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Comments
>bags, though, particularly on a vehicle like
>this. Its mass and frame should reduce the
>lateral acceleration from an impact, and its
>height should mean that the bumper and hood of
>even a high-riding vehicle (pickup or tall SUV,
>say) won't be impacting my chest and head,
>respectively
The Insurance Institute's tests shown on (Prime Time, 48 hours or one of those) disagrees with you. It's not the chest impact that's a problem, but the side of your head impacting with the pillar, door frame or window. The vehicles that were tested all seemed to survive just fine. Their occupants were not so well off without the airbags. Although the SUV does what you expect (moves laterally with the impact) the occupants' heads don't accelerate quickly enough to keep up with the vehicle. All of the slo-mo tests showed the head impacting with something on the side (pillar, door frame, window) and in some cases going out the window and impacting with the SUV that was doing the hitting.
I think it was the Ford Escape that was tested without the airbags that got a "worst" rating. Ford provided an identical model with airbags and they retested it. It got the "best" rating.
I think they are well worth the $200 price tag.
does the V8 engine produce the famous "raw eggs" smell and all the squeeks, chirps, and sounds we all see with the V6 engine??
plus, how much is the price difference in the V6 vs the V8?? in my guess, it shouldn't be too much as far as the '03 models go, thanks!
Have a good weekend all,
Jared
They changed the pricing mid-year. I bought mine in February, when the V8 was only $800 more than the V6. I think it's more in the $1300-$1500 range now, but I'm sure someone else could answer this better.
Now a question about the sunroof rattle some of you have had - what did it sound like? I'm trying to figure out if I have it or if it's just some of the junk sitting in the back seat I have. I should probably take the stuff out and see if I still hear what I think it might be. But, just to understand what it is I'm hearing, what do your sunroof rattles sound like? The noise I'm hearing only occurs on broken pavement, it isn't terribly loud, and it's semi-dull sounding (not a sharp crack or whatever...). Thanks....
The NW is full of beautiful forests and a lot of wilderness areas, so finding scenic off-raod adventures is easy and fun...lots of unnamed roads, its' great, you just see a road and off you go.
I asked this question once before, no response, so perhaps it is only me....but the visors are full of stickers/decals for the airbags and such....has anyone had success getting them off....I have tried to peel mine off, but it's not that simple.....they seem to be on quite tight.
Thank you for the good information I have gotten on this board, I have learned a lot.
Happy Adventures to all this weekend.
*nwrunner
As far as IIHS goes, their research doesn't disagree with me, as far as I can tell, but their priorities and assumptions are different from mine. IIHS seems to focus on minimizing occupant injury or preventing occupant death (in the test vehicle only) in the most violent car crashes. Worthy goals, of course, but designing to their simulated offset frontal crashes has apparently made some vehicles "harder" in the front end, perhaps leading to more serious occupant injury in more moderate crashes, and potentially more occupant injury in the other vehicle. Sorry about all the qualifying terms here, but few things in crash science are simple and certain and I'm no expert.
Anyway, have you seen the sleds the IIHS uses for these side-impact crashes? Compared to the government ones they're extra massive and tall, and traveling extra fast. I'm guessing that only vehicles with side curtain and/or head air bags will do well in these crashes. Fair as far as it goes, but not everybody chooses to spend the money or restrict their purchase options to account for a very unlikely occurance.
I don't know what all of the studies say about cause of death in these side impacts, but Mercedes-Benz research of a few years ago reportedly indicated that it was mainly the driver or passenger head striking the hood of the impacting vehicle, followed by chest crush from intrusion of the bumper or other front end structure of the impacting vehicle.
Sorry to be long-winded about this response, but I just don't think it's a simple matter of always choosing the vehicle with side airbags. Having the airbags seems to always be better than not having them, all things being equal (and I would have bought them if available), but all things are not equal. I made a choice of vehicle (height, mass, rigid frame, etc.) that should improve the situation and still give me the rest of the features I want at a price I'm happy with. The residual risk is something I'm willing to take. The benefit of the rigid frame, by the way, is reducing lateral accleration and not reducing vehicle damage.
By the way, the combo seat-side (front row only) and side curtain air bags in the 4Runner cost a lot more than $200, though I think they're still a good buy if you can get them. The seat-side only bags available in some cars should be helpful, but maybe not much against the sleds and speeds that IIHS uses.
I will take it to another dealer since I really have misgivings about the original dealer.
I still have to do the air suspension fix, so I am inclined to go where I have had better experience and just drop the original dealer all together.
