I will join those disagreeing. Lenders are not handing out cash like in the past. You have to have a good score to get a loan from a bank. Not sure how easy the auto credit lenders are. I would suspect your ability to pay must be visible. No "Pick a Pay" loans or "Quick Qualifying Loans".
Is that a surprise? These are frugal people who are accustomed to driving their cars till they drop, and now they've taken on a new vehicle perhaps two years sooner than they were planning to.
You can count me among the 83% who have no doubts.
No they're not going to run forever. In the other thread several times I estimated a 5 yr 'benefit period' assuming that over the next 5 yrs these clunkers would have been put to sleep anyway due to natural causes.
The other point is that this is the minimum estimate. Most of the older clunkers didn't get anywhere near their 'rated' value of 15 mpg. Most of these were really bad off and maybe got 8-12 mpg. Most of the new vehicles now exceed the new revised EPA ratings by 5-10%.
Also you ignore the tax benefits that the Feds and all the states receive from this 20+% boost in business. A 20% boost in sales and revenues also means a 20% boost in tax revenues across the board all the way down the line to the clerk at the aftermarket store and the steelworker making the electrogalvanized steel for the body panels. This generates a huge spike in tax revenues.
But obviously he/she knows so much that its opinion with zero evidence to back it up is worth more then the observations we have here from well over a thousand car deals.
:confuse:
Need an eye roll emotorcon.
As to the 17% of people who are unsure of their purchase that sounds to about the right number of people that get buyer's remorse to me for any purchase. I am actually surprised it isn't higher.
"...My opinion is that this program will result in a high number of repossessions..."
I'm going to have to side with BR on this one. I think that the typical C4C buyer was a frugal middle class person who could have bought a new car at any time but found the extra money to be irresistible.
I have personally told two people I know about this program, one was of modest means who had an old Caddie gas hog that barely ran, the other a middle class railroad retiree. The Caddie owner needed a new car desperately but because of poor credit and lack of cash was unable to make a deal. The railroad guy traded an older, but still functional truck for a brand new loaded Accord.
The middle class guy didn't need a new vehicle but was in the right place at the right time with the right amount of cash. The less well off person was unable to take advantage of the situation. He had to settle for a $500 beater.
There may be a few people who have been led astray but I don't see a huge repo problem.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I'm going to have to side with BR on this one. I think that the typical C4C buyer was a frugal middle class person who could have bought a new car at any time but found the extra money to be irresistible.
Same here. My brother in law drives a rusty old junky truck but there is no way he would ever be able to get a loan nor would he be able to afford payments so he couldn't even consider C4C. Of the 3 people that I know (including myself) who took advantage of the C4C deal, all have excellent credit and if I had to class us, we would be considered middle class. All 3 of us had not taken a car payment in years. I paid $13,500 for a $22,000 car and save $100 a month in gas, too good to resist.
What would be interesting to see would be the difference in remorse between the early buyers and the later ones. It seems the early ones thought out their purchase more and will be happier longer. My guess is the fire sale mentality that took place in the last couple of weeks will bring a lot more regrets when the newness of the vehicle wears off in a couple of months.
They company that did the survey indicates that 17% is about double the normal figure for new car purchasers. (I would not be surprised if it is normally much higher than ~8% for you, though, given the high priced vehicles I am assuming that you sell, brittish rover)
No, I actually think our buyer's remorse percentage is probably lower then 8%. Everyone I talk to always seems very happy a few days to a few months after the sale.
I mean they could just be putting on a show for me over the phone but why would they?
I was thinking that 17% seemed low because whenever I buy something more then a few hundred dollars I usually feel a little guilty and question myself afterwords. It goes away after a while but almost always happens.
(I would not be surprised if it is normally much higher than ~8% for you, though, given the high priced vehicles I am assuming that you sell, brittish rover)
I think it would be the other way around. I've never regretted moving up to a vehicle w/ more bells and whistles. The one that I still can't see is the guy that went from a Continental to an Aveo. My Mom has a 2000 Continental with a lot of "fun stuff". I can't imagine someone used to that being happy with the cheap interior of an Aveo.
