Of course i stole your windshield sticker Eric, IT ROCKS! As soon as i saw pics of your rig i had to find where you got it.
Keats~ Thanks for the info on bumpers, I agree about the tubes, not much you can do with a double tube. Time to start saving for a nice rock bumper! Gotta keep the mud flaps though. i live in NY and my corners in the rear and the fender extension under the unlimited tag on the front quarter get incased in ice and i don't want to do any damage so the muds gotta stay to keep that from happening.
a lift for looks and bigger tires that will not see offroad action would be the spacer lift. Basically put spacers on your springs to give you a lift. You can also do a body lift, but the general rule there is only do a 1". Larger body lifts can possibly (but entirely proven) cause increased forces on the bolts holding the body to the frame and break in an accident or such.
There is also a budget boost, which consists of longer shocks and spring spacers. Rubicon Express makes one for about 200 I think. This gives you the same result as a spacer lift, but the shocks can handle longer travel. So if you go offroad at all on trails and perhaps a bit more tough stuff, your axles will articulate a bit better and not be limited by the stock shock (that you would use on a spacer lift alone).
A full blown lift usually consists of new springs, shocks, trackbar brackets (or adjustable trackbars), disconnects for the front sway bar (and maybe even new control arms). These can be VERY pricey and you REALLY want to consider all impacts it has on other systems, such as steering, transfer case/driveline, etc.
A spacer or budget boost would probably be the best way to go for you. If I were you, I'd probably go for the budget boost. You never know when you'd want to go offroading.
I have a 97 also and am seriously considering the Old Man Emu (OME) lift. It rides better than stock, from what I hear from trusted sources on here, and gives me about 2.5-3" of lift. My plan is to go to 32" tires (nothing bigger for me on the 4cylinder and the D35/D30 axle combination).
I was browsing ebay and came across a picture of a new 2005 unlimited rubicon. I noticed the side windows were no longer one piece, but they were now divided diagonally just like on the soft tops of the SWB wrangler. Has anyone else seen this or can confirm this is a change for all new unlimiteds?
I thought the article was very interesting. And it does fall right in line with what everyone else says here - if it were that easy to improve your performance, the auto makers would have done it long ago.
But things like lifts fall into that category in some ways. While they have definite gains for certain things (ground clearance - I have a nice dent in the stock skid plate where I scraped on a rock because I don't have a lift) they aren't for everyone. Our our discussion earlier about the "death wobble" showed, and Paul's post about the impacts of a full blown lift has on a vehicle to see that Jeep mods can do lots of harm.
Bottom line - know what you are doing and why you are doing it. Weigh all the factors to see if it is really worth it. Every time I think about doing a small lift to gain a bit more ground clearance, I add up the dollars involved and decide those dollars are really needed elsewhere (like trying to fix the leak in the house).
Yep, I'm having a hard time deciding on whether to lift or not to lift. I've condsidered a simple MML and BL, but I hate body lean. I've also considered the OME lift, but since I drive my Rubi every day, I don't want it too be uncomfortable to get in and out of--right now it's easy, but add a couple of inches of lift and it might turn into a head ache. I also think it handles very well the corners--for an SUV and I'd hate for that to change dramatically.
Everything I've read suggests that a BL and MML change things the least, but add a little space in the wheel wells and of course, opens up a new world of skid options, i.e. Kilby, and for anyone with an 03 or 04 the Nth Degree Tummy Tucker...
To any of the suspension experts- I've done some budget-minded modifications to my Jeep but I'm unsatisfied with the drivability on pavement. Reading that article that Steve posted made me think about it some more.
For some background, my Jeep is a daily driver around town (90% of that is my wife) and a weekend off-roader driven by me. Around town, 40-45 mph max. Off-road, unpaved forest service and logging roads (no mudding, I try to tread lightly). A couple/few times a year it sees an ORV park with sand dunes. I usually rely on the Jeep to get me to most remote area possible, at which point I hike, cross-country ski or just camp out.