But I agree that a side crash is unlikely, only 5% of all crashes. OTOH, of those few crashes, half of the people died. That's about 10,000 people a year. From 1980 to 2001, that's a 31% increase, which the institute attributes to the higher riding SUVs. (IIHS, as reported by USA Today)
In the Insurance Institute's test, only the Mitsubishi Outlander dummy's head exited the vehicle and hit the sled. Some of the others hit the window while others, especially the 12 year old dummy's head in the back, hit the pillar.
The IIHS sled was large with a contoured front, not flat like the NHTSA sled, to more closely simulate a real SUV. They stated at the start of the program that the test was supposed to be a large SUV on a small SUV. They were trying to make the point that just because you're in an SUV doesn't necessarily mean you're safe. The sled speed was 31 MPH and the target SUV was stopped. I wouldn't say that 31 MPH was extra fast. 31 MPH is a bit low, I think. I don't see anyone driving at 31 anywhere, not even in our office parking lot or my subdivision.
From my point of view, I think what the institute was trying to show was that the side air bags make a significant difference, and should be standard equipment. For the only vehicle that passed the first time, the Suburu Forester, airbags are standard. (Ford passed, but the airbags aren't standard.)
In the 4Runner Limited, for example, seat warmers are standard, and a radio is standard, but side air bags are an "option". Again, priorities.
As far as the program itself is concerned, well, ALL programs have advertising and package themselves to be attractive to an audience, even the 6 o'clock news. You can't believe everything, but you have to admit the possibility, however remote, that if an SUV plows into the side of you, your going to be better off with air bags than without. I have two fishing buddies and two nephews that are walking around today thanks to airbags. I'm a believer.
Without a doubt, as you state, it is a matter of choice, whether to get them or not. You choose not to, and I chose to get them. I hope that neither of us has the opportunity to prove the theory one way or the other.
Happy trails, and safe driving
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Anyway, I suspect that most folks think a lot more about airbags than they do about stability control or rollover prevention as life-savers in these vehicles. However I remember seeing some numbers a while back that suggested that rollover accidents (often single-vehicle) are a much greater cause of death in SUVs than anything else, including side impacts. So one could argue that stability control should be included as a standard feature before side-curtain airbags are. Interestingly, that's just what Toyota has done, though I don't presume to understand their exact motivations.
At a price of less than $500, why don't they make the side-curtain airbags standard? I'm still wondering (see my earlier post) if they actually cost Toyota more than $500. Anybody know?
I remember, as you said, that the sled was designed to simulate a large SUV. I couldn't tell from what I read if they intend to test that big sled against sedans or compact cars. Given their lower height and the limited crush space, I wonder if that sled would "kill" most folks in those vehicles, even with the airbags.
The side impacts sure are the scariest crashes. But even with 10000 deaths/year, one's chance of being killed that way is less than 1 in 20,000. My chance of dying of prostate cancer is probably a hundred times higher, and I'm always struggling to worry about the bigger hazards first. 31 MPH may not seem very fast, but as a final speed at impact in these crashes it's up there. I'm not saying it's a bad test, but it's a terribly violent one due to the very short crush space.
I didn't mean to come down too hard on outfits like the IIHS or Dateline (I do watch the programs and read the articles), but they have their own agendas. IIHS has been dismissive about the possibility that their high-speed offset crashes (and the design changes they urge on the automakers) might actually hurt more than they help, and you don't see them beating the drum for stability/rollover control on SUVs. It's just not as dramatic as those crash films.
So rward99, I guess we're mostly on the same page here, and I'm glad to get info that contributes to a more balanced perspective. Let's be careful out there!
The side airbags and X-REAS are must-haves for me. Had I been able to find a sport with the side airbags, or a 2WD Limited with X-REAS, I would have bought one off the lot. But no dealer in so cal could find one. So I had to put in a build order, and still am waiting for it to come in. It's really annoying that, unless you are willing to wait for a build order, the side airbags are really only available on Limiteds, and X-REAS is really only available on Sport s.
Thank you very much-Rusty
When compressed or relaxed, the wire that is coiled to make the springs rotates and rubs against their end cups. Try spraying a little WD40 on the very ends (top and bottom) of the springs making the noise. I have never tried this, but it should not hurt anything and may solve the problem. If spraying WD40 helps, but turns out to be only a temporary fix, heavy bearing grease is the next thing to try.
Another possibility is the stabilizer (sway) bar. Without having seen your vehicle, it may run in rubber bushings that might create this type of noise. The same fix might apply there also.
Personally, I don't understand that logic. If you're spending $30K for an SUV, what's another $460? That's $10 a month on your 4-year loan.
I ordered mine also, but for different reasons. I too will be getting the SE with side air bags. I ordered the '04 and should get it anytime after Halloween.
I've heard a third row of seats will be an option in 04, but I don't know on which s. What are your thoughts on that? Would you even want a third row? I haven't decided myself, but I expect Toyota will do something lame like only offer the third row on Limiteds.
