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Buying a Car During the Credit Crunch
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Sounds like you worked at real grinder tell them what they want to hear store.
Thats almost laughable.
How long was you career at the $1000 minimum, bank says you have to buy the $2300 warranty store?
There has neve been a better time to buy a car then right now. Dealers want them off the lot and off the floor plan.
Its not illegal you get slapped on the wrist, its illegal you go to the Federal Pen if the FTC audits/inspects you and finds out your doing it.
I raise hell with our SM's if they tell a customer a payment with a product added in.
I don't need the help, hell the first thing I do is show you a menu that tells you the base payment and the rate before I even mention a Service Contract
Packing payments is when you tell a customer that a payment is $550 and that includes a warranty and a GAP contract.
That leads a customer to believe that they are getting the warranty and GAP included in the cost of the car and that they are not paying extra for them.
You are lumping 99% of the car business w/ less than 1% of offenders.
So, unless you have proof that the majority of car salespeople do in fact lie to their customers I would retire that tired old cliche.
I hate to have to defend my repuation because of those previous to me in a market that I had nothing to do with 15, 20 years ago. Today in most any retail business it is the consumers market and the consumer's ballgame. With all of the laws that are designed to protect the consumer, there is not much room for a lie to be told.
Often what the customer percieves as a lie from their salesperson is in all actuality an uneducated untrained salesperson. Granted, we all wish that we can get an expert professional as a retail shopper whether it in the auto industry or otherwise, but realistically this will never be the case.
Thank you for your eloquence volvomax. Kudos to you.
You've got to be joking? From my experiences it is not rare at all, not common... but not uncommon either. Most of the "lies" are hidden as so called "mistakes" though, which can't be proven by the consumer. They've got the particular model you want on the lot, options, finance rate, mileage, price... etc. etc. etc.
It would be to the industry's advantage to require Continuing Education courses for renewing that state license.
The primary course would include knowledge of the state code pertaining to car sales.
Other courses would include Mechanics, Finance, Customer Relations, Management Duties et al.
The first year would require a minimum of 15 hours class room course, followed by an exam at the end of each session.
The salesman would have to pass the 15 hours by certfication and submit that Certificate with his renewal app to the state on or before his birthday every year.
Until the above is in effect, he is less than a professional and more of a sales associate.
-ray
"Thats almost laughable.
How long was you career at the $1000 minimum, bank says you have to buy the $2300 warranty store?
There has never been a better time to buy a car then right now. Dealers want them off the lot and off the floor plan. "
Here I will back up some one actually in the know. You can cut any deal you want right now that yield's a profit to the dealership. No matter how small. There has never been a better opportunity to buy a new car than this. If you are in need ,waiting will be a mistake, this is the season of your prowess.
That depends on where you're from. Here in Central Florida it's very easy to find a sales person like that. Just listen to the screamer ads with ridiculous promises on TV and you'll find one. On just my last buying experience one dealer wouldn't honor the advertised price on their very own website. They said they were not responsible for a clerical error. So I hope you can understand why some buyers feel the way we do.
You are lumping 99% of the car business w/ less than 1% of offenders.
So, unless you have proof that the majority of car salespeople do in fact lie to their customers I would retire that tired old cliche.
No, not at all, I never said anything like that. If I had to come up with a percentage of local dealers here, I'd say about one third are still old style and that's based on my most recent buying experience.
Don't get me wrong, I have had outstanding buying experiences, the guys all got perfect CSI scores from me. They did try like heck to bump me, but it was professionally done with mutual respect. I've always given these folks the first chance for my repeat business.
"If you want to go thru the BK process to get 'specialized' attention while buying a vehicle that's certainly a valid option. It might have far reaching consequnces though. "
I'm sorry, I am very forgiving. But can we hear how that +$100 oil makes sense since you drive a fuel efficient vehicle. other wise ( busted) please carry on, in the kindest manner imaginable. Inquiring minds want to know how you dare insinuate when your basic premise is so wrong. Meant in the kindest manner possible.Btw it's through.
