Please note: this only pertains to early build V6's
******URGENT******
On April 9, 2003, Toyota filed a Defect Information Report (DIR) with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) regarding the fuel pulsation damper on approximately 29,500 4Runner V6 vehicles, with the intent to initiate a Special Service Campaign.
On certain early 2003 Model Year 4Runner V6 vehicles, the fuel pulsation damper, located on the fuel rail, may have been improperly assembled. If the pulsation damper fails, a small amount of fuel may leak onto the exhaust manifold. In the worst case, this may result in an engine compartment fire if a heat or ignition source is present.
As required by Federal Regulation, dealers are not to deliver any vehicle acquired in their inventory, which is involved in a safety recall, until the necessary repairs have been performed. A dealer package will be sent by Priority Mail on April 11, 2003. The dealer package will include technical instructions, parts ordering information and reimbursement procedures as well as the Vehicle Identification Numbers (VINs) of vehicles which our records indicate may still be in each dealer’s inventory.
Another Dealer Communication will be mailed in late April which will include owner name and address information in preparation for the owner notification. The owner notification will commence in early May, consistent with parts availability.
In the event you are contacted by a vehicle owner, who reports fuel leakage from the fuel pulsation damper, please continue to conduct the appropriate repairs to the vehicles. Owner notifications
2003 Model Year Toyota 4Runner Fuel Pulsation Damper Q&A
Q1: What is the condition?
A1: On certain early 2003 Model Year 4Runner V6 vehicles, the fuel pulsation damper, located on the fuel rail, may have been improperly assembled. If the pulsation damper fails, a small amount of fuel may leak. In the worst case, this may result in an engine compartment fire if a heat or ignition source is present.
Q2: What is the cause of this condition?
A2: During the assembly process, the two metal halves of the fuel pulsation damper assembly are crimped together. Due to an incorrect crimping procedure, the diaphragm inside the fuel pulsation damper may have been damaged.
Q3: Are there any warnings that this condition has occurred?
A3: No, there are no specific warnings for when this condition will occur.
Q4: Which and how many vehicles are involved?
A4: Only 2003 Model Year 4Runner V6 vehicles are involved. There are approximately 29,500 vehicles in the U.S.
Q5: What is the production period of the affected vehicles?
A5: The affected Toyota 4Runner vehicles were produced between October 2002, and March 2003.
Q6: Are there any other Toyota or Lexus vehicles involved?
A6: No, this condition only affects certain early 2003 Model Year 4Runner V6 vehicles.
Q7: How many incidents of this condition have been reported?
A7: There have been 17 reported cases of this condition in the affected 4Runner V6 vehicles.
Q8: Have there been any accidents reported?
A8: There have been no reported cases of accidents related to this condition.
Q9: What is Toyota going to do?
A9: Owners of the involved vehicles will receive a Special Service Campaign notification by first class mail. Toyota dealers will replace the fuel pulsation damper at NO COST to the vehicle owner.
Q10: How long will the repair take?
A10: The repair may take up to approximately thirty minutes. However, depending upon the dealer’s work schedule, it may be necessary to make the vehicle available for a longer period of time.
Q11: What should an owner do if they experience the condition?
A11: Owners are requested to contact their local Toyota dealer for diagnosis, and if necessary, repair.
It seems that the original vehicle I ordered got screwed up and the order disappeared. About 5 weeks ago they realized it and reordered one. It seems that they somehow had one at the port that was not yet allocated so they sent it to my dealer. Something doesn't seem right though, because first the interior that I ordered was tan and this one was gray. Second, it came in without the air suspension but did have the Xreas. The dealer told me that they ar temporarily not makin the air suspension. After some serious thinking, I decided that waiting over 4 months was enough. I am taking the one that came in. I hope that I won't miss the air suspension but my patience has run it's course. I will be picking it up next week. It seems that the big holdup was the navigation. I could have had one a long time ago if I didn't want it. I found out all of this just this past week.
I have a 03 V8 Ltd., and live in the MD suburbs. I have experienced the sulphur odor from time-to-time. I can be quite overpowering. I've been working through different brands of gas.
I'm on my first full tank of Amoco Premium. It seems to have reduced the problem quite a bit. Amoco claims it has lower sulphur content.