The deal I mentioned was offered 2 days after C4C ended, maybe I didn't explain that clearly. The Trooper is a 2002, 3.5 (Opel?) engine with 71K miles and is in excellent condition other than the engine; in fact, a local repair shop offered to buy it even with the bad engine. I asked a lot of people and finally found a place with a good reputation that would put in the new engine for less than half of what the dealers were quoting. The new engine is not just a replacement, it will have approx. 35 more HP and 30 ft.lbs of torque for $3,500. Kia has sold less than 1600 Borregos this year which made me worry about availibility of parts after it is discontinued for lack of interest, although it does look good on paper and gets decent reviews from the few people who bought one. My target price was based on Edmund's TMV - (Rebates & C4C) and I was offering above invoice hoping for a quick deal. I go to N. Ontario at least 2 times a year which means I'm often driving roads whose only other traffic is logging trucks. Here at home I drive a Honda Insight. I hope I addressed all the comments and I'm happy with my decision.
Oh well that is a different story with so few miles and only 3,500 bucks for that 3.5 DOHC motor, which is a good engine and is I think an actual Isuzu motor not a GM job, then what you did makes more sense.
When you said GM motor I assumed you had a first Gen Trooper.
I think you made the right decision and the Kia dealer was caught up in the greed of the moment. He will be sitting on those Borrego's for a while I would guess. Especially the V8 models in the $40k range. Hope you get many more years from your Trooper.
Yes, those were Isuzu engines. Honda used them in the Isuzu built Passports.
They weren't very good engines. 100,000 miles was a stretch for them.
I thought of you last week when I was in California. A buddy was looking for a used Cadillac and we walked into the Land Rover - Aston Martin store in Newport Beach.
Yeah I imagine newport would be and having Aston in the same store wouldn't help.
Those Isuzu sixes were weird they were like a 72 degree V6 I think and always seemed to be ticking.
They made good power though and I had a few customers put 100,000-150,000 mostly trouble free miles on them. They definitely needed more maintenance then your average honda motor. You couldn't run one 10,000 miles without an oil change like you can a civic.
But don't you see a theme here. all of us that are in the car biz are saying the same thing. Allot of cash deals and those who financed had good credit.
It is not the debacle all the clunker haters wanted it to be, and now that the program was succesfull now they all want to say, well then there will be allot of repo's from it.
Take it for what it was, a good 30 some day shot in the arm for.
Dealers Suppliers State Government Local Government Insurance Companies Vendors and the list goes on and on.
I am not a supporter of Obama or his Administration but this plan worked. It did exactly what it was designed to do.
So, are you going to pay it forward and take your commission check to buy a refer to help the appliance industry?
I know I will use the extra $$ to support my family, pay my mortgage, buy groceries, pay my heating oil and other utilities and support my local liquor store. How about that for helping out the local economy?
I think it would be the other way around. I've never regretted moving up to a vehicle w/ more bells and whistles. The one that I still can't see is the guy that went from a Continental to an Aveo. My Mom has a 2000 Continental with a lot of "fun stuff". I can't imagine someone used to that being happy with the cheap interior of an Aveo.
Trading in a Lincoln for an Aveo was an extreme example. Much more likely scenario is trading in a Lincoln for a Camry, an Accord, or maybe a Corolla. I don't see anyone have trouble adapting to the new car in those cases.
I traded in a fully loaded Chrysler Town and Country for the Altima Hybrid. I don't have any remorse at all. I think I am much more towards the middle in terms of C4C behavior than someone getting an Aveo for a Lincoln.
My opinion is that this program will result in a high number of repossessions and month's from now we'll be reading/seeing it online/papers/kindle/news.
Alex, I will take negitive views for $800 please.
What people don't get is that when the goverment put the "has to have had insurance for the past year" rule in effect you knocked out 75% of the people with sub standard credit out of the program. It policed its self from jump.
Yes if I remember the list of restrictions the last one was ...
Credit-slugs need not apply.
In our experience it was self-restricting because we made it clear that unless the owner had clear title in-hand we couldn't even begin the process. This eliminated anyone who was buried in a clunker that they had bought at a roadside stand 'just to get wheels'.
it's just a whole bunch of taxpayers paying for someone's car
Whats the difference?? My tax money paid to repair a bridge in Iowa that I will never drive across. My tax money helped Jack and Diane buy a house I will never step foot in. My tax money paid to stock fish in a lake in Arizona that I will never fish in. The IRS annually spends about $10 billion of taxpayer money to collect income tax, they have to collect $10 billion before they break even, and thats not counting what they pay out.