Some things that are important (not really prioritized, since I'd like everything here to be equally represented, as subjective as that may be): ground clearance, in the winter I venture into very deep snow, the rest of the year it's all about the breakover angle (maybe a little on the departure angle too); traction in snow and sand (limited slip seems to be providing that); suspension articulation while off-road; on-road driving characteristics, I'd like it to be safe and not so twitchy; and it would be nice if I could use all 5 gears.
Here's what I've done to my '02 Wrangler X 5-speed: Spring spacers, 2"; OME shocks, the ones for 2" lift; 33x10.5 BFG MT tires; 2" body lift; front sway bar quick disco's; and rock bars from Turbo City.
There's a few things I don't like about this configuration, which are usually noticed above 50 mph, I have no complaints off-road (well, that track bar tail-wagging trait is real annoying, to the point of being comical to passengers).
Gearing is my biggest complaint since this thing has 3.07 gears. I can only use 5th gear when going down hill.
Getting this Jeep to track in a straight line is challenging, to say the least. It doesn't pull (alignment is right on, had it checked), it just wanders. The slightest cross-wind will push it quickly around in the lane. Heavy winds have been so dangerous I've had to slow to 45 mph to stay my lane. When I make steering corrections it's real twitchy, I think I'd have to get longer control-arms to fix that.
Because I modified my Jeep when it was pretty new I don't remember if it had what I think is a track bar issue before the lift. Basically, when I go over large slow bumps the back of Jeep feels like it wags from left to right. Is this caused by my 2" suspension lift? The other 2" in the body lift shouldn't have an effect.
So, I'm looking for any suggestions that you veteran Jeepers have. I hate to dump any more money into it. So I'm seriously considering replacing these 33" BFG MT's with some 31" BFG AT's when the current ones wear out. At that point I'd remove the body lift and spring spacers and hope it drives better.
That, or I sell it as is and try another vehicle. Which I'm seriously considering, as a little more space inside and 4-doors would be great. I'd miss the Jeep camaraderie that I see here and out in the woods though.
Son, what have you been smokin'??? Get rid of your Jeep without getting another Jeep to replace it???? NO WAY! I PROMISE you that in no time at all you would be regretting that decision.
Get yourself an Unlimited Rubicon (or is it Rubicon Unlimited?). Then you will have more room for cargo. You will have an extremely capable off road vehicle at the same time.
OK, so your break over angle problems will only become greater with an Unlimited, but how often will that keep you from going where you need to go? Ain't there a way around those spots usually? Get a winch and pull yourself over those spots.
As far as your current Jeep, you DO have your rear and front sway bars connected, don't you?
I have no experience with body lifts, but have heard over and over from many sources that more than one inch for a body lift is not good. Maybe you are getting a lot more body sway because of the two inch body lift????
Pete, that OME suspension lift may be something you should consider. It seems that everyone who has one is very happy with it, and most claim that the ride is better than stock.
As far as your gearing, those 3.07 gears really suck. Not much to do there but re-gear, and that ain't cheap.
I don't see any mention of track bar relocation, front or rear....... it's something that needs to be taken care of.
By all means go back to 31s when the 33s wear out. 33s buy you very little except for looks and they can add a few headaches. You can then lose the body lift, and if you want a well balanced system I'd also lose the spring spacers and spring for a set of OME springs (that's a lot of springs!).
I agree with Mac totally. I do not at all see the point of 33s over 31s if you have to regear. Not at all worth it. Ditch the body lift or go with a 1 inch and get some OME springs.
Thanks for all the opinions, I've got a lot to consider. Will probably get rid of the body lift and the spring spacers plus drop down to 31's.
Mac- Nope, haven't done anything with the track bar(s). In fact, I didn't even realize there were two! If I get rid of the spacers and put in the 'heavy' OME springs, would I still need to mess around with the track bars? I read somewhere that the 'heavy' OME springs aren't meant to be a lift, but some people see an inch lift because of the different spring rate compared to stock. Luckily I don't need to buy a whole OME kit since I've got the shocks already.
Tom- Yes, I reconnect the sway bars before venturing onto pavement. Though I did try without once for the fun of it, I thought it was going to tip over on the first corner! Another reason to replace the stock springs.
