this is it.
There's only 2 cars on your bestselling list of 5 cars, and if anyone ever thought the Escort was the best car in its class I don't know who it was. How many fleet and rental sales must have made the Escort the best seller? That's the kind of thing I am talking about, they didn't have the BEST car in the class, they may have had the bestseller, but they could never charge a premium for the Escort.
Until the big 3 and the UAW are willing to set aside their arrogance and stubbornness, there will be no viable solutions put on the table.
UAW kind of in a big poker game. I wonder how many of its members are really in touch with reality on this whole situation. Do majority support Gettlefinger? Would many of them sign a reverse "Card Check", if there was one, to eliminate UAW representation and take their chances with Big 3 high management to be fair and equitable as Honda and Toyota apparently are? Or, are UAW members so brainwashed by the union to not trust any company management whether Big 3 or any other company.
But, of course, there still is the issue of GM having redundant brands, too many models, too many dealers, contractural agreements with dealers, etc that have to be solved.
They think that if after getting their $73 an hour, there is anything left over, mgmt can decide how to split it up. If it is a net loss, then mgmt eats it. They don't see how anything can ever effect this situation and therefore see no need to negotiate any changes. If GM goes belly up, they fall back on their US gov't guaranteed pensions.
When mgmt sees 'a not worth saving business unit' popping it's ugly head, they can close a plant and shed just those workers. Then they develop a replacement product that is different and grow it from start outside the UAW grips. Mexico, Portugal, Brazil, etc.
Salary GM workers are mad as hell about this. Their great labors are spent on a totally broken system. They are unprotected and can be eliminated at any time, yet they are expected to pull off miracles to somehow put a product into the market that can compete after a $26 an hour labor cost disadvantage. To have held onto 29% of the US car market in spite of that disadvantage is quite an accomplishment and shows how American workers can be the best in the world. Just think what they could do with a level playing field!!
The month delay in a bailout is a bad move. To ask for a better plan means having to show how to compete with all their handicaps, including the $26 an hour extra labor expense and all the legacy pensions and health care. Most people still don't know that the UAW has always gotten 100% health care for the bridge years between their last work day and when they turn 65. The list of places that also give that benefit is also a list of BK entities, starting with the US Congress, and some NE municipalities.
NOW we're talking! Next we need the top execs at all 3 companies to hand in their resignations, and we will be well on our way to an acceptable situation for a bailout to go forward.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If GM goes belly up, they fall back on their US gov't guaranteed pensions.
There is a statutory limit on the amount that PBGC can guarantee. Under the single-employer program, the limit is adjusted annually based on changes in the Social Security contribution and benefit base and is permanently established for each pension plan based on the date the plan terminates except for cases in which termination occurs during a plan sponsor's bankruptcy or for certain airline industry plans. For plans with a 2008 termination date, the maximum guarantee is $51,750.00 yearly ($4,312.50 monthly) for a single life annuity beginning at age 65. The maximum is adjusted downward for retirees younger than age 65. For example, the maximum guarantee for a participant who retires at age 62 is $40,882.56 yearly ($3,406.88 monthly) for a single-life annuity. At age 55, the maximum guarantee is $23,287.56 yearly ($1,940.63 monthly).
At 55 you will be stuck paying your own Health Care. Most I have seen will be about $900 per month or more. You would be better off waiting till near 65 to retire.
- Ford's new CEO, Alan Mulally, got $27.8 million in salary and bonus in his first few months on the job, including an $18.5 million signing bonus.
- Toyota's top executive, Hiroshi Okuda, earned $903,000 in 2006.
"There is a huge difference between Asia and here when it comes to the top executive compensation," says Han Kim, a professor of business administration at the University of Michigan. "Rarely in Asia, especially Japan and Korea, do the CEOs get paid more than a million dollars."
If a company fails, why does the CEO get a golden parachute? It was his ineptness that lead them to this situation, why should it be rewarded? Rarely in Asian countries do CEOs have such a huge golden parachute. Maybe some unemployment wages, since finding a CEO job is not easy.
>but it does have to be honored because it is legal.
I am not arguing that. I am raising this question if this is fair and as a lesson learned, we, the shareholders, should not approve of a golden parachute that puts us to shame, in the future.
I'll bet that representatives of the incoming Obama administration and key Congressional Democrats took UAW leadership to the woodshed, and said, "Your appearance was a disaster, and Wagoner's woeful performance only made it worse.
"Nothing will get through Congress to be signed by President Obama if there aren't some serious changes on each side, and telling the American people to 'wait until 2010' isn't the answer. Obama isn't going to start his term by infuriating the moderates who really put him into office. Offer some sacrifices and get something, or take your chances in bankruptcy court."
So lets pump stupid money into something that's not working.
Meanwhile back at the ranch out West, Aptera struggles to get production going, Tesla is going now but not like anything on the scale of Detroit. Do they get any money? Of course not.