I'll keep you informed if it continues to improve.
If not, I'll work through with the Maryland Lemon Law and see what happens.
I don't object to Toyota engineering, as has been noted any complex product can have some unexpected problems. The issue of greater concern is Toyota's reaction experienced by some of people on this board. Better to admit you have a problem and are working on it than to force customers to take more extreme action through Lemon Law and other legal remedies.
I've been getting high 18s or low 19s with combo city/highway driving. One tank I burned was mostly on mountain Interstate (I-70) and I got a little over 20. I definetly like my V6.
And Martin thinks it has something to do with the recall and not that most people have a life that exist beyond an Edmunds message board on Friday night. Do you actually think the recall validates any of your commments?? No, but it does crack me up it's on the V6 and not the V8
And by the way "jaredmsd" understands perfectly "what is going on"
I just checked the NHTSA site and there was not a listing for any recall or defect investigation. Can someone provide a link for the recall??
Also they have a section for consumer complaints. There are a total of (4) that concern engine/engine exhaust. That's 4 out of how many vehicles. I would think even if you did not know about the NHTSA and your had a "severe" sulfur smell problem you would do the research and file a complaint, unless there really is not much of a problem in the first place.
...for all your input on the hesitation issue. Was not aware of the "drive by wire" technology. Not sure if it's something for me...I've been driving a sports car for the last 3 yrs. Not saying the Runner should have sport car qualities, but I want it to go when I say go! LOL! (its proven that to me already with the test drive) Although, this isn't what I was describing initially, I did learn from it. I do remember putting the pedal to the metal on the test drive with a delay, but I just thought it was the car's natural response time. This was more like it was starving for gas. Hmmmmmm, I dunno? Cliffy's right, I didn't describe it well.
Cliffy, unfortunately I do have a lead foot! Darn it! I get at least one ticket a year. Thank God for defensive driving! Thanks again all!
I tow a boat and the only time I notice the lag is when towing. Any other time, the lag is not a concern. I agree that it is a pain but it is one that is brought on by Toyota chasing more and more stringent environmental regulations.
I have a 2003 SR5 v/6 and as for as the recall it may involve mine(is that the build date on the driver door frame?)At least they fess up when they find a problem. I also have a GM product, a Silverado and they would probably say a gas leak is "normal" or can not duplicate like there cold start knocking engine and faulty ABS system.
"Aside from displaying your defensiveness, neither of you have proved much else"
There are 4 potential complaints on the NHTSA web site concerning the sulfur smell. You have ZERO data to backup this as a widespread complaint. You are starting to remind me of the Iraqi Information official during the middle of last week. There are 3 or 4 people that have complained about this problem on this message board. It sounds like more but since you post just about every day with this problem it really is not.
I proved from the NHTSA data it is a very small problem. Supply some data, not opinion that contradicts this. If not just leave it alone.
I've been getting high 18s or low 19s with combo city/highway driving.
Please don't take offense but I did get a chuckle out of that! With a little refinement one could also say something like I've been getting high 18.5s or low 18.6s with.... ;-)
The point is that the "standard deviation" of gas mileage is certainly well above 1 mpg so high 18.5s and low 18.6s are statistically indistinguishible.
Thanks for the info on the wait time. I ordered mine last week, so I've got a ways to go. I don't know about the air suspension not being made. I have it on the DII I now have. It is useful to me offroading when rock crawling for an increased angle of departure. I did not order it on the Sport 4-Runner as the departure angle is about the same as the DII without it; but, I've heard it is useful for towing, which I don't do. I suppose it would also be useful if you placed a very heavy load near the tailgate, rather than center it, for a level suspension.
Now--How about the NAV system you waited so long for? Does it live up to all the hype? Is it a detailed system throughout the U.S.? I have also ordered the NAV and was told the wait will be worth it.
My wife and I just walked out of a Toyota dealership here. They were complete jerks or really the sales manager was. Actually the saleswoman was very nice. Anyway, gonna vent now.
Background: We've been testdriving and researching for a couple of weeks now so we know what we want and how much it should cost.
Setting: 4:00pm today. They close at 5.