For a replacement, if I go that route, I've been looking at 2002 LR Discovery Series II's. They have solid axles, are narrow enough to get to my destinations and have just the right amount of interior space I am looking for.
Pete, if you enjoy trips to the dealership/mechanic then the Disco II is the vehicle for you. They are notoriously unreliable. They do look good and their poor resale value makes them particularly attractive when looking at used models. Don't fall for it. If there is one thing I've decided, it's this, I'll never be without a Jeep again! I love Corvettes and have always wanted one, but it will never come at the expense of not having a Jeep sitting next to it in the driveway--and of course, a Jeep Grand Cherokee for more than two people. ;-)
The HD OME springs (which I would recommend) will give you between 2.5" and 3" of lift. You'll need to mess around with track bars with any suspension lift.
I use the OME relocation bracket at the rear with no problem, but some people have issues with it. At the front I redrilled (and reinforced) the trackbar location hole, but adjustable trackbars are available as an alternative.
You'll find the OME components work extremely well together if you take that route.
"........I love Corvettes and have always wanted one, but it will never come at the expense of not having a Jeep sitting next to it in the driveway..........
I feel the same way........... the AMG H1 hasn't caused me to want to get rid of the Wrangler!
Even in its stock form, like my Sport, the SWB Wrangler is skittish in the wind. I've had to slow up to 50 or less when the wind gusts get around 40 - 50 mph (and have still been white knuckled). The Unlimited is SO much more stable in the wind - it handles like a regular car. I can hear the wind through the soft top, and I can feel it up to a point, but not enough to slow down much. And while it isn't a 4 door, the extra room is wonderful. I'd probably be looking real hard at the Unlimited Rubicon if I were in your place. That's one of the first vehicles I'll look at when I am able to replace the Sport.
I'm really leaning towards no lift and 31's once these tires wear out.
mtngal- Sounds like the same thing in the wind, 40-60 mpg gusts, it was scary. I know having four people in it doesn't help either because it raises the center of gravity. The Columbia River Gorge is notorious for wind, it can be an adventure in a SWB Jeep! The Unlimited sounds great, but if I make the switch to something else it have four doors.
keats- Thanks for the comments. Yes, the Disco's seem to be almost legendary for their quirks (some might call them problems). The major components seem to be very reliable (engine, tranny, suspension, frame, body). In other words, you should be able to drive out if something happens. But they did have trouble-years spotted throughout it's history. Some years had electrical problems, some years sticky valves, etc.
Part of their bad-rap they have may be from the non-off-road-driver who buys one and expects perfection, which may be justified at the price a new one costs! But finds sloppy QC in final assembly required several initial bugs to get fixed. Once these problems are fixed, they tend to stay fixed. So, buying a Disco II with 40K on it may less troublesome than a new one. And, like you said about their resale value, getting a $45K rig for $20K three years later doesn't sound bad.
If I go this route, I will consider a JGC too. Kind of funny, some Disco owners have said to stay away from JGC's unless you like lots of trips to the dealer for service I haven't owned either, but have enjoyed driving them both.
I think as long as an individual enjoys working on their rig (which I do), whether its a Jeep or Land Rover, they're both going to be fun vehicles to play with outdoors. I've got time to contemplate the whole thing.
Mac- Do you know if any of the OME springs just provide the same height as stock springs? I'm leaning towards no lift, no track bar adjustment, just a simple configuration that might have a little stiffer spring for better weight handling characteristics. Maybe I'll just try the stock springs on their own once I remove everything and see what it feels like.
As far as I remember, all the OME springs are designed to provide a nominal 2" lift. The different ratings are for are for differing vehicle weights i.e. hardtop or soft top etc. If you regularly carry passengers I'd get the HDs, regardless of vehicle spec.
If I was choosing between a Disco and a Wrangler, I'd go with the Wrangler, primarily because of it's compact demensions, reliability, and simplicity(if you had all the parts you could assemble one over a long weekend). OTOH, Disco vs. GC would be a toss-up; neither has a sterling reliabilty record. I'm a hardcore DIY guy so I'd probably lean toward the Disco-but there's no clear winner in that matchup.