Clean sheet design of electric cars and it's eerily quiet from the federal government..... got to keep that oil strong. Detroit clinks their tin cup on the sidewalk and the money is expected.
Oh, but don't worry, R&D is getting the Volt going with GM. The only problem is the car is a complete joke.
GM management is responsible for the shape the company is in. It's nice to be able to lay part of the blame on the unions, but it's management that OK'd the union deals.They've made bad decisions and given us bad products & bad quality for years; now they want us to bail them out?
They want us to believe that the same inbred, short sighted management that was dumb enough to get get the company into this fix is smart enough to get it out of it. LOL.
There might be some hope for Ford. They hired a man from outside the industry that appears to be trying to get the company back on track with some new competitive products that, according to Consumers Report Etc., rival the Asian mfrs. in quality.
As for Chrysler, nobody will even miss them if they go under.
GM has the Chevy Camaro around the corner! This dud should appeal to the nostalgia crowd and the under 10 group that watched the movie Transformers. My grandson sure loves Bumble Bee, :lemon: Once the novelty wears off what else do they have to offer? Bloated, blundering SUV's, hybrid wannabees that get 2 mpg more than their gas only counterparts? I saw a Challenger this weekend and no one cared. The Mustang at least is living up to its late 60's early 70's glory days and beginning to look like it. I see Ford as the only survivor of this mess. Chrysler for all intents and purposes is dead and GM is gasping for air.
Same with mine. I bought him the "ultimate Bumble Bee" last weekend. It took both of us close to an hour to transform it from a robot to a car. The thing must have weighed 5 lbs and came in its own special package.
Maybe GM can paint one of the corporate jets up to be somewhat like Bumble Bee.....
Gosh, I wonder if the folks at Aptera have a corporate jet...... Security concerns and all.
I wouldn't know one of these executives (Big Three) even if they walked up to the corner of the bar and bought me a beer, I'd thank them (money is tight) but I doubt I'd recognize them.
Security concerns... They're joking right? Hey, about that beer.......
CNN reports today that CEO of Japan Airlines, one of top 10 airlines in the world cut his own salaries to the same level as pilots ($90,000 /year). He takes a bus to work, eat at company cafeteria.
Not sure whether he does not get compensation in other forms, but it's typical Japanese CEO who take praise than money. There have been several Japanese executives who resigned or killed themselves when something went wrong.
I work for a decent sized corporation with a presence in many nations, and as far as I know, the top execs don't fly private either...I know how those up to the level of VP of finance and VP of sales/service fly commercial, coach at least at some times. Of course, my employer also isn't sinking. Security...joking indeed.
For 25 yrs I worked for what is now the largest steel company in the world. It's several multiples the size of GM and Ford combined. NO ONE at any level including the CEO ever took anything other than commercial airline flights.
Now they did fly the Concorde and the top people did fly First Class when available but it was mostly Business Class.
Clean sheet design of electric cars and it's eerily quiet from the federal government.
Add to that the recent legislation passed in CA that took away some kind of EV incentive. I know the Tesla people were not happy at all. I really believe the Feds and states like CA are only giving lip service to alternatives. Unless there is some serious lobby money in it for Congress. Such as the ethanol boondoggle we are losing billions on. In the end it will probably be the same kind mess in the Big 3 bailout.
I consider the Tesla as just about worthless with its 6000 AA batteries to fail. The Volt is not a whole lot better from where I see it. The are fat cat toys, nothing more.
The Big 3 jets in themselves would not break the company. It is the over all mentality of waste that is killing them. If nothing else bankruptcy would have some justice in the fact that these fat cat executives would lose what ever money they have in company stock. I don't think it is out of the realm of a bailout to set executive pay levels. We are expecting the UAW to match the competition here in the USA. Why not the executives. If Toyota is paying less than a $ million per year for a CEO. That should be part of any bailout. That includes the banks and brokerages we are funding or saving. Or tax bonus money at 90% like in the good old days.
For 25 yrs I worked for what is now the largest steel company in the world. It's several multiples the size of GM and Ford combined. NO ONE at any level including the CEO ever took anything other than commercial airline flights.
A friend of mine's dad used to fly a corporate jet for Midwest Steel in northwest Indiana in the late 80's. I don't know if they are still in business. I'd guess like most of the steel mills running in that area now, most have gone BK and are operating under different management.
Aditya Mittal has been flying around in a private jet, and it sounds like the jet has been around for a decade. (link). Midwest Steel is still around (assuming it's the same outfit?). They made the steel used to rebuild the GM factory that was flattened by a tornado in OK and made the steel for the Toyota factory in San Antonio.
One of my relations works for Nucor Steel. "In August 2006, the company did purchase a corporate jet for use by senior management. In a letter to all employees from the CEO, Dan DiMicco explained that the frequent rentals of charter jets made a corporate jet purchase a cost-effective measure." (Wiki) Nucor has its roots in Oldsmobile btw.