Scene: After taking entirely too long to appraise our trade in and do a dealer search for the exact vehicle we want, the saleswoman gives us a breakdown. Sticker of 38896 - 1000 for trade - 5000 down is 32896 and then she broke it down into monthly payments. To this I say,"So your offer is sticker?"
Anyway we go through a couple of iterations of me making wholesale + 2% then + 4% and they offering crummy replys.
Finally, they brought out their invoice sheet to prove that their cost was 35.1 as opposed to the 33.4 (w/ $400 dealer cash) that it actually is. Here's the funny part. Holdback was itemized along w/ everything else. We tried to explain that they were double counting it and then they got rude. After a few choice comments on our part we left. On leaving, I told them that I have an offer for that same truck at 35.1.
I have run into this stuff before. Yes, Toyota makes great cars, but why do dealers act like they're doing you a favor while screwing you on the deal?
It's just frustrating. And I still am amazed that the guy was so rude. For anyone interested, this was at C.F. Schwarz in Dover, Delaware. Be ready to fight if you want a good deal. I guess I was expecting too much anyway. They have a $200 "acid rain protectant" add on included on all of their stock. Too funny.
At least you realized they were trying to stick it to you. I am helping a friend of my moms who bought a Mitsubishi Montero(over 72 months) but they didn't buy her leased Blazer out from her. They "promised" they would when they got the buyout figure on Monday. They recommended she just turn the leased vehicle in. So she signed the papers and now has two SUV's.
Try Edmunds buying service, carsdirect.com or email area Toyota dealer internet sales managers.
Actually the funniest dealer add on is at the Hyndai (sp?) dealership here. While driving Kia Sephia I noticed that there was a $1500 add on that was called something like market adjustment. The salesmen basicly said that was their markup. I was amazed. Actually I should have asked him what MSRP stoop for, but I hated the car and wanted out of there ASAP.
Thanks for the tips on the 4runner. Actually I have been using the online services and calling other dealerships. That's how I have my offers to date.
I posted about unbearable wind noise with one rear widow open and it is true it is bad for me.Also about trim loose on top and it is true.Now i have owned many 4x4 units including jeeps since 1946 and i am a certified mechanic and ran my oun shop for many years and have no axe to grind but i and many shop owners like toyota products as the have been VERY reliable compared to other makes.I also use my 4x4 off road as i have a hunting cabin 9 miles off road all dirt and rock and it is steep and rough.My 97 4 runner did not break once.if you do not use your 4x4 off road a crossover will be best.I need low range that the 03 has.I think it is one of the best units made for rough usage as it is truck like body on frame not unitized like most of others.Now these things i posted on wind noise and minor trim do not affect reliability whitch to me is the most important consideration on my decesion.You the buyer should buy the best unit for you and take oter posts with a grain of salt and after you use your SUV on and off roads you will know if it will hold up to YOUR usage.fred.
Does anyone have any strong feelings about engine performance in the v8 regarding premium vs. regular fuel? I don't tow anything, and I drive in normal temp, normal altitude mainly.
I don't know if I am imagining it, but the premium fuel seems to get more power to the engine at lower revs, it seems like with regular the engine tach pushes up more quickly...am I imagining this?
I want to treat my engine with kid gloves and if it really wants to run on premium that's fine, but I just was wondering if anyone has noticed what the differences in performances are between the fuel grades.
I did consider the V6, but it is virtually not available with the Limited...Here in the Midwest the Toyota dealers have pre-determined what their customers should drive and simply not ordering Limited with either V6 or the Nav Sys...I want to get a good deal and therefore do not want to special order one (and pay a premium).
Also a previous posting regarding V6 recall is kind of scary...it is a brand new engine anyway, if i were you i would way for them to work out the bugs...
btw, what other vehicles are you considering? Mind sharing some of your insights?
And your point? My intent was to give people a general idea of the mileage I've been getting. Some tanks would get 18.5 others may be 19.2 etc. This is a real world range of numbers. This isn't a "refinement" of anything and I didn't know anything about what "standard deviation" was.
Just trying to provide real world info for anybody who is interested. There had been some earlier posts by people who wanted to know what kind of mileage the V6 got.