Today I got to see at least 30-40 Corvettes on the freeway (is there a show/convention in Las Vegas this weekend?). It was really interesting to watch them go by and compare body styles and expecially tail lights as they zoomed by me driving the Sport.
This is the first time I've driven the '98 Sport on a long drive since we bought the Unlimited. My hubby prefers the newer seats, I prefer the older ones. My back definitely prefers the auto to the 5 speed. And while it didn't seem as skittish as I remember, it is as skittish in the wind.
You can bag on the tube bumpers if you must I have them on my Elle’mae because a friend of mine has them on his CJ (which is set up for running off road). I chose them because he was rear ended by a Lexus a few years ago, and when he got out and looked at the damage he found a scratch on his bumper. Unfortunately, for the Lexus owner, the Lexus had to be towed away because the damage was so sever. This may not be an important consideration for most, but driving the So Cal freeways it was for me. I only wish the rear bumper on my wife’s Altama was as strong. It will be in the shop for the next 14 days +/- having the rear end replaced, because she was rear ended by a big rig.
I love my Altama, but American car builders are really putting out some good products now. DC has really been surprising me lately with the products they are producing (and I have not been a Chrysler fan in the past they may have put out some good vehicles in the 60s maybe early 70s). It reminds me of the old days when America build the best cars in the world (in my opinion). I know we are not there yet But we are getting there.
Test drove what may be my first Wrangler yesterday, a brand new 05 Blue Unlimited - what a vehicle! Man I felt like it could go anywhere. Price is reduced (w/ DCX incentives) to approx $21,600 including the 6 spd (awesome), drk khaki soft top, 7 spkr option, security group and mats. I know its a pretty good deal but I am not crazy about the color (I like the khaki ext.) plus it has those awful looking (IMO) grey flares (can those be swapped by the dealer to the black now?). I also asked for dealer quotes from 4 dealers through Edmunds (Thanks Edmunds!) and am waiting to hear back. I've been back and forth since last fall trying to decide b/w the Unlimited, the new Taco or Frontier but after driving two of them so far, the Wrangler has won me over hands down! Plus it will work better for me at work.
As you all probably know the vehicle comes stock w/ 15" rims, will 31's fit w/o a lift or should I budget for the full OME setup mentioned above and wait?
Any and all comments are welcome. Thanks!
Cannot wait to be driving one of these on a daily basis!
Yeah, Pete, I'm sure you're right about the expectations of new buyers. I do love the looks of the Discos and if you can wrench on it yourself then that would be attractive.
We also have a 2004 Grand Cherokee with Selec Trac 4wd. I bought it new nearly two years ago and have had 0 problems with it. The Grands got a bad rap, deservedly so, for the 1999 thru 2000 years. Numberous problems and they didn't fix the break caliper issue until 2002. So there were problems, but DC apparently addressed all of them by the time they made mine. *lol*
If you're a wrencher then a Grand like mine would be a good choice as well. Simple inline 6 engine, minimal electronics, simple 4wd system, all reasons I chose that model and stayed away from the V8 "Limiteds". I plan on keeping for a long, long time. And why do they call them "Limited" if they are the most prevalent vehicle on the lot?
That reminds me of a quote from an old and very cheesy action movie. The villain says, in his own defense, "Countries? There are no more countries, it's all corporations!"
Well, spring is in the air and that means it time for the soft top! Before I put it on, I'm placing an order for a hard top cover and a cab cover for the weekend. I think I'm also going to order some Jeeperman skids so when I finally make it up to Turkey Bay with Ole Tom I won't get rocker damage. The stock rocker guards Rubi came with just don't seem adequate.
What plans are you folks making for top-down weather?
There are no more countries, it's all corporations!
lol, ain't that the truth.
I think Glen's Jeep funded more North American jobs than a Land Rover purchase would, even if some of the profits now go east. Lots of US stockholders own DCX too. But it sure is hard to define an American car anymore.
I'm with ya on the flares. Thank God, they went back to black flares and tops in December last year. Just find one made after the switch back to black.
I guess Patriot Blue is the only blue they have now, and I think it looks nice. However, my advice to you is not to "settle" for anything. Get EXACTLY what you want. If you are not crazy about the blue, get your favorite color. You are spending WAY too much money not get exactly what you want.