I also made a build order at Carson for $500 over invoice. But I ordered white, and later changed my mind about the color. I tried to get them to do a new build order for me, but they will only do it for $1000 over invoice, which I will not pay. I'm stuck on getting mine in grey, so I submitted a new build order with Findlay Toyota, in Nevada, for $100 over invoice. They seem to know what their doing too.
i know i need 9006 for the lo-beam headlights, and 9005 for the hi-beam!
just wondering exactly what type/size bulb i will need for the foglights, thanks!
also, i understand that the V8 engine is about $750 more than the V6, so, my question is is it worth it? i realize it isn't much when talking about a $30,000 automobile, but for those of you that have driven both, what are you're thoughts on the better of the two engines??
and....i have the V6, and i am experiancing the sulfur/raw egg smell, so, it is NOT only on the V8's!!!!
thanks!
I am the original owner of my 1985 Nissan 300ZX, presently with about 84,000 miles on it. No, I don't put that many miles on it, but I do drive it around a major city and who knows who is out there driving around in a Suburban while distracted talking on a cell phone or intoxicated? I want that level of protection no matter what the odds. I can afford it; in fact, who can really afford to not have them considering the small cost? Because my next vehicle will hopefully also be good for 20 years or so, I think it is the ONLY choice to wait and get one with the side airbags since I doubt if anyone doesn't think that they will be standard in all vehicles within a few years because the public will demand them.
So, those of you considering a 4-Runner, demand 2004s with side air bags....if enough of the 2003s and 2004s without side air bags sit on dealer lots unsold while all the ones with the bags get purchased, what do you think Toyota is going to manufacture in the future? Thanks and I hope some of us have saved some lives out there.
I ordered the SE in Titanium, air bags, 6 CD in dash radio (I'll add satellite radio at the dealership)(SP)sport package, (NA) 115V AC plug, (RL) daytime running lights, and (PN) anti theft.
Third row seats will be available in the SR5 and Limited but not the SE. I think they conflict with the X-REAS system on the Limited. We have a Sienna which the wife uses for the school car pool, so I really didn't want it. I've heard they're kind of small. Not a whole lot of room back there. Red and green have been eliminated for '04. The grill is slightly changed, otherwise it's supposed to be very close to the '03. I haven't seen one yet. I don't think photos will be out until about this time next month.
If I were buying a new vehicle today, I would not even think about getting one without this option. Aside from the obvious safety advantages, as the years go by this will become more and more important to used car buyers.
I have bought quite a few new cars and one thing I have learned is not to rush out and buy one that doesn't really have all of the features or options I want. Too often I made the decision to "drive it home today", taking something that was perhaps 90% of what I would have ideally wanted, instead of waiting the "seems like forever" 8-12 weeks or so for a special order. And you know what? When those 8-12 weeks had passed the first thing I would think of was "why didn't I wait, I would have been driving exactly what I wanted by now, today".
If I were in the market for a new 4runner today, I would place an order for a 2004 model, since they are so close to release. I'd go down the list option by option to get 100% what I wanted. A purchase like this is too many $ to part with for anything less than each and every feature you want. Two months from now you will glad you waited. Really really glad.
I did notice that the front seat didn't seem all that comfortable to me. Can any owners of a LTD tell me what they think of the seats?
Keep this in mind too, that it is possible to special order a vehicle and NOT be obligated to buy it. I have in the past been able to order a new vehicle with a $500 or so fully refundable deposit and when it came in decide at that point if I wanted it or not. Some dealers are good about this, others may not be. Obviously if you order a slow-selling color or less popular options the dealer may be worried about "getting stuck" with a vehicle that will be tougher to sell.
Also, now days you should be able to get an exact build date/approx. delivery date within a couple weeks of ordering. Some manufacturers even allow this to be tracked along the way online, not sure about Toyota.
Another nice advantage about special ordering a vehicle is that you can request that NO ONE at all drive it once it arrives. Some new vehicles on the lots, even with 20, 30 or so miles on them may have been taken out around the block with some very hard running, emergency braking etc., you know, those things a lot of us do when allowed to take a test drive by ourselves.
Got the stock chrome wheels on now too. Will try and get some photos up. Looking Good!
SV
They can, and do, provide updates/feedback on the status of a special order. You can make "some" changes on options, particularly dealer options, during the build. It can include the expected delivery time. I'm not sure at what point in the process (1-week, 2-weeks) this becomes available, but since the build hasn't started I would guess that it would be a month from today at the earliest.
Changes for '04
- 3rd row seat option for SR5 and Limited
- Red and green colors are dropped
- Change in the grill (I don't know what)
- Color keyed cladding on all models
That's all I know about, there may be others
I had an Alpine 9813 deck put in my SE, but the installer did not know how to connect up the antenna correctly. He says it requires an adaptor which is not yet available.