Been looking real hard at the 4Runner V8 Limiteds. The OEM tires on some are the Dunlop AT20 GrandTrek and others are the Michelin CrossTerrains. Any suggestions or comments? I'm a Michelin man but if these Dunlops are comparable I won't push for a swap. need help.....thanks
First of all I want to thank everyone on this board - particularly folks with different opinion. It is really helpful to hear both sides of the story.
I am shopping for a 2003 Limited V8 4x4, loaded except Rear Air Suspension and Nav Sys. I live in Omaha, NE.
Yesterday I went to a local dealership for my second test drive, after reading postings from Martin (and other folks) about the smell problem with the V8. I have the following observation/experience:
(1) After starting the engine, A/T at Park with brake off, I stepped on the gas - gradually at first, then I floored it. Something unexpected happened - the front/engine compartment vibrated violently when I was flooring the gas. I did this to many other vehicles before and I had never seen that happened. (2) Then, I smelled something funny - something rotten (sort of like the smell of a public restroom in a baseball stadium during the summer.) (3) My wife was standing outside next to the 4Runner and she told me she smelled something very strong. She associated that smell with the exhaust coming out from a 1990 Mirage with a bad oxygen sensor/engine we owned during 1993-5. (4) Then we took the 4Runner for a test drive. The smell went away when the vehicle was moving. (5) In the middle of the test drive, we stopped at a traffic light - A/T at Drive. We detected the smell again, though the smell was not as strong as previously experienced. There was no car in front of us at the stop light.
During the test drive, I rolled all the windows up, and left the air circulation of the H&AC system open (which is what I usually do when I drive.)
Frankly, after reading the recent postings, plus my test drive experience, I am a bit hesitant in going for the 4Runner. I personally like the 4Runner very much - modern/stylish/non-mini-van look, better suit for off-roading (HAC, DAC, Low Range), V8, etc... Unfortunately, the test drive confirms the smell problem.
Considering the fact that I am shoppig for a new SUV to replace a problematic 00' ML320, I am afraid 4Runner will be eliminated from my consideration...
Martin you finally said it all in your last post 5678.beleive nothing you hear and half of what you see.Test drive completly and be sure of your purchase.Fred.
Excellent choice and observation! You are making the right decision. Why take a $30,000 risk on a vehicle that Toyota refuses to stand behind.
Toyota will suffer in sales as people like you diligently explore the evident failures of this first year newly designed production mess. Toyota’s belligerent non-customer service attitude and outrageous solutions regarding the smell problem will eventually cost them.
There is no denying the smell of the V8 model, but some will try.
Test drive thoroughly, but be aware. Problems will not always surface during a test drive. Having an edge knowing what to look for will always help. We all know that applies to most anything we experience in life.
I've been driving my 2003 4Runner V8 since January and had never experienced the "stink" problem.
That is, until the weather warmed up last week and I was driving with the tailgate window open. (I'm a fresh air fiend.) Going up a hill, I was passing another car and I floored the gas. Stink bomb! After 3-4 minutes the stink went away.
To test my theory, I tried flooring the gas again today driving with the tailgate window open and once again set off the stink bomb smell for a few minutes.
I guess I never smelled it because I'm not a speed demon driver.
For those of you who are experiencing the stink problem regularly, do you drive aggressively? If so, you might want to try laying off the jackrabbit starts for a few days to see if that resolves your issue.
For those of you who are thinking of buying a new 4Runner, go on a test drive with your salesperson, roll down the rear window and floor the gas. If the car stinks up, you might be able to negotiate a better price!
BTW, I love my 4Runner! Sometimes my dog has a smelly rear end and I love him, too!
I had an excellent dealer experience. I had done my homework and knew MSRP, Invoice and Edmund's TMV for the 03 4 Runner V-8 Sport. The salesman gave me a non negotiable offer of invoice plus $400. I was happy with the price, no dealer add-ons or extras. I got Blue Book for my 99 Odyssey with 68K miles. I went home with the 4 Runner. I have been happy ever since. Many people complained about Honda dealers. Many of the Honda models are sold at MSRP only. They have waiting lists on the Odyssey, for example, at MSRP. The Honda dealers were seen as arrogant. I had no problems with my dealer, however.
hermantum: I've looked at the pathfinder, Murano, highlander as well as the 4Runner. I chose the 4Runner because it drove great, was more useful and looked better than the other three. Unfortunately, it is also the most expensive. I'm looking for a v6 because I don't need the extra torque and I'm trying to save a buck.
pat84: I'm still hopefull that I'll find a decent dealer. Actually your deal sounds great. Was that their version of invoice or Edmund's?