Have you considered a factory order? I ordered my Thelma Jane, and I am glad that I did.
By ordering, you get the following advantages:
1. You get exactly what you want for trim and options.
2. The vehicle is YOURS from the day it rolls off the line.
3. The window sticker has YOUR name on it, which is a small thing, but a pretty cool thing.
4. The waiting is torture, but it is also fun at the same time.
5. You are driving your current vehicle depreciation-free. You have made your deal, and, assuming you don't damage the vehicle, it will not drop a penny in value while you are waiting for the new one.
6. (almost forgot this one, and it is a BIGGIE). By getting offers at different dealerships on the very same new Jeep, and having the very same trade-in vehicle, of course, you get a DIRECT COMPARISON on the deals you are offered. They can't pull that old "yeah, but this Jeep has more options than the one they are trying to sell you at the other place, so ours is really a better deal."
Just the Old Tomster's two cents worth.
And, yes, you can put 31" x 10.50" tires on that Jeep without installing any kind of lift. You should get a REAL NICE trade-in at the tire store on those factory GSA's, by the way.
Here's a partial quote of my post #3160 when I got Thelma Jane some 31 x 10.50 BFG AT's. It seems that others in here have not been able to find tire stores in their areas that give deals like this on trade-in, but it is worth checking around.
"Hey everyone! Took Thelma today to have some 31 inch tires put on her. I got the 31 x 10.5 BF Goodrich All Terrain TA's, like old Tonkadave did.
I couldn't believe the deal they gave me, and I jumped all over it. It was going to be $641 for five new tires, mounted, balanced, and tax included. I was ready to forget it, but I went to the tire store to let them see what they could allow me on Thelma's 30's for trade in.
The spare was new, and they gave me $95 for it. The four that were on Thelma had 10,500+ miles on them, and they gave me $83 apiece on them!
Bottom line, I got five new 31 x 10.50 BF Goodrich All Terrain TA's mounted, balanced, and tax included for $188.63."
Good luck, and please, by all means, keep us posted! I get about as excited when someone else gets a new Jeep as I did when I got Thlema Jane.
Hey Keats!! Happy Spring!! My soft top is going on next week. I am also getting a cab cover. I now live in a condo with no garage and on nice nights I will just leave the top down and the cover on. I wish I had gotton my soft top with tinted windows. Bad planning on my part. I also will be getting a bikini top for fishing trips to Cape Cod. I have no idea why those two things are related. Its just what I do. I will be taking a trip from Connecticut to Toronto in April in the Jeep. Hopefully with the top down all the way. Of course my wife may not agree since she will be a passenger but time will tell. A question that has been asked before but perhaps someone has had luck with this---has anyone had their soft top windows tinted after purchase? I know everyone says it can't be done but perhaps someone has tried. Also, what is a hard top cover? Is it for storage? Go Easy, John
John, I'm guessing you'd have better luck buying replacement windows that are already tinted. I see them on Ebay all the time. I hope it warms up soon (here in CT). I'm beyond ready to put the soft-top back on.
I think I've said it before, but having both tops is great. There's a little excitement in anticipating putting the soft top back on. Actually, I felt the same way back in October when I put the hard-top on. Makes it feel like a different vehicle.
Yep, Dan and John, that's the cover I ordered today from Quadratec--also ordered a Jeep key chain and sun glasses holder! I used a tarp as well last year and kept my top in the garage, but it still got dusty.
I almost ordered the Bestop cab cover from Quadratec, but I did a search on Ebay and found a Jeep dealer selling the Mopar cab cover for $95 plus shipping. I jumped on it. The cheapest I had previously found the Mopar cover was $149. It also comes with a storage bag, which the Bestop does not have, and it will fit with either top on, though I don't know why you would need it to.
John, my plan is to use the cab cover on weekends. I wished for one most of the time last summer. Memphis gets very hot around mid-June so I have to keep the top up during the week, but on weekends I can usually tough it out.
My plan is to put on the soft top next weekend.
That was another $300 today. This Jeep thing is a just empty every pocket deal...Next up are the Jeeperman skids, may order those this week and then the MORE hi-clearance bumper. Then a winch.