The goverment throws money down the crapper all day every day, C4C is getting such a bad rap because it was so popular everyone knows about it.
One thing that stuck out for me was the fact that a lot of people who took advantage of the clunker program didn't seem one bit grateful. Instead they acted empowered and like they deserved even more.
I guess that didn't surprise me.
And the people who tried to get around the rules were amazing not to mention creative.
And on top of all that if they really did only spend 100 million in administrative costs to run a program worth almost three billion that is actually very efficient. For the gov't that is insanely efficient...
That is only 3.48% in administrative costs. There aren't many programs/organizations that have administrative costs that low.
I can think of 3 people I had to be stern with and 1 I had to be an [non-permissible content removed] hole with over insurance and registrations. The 3 I had to be stern with said they would get me documents when they had time, I reminded them there car would would sit till they got them, they tried to play touh and say if I did not let them take the car today they would go someplace else and buy. I handed all 3 there paper work back and thanked them for coming in. The got a blank stare and all were back within 24 hours with the docs.
The guy I gad to be an [non-permissible content removed] hole with was one I mis-read the registration on and got an expired reg from him. When I called he said it was my problem not his and not to call again. I told him that he needs to get all of his personal belongings out of the car because we would be picking it up before the sun set. My fax machine went off about 45 minutes later with a registration.
Other then that I had a great group of folks to work with and most were very thankful.
One thing that stuck out for me was the fact that a lot of people who took advantage of the clunker program didn't seem one bit grateful. Instead they acted empowered and like they deserved even more.
Why should customers act grateful to the dealership for the clunker cash? If anything, the salespeople should be grateful that SOMEONE bought a car this month.
One thing that stuck out for me was the fact that a lot of people who took advantage of the clunker program didn't seem one bit grateful. Instead they acted empowered and like they deserved even more. .. Well I am grateful.. I had no choice, my Bronco had serious trouble.and had to have vechicle- would probably got the best used car I could. I was treated well at dealer and had all the qualifications- no issues.
And I am so releived to have a dependable car. It is only tainted by the fact that my deal was the first one and there was a couple of mistakes on salvage and sales tax.
The FI guy said they will refund the sales tax and maybe net salvage when THEY get paid for gov. My deal was done on 7/24 and approved but I still have no check.. I liked my dealer and I right now I just hope the check comes soon, cause I want to enjoy my new car. I fit the profile- just a middle class tax payer doing the best I can for my family and country -happy to be an American.
One thing that stuck out for me was the fact that a lot of people who took advantage of the clunker program didn't seem one bit grateful. Instead they acted empowered and like they deserved even more.
I'm grateful for the rebate, but that certainly didn't stop me from trying to get a good deal on the car. The dealership would be reimbursed for my rebate so negotiating for a deal didn't seem unreasonable to me. Purchasing this vehicle wasn't an easy decision. I don't like to buy brand new, there was a little shame in "taking a government handout" as so many who couldn't get the rebate put it, but I'm as happy as a clam now and I wouldn't trade our experience. I'm pretty sure that every now and then, we all get a good break. I feel like I finally got mine and yep, I'm grateful.
I can't think of anyone who wasn't cooperative and positive about the whole program. When people called in asking I simply said that the process would take anywhere from 3 to 5 hours (!!) and that they should be prepared to wait ( bring a book ) and that they had to have everything in order on their side or nothing could go forward.
Everyone had everything in order and most processes took about 3-4 hours.
The buyers were very understanding, patient and cooperative. All-in-all good experiences with a lot of smiles and new friends ( hopefully ) made for the future.
Just read in the local paper that Sunnyvale Toyota, right in the middle of Silicon Valley, has not received payment on 580 C4C deals as of August 19, while having been reimbursed for only 10. The vast majority of rebates were for $4,500. They closed the program last Sunday at noon.
That's a very impressive number of C4C deals. The Bay Area is doing very well in C4C sales.