I can just see Wagoner sitting in first class and having some Vega or Cimarron owner recognize him and start slugging away, especially after last week's performance. :P
Obama gave a short radio talk this morning and mentioned fuel-efficient cars, but nothing about a bailout. link title
Obama gave a short radio talk this morning and mentioned fuel-efficient cars
I think Obama knows that letting the Big 3 die is the best way to start fresh with a new era of EVs and fuel efficient cars. The Big 3 cannot build high mileage inexpensive cars for the masses with their corporate bloat. They can only survive if the buying public goes back to buying Tahoes and Explorers. I don't see that happening anytime soon. I would look to the Chinese to own most of Michigan before too long. Minnesota is close by and grows the best wild rice. It's a natural. :shades:
Blame Steve, one of the hosts, for this post. He linked this discussion in a Hummer post. Love links to positions that show the post is more than an emotional response. Think the problem is endemic to a consumerist society driven by greed, no regulations please-I got mine go get yours, unless something happens and need to cry like a stuck pig for government programs to help me - that statement is an emotional response to red individuals who talk tough until it hurts them specifically.
Yes, American ceos seem grossly overpaid compared to known payments of Japanese executives - been so for a long time. Don't pay to enrich pro athletes either (small local teams popping up all over the area-can't get into the majors or just love to play, hope it is the latter).
Saw the evening news and the new honda plant in IN making civics, earn less then union wages and saw mostly young faces and what looked like Japanese managers mixed in the crowd watching the Honda Executive give his speech. I have worked with an older man who was happy to work because he just came from WV earning fifty cents an hour-1979 if I remember correctly.
Worked a summer in a seamless tube mill and spent some time on the PA Turnpike decades ago(this is for steve's comment). Instead of a rational approach to growth, Levittown consumed farmland to make money by building houses of sticks and houses are still being built with sticks and plywood if it is available..
Loans, why not. Bankruptcy-is that to break more unions. Ronald was a union hater possibly because of a preceived injustice to him. So he broke the air traffic controllers and the few overworked controllers are still sending out the alarm. A. Jackson, an anti-Hamiltonian, broke the first BUS and Biddle. How would you like to bring back red dog banking. Recessions and worse until the final straw when regulations protected us (under FDR) until this latest round of deregulation and money grabbing.
Worked in sales awhile back, the owner was once an airplane mechanic until...cheaper bodies could be found who couldn't read. An now an amusing incident, was coming out of a parts store and noticed a guy wiring under the hood and was suprised a new truck had a wiring issue. He had wired up his own trailer hitch and had a problem. So he said he did what he does at work-put in a piece of heavy copper wire and see what melts then wire around it. His occupation-aircraft mechanic, says those old planes have been worked on so much blueprints are useless.
The personal auto is the result of corporate and government cooperation? destroying mass transit decades ago. Even Jay Leno made a comment of the danger of lost technology. Why do think the Chinese demanded the technology to build vehicles. I have done several industrial and technical jobs before that BS diploma. Things would not work without the passing down of specific information from one person to the next about that job, product, method.
Give them the loan - where are the trillions the current ins have given away or are you still listening to those fear mongerers on the radio misdirecting your emotions.
Some might say that it is immoral to take money from the tax payer to give to a failed enterprise. This means any failed enterprise, AIG to GM.
Some might say that Socialism punishes:
1. Hard Work
2. Thrift
3. Entrepreneurship
Is this the Road To Serfdom and do we really want to proceed down this road?
Should the government have bailed out the buggy whip manufacturers at the turn of the last century?
Some might say let Creative Destruction take place and the economic resources will be reallocated to their most efficent use by the millions of participants in the market.
Was it freedom or Socialism that provided the US with the highest standard of living in the history of human civilization?
All new for 2012, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the mandatory American car so advanced it took $100 billion and an entire Congress to design it. We started with same reliable 7-way hybrid ethanol-biodeisel-electric-clean coal-wind-solar-pedal power plant behind the base model Pelosi, but packed it with extra oomph and the sassy styling pizazz that tells the world that 1974 Detroit is back again -- with a vengeance.
We've subsidized the features you want and taxed away the rest. With its advanced Al Gore-designed V-3 under the hood pumping out 22.5 thumping, carbon-neutral ponies of Detroit muscle, you'll never be late for the Disco or the Day Labor Shelter. Engage the pedal drive or strap on the optional jumbo mizzenmast, and the GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition easily exceeds 2016 CAFE mileage standards. At an estimated 268 MPG, that's a savings of nearly $1800 per week in fuel cost over the 2011 Pelosi.
Even with increased performance we didn't skimp on safety. With 11-point passenger racing harnesses, 15-way airbags, and mandatory hockey helmet, you'll have the security knowing that you could survive a 45 MPH collision even if the GTxi SS/Rt were capable of that kind of illegal speed.