Barry
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/tsb/tsbsearch.cfm
I yanked the "Headliner Rattle" to show to my dealer so he could order parts...
2003 4Runner TSBs to date for V6:
From: http://www.alldata.com/TSB/60/036008AP.html
TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title EL008R-02 JAN 03 Keyless Entry - Transmitter Programming/Identification
BO021-02 DEC 02 Interior - Upper Console Box Removal Precautions
PG018R-02 DEC 02 Body - Power Window/Moon Roof Initialization
PG027-02 DEC 02 Steering/Suspension - Ball Joint Inspection
NV010-02 NOV 02 Interior - Front Seat Squeak/Creak Noise
NV009R-02 NOV 02 Interior - Headliner Rattles
BO017-02 SEP 02 Interior - Seat Belt Extender Availability
EG007-02 MAR 02 Valve Cover Oil Baffle - Damage Prevention
2003 4Runner TSBs to date for V8:
http://www.alldata.com/TSB/60/036008AD.html
TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title EL008R-02 JAN 03 Keyless Entry - Transmitter Programming/Identification
BO021-02 DEC 02 Interior - Upper Console Box Removal Precautions
PG018R-02 DEC 02 Body - Power Window/Moon Roof Initialization
PG027-02 DEC 02 Steering/Suspension - Ball Joint Inspection
NV010-02 NOV 02 Interior - Front Seat Squeak/Creak Noise
NV009R-02 NOV 02 Interior - Headliner Rattles
BO017-02 SEP 02 Interior - Seat Belt Extender Availability
EG007-02 MAR 02 Valve Cover Oil Baffle - Damage Prevention
Just bought a new '03 SR5 4x4 V8 this weekend! Got the appearance package, 17" alloys, double-decker, leather wheel, and other stuff...paid $28,266. Worked through Edmunds and the Jim Coleman "internet sales" in MD. Overall, a great experience and a great truck!
I, for one, drove both the V6 and the V8 back-to-back. The V8 just felt soooo smooth and quiet, with more power than I could ever imagine. I know there's a tradeoff between new engine/proven tranny and proven engine/new tranny ... but the fact that I want to have this truck for the next 10 years made me spring for the V8.
As for side airbags, the dealerships just did not receive any and it would be a special order to get one. I really would have preferred side airbags, but at that point I was happy to find the combo!
I have heard others talking about the resonance in the V8. I did notice it in the steering wheel at about 1800 rpm. Also, had a little wobble in the steering at 55mph. Evened out tire pressure and it was better. Otherwise:
No squeaks
No rattles
No sulphur (only smell comes from the dog in the back!)
Let's hope it stays that way!
Drove it back to Roch, NY and it drives like a dream. I was planning on getting the v6 but after driving the V8, it was no comparison. The 5 speed tranny shifts smooth as silk and the engine is so quiet and smooth it is amazing. I still have my 1990 sr5 5-spd with 225K on it, and use that to drive into the city for work.
The 2003 vehicle runs flawlessly, no squeaks or rattles and everything is just as expected. I do smell the sulphur only when the back window is open and I accelerate hard. Not a biggy but I'm wondering if putting a tail pipe extender on would resolve this.
BTW - I had a Volvo SUV XC90 on order but by purchasing the yota I saved about 18K. No side airbags and sunroof but for the cash and the repair history record advantage I think it was a good decision.
The only option I wish I had was the auto dim rearview mirror with homelink and compass. I'll probably just buy a digital dash mount.
I was lucky to find this vehicle because there aren't many out there there DON'T have the sunroof. The top of my head grazed the headliner so I really wanted one with out the sunroof.
As far as DVD player, I purchased a portable panasonic with the 9" screen for $480 at digital city (I used pricescan to find the best online price) and then bought a mount from www.mitocorp.com. This way the dvd isn't stuck to the vehicle like a built-in. Plus the screen height is much more condusive to watching versus looking up at the ceiling.
Also bought a reese poly cargo hitch carrier and a hitch bike rack with the money I saved.
Thanks for listening. Hope this information helps someone.
http://www.mitocorp.com/homelink_mirrors.htm
If you just want the mirror, Brandsport still has the basic autodim mirror (Genuine Toyota part #) for $49 (w/ free shipping) that fits all 4Runners including the 2003. (mirror only - no compass) Took 10 mins to install: http://www.brandsport.com/toy-pt374-0c020.html
http://www.vizualogic.com/headrest_prod/models/toyota_4runner.htm- - - - l
Here's link they gave for installation instructions:
http://www.geocities.com/brandsport4/