Well, I don't know about that if many posters are to be believed. Seemed the people who took advantage of C4C were people who already had a substantial amount saved for a down payment and C4C was gravy. They were probably frugal people who kept their old vehicles much longer than the average person.
At our beach condo, a single mom lives downstairs, and this helped her trade her beater Buick Roadmaster for a new CR-V LX FWD (the cheapest and most efficient model).
She got out of a gas guzzler that was all she could afford, and C4C gave her just enough help to upgrade to the toddler mom crossover.
She was extremely grateful, beaming from ear to ear.
I didn't think I had to be grateful to a salesman for my C4C rebate. I don't thank the merchants when I spend my $400 tax rebate that Mayor Bloomberg gives back to me, nor do I see the point in thanking somone when I use money from my tax refund check to buy anything. If anything the dealerships should be grateful that I chose their place to spend my C4C rebate (as well as my own money). In fact, I went to 3 dealerships before I bought a new Honda Odyssey EX-L and part of the problem was that they acted like they were owed something because of this whole C4C.
Why should customers act grateful to the dealership for the clunker cash? If anything, the salespeople should be grateful that SOMEONE bought a car this month.
There are two separate issues here, and I think people are confusing the two - perhaps this comes through the brevity sometimes used in discussion forums.
1. Gratitude on the part of the customer - for the program - who was able to get more for a clunker than they would have been otherwise. I think we've seen a lot of that expressed here.
2. Gratitude on the part of the dealers, who were able to make more sales than they would've been otherwise. I think we've seen a lot of that expressed here too.
I don't think either should have expected gratitude from either, just for the simple fact that the program existed and transactions were made. I haven't seen a lot of that! I do understand Craig's point that it can be frustrating to have customers grumble at the dealer about a program that is largely externally controlled. No different than when we hosts get grumbling about software or design changes - hey man, we're just the hosts, trying to give you the best experience possible, within the environment provided. Same thing.
Make sense?
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I misunderstood your earlier post and didn't mean to take it out on you but on the dealerships in general. You have to admit that there were probably some salesmen who took advantage of the C4C to and saw that rebate as extra profit for them. I understand that extra demand will cause a rise in price, but I shouldn't be charged more than the guy next to me because I have a clunker and he doesn't. If I insulted you, I apologize - I'm sure you've helped me out many times on this forum. BTW- I am grateful for the rebate. I managed to turn over my 89 Bronco II and get 3,500 towards a new Odyssey. We were planning on getting one as soon as the Bronco died (which would've been soon) so things worked out for us.
>7/24 and approved but I still have no check.. I liked my dealer and I right now I just hope the check comes soon, cause I want to enjoy my new car.
Do you have the new car? I thought they had to deliver the new car--they couldn't hold it until the government payment for your account or their account was paid out?
Comments
I will join those disagreeing. Lenders are not handing out cash like in the past. You have to have a good score to get a loan from a bank. Not sure how easy the auto credit lenders are. I would suspect your ability to pay must be visible. No "Pick a Pay" loans or "Quick Qualifying Loans".
http://usedcars.about.com/b/2009/08/26/cash-for-clunkers-remorse.htm
You can count me among the 83% who have no doubts.
The other point is that this is the minimum estimate. Most of the older clunkers didn't get anywhere near their 'rated' value of 15 mpg. Most of these were really bad off and maybe got 8-12 mpg. Most of the new vehicles now exceed the new revised EPA ratings by 5-10%.
Also you ignore the tax benefits that the Feds and all the states receive from this 20+% boost in business. A 20% boost in sales and revenues also means a 20% boost in tax revenues across the board all the way down the line to the clerk at the aftermarket store and the steelworker making the electrogalvanized steel for the body panels. This generates a huge spike in tax revenues.
No wonder why I hadn't heard of them.
Yes, nothing depreciates like a Kia so you are right!
I thought it was some cheap Kia.
Yes, passing on that was no doubt a good idea!
:confuse:
Need an eye roll emotorcon.
As to the 17% of people who are unsure of their purchase that sounds to about the right number of people that get buyer's remorse to me for any purchase. I am actually surprised it isn't higher.