But the changes don't stop there. Sporty mag-style hubcaps and an all-new aggressive wedge shape designed by CM's Chief Stylist Ted Kennedy slices through the wind like an omnibus spending bill. It even features an airtight undercarriage to keep you and a passenger afloat up to 15 minutes -- even in the choppy waters of a Cape Cod inlet. Available a rainbow of color choices to match any wardrobe, from Harvest Avocado to French Mustard.
Inside, a luxurious all-velour interior designed by Barney Frank features thoughtful appointments like in-dash condom dispenser and detachable vibrating shift knob. A special high capacity hatchback holds up to 300 aluminum cans, meaning fewer trips to the redemption center. And the standard 3 speaker Fairness ActoPhonic FM low-band sound system means you'll never miss a segment of NPR again.
Best of all, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt is made right here in the U.S.A. by fully card-checked unionized workers and Detroit's famous visionary jet-set managers. Even if you don't own one, you can enjoy the patriotic satisfaction that you're supporting the high wages, good benefits, and generous political donations that are once again making the American car industry the envy of the world.
But why not buy one anyway? With an MSRP starting at only $629,999.99, it's affordable too. Don't forget to ask about dealer incentives, rebates, tax credits, and wealth redistribution plans for customers from dozens of qualifying special interest groups. Plus easy-pay financing programs from Fannie Mae.
We have been losing the economic war for decades to countries that do not respect our free trade principals and have been using them to bring our country to it's knees
What are you talking about? Both China and India were closed economies (and - if we go that far back in history - so was Japan). It was the US who forced them open, with the "Capitalism is good" mantra.
Now that they compete with US, and parts of US economy cannot compete with them, you want to change the rules?
In the last five years, US has completely lost its moral high ground. I live in Japan, and remember the sermons that US preached to the Japanese Govt in later 90s about how to let the "weak go under" for the greater good, and now we have US bailing out anything that is still breathing.
So please, please - Take any line of argument, but THAT
Thanks for the buggy whip comment. Was going to relate that technological change in a Hummer post. Did Fisher Body build carriages before car bodies? Some people still use whips but what happened to the blacksmiths.
Libertarians would probably say that's your problem I got mine go find yours somewhere else. Modern Society is represented by interdependency. We don't build our own log cabins, dig wells, kill and butcher animals, plant crops, fix the ague with homemade cures, gin our cotton and weave on our looms.
The last bubble started after ww2, capitalists rebuilt the axis while our infrastructure, save Ike's interstates patterned after the PA Turnpike and the autobahn, was left to wither on the vine.
The final deregulation provided for our comsumptive societal system to be fed with borrowed international money. The CN$ climbed and retreated, the yen has just climbed and retreated a little. Unless all world currencies can be debased like the fiat dollar, perhaps hyperinflation is around the corner and everyone will be gnashing their teeth. Did you get yours while the gettin was good.
So what harm is a little loan compared to the trillions wasted on armament. There was a shortage of ammo not too long ago. Without a textile industry where are fatigues sewn. Hardness strengths on bolts that are true, weak Brazilian steel, and a veteran of LBJ/Nixon's war recently saw the label on a package of his underwear - made in Vietnam.
Wikipedia says that Fisher Body's beginnings trace back to a horse-drawn carriage shop in Norwalk, Ohio, in the late 1800s. No forge, but I have a weaving loom fwiw.
When it reaches a point and our freedom is on the line, who makes the steel and builds the armaments? I guess we'll depend on the Chinese owned steelmakers and the Japanese owned automakers. By the way, without any U.S. based industry where do the American engineers go to work? I guess we'll let the Japanese or Chinese busineses equip our military. Let's hope they don't become our enemies.
Simple, the management of the big 3 have to approve the contract for the UAW. What you pay your employees is the responsibility of management. If you agree to overpay your employees and give them unreasonable benefits, you can't blame them for you losing money. You agreed to the terms. The buck stops with the CEO which is why they were getting grilled and why Rick Wagoner needs to go.
China requires JV's and has little to no patent protections. I hope this is not what you consider open.
Our companies are competing with Countries. Currency manipulation, uneven trade policies and looser labor rules undermine the U.S. You cannot hold American companies to costly standards and then allow other countries to dump product on your market while they set up barriers to U.S. products in their own markets.
I don't care that you live in Japan or about the sermons that the U.S. gave. The bottom line is that countries compete with the U.S. because we make it easy for them to undercut our industries. For you to insinuate that the U.S. cannot compete is maddening and just wrong. No company can compete with countries. The U.S. Government needs to grow a set and level the playing field.
And don't talk about the U.S. bailing out industry when Japan in #1 when it comes to corporate welfare. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Just got the early edition of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and Ed's Column is titled "The Bailout". Not available yet on the paper's website (maybe tomorrow) so the following link is for the last column, which was also linked in a Hummer post.
Lies, lies and more lies. That is what the media feeds US on a daily basis.