I smelled it! I was just starting down the road and there it was! I couldn't believe it! Then I realized, well shoot, I'm not driving my 4Runner, I'm sitting in my 1997 Tacoma! Just goes to show you, you never know when those evil people at Toyota will strike! Could you help me start my boycott of the 1997 Tacoma?
I know this post isn't real helpful in your efforts to bring down the evil empire that is Toyota, but I am one of those people who used to care about what you had to say. I no longer care. Your approach has forced me to realize that you may not be what you seem and that what you say is probably not true. If you are not careful, this will backfire and you will lose the support that you have left. You can't honestly think that Toyota hasn't had to deal with people like you before? This approach only alienates Toyota loyalists, the exact bunch of people you need in your corner!
I just called the dealership that had what I wanted. Yes, in exasperation the Schwarz people told me where the truck was. Anyway, I called and guess what, it's a demo. Thanks for telling me that guys. I hate demo's. Someone else gets to drive the car for a few thousand miles and then I'm not offered a break on it. Grr.
I went back and checked. Prices seem to have changed since I bought mine. The invoice I was quoted was 31, 465. That doesn't match Edmunds which is 31,108 now. The dealer I bought at is now showing an invoice of 31,800. All for the exact same vehicle, with destination. (Taxes @ 5%, tags, title, and warranty added up to much more than the 31,865 price. I was back pretty close to MSRP by the time I drove out.) Maybe Toyota's cost has changed, since they are now charging extra for the pleasing aroma. In any case, I was happy with the price and trade in. I was to the good over $3k on what I still owed on the Odyssey and what they gave me on trade in. I know they made money on me, but they have to have to pay the rent and utilities and make a profit. They are convenient and my salesman has sent me a reminder it's been three months, come in for an oil change. I can pass by there on my way home from work.
about this time every year toyota changes their pricing a few hundred dollars. The 4runner did not change though. the biggest change was limited sequoia $700!!!!!
I think differences between Edmund's (and KBB's) invoice and what you see at the dealer may be due to the advertising charge. This varies by locale, but it is charged from the manufacturer to the dealer as part of the invoice. Edmunds and KBB don't tell you what this is.
I found dealers around here pretty consistent on it. For the LTD models I was looking at, dealer advertising was around $800 over the Edmunds/KBB invoice.
People in this area think those fees are just B.S. that we as a dealer have "packed" into our invoice. Like I said in other posts. if you are going to give buyers guidence and figures to negotiate with at least give them all the info.
That it would be more helpful if Edmunds and KBB would include the advertising charge in their info, along with an amount. I found it a bit confusing too, and only sorted it out after talking to the dealer a bit when I was looking for my 4Runner. If I hadn't read on here that there are legitimate advertising charges, I might have thought it BS, too.
Alternatively, manufactuers could just build it into the base invoice of the vehicle, rather than have it be a separate charge. Is there any reason they don't do this?
Steveb84: I called Toyota customer service at 1-800-331-4331 and was told there is no recall on the V6 like your post on 4-11-03.Maybe Toyota knows less than you or whoever posted this notice.Like i said before do not beleive any thing you hear and half of what you see and you will be ok.Even if true it seems like a small thing as no make is 100 percent.Fred.Today is Mon. APRIL 14 2003.12:51 pm.Calif. time.
Fred, just to clear things up, steveb is a reliable source. I'm pretty sure he works at a major Toyota distribution hub of some sorts or a dealer because he can look up the location and availability of 4runners throughout the country, and has done so for me and others in this channel. So i'd say if he says there's a recall, there's a recall. Thanks for double-checking and not believing what you hear though.
Comments
******URGENT******
On April 9, 2003, Toyota filed a Defect Information Report (DIR) with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) regarding the fuel pulsation damper on approximately 29,500 4Runner V6 vehicles, with the intent to initiate a Special Service Campaign.