I'm going to have to side with BR on this one. I think that the typical C4C buyer was a frugal middle class person who could have bought a new car at any time but found the extra money to be irresistible.
I have personally told two people I know about this program, one was of modest means who had an old Caddie gas hog that barely ran, the other a middle class railroad retiree. The Caddie owner needed a new car desperately but because of poor credit and lack of cash was unable to make a deal. The railroad guy traded an older, but still functional truck for a brand new loaded Accord.
The middle class guy didn't need a new vehicle but was in the right place at the right time with the right amount of cash. The less well off person was unable to take advantage of the situation. He had to settle for a $500 beater.
There may be a few people who have been led astray but I don't see a huge repo problem.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Same here. My brother in law drives a rusty old junky truck but there is no way he would ever be able to get a loan nor would he be able to afford payments so he couldn't even consider C4C. Of the 3 people that I know (including myself) who took advantage of the C4C deal, all have excellent credit and if I had to class us, we would be considered middle class. All 3 of us had not taken a car payment in years. I paid $13,500 for a $22,000 car and save $100 a month in gas, too good to resist.
I mean they could just be putting on a show for me over the phone but why would they?
I was thinking that 17% seemed low because whenever I buy something more then a few hundred dollars I usually feel a little guilty and question myself afterwords. It goes away after a while but almost always happens.
I think it would be the other way around. I've never regretted moving up to a vehicle w/ more bells and whistles.
The one that I still can't see is the guy that went from a Continental to an Aveo. My Mom has a 2000 Continental with a lot of "fun stuff". I can't imagine someone used to that being happy with the cheap interior of an Aveo.
When you said GM motor I assumed you had a first Gen Trooper.
They weren't very good engines. 100,000 miles was a stretch for them.
I thought of you last week when I was in California. A buddy was looking for a used Cadillac and we walked into the Land Rover - Aston Martin store in Newport Beach.
Pretty snooty place but it was Newport Beach.
Those Isuzu sixes were weird they were like a 72 degree V6 I think and always seemed to be ticking.
They made good power though and I had a few customers put 100,000-150,000 mostly trouble free miles on them. They definitely needed more maintenance then your average honda motor. You couldn't run one 10,000 miles without an oil change like you can a civic.
It is not the debacle all the clunker haters wanted it to be, and now that the program was succesfull now they all want to say, well then there will be allot of repo's from it.
Take it for what it was, a good 30 some day shot in the arm for.
Dealers
Suppliers
State Government
Local Government
Insurance Companies
Vendors
and the list goes on and on.
I am not a supporter of Obama or his Administration but this plan worked. It did exactly what it was designed to do.
I know I will use the extra $$ to support my family, pay my mortgage, buy groceries, pay my heating oil and other utilities and support my local liquor store. How about that for helping out the local economy?
The one that I still can't see is the guy that went from a Continental to an Aveo. My Mom has a 2000 Continental with a lot of "fun stuff". I can't imagine someone used to that being happy with the cheap interior of an Aveo.
Trading in a Lincoln for an Aveo was an extreme example. Much more likely scenario is trading in a Lincoln for a Camry, an Accord, or maybe a Corolla. I don't see anyone have trouble adapting to the new car in those cases.
I traded in a fully loaded Chrysler Town and Country for the Altima Hybrid. I don't have any remorse at all. I think I am much more towards the middle in terms of C4C behavior than someone getting an Aveo for a Lincoln.
Still think dealer employees aren't honest?
They were weak then
Alex, I will take negitive views for $800 please.
What people don't get is that when the goverment put the "has to have had insurance for the past year" rule in effect you knocked out 75% of the people with sub standard credit out of the program. It policed its self from jump.
Credit-slugs need not apply.
In our experience it was self-restricting because we made it clear that unless the owner had clear title in-hand we couldn't even begin the process. This eliminated anyone who was buried in a clunker that they had bought at a roadside stand 'just to get wheels'.
Whats the difference?? My tax money paid to repair a bridge in Iowa that I will never drive across. My tax money helped Jack and Diane buy a house I will never step foot in. My tax money paid to stock fish in a lake in Arizona that I will never fish in. The IRS annually spends about $10 billion of taxpayer money to collect income tax, they have to collect $10 billion before they break even, and thats not counting what they pay out.