Hammer This habit of misinforming us is hardly new. Early this year, all of the so-called experts were being quoted daily saying that the primary cause justifying crude’s ever-higher prices was oil supply problems. But that just didn’t align with facts that anyone could easily find: Oil was plentiful – while demand was falling worldwide.
I don't agree with all he says. He does point out some interesting facts that are left out of mainstream reporting.
dave.....Fisher Body did indeed start out life as a "horse drawn buggy" manufacturer. That turned into building coaches for the (then) burgeoning auto industry. They were known for their "quality" coach building. GM bought them, and they became the exclusive builder of "Body by Fisher" for all their lines.
My very first job out of college (going back 20+ years) was doing computer programming for the local Fisher Body plant. Pretty rudimentary stuff compared to the sophistication of robotic car building today.
Anyway, we stamped and formed body panels and "T-tops" for the then Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Camaro/Firebird, and made sunroofs for Cadillacs...as well as sundry little connectors and pieces to bolt the panels to the frames. All those panels were then shipped about 20 minutes away to an assembly plant, which turned out finished Camaros and Firebirds (and to other assembly plants for Montes/Grand Prix and Cadillacs).
Those plants are long gone. The idea of quality "Body by Fisher" lost its luster. They're little more than a memory, now.
Thank you very much for your post. My used gm cars of the 60's duece and a quarter and a sedan de ville, If I remember correctly, had a chrome? strip above the rocker panel with Body by Fisher or Fisher Body or something like that on them and saw a short reference about their beginnings and now your final sentence ends another memory for us older guys.
I remember the Body by Fisher door sill plates on my Dad's '53 Buick.
"President-elect Barack Obama's advisers said Sunday automakers must convince Congress that they have a plan to return to profitability before they can get $25 billion in emergency bridge loans -- and that they should fly commercial."
Thanks for the correct description "door sill plates". '53 Buick, didn't have one of those, but that reminds me of the 53? Skylark convertible - saw one never got to ride in it.
Even though a blue person in a not so red state anymore, would love to have been a fly on the wall in that white house meeting. And red blue doesn't really matter. Leger demaine? the path has been shown. First George I and then the British PM, new world order, and the PM wanted the middle east and china to pay for our part. Will we get one amero for one or three or five or more greenbacks. An earlier post used the word "serf" pretty much nailed it. I still believe it is all about submission. Keep a jet plane but don't fly on a little plane-important people have had accidents.
Comments
"F150
Taurus
Ranger
Escort
E150
Explorer"
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aRfqFMhlj5lk&refer=worldwide-
We keep trying to create new "instruments" to deal with things, don't we?
UAW kind of in a big poker game. I wonder how many of its members are really in touch with reality on this whole situation. Do majority support Gettlefinger? Would many of them sign a reverse "Card Check", if there was one, to eliminate UAW representation and take their chances with Big 3 high management to be fair and equitable as Honda and Toyota apparently are? Or, are UAW members so brainwashed by the union to not trust any company management whether Big 3 or any other company.
But, of course, there still is the issue of GM having redundant brands, too many models, too many dealers, contractural agreements with dealers, etc that have to be solved.
When mgmt sees 'a not worth saving business unit' popping it's ugly head, they can close a plant and shed just those workers. Then they develop a replacement product that is different and grow it from start outside the UAW grips. Mexico, Portugal, Brazil, etc.
Salary GM workers are mad as hell about this. Their great labors are spent on a totally broken system. They are unprotected and can be eliminated at any time, yet they are expected to pull off miracles to somehow put a product into the market that can compete after a $26 an hour labor cost disadvantage. To have held onto 29% of the US car market in spite of that disadvantage is quite an accomplishment and shows how American workers can be the best in the world. Just think what they could do with a level playing field!!
The month delay in a bailout is a bad move. To ask for a better plan means having to show how to compete with all their handicaps, including the $26 an hour extra labor expense and all the legacy pensions and health care. Most people still don't know that the UAW has always gotten 100% health care for the bridge years between their last work day and when they turn 65. The list of places that also give that benefit is also a list of BK entities, starting with the US Congress, and some NE municipalities.
GM market share is currently at 22%.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Say What?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There is a statutory limit on the amount that PBGC can guarantee. Under the single-employer program, the limit is adjusted annually based on changes in the Social Security contribution and benefit base and is permanently established for each pension plan based on the date the plan terminates except for cases in which termination occurs during a plan sponsor's bankruptcy or for certain airline industry plans. For plans with a 2008 termination date, the maximum guarantee is $51,750.00 yearly ($4,312.50 monthly) for a single life annuity beginning at age 65. The maximum is adjusted downward for retirees younger than age 65. For example, the maximum guarantee for a participant who retires at age 62 is $40,882.56 yearly ($3,406.88 monthly) for a single-life annuity. At age 55, the maximum guarantee is $23,287.56 yearly ($1,940.63 monthly).