Write a complete sentence in a well-constructed paragraph and I'll reply. Eliminate any innuendo's and just pose a clear question.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
The way your posts are structured does make them difficult to read duke. I suggest putting whoever you are quoting in italic text, located just above the emotorcons. Then separate your quoted italic text and what your reply is by starting a new paragraph. Then the rest is grammar 101, paragraphs, periods, commas, complete sentences.
Immaterial if the sales person lies? Surely you jest.
As to the doc fees and other junk pre-printed on the invoice, at least the buyer is aware of it. Fair game if the buyer is not educated.
Lying though is all on the seller's head. :mad:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Not open this can of worms, but customers do PLENTY of lying.
"No, my car's never been in an accident"
"Don't worry about my credit,it's excellent"
" You competitor will give me X more for my trade"
So let's not pretend that dealers are always the problem.
In fact, I would submit that most instances where a customer believes a dealer is lying is due to the ignorance of the customer.
I've had people tell me that I have rebates I don't have or thst they KNOW their car is worth what it clearly isn't.
Lying only works if you let the other party get away with it.
There are 3 things to remember when buying a car.
Remeber these and you can't go wrong.
1 There is no such thing as a free lunch.
2 Make sure you get everything in writing
3 If you feel unsure or uncomfortable WALK AWAY.
The trade is appraised sight-unseen at $2500 for an 8 y.o. with 88,000 miles as being in good shape. In fact the next day when it's brought in the ABS light is on ( 'it was too expensive to fix it' ), the tires are bald, the O/S rearview mirror is broken and one of the front doors is broken. It's not a $2500 vehicle it's a $1000 vehicle.
The POI shows $3600 monthly gross whereas on the credit app the borrower had stated $5500 monthly gross with the loan being approved on this income level. ( 'What's the problem? On every other loan in the past I always stated $5500. )
For those of you NOT in the business this occurs very very often. In some cultures this pattern of misrepresentation is simply part of the negotiation and it's perfectly acceptable to lie. Caveat Emptor to the extreme.
And I will also repeat myself that sales persons who lie are in greater numbers than what you've posted and that is based on my own personal experience here in central Florida.
So I'll end my part of this discussion by saying that customers and sales persons who lie deserve each other.
"The way your posts are structured does make them difficult to read duke. I suggest putting whoever you are quoting in italic text, located just above the emotorcons. Then separate your quoted italic text and what your reply is by starting a new paragraph. Then the rest is grammar 101, paragraphs, periods, commas, complete sentences.
Fair criticism and accepted.
jip it's emoticons, not that I'm a stickler.
Now on , to thy who lacks recognition of specious assertations.So how does $100 oil make sense? LOLOL . Pretty fair grammar. And the reply is? Note: this actually requires a reply and not a deflection kdhspyder. Said again most kindly, but inquiring minds want to know.
j: Crap, keep up with the program willya, ok I'll slow it down. jip it's emoticons but I was able to understand your point. Hell maybe they do call them emotorcons in this forum. That would be stretching correct grammar for the sake of relevance but I still get the point. Accept must I; Yodaism
...
Hell maybe they do call them emotorcons in this forum. That would be stretching correct grammar for the sake of relevance but I still get the point.
Wrong. It IS Emotorcons so the grammar is correct and unstretched. The SM you see attached to "Emotorcons" in the link below stands for Service Mark which means that it is a pending trademark. The jipster is quite correct in his usage of the term. :shades:
In any case, I'm not sure I see the relevance to buying a car during the credit crunch of grammar and whatever it was that you are attempting to say in your message. Not that I am a stickler but ... :P
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
In the normal wold it is called a lie. For some reason in the confines of a car dealership it is called negotiations.
I guess I "lie" to customers every day if you really want to split hairs.
Customer: Whats the best rate you can get me?