On certain early 2003 Model Year 4Runner V6 vehicles, the fuel pulsation damper, located on the fuel rail, may have been improperly assembled. If the pulsation damper fails, a small amount of fuel may leak onto the exhaust manifold. In the worst case, this may result in an engine compartment fire if a heat or ignition source is present.
As required by Federal Regulation, dealers are not to deliver any vehicle acquired in their inventory, which is involved in a safety recall, until the necessary repairs have been performed. A dealer package will be sent by Priority Mail on April 11, 2003. The dealer package will include technical instructions, parts ordering information and reimbursement procedures as well as the Vehicle Identification Numbers (VINs) of vehicles which our records indicate may still be in each dealer’s inventory.
Another Dealer Communication will be mailed in late April which will include owner name and address information in preparation for the owner notification. The owner notification will commence in early May, consistent with parts availability.
In the event you are contacted by a vehicle owner, who reports fuel leakage from the fuel pulsation damper, please continue to conduct the appropriate repairs to the vehicles. Owner notifications
2003 Model Year Toyota 4Runner Fuel Pulsation Damper Q&A
Q1: What is the condition?
A1: On certain early 2003 Model Year 4Runner V6 vehicles, the fuel pulsation damper, located on the fuel rail, may have been improperly assembled. If the pulsation damper fails, a small amount of fuel may leak. In the worst case, this may result in an engine compartment fire if a heat or ignition source is present.
Q2: What is the cause of this condition?
A2: During the assembly process, the two metal halves of the fuel pulsation damper assembly are crimped together. Due to an incorrect crimping procedure, the diaphragm inside the fuel pulsation damper may have been damaged.
Q3: Are there any warnings that this condition has occurred?
A3: No, there are no specific warnings for when this condition will occur.
Q4: Which and how many vehicles are involved?
A4: Only 2003 Model Year 4Runner V6 vehicles are involved. There are approximately 29,500 vehicles in the U.S.
Q5: What is the production period of the affected vehicles?
A5: The affected Toyota 4Runner vehicles were produced between October 2002, and March 2003.
Q6: Are there any other Toyota or Lexus vehicles involved?
A6: No, this condition only affects certain early 2003 Model Year 4Runner V6 vehicles.
Q7: How many incidents of this condition have been reported?
A7: There have been 17 reported cases of this condition in the affected 4Runner V6 vehicles.
Q8: Have there been any accidents reported?
A8: There have been no reported cases of accidents related to this condition.
Q9: What is Toyota going to do?
A9: Owners of the involved vehicles will receive a Special Service Campaign notification by first class mail. Toyota dealers will replace the fuel pulsation damper at NO COST to the vehicle owner.
Q10: How long will the repair take?
A10: The repair may take up to approximately thirty minutes. However, depending upon the dealer’s work schedule, it may be necessary to make the vehicle available for a longer period of time.
Q11: What should an owner do if they experience the condition?
A11: Owners are requested to contact their local Toyota dealer for diagnosis, and if necessary, repair.
I don't think this proves anything though. It's just a pain in the neck for this little v6 shopper.
Have a nice night.
I'm on my first full tank of Amoco Premium. It seems to have reduced the problem quite a bit. Amoco claims it has lower sulphur content.
I'll keep you informed if it continues to improve.
If not, I'll work through with the Maryland Lemon Law and see what happens.
I don't object to Toyota engineering, as has been noted any complex product can have some unexpected problems. The issue of greater concern is Toyota's reaction experienced by some of people on this board. Better to admit you have a problem and are working on it than to force customers to take more extreme action through Lemon Law and other legal remedies.
And by the way "jaredmsd" understands perfectly "what is going on"
Also they have a section for consumer complaints. There are a total of (4) that concern engine/engine exhaust. That's 4 out of how many vehicles. I would think even if you did not know about the NHTSA and your had a "severe" sulfur smell problem you would do the research and file a complaint, unless there really is not much of a problem in the first place.
Cliffy, unfortunately I do have a lead foot! Darn it! I get at least one ticket a year. Thank God for defensive driving! Thanks again all!
jg
Read Chidofu's posts.
Peace
I also have a GM product, a Silverado and they would probably say a gas leak is "normal" or can not duplicate like there cold start knocking engine and faulty ABS system.