At 55 you will be stuck paying your own Health Care. Most I have seen will be about $900 per month or more. You would be better off waiting till near 65 to retire.
- Toyota's top executive, Hiroshi Okuda, earned $903,000 in 2006.
"There is a huge difference between Asia and here when it comes to the top executive compensation," says Han Kim, a professor of business administration at the University of Michigan. "Rarely in Asia, especially Japan and Korea, do the CEOs get paid more than a million dollars."
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-10-09-auto-exec-pay_N.htm
It was his ineptness that lead them to this situation, why should it be rewarded?
Rarely in Asian countries do CEOs have such a huge golden parachute. Maybe some unemployment wages, since finding a CEO job is not easy.
Because the CEO was clever to have the provision written in his employment contract.
It doesn't have to be liked, but it does have to be honored because it is legal. :P
Regards,
OW
I am not arguing that. I am raising this question if this is fair and as a lesson learned, we, the shareholders, should not approve of a golden parachute that puts us to shame, in the future.
"Nothing will get through Congress to be signed by President Obama if there aren't some serious changes on each side, and telling the American people to 'wait until 2010' isn't the answer. Obama isn't going to start his term by infuriating the moderates who really put him into office. Offer some sacrifices and get something, or take your chances in bankruptcy court."
Meanwhile back at the ranch out West, Aptera struggles to get production going, Tesla is going now but not like anything on the scale of Detroit. Do they get any money? Of course not.
Clean sheet design of electric cars and it's eerily quiet from the federal government..... got to keep that oil strong. Detroit clinks their tin cup on the sidewalk and the money is expected.
Oh, but don't worry, R&D is getting the Volt going with GM. The only problem is the car is a complete joke.
They want us to believe that the same inbred, short sighted management that was dumb enough to get get the company into this fix is smart enough to get it out of it. LOL.
There might be some hope for Ford. They hired a man from outside the industry that appears to be trying to get the company back on track with some new competitive products that, according to Consumers Report Etc., rival the Asian mfrs. in quality.
As for Chrysler, nobody will even miss them if they go under.
My 5 year old loves bumble bee to death, but when he saw it in the Auto show, he did not even take a second look at it.
Gosh, I wonder if the folks at Aptera have a corporate jet...... Security concerns and all.
I wouldn't know one of these executives (Big Three) even if they walked up to the corner of the bar and bought me a beer, I'd thank them (money is tight) but I doubt I'd recognize them.
Security concerns... They're joking right? Hey, about that beer.......
Not sure whether he does not get compensation in other forms, but it's typical Japanese CEO who take praise than money. There have been several Japanese executives who resigned or killed themselves when something went wrong.
Now they did fly the Concorde and the top people did fly First Class when available but it was mostly Business Class.
Add to that the recent legislation passed in CA that took away some kind of EV incentive. I know the Tesla people were not happy at all. I really believe the Feds and states like CA are only giving lip service to alternatives. Unless there is some serious lobby money in it for Congress. Such as the ethanol boondoggle we are losing billions on. In the end it will probably be the same kind mess in the Big 3 bailout.
I consider the Tesla as just about worthless with its 6000 AA batteries to fail. The Volt is not a whole lot better from where I see it. The are fat cat toys, nothing more.
A friend of mine's dad used to fly a corporate jet for Midwest Steel in northwest Indiana in the late 80's. I don't know if they are still in business. I'd guess like most of the steel mills running in that area now, most have gone BK and are operating under different management.
Aditya Mittal has been flying around in a private jet, and it sounds like the jet has been around for a decade. (link). Midwest Steel is still around (assuming it's the same outfit?). They made the steel used to rebuild the GM factory that was flattened by a tornado in OK and made the steel for the Toyota factory in San Antonio.
One of my relations works for Nucor Steel. "In August 2006, the company did purchase a corporate jet for use by senior management. In a letter to all employees from the CEO, Dan DiMicco explained that the frequent rentals of charter jets made a corporate jet purchase a cost-effective measure." (Wiki) Nucor has its roots in Oldsmobile btw.
I can just see Wagoner sitting in first class and having some Vega or Cimarron owner recognize him and start slugging away, especially after last week's performance. :P
Obama gave a short radio talk this morning and mentioned fuel-efficient cars, but nothing about a bailout. link title
I think Obama knows that letting the Big 3 die is the best way to start fresh with a new era of EVs and fuel efficient cars. The Big 3 cannot build high mileage inexpensive cars for the masses with their corporate bloat. They can only survive if the buying public goes back to buying Tahoes and Explorers. I don't see that happening anytime soon. I would look to the Chinese to own most of Michigan before too long. Minnesota is close by and grows the best wild rice. It's a natural. :shades:
Yes, American ceos seem grossly overpaid compared to known payments of Japanese executives - been so for a long time. Don't pay to enrich pro athletes either (small local teams popping up all over the area-can't get into the majors or just love to play, hope it is the latter).