This weekend I discovered just how used to some of the little things we got on the Unlimited. As we were leaving home and it was sprinkling, I looked up at the mirror for the outside temp - I wondered about possible ice. Not there! Then when the radio faded out I realized I had left the Roady in the office - so I had to hunt for a station (sigh). Finally, it sure got tiring driving without cruise control.
Moral of the story - when you're buying a vehicle, don't hesitate to get the little things you want - you get used to them very quickly, and some of them just might be those things that make the vehicle worth it.
While I'm not crazy about the grey flares and top - my '98 Sport now has grey flares. They started out as black, but have faded and I haven't done anything about it.
Paul, Thanks for the info. Could you give me a little more detail on the budget boost you were talking about? Yea, I am sure there will be some times where it's necessary to go off-road, so I'm thinking the budget boost will work from what I'm understanding. Also, could you give me some more info on the OME lift you might get, and the prices. Thanks again I really appreciate it.
Thanks for the info. Could you give me a little more detail on the rubicon budget boost, and the OME lift? Also, could you give me some prices. Thanks I appriciate it.
Hello all! My first (and hopefully not last) post to this forum. Last September I purchased my 2004 Rubicon and have really enjoyed it. it performed well this winter in Missouri and my wife and I took it to Moab and Colorado on a great camping trip.
I have the dual top option and now that spring has arrived I am inquiring what all you guys do with your hard tops in the "off season". I hate to keep it outside in the elements and I thought about building a lawn shed in the back yard to hold it and the mower, etc.
I really enjoy this forum (I discovered it about a week ago) and am so glad I bought the jeep.
My favorite jeep experience so far was taking my 80 year old grandfather out for a ride. He drove a jeep in europe in WW2 and really liked them. Told me they hadn't changed too much and he liked that. He had some great stories involving him and his jeeps. Thanks for any advice.
Aren't Jeeps the coolest things in the world? Sounds like you are truly enjoying that Rubicon.
Make yourself at home here with us, and...
let's talk Jeep!
Oh, I store my hardtop on the garage floor.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
P.S. I just checked your profile, and I see that you are in O'Fallon, MO. That means Turkey Bay in LBL, where I do my wheelin', is not out of the question for ya. I think it would be about 3.5 hrs for you. It's a great place to wheel.
I envy you your trip to Moab - I want to go there SO much! One of these days...
The hard top on the Sport has never been off of it because I don't have a garage to put it in. Storage is a problem - if you have a way of getting into your back yard then a shed would be a great idea (too bad my back yard is all hill). Just be aware that it is really heavy and a 2 person (at least) job.
So, over the weekend I fixed the wiring for the soundbar (pushed pins). After reconnecting the battery - her idle ran rough - almost stalled backing up. Since I bought it used, I went straight to the autoparts store to have the battery test - bad battery. Put in a new one - and it drives like a whole new jeep- pick up is better, shifts smoother, just feels better.
This weekend is plugs. The cap and wires look to be in real good shape - how do I tell if they need replacing. I am going to replace the plugs regardless if they look good - so I have piece of mind.
Also- AC not working - the compressor clutch kicks on but hot air comes out of the vents- not mild air but hot - I need some help here as to what it might be. Thanks
Its interesting how such a small vehicle can make you reach in the pocket and make you smile at the same time. Very dangerous combination. Have you done anything creative with the graphics on your Jeep? Thanks for the info on the cover. I never knew it existed but it figures that it does. Your a busy guy. Jeeps will keep you employed. Go Easy, John
You can go to Rubicon Express's website for details about it, but basically you retain your stock springs, but you get spacers for them. That is the extent of a spacer lift. But the RE BB setup has shocks included that have a bit longer travel to allow for the increased height of the spring + spacer setup. These are available from most 4x4 shops for around 200.00 or so.
I'm looking at the OME Deluxe lift setup from www.dpgoffroad.com. it runs about 835.00. Dirk Sanders runs the place and knows his stuff with lifts and jeeps. You can call him and tell him what you are wanting. The basic lift is 649 I think and will allow you to fit 31's with some extra space...