IMHO
GC
There are 4 potential complaints on the NHTSA web site concerning the sulfur smell. You have ZERO data to backup this as a widespread complaint. You are starting to remind me of the Iraqi Information official during the middle of last week. There are 3 or 4 people that have complained about this problem on this message board. It sounds like more but since you post just about every day with this problem it really is not.
I proved from the NHTSA data it is a very small problem. Supply some data, not opinion that contradicts this. If not just leave it alone.
Please don't take offense but I did get a chuckle out of that! With a little refinement one could also say something like I've been getting high 18.5s or low 18.6s with.... ;-)
The point is that the "standard deviation" of gas mileage is certainly well above 1 mpg so high 18.5s and low 18.6s are statistically indistinguishible.
tidester, host
Now--How about the NAV system you waited so long for? Does it live up to all the hype? Is it a detailed system throughout the U.S.? I have also ordered the NAV and was told the wait will be worth it.
I will let you know. I pick it up next week. Everybody that I talk to says that this is the best Nav out there.
Background:
We've been testdriving and researching for a couple of weeks now so we know what we want and how much it should cost.
Setting: 4:00pm today. They close at 5.
Scene: After taking entirely too long to appraise our trade in and do a dealer search for the exact vehicle we want, the saleswoman gives us a breakdown. Sticker of 38896 - 1000 for trade - 5000 down is 32896 and then she broke it down into monthly payments. To this I say,"So your offer is sticker?"
Anyway we go through a couple of iterations of me making wholesale + 2% then + 4% and they offering crummy replys.
Finally, they brought out their invoice sheet to prove that their cost was 35.1 as opposed to the 33.4 (w/ $400 dealer cash) that it actually is. Here's the funny part. Holdback was itemized along w/ everything else. We tried to explain that they were double counting it and then they got rude. After a few choice comments on our part we left. On leaving, I told them that I have an offer for that same truck at 35.1.
I have run into this stuff before. Yes, Toyota makes great cars, but why do dealers act like they're doing you a favor while screwing you on the deal?
It's just frustrating. And I still am amazed that the guy was so rude. For anyone interested, this was at C.F. Schwarz in Dover, Delaware. Be ready to fight if you want a good deal. I guess I was expecting too much anyway. They have a $200 "acid rain protectant" add on included on all of their stock. Too funny.
Grrr. I just want my 4Runner at a decent price.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Try Edmunds buying service, carsdirect.com or email area Toyota dealer internet sales managers.
Thanks for the tips on the 4runner. Actually I have been using the online services and calling other dealerships. That's how I have my offers to date.
hermantum, have you considered the v6?
I don't know if I am imagining it, but the premium fuel seems to get more power to the engine at lower revs, it seems like with regular the engine tach pushes up more quickly...am I imagining this?
I want to treat my engine with kid gloves and if it really wants to run on premium that's fine, but I just was wondering if anyone has noticed what the differences in performances are between the fuel grades.
I did consider the V6, but it is virtually not available with the Limited...Here in the Midwest the Toyota dealers have pre-determined what their customers should drive and simply not ordering Limited with either V6 or the Nav Sys...I want to get a good deal and therefore do not want to special order one (and pay a premium).
Also a previous posting regarding V6 recall is kind of scary...it is a brand new engine anyway, if i were you i would way for them to work out the bugs...
btw, what other vehicles are you considering? Mind sharing some of your insights?
Steve, Host
Just trying to provide real world info for anybody who is interested. There had been some earlier posts by people who wanted to know what kind of mileage the V6 got.
need help.....thanks
I am shopping for a 2003 Limited V8 4x4, loaded except Rear Air Suspension and Nav Sys. I live in Omaha, NE.
Yesterday I went to a local dealership for my second test drive, after reading postings from Martin (and other folks) about the smell problem with the V8. I have the following observation/experience:
(1) After starting the engine, A/T at Park with brake off, I stepped on the gas - gradually at first, then I floored it. Something unexpected happened - the front/engine compartment vibrated violently when I was flooring the gas. I did this to many other vehicles before and I had never seen that happened.
(2) Then, I smelled something funny - something rotten (sort of like the smell of a public restroom in a baseball stadium during the summer.)