Saw the evening news and the new honda plant in IN making civics, earn less then union wages and saw mostly young faces and what looked like Japanese managers mixed in the crowd watching the Honda Executive give his speech.
I have worked with an older man who was happy to work because he just came from WV earning fifty cents an hour-1979 if I remember correctly.
Worked a summer in a seamless tube mill and spent some time on the PA Turnpike decades ago(this is for steve's comment). Instead of a rational approach to growth, Levittown consumed farmland to make money by building houses of sticks and houses are still being built with sticks and plywood if it is available..
Loans, why not. Bankruptcy-is that to break more unions. Ronald was a union hater possibly because of a preceived injustice to him. So he broke the air traffic controllers and the few overworked controllers are still sending out the alarm. A. Jackson, an anti-Hamiltonian, broke the first BUS and Biddle. How would you like to bring back red dog banking. Recessions and worse until the final straw when regulations protected us (under FDR) until this latest round of deregulation and money grabbing.
Worked in sales awhile back, the owner was once an airplane mechanic until...cheaper bodies could be found who couldn't read. An now an amusing incident, was coming out of a parts store and noticed a guy wiring under the hood and was suprised a new truck had a wiring issue. He had wired up his own trailer hitch and had a problem. So he said he did what he does at work-put in a piece of heavy copper wire and see what melts then wire around it. His occupation-aircraft mechanic, says those old planes have been worked on so much blueprints are useless.
The personal auto is the result of corporate and government cooperation? destroying mass transit decades ago. Even Jay Leno made a comment of the danger of lost technology. Why do think the Chinese demanded the technology to build vehicles. I have done several industrial and technical jobs before that BS diploma. Things would not work without the passing down of specific information from one person to the next about that job, product, method.
Give them the loan - where are the trillions the current ins have given away or are you still listening to those fear mongerers on the radio misdirecting your emotions.
Some might say that Socialism punishes:
1. Hard Work
2. Thrift
3. Entrepreneurship
Is this the Road To Serfdom and do we really want to proceed down this road?
Should the government have bailed out the buggy whip manufacturers at the turn of the last century?
Some might say let Creative Destruction take place and the economic resources will be reallocated to their most efficent use by the millions of participants in the market.
Was it freedom or Socialism that provided the US with the highest standard of living in the history of human civilization?
All new for 2012, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the mandatory American car so advanced it took $100 billion and an entire Congress to design it. We started with same reliable 7-way hybrid ethanol-biodeisel-electric-clean coal-wind-solar-pedal power plant behind the base model Pelosi, but packed it with extra oomph and the sassy styling pizazz that tells the world that 1974 Detroit is back again -- with a vengeance.
We've subsidized the features you want and taxed away the rest. With its advanced Al Gore-designed V-3 under the hood pumping out 22.5 thumping, carbon-neutral ponies of Detroit muscle, you'll never be late for the Disco or the Day Labor Shelter. Engage the pedal drive or strap on the optional jumbo mizzenmast, and the GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition easily exceeds 2016 CAFE mileage standards. At an estimated 268 MPG, that's a savings of nearly $1800 per week in fuel cost over the 2011 Pelosi.
Even with increased performance we didn't skimp on safety. With 11-point passenger racing harnesses, 15-way airbags, and mandatory hockey helmet, you'll have the security knowing that you could survive a 45 MPH collision even if the GTxi SS/Rt were capable of that kind of illegal speed.
But the changes don't stop there. Sporty mag-style hubcaps and an all-new aggressive wedge shape designed by CM's Chief Stylist Ted Kennedy slices through the wind like an omnibus spending bill. It even features an airtight undercarriage to keep you and a passenger afloat up to 15 minutes -- even in the choppy waters of a Cape Cod inlet. Available a rainbow of color choices to match any wardrobe, from Harvest Avocado to French Mustard.
Inside, a luxurious all-velour interior designed by Barney Frank features thoughtful appointments like in-dash condom dispenser and detachable vibrating shift knob. A special high capacity hatchback holds up to 300 aluminum cans, meaning fewer trips to the redemption center. And the standard 3 speaker Fairness ActoPhonic FM low-band sound system means you'll never miss a segment of NPR again.
Best of all, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt is made right here in the U.S.A. by fully card-checked unionized workers and Detroit's famous visionary jet-set managers. Even if you don't own one, you can enjoy the patriotic satisfaction that you're supporting the high wages, good benefits, and generous political donations that are once again making the American car industry the envy of the world.
But why not buy one anyway? With an MSRP starting at only $629,999.99, it's affordable too. Don't forget to ask about dealer incentives, rebates, tax credits, and wealth redistribution plans for customers from dozens of qualifying special interest groups. Plus easy-pay financing programs from Fannie Mae.
There is more
What are you talking about? Both China and India were closed economies (and - if we go that far back in history - so was Japan). It was the US who forced them open, with the "Capitalism is good" mantra.