Me: I don't know till I submit the deal to the bank
Now technically I know what the best rate is if he meets all the parameters so I guess I just lied.
Customer: Whats the lowest price you will sell me a service contract for?
Me: I don't know sir, come on in my office and lets talk about about it.
Another lie, I know what the cheapest service contract we have is but before I price him one I want to ask him about his driving habits and what he wants covered and then price the VSC to him with profit on it.
So I guess from that perspective I am going for a trip down the river Styx when my time comes
That's not lying. You may know the answer if all the parameters are met but there is no mileage in saying you'll qualify for x% and then finding out that one of the parameters is not met and that the interest rate will be y%. Your answer is really the short version to save time and is not to deliberately mislead. I would find that acceptable.
I think we all can agree that the current system to buying a car is confrontational and we all wish there was a way to setup a no-haggle system where the dealer gets a fair profit and we can shop dealers based on customer service. We all know it's not going to happen as long as we have as many car dealerships that we have and they are owned by individuals rather than the manufacturer.
For a big purchase like this, the customer needs to do their homework before starting negotiations. there are too many websites, books and articles out there on car buying and the negotiation process for someone to claim ignorance. Unfortunately, people don't understand if the salesman is being deceptive or unclear in his answers, ask for another salesman or simply walk out. Trust me, that is a very powerful tool because that salesman will have to explain to his manager why a potential buyer suddenly left the dealership.
I did this when we purchased our 1994 Accord. I wanted to see clearly on a piece of paper how much they were giving me for my trade (1989 Ford Tempo, yeah I was pushing it) and how much was the price of the car. the salesman kept combining the trade with the discount. I gave him one last chance. He did it again. I stood up, told my wife we are leaving, and walked out of the dealership. Shocked my wife! The salesman called the next morning at 9:15 am and apologized. We finished the negotiations later that day the way I wanted, negotiating the trade separate from the purchase of the car. I'm sure they made a profit on the deal but I was happy with the price and the trade., so win-win. They even beat the financing I secured at my credit union.
For some reason, when we get in car dealerships, people forget that it is their money and they have the power. If you don't understand the contract, don't sign it. Nothing wrong with asking to sleep on it and then asking a friend to explain it to you.
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"In any case, I'm not sure I see the relevance to buying a car during the credit crunch of grammar and whatever it was that you are attempting to say in your message. Not that I am a stickler but "
My apologies sir, But I judge your post out of line. Way out of line.
Please defend the sentence structure below :link title
There is of course no credit crunch of grammar nor is there a credit crunch of mean spiritedness. There is only a credit crunch. If you indeed require an explanation of "what I was attempting to say in my message " I will comply in the most simplistic terms available with stick figures and arrows to indicate motion.
Note :humor. Sidenote: K speaks great wisdom but sadly some ego's seem to have gotten in the way.
Apologies gladly accepted. It should never go one way. Waiting...
Try a private email to richard64 for enlightenment on sentence structure. We're sticking to credit crunch issues here.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
October auto sales may have hit two-decade lowOctober 31, 2008 7:22 PM ET All Thomson Reuters newsDETROIT (Reuters) - U.S. auto sales are expected to plunge to the lowest levels of the year in October and possibly the slowest running rate in two decades, with no certainty of when consumer confidence will return.
The U.S. automakers, struggling to preserve their shrinking pools of cash as they fight for survival, are poised to post sales declines of up to 40 percent, with the overall market sagging potentially to levels not seen since the 1980s, when the United States had 60 million fewer residents.
General Motors Corp, Ford Motor Co and Chrysler LLC are expected to lead the U.S. sales declines, but all six of the top sellers -- including Toyota Motor Corp, Honda Motor Co Ltd and Nissan Motor Co Ltd -- were expected to report lower sales.
High gas prices blunted U.S. auto sales earlier in 2008, but the plunge in consumer confidence -- which hit the lowest level in the four decades as the Conference Board measured it -- has pushed out expectations for a recovery beyond next year.