(3) My wife was standing outside next to the 4Runner and she told me she smelled something very strong. She associated that smell with the exhaust coming out from a 1990 Mirage with a bad oxygen sensor/engine we owned during 1993-5.
(4) Then we took the 4Runner for a test drive. The smell went away when the vehicle was moving.
(5) In the middle of the test drive, we stopped at a traffic light - A/T at Drive. We detected the smell again, though the smell was not as strong as previously experienced. There was no car in front of us at the stop light.
During the test drive, I rolled all the windows up, and left the air circulation of the H&AC system open (which is what I usually do when I drive.)
Frankly, after reading the recent postings, plus my test drive experience, I am a bit hesitant in going for the 4Runner. I personally like the 4Runner very much - modern/stylish/non-mini-van look, better suit for off-roading (HAC, DAC, Low Range), V8, etc... Unfortunately, the test drive confirms the smell problem.
Considering the fact that I am shoppig for a new SUV to replace a problematic 00' ML320, I am afraid 4Runner will be eliminated from my consideration...
Any insights?
Tires should be your last consideration. Please read my previous posts. The smell from the V8 model is unbearable!
Test-drive the vehicle of your choice thoroughly! If you choose to take the risk and purchase one of these stink machines, there will be no recourse.
Peace
Excellent choice and observation! You are making the right decision. Why take a $30,000 risk on a vehicle that Toyota refuses to stand behind.
Toyota will suffer in sales as people like you diligently explore the evident failures of this first year newly designed production mess. Toyota’s belligerent non-customer service attitude and outrageous solutions regarding the smell problem will eventually cost them.
There is no denying the smell of the V8 model, but some will try.
I am glad I was able to help you. Good luck!
Peace
Test drive thoroughly, but be aware. Problems will not always surface during a test drive. Having an edge knowing what to look for will always help. We all know that applies to most anything we experience in life.
Good luck Fred!
Peace
Peace
That is, until the weather warmed up last week and I was driving with the tailgate window open. (I'm a fresh air fiend.) Going up a hill, I was passing another car and I floored the gas. Stink bomb! After 3-4 minutes the stink went away.
To test my theory, I tried flooring the gas again today driving with the tailgate window open and once again set off the stink bomb smell for a few minutes.
I guess I never smelled it because I'm not a speed demon driver.
For those of you who are experiencing the stink problem regularly, do you drive aggressively? If so, you might want to try laying off the jackrabbit starts for a few days to see if that resolves your issue.
For those of you who are thinking of buying a new 4Runner, go on a test drive with your salesperson, roll down the rear window and floor the gas. If the car stinks up, you might be able to negotiate a better price!
BTW, I love my 4Runner! Sometimes my dog has a smelly rear end and I love him, too!
Martin.....stink......Martin......stink...Martin..stink.Martin stinks! Oh, I get it now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Many people complained about Honda dealers. Many of the Honda models are sold at MSRP only. They have waiting lists on the Odyssey, for example, at MSRP. The Honda dealers were seen as arrogant. I had no problems with my dealer, however.
pat84: I'm still hopefull that I'll find a decent dealer. Actually your deal sounds great. Was that their version of invoice or Edmund's?
I know this post isn't real helpful in your efforts to bring down the evil empire that is Toyota, but I am one of those people who used to care about what you had to say. I no longer care. Your approach has forced me to realize that you may not be what you seem and that what you say is probably not true. If you are not careful, this will backfire and you will lose the support that you have left. You can't honestly think that Toyota hasn't had to deal with people like you before? This approach only alienates Toyota loyalists, the exact bunch of people you need in your corner!
Maybe Toyota's cost has changed, since they are now charging extra for the pleasing aroma.
In any case, I was happy with the price and trade in. I was to the good over $3k on what I still owed on the Odyssey and what they gave me on trade in. I know they made money on me, but they have to have to pay the rent and utilities and make a profit. They are convenient and my salesman has sent me a reminder it's been three months, come in for an oil change. I can pass by there on my way home from work.
I found dealers around here pretty consistent on it. For the LTD models I was looking at, dealer advertising was around $800 over the Edmunds/KBB invoice.
Alternatively, manufactuers could just build it into the base invoice of the vehicle, rather than have it be a separate charge. Is there any reason they don't do this?
-Jared