Now that they compete with US, and parts of US economy cannot compete with them, you want to change the rules?
In the last five years, US has completely lost its moral high ground. I live in Japan, and remember the sermons that US preached to the Japanese Govt in later 90s about how to let the "weak go under" for the greater good, and now we have US bailing out anything that is still breathing.
So please, please - Take any line of argument, but THAT
Be a nice yard ornament for Mrs. Tired Old Dave eh?
Libertarians would probably say that's your problem I got mine go find yours somewhere else. Modern Society is represented by interdependency. We don't build our own log cabins, dig wells, kill and butcher animals, plant crops, fix the ague with homemade cures, gin our cotton and weave on our looms.
The last bubble started after ww2, capitalists rebuilt the axis while our infrastructure, save Ike's interstates patterned after the PA Turnpike and the autobahn, was left to wither on the vine.
The final deregulation provided for our comsumptive societal system to be fed with borrowed international money. The CN$ climbed and retreated, the yen has just climbed and retreated a little. Unless all world currencies can be debased like the fiat dollar, perhaps hyperinflation is around the corner and everyone will be gnashing their teeth. Did you get yours while the gettin was good.
So what harm is a little loan compared to the trillions wasted on armament. There was a shortage of ammo not too long ago. Without a textile industry where are fatigues sewn. Hardness strengths on bolts that are true, weak Brazilian steel, and a veteran of LBJ/Nixon's war recently saw the label on a package of his underwear - made in Vietnam.
I am still laughing from your fantastic post,
To jpf re post number 707.
My suggestion is not that our manufacturing industry would disappear but would be reallocated to more competent hands in the form of bankruptcy.
We have many very successful manufacturing companies such as:
1. Deere and co.
2. Catepiller
3. Cummings
4. Emerson
Etc. Etc.
Unfortunately we have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world at 39 percent. Combined with various state tax it is the highest.
So if we want more manufacturing companies to locate in the US we must be competitive from a tax standpoint.
Some former communist countries have corporate tax rates as low as 12.5%
So if you and I want to build a manufacturing plant, how can we compete with companies domiciled in Hong Kong, Ireland, Russia, Panama etc?
The end game of bailing out or socialism is bankruptcy which would not put us in a position of military strength.
One possible solution is FairTax.org which could make the US a Super Nova of prosperity.
Our companies are competing with Countries. Currency manipulation, uneven trade policies and looser labor rules undermine the U.S. You cannot hold American companies to costly standards and then allow other countries to dump product on your market while they set up barriers to U.S. products in their own markets.
I don't care that you live in Japan or about the sermons that the U.S. gave. The bottom line is that countries compete with the U.S. because we make it easy for them to undercut our industries. For you to insinuate that the U.S. cannot compete is maddening and just wrong. No company can compete with countries. The U.S. Government needs to grow a set and level the playing field.
And don't talk about the U.S. bailing out industry when Japan in #1 when it comes to corporate welfare. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Maybe your neighbor has the anvil, and your other neighbors...
Better Half and I were offered to live in a cooler red state decades ago because of our organic food interests...
"It's Hammer Time"
http://www.star-telegram.com/ed_wallace/story/1040507.html
Hammer
This habit of misinforming us is hardly new. Early this year, all of the so-called experts were being quoted daily saying that the primary cause justifying crude’s ever-higher prices was oil supply problems. But that just didn’t align with facts that anyone could easily find: Oil was plentiful – while demand was falling worldwide.
I don't agree with all he says. He does point out some interesting facts that are left out of mainstream reporting.
My very first job out of college (going back 20+ years) was doing computer programming for the local Fisher Body plant. Pretty rudimentary stuff compared to the sophistication of robotic car building today.
Anyway, we stamped and formed body panels and "T-tops" for the then Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Camaro/Firebird, and made sunroofs for Cadillacs...as well as sundry little connectors and pieces to bolt the panels to the frames. All those panels were then shipped about 20 minutes away to an assembly plant, which turned out finished Camaros and Firebirds (and to other assembly plants for Montes/Grand Prix and Cadillacs).
Those plants are long gone. The idea of quality "Body by Fisher" lost its luster. They're little more than a memory, now.
http://www.insideautomotive.com/
"President-elect Barack Obama's advisers said Sunday automakers must convince Congress that they have a plan to return to profitability before they can get $25 billion in emergency bridge loans -- and that they should fly commercial."
Detroit News
Even though a blue person in a not so red state anymore, would love to have been a fly on the wall in that white house meeting. And red blue doesn't really matter. Leger demaine? the path has been shown. First George I and then the British PM, new world order, and the PM wanted the middle east and china to pay for our part. Will we get one amero for one or three or five or more greenbacks. An earlier post used the word "serf" pretty much nailed it. I still believe it is all about submission. Keep a jet plane but don't fly on a little plane-important people have had accidents.