The goverment throws money down the crapper all day every day, C4C is getting such a bad rap because it was so popular everyone knows about it.
I guess that didn't surprise me.
And the people who tried to get around the rules were amazing not to mention creative.
That is only 3.48% in administrative costs. There aren't many programs/organizations that have administrative costs that low.
The guy I gad to be an [non-permissible content removed] hole with was one I mis-read the registration on and got an expired reg from him. When I called he said it was my problem not his and not to call again. I told him that he needs to get all of his personal belongings out of the car because we would be picking it up before the sun set. My fax machine went off about 45 minutes later with a registration.
Other then that I had a great group of folks to work with and most were very thankful.
Why should customers act grateful to the dealership for the clunker cash? If anything, the salespeople should be grateful that SOMEONE bought a car this month.
..
Well I am grateful.. I had no choice, my Bronco had serious trouble.and had to have vechicle- would probably got the best used car I could. I was treated well at dealer and had all the qualifications- no issues.
And I am so releived to have a dependable car. It is only tainted by the fact that my deal was the first one and there was a couple of mistakes on salvage and sales tax.
The FI guy said they will refund the sales tax and maybe net salvage when THEY get paid for gov. My deal was done on 7/24 and approved but I still have no check.. I liked my dealer and I right now I just hope the check comes soon, cause I want to enjoy my new car. I fit the profile- just a middle class tax payer doing the best I can for my family and country -happy to be an American.
I'm grateful for the rebate, but that certainly didn't stop me from trying to get a good deal on the car. The dealership would be reimbursed for my rebate so negotiating for a deal didn't seem unreasonable to me. Purchasing this vehicle wasn't an easy decision. I don't like to buy brand new, there was a little shame in "taking a government handout" as so many who couldn't get the rebate put it, but I'm as happy as a clam now and I wouldn't trade our experience. I'm pretty sure that every now and then, we all get a good break. I feel like I finally got mine and yep, I'm grateful.
I can't think of anyone who wasn't cooperative and positive about the whole program. When people called in asking I simply said that the process would take anywhere from 3 to 5 hours (!!) and that they should be prepared to wait ( bring a book ) and that they had to have everything in order on their side or nothing could go forward.
Everyone had everything in order and most processes took about 3-4 hours.
The buyers were very understanding, patient and cooperative. All-in-all good experiences with a lot of smiles and new friends ( hopefully ) made for the future.
That's a very impressive number of C4C deals. The Bay Area is doing very well in C4C sales.
At our beach condo, a single mom lives downstairs, and this helped her trade her beater Buick Roadmaster for a new CR-V LX FWD (the cheapest and most efficient model).
She got out of a gas guzzler that was all she could afford, and C4C gave her just enough help to upgrade to the toddler mom crossover.
She was extremely grateful, beaming from ear to ear.
I just meant in general. Some were certainly both grateful and happy while others weren't.
I found the same things happening here too Craig.
GP
Wow.... I sense some resentment here..... :sick:
GP
I didn't expect anyone to be grateful to the dealership or to me!
I just expected to hear things like...
" What a great thing this is"
Or..." This made it possible for me to get out of this junker"
I did hear things like this a few times.
I also heard a lot of griping that their car didn't qualify for 4500.00 and they "only" get 3500.00. Stuff like that.
Sorry I brought this up!
1. Gratitude on the part of the customer - for the program - who was able to get more for a clunker than they would have been otherwise. I think we've seen a lot of that expressed here.
2. Gratitude on the part of the dealers, who were able to make more sales than they would've been otherwise. I think we've seen a lot of that expressed here too.
I don't think either should have expected gratitude from either, just for the simple fact that the program existed and transactions were made. I haven't seen a lot of that! I do understand Craig's point that it can be frustrating to have customers grumble at the dealer about a program that is largely externally controlled. No different than when we hosts get grumbling about software or design changes - hey man, we're just the hosts, trying to give you the best experience possible, within the environment provided. Same thing.
Make sense?
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Thanks!
It takes a lot to do that! I'm glad it worked well for you.
Do you have the new car? I thought they had to deliver the new car--they couldn't hold it until the government payment for your account or their account was paid out?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,