U.S. October auto sales were "pretty much as advertised," Ford chief sales analyst George Pipas said on Friday, adding that the seasonally adjusted annual rate would likely be around 11 million to 12 million vehicles in October.
But Ford executives hope that government response to the credit crisis would improve the overall retail atmosphere.
"There is a lot of action being taken by the Federal government, by the Federal Reserve, and by the Congress and we are hopeful that will stimulate demand," said Mark Fields, Ford's president of the Americas.
In a bright spot, Ford is confident its retail share of the U.S. auto market in October will rise to the highest in two years.
Barclays Capital analyst Brian Johnson expects a 39 percent drop in sales for the Detroit-based automakers in October, which was marked by low consumer confidence and "particularly poor showroom traffic."
"We believe that the pressure on auto sales from limited credit availability is mounting," Johnson said, adding it appeared dealers were facing a 10 percent to 15 percent headwind from the tighter lending practices.
A BAD MONTH ... NOW A DEAL?
Overall, U.S. light vehicle sales were expected to be in a range of 11 million to 11.3 million vehicles, according to analysts and industry executives -- a sharp decline from 16.04 million last October and 12.5 million last month.
Overshadowing the U.S. sales figures, key early indicators that economists use to gauge consumer spending and the broad health of the U.S. economy, are the merger talks between GM and Chrysler parent Cerberus Capital Management, which could result in the sale of all or part of Chrysler to GM.
Automakers pushed in October to tell customers that financing was still available despite the credit market turmoil and, in some cases, put thousands of dollars on the hood of slower-selling models to try to clinch the sale.
Toyota, which led GM in the third quarter as the world's largest automaker by sales volume, offered zero percent financing across 11 models in an effort to boost demand. Toyota's U.S. sales were down 10 percent through September.
Nissan said on Friday it was offering interest free loans on five popular models, including Altima and Sentra sedans.
Nissan expects a boost in sales in November and December from the loan incentive, which runs through January 5.
Some dealers have said consumers were having a tough time closing new car deals because many lenders tightened their standards or had completely pulled out of the auto loans market.
GMAC, earlier this month, announced it would offer auto loans only to consumers who have high credit scores, a decision that is expected to hurt GM's sales further.
On an unadjusted basis, Edmunds.com expects GM sales to drop 40.7 percent, Chrysler to drop 38.1 percent and Ford to drop 34.7 percent. It expects a 29.2 percent drop at Nissan, a 17.2 percent slide at Honda and a 15.5 percent fall at Toyota.
"Looking ahead, November is traditionally one of the worst sales months of the year and December is usually one of the best," Edmunds.com executive director of industry analysis Jesse Toprak said.
"If the election and other variables don't have a significant impact on auto sales through December, we are looking at an annual total of about 13.6 million units."
Looks like a take no prisoners market ahead. No brand name exempt. Hang tough salesmen.
We'll endure.
Traditionally December is our 6th best sales month of the year. That statement used to be true for us years ago before allot of tax laws changed. Nowadays there are just to many distractions in December with the Holidays.
No, of course not. After all, buyers are liars, right? I would assume that to an experienced salesperson buyer's lies would be easier to see through since the salesperson does this every day.
I would say that most of the examples you give would either be easy to detect or honest errors( I just read a poster who only found out his car had been in an accident when he went to trade it).
Saying that another dealer will beat your deal might be a bit tacky but falls within the give and take of the buying process.
"...most instances where a customer believes the dealer is lying is due to the ignorance of the customer..."
I don't doubt it. If I'm talking to a salesman and what he's saying doesn't jive with what I think is true, I'll pause the transaction until I can verify the information. Sometimes I'm wrong...sometimes the salesman is stretching the truth.
In the end it is the salesman job to create a positive impression of his product. This is the classic "create value" role. If he tells me that "all the girls will fall in your lap" if I buy this car I'm OK with that. If he tells me that "the grinding noise in the transmission is normal for this model" that's not OK.
The difference is the degree. :lemon:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
If I was selling anything to that guy, the only thing he would be riding would be the bottom of my boot. :mad:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
In the last 24 hours I have received four phone calls from very rude individuals who each have given me a different story as to why I was late $90.00. I responded to the first call prior to researching the issue and stated I would send the amount immediately. I was then called three more times after that and was told they did not have an automated system to record the first calls.
I asked to speak to a supervisor and was given the name of an individual who does not even exist in the company. I was given a fax number and faxed a copy of the check to that number. When I went to call the person I had faxed it too I was told he did not exist in the company. Eventually after four more calls I found that in fact the fax was received and the issue was being researched.
Conclusion undoubtedly the most rude, arrogant and dishonest company I have ever done business with. I personally would not buy any product from Ford Motor company in the future including Ford, Volvo, Jaguar, Lincoln etc. If you do I would strongly recommend not financing through either Ford credit or Mazda.
While the financial future of this company in tenuous they have decided to abuse the customer probably as a strategy to maintain a dwindling cash flow. I also will not do business with the dealer Scott Mazda in Allentown PA.
I have filed a report with the FTC re the harassment by Ford Motor Company by telephone. The number of calls especially given the amount was excessive. The manner of the call agents varies from passive aggressive to out right hostel. These are cruel nasty people. They seem to find pleasure in harassing their consumers.
I never had a finance issue but dealt with them on mechanical issues (the famous head gasket on the 3.8, melting transmissions and such). They not only did not do anything but were abusive as all get out.
Ya that whole giving correct information is a real [non-permissible content removed] some times.
That might happen for an auto loan, but never for something significant like a mortgage. Wouldn't THAT be stupid!
she wants an escape hybrid and there aren't any of those to be found around here.
And I see from your story that they even treat people who have done nothing wrong that way. I have had a few friends who won't make the mistake twice of financing a vehicle through Mazda. It is sort of like the Discover Card of the auto finance world. :sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So yes, you probably could have got a great rate later. But price? With dealers hunkering down and expecting much lower volume, I think the response will more often than not to be to shoot for more profit margin on each individual sale than when times were flush.
PS Anyone know what happened to the 25 posts that just seem to be missing from this thread??
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I came to this forum after reading a comment from GM in which an executive said that sales were unsustainably low.
I would like to point out to GM that 50 years ago GM calculated a 3-year replacement cycle for every car they sold. They were right. Unfortunately, GM pushed quality down to match the cycle. It was easy for resurgent foreign competitors to lure customers away with reliable cars even if they cost more than GM's offerings. GM responded by drawing quality up to levels to match foreign competition. In another unfortunately unexpected outcome, GM's capital structure depends on the same old 3-year replacement cycle. The replacement cycle is now closer to 6 years, and GM is starved for new cash.
The good news is that GM quality is now competitive with everyone in the world and GM will survive this market retrenchment.
I purchased a new Chevrolet Malibu in each of 2003 and 2004. I also purchased a new Dodge Intrepid in 2004, and a used Ford Focus in 2004. All four of these vehicles are running well and are quite dependable. Looking forward, I have no intention of purchasing another car that runs on internal combustion of fossil fuels alone. The first and second generation of hybrid vehicles are interesting. I'd buy a Ford Escape Hybrid if I just had to get new wheels. Lacking an emergent need, I will wait until the 3rd generation of hybrid cars such as the Aptera Type-1h and the Chevrolet Volt become available before making another purchase.
"GM's capital structure depends on the same old 3-year replacement cycle. The replacement cycle is now closer to 6 years, and GM is starved for new cash."
Though with $20 billion in cash, at $2 billion a month that means 10 months at current rates.
They need help obviously. Yes we can ! They survive but have doubts about Chrysler
( Cerebus) Merge with Renault ? Oh the shame.
Just a thought...