I leave mine hanging on the hoist in the garage. I took pictures of my jeep and hoist system to post. Unfortunately, my 14 year old took them to make a website for me (she is pretty good at it) and misplaced them somewhere in the abyss we used call her bedroom. They will turn up sooner or later.
Comments
Keats~ Thanks for the info on bumpers, I agree about the tubes, not much you can do with a double tube. Time to start saving for a nice rock bumper! Gotta keep the mud flaps though. i live in NY and my corners in the rear and the fender extension under the unlimited tag on the front quarter get incased in ice and i don't want to do any damage so the muds gotta stay to keep that from happening.
There is also a budget boost, which consists of longer shocks and spring spacers. Rubicon Express makes one for about 200 I think. This gives you the same result as a spacer lift, but the shocks can handle longer travel. So if you go offroad at all on trails and perhaps a bit more tough stuff, your axles will articulate a bit better and not be limited by the stock shock (that you would use on a spacer lift alone).
A full blown lift usually consists of new springs, shocks, trackbar brackets (or adjustable trackbars), disconnects for the front sway bar (and maybe even new control arms). These can be VERY pricey and you REALLY want to consider all impacts it has on other systems, such as steering, transfer case/driveline, etc.
A spacer or budget boost would probably be the best way to go for you. If I were you, I'd probably go for the budget boost. You never know when you'd want to go offroading.
I have a 97 also and am seriously considering the Old Man Emu (OME) lift. It rides better than stock, from what I hear from trusted sources on here, and gives me about 2.5-3" of lift. My plan is to go to 32" tires (nothing bigger for me on the 4cylinder and the D35/D30 axle combination).
-Paul
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4536036874&category=628- 5#ebayphotohosting
Thanks,
Jeff
But things like lifts fall into that category in some ways. While they have definite gains for certain things (ground clearance - I have a nice dent in the stock skid plate where I scraped on a rock because I don't have a lift) they aren't for everyone. Our our discussion earlier about the "death wobble" showed, and Paul's post about the impacts of a full blown lift has on a vehicle to see that Jeep mods can do lots of harm.
Bottom line - know what you are doing and why you are doing it. Weigh all the factors to see if it is really worth it. Every time I think about doing a small lift to gain a bit more ground clearance, I add up the dollars involved and decide those dollars are really needed elsewhere (like trying to fix the leak in the house).
Everything I've read suggests that a BL and MML change things the least, but add a little space in the wheel wells and of course, opens up a new world of skid options, i.e. Kilby, and for anyone with an 03 or 04 the Nth Degree Tummy Tucker...
For some background, my Jeep is a daily driver around town (90% of that is my wife) and a weekend off-roader driven by me. Around town, 40-45 mph max. Off-road, unpaved forest service and logging roads (no mudding, I try to tread lightly). A couple/few times a year it sees an ORV park with sand dunes. I usually rely on the Jeep to get me to most remote area possible, at which point I hike, cross-country ski or just camp out.
Some things that are important (not really prioritized, since I'd like everything here to be equally represented, as subjective as that may be): ground clearance, in the winter I venture into very deep snow, the rest of the year it's all about the breakover angle (maybe a little on the departure angle too); traction in snow and sand (limited slip seems to be providing that); suspension articulation while off-road; on-road driving characteristics, I'd like it to be safe and not so twitchy; and it would be nice if I could use all 5 gears.
Here's what I've done to my '02 Wrangler X 5-speed: Spring spacers, 2"; OME shocks, the ones for 2" lift; 33x10.5 BFG MT tires; 2" body lift; front sway bar quick disco's; and rock bars from Turbo City.
There's a few things I don't like about this configuration, which are usually noticed above 50 mph, I have no complaints off-road (well, that track bar tail-wagging trait is real annoying, to the point of being comical to passengers).
Gearing is my biggest complaint since this thing has 3.07 gears. I can only use 5th gear when going down hill.
Getting this Jeep to track in a straight line is challenging, to say the least. It doesn't pull (alignment is right on, had it checked), it just wanders. The slightest cross-wind will push it quickly around in the lane. Heavy winds have been so dangerous I've had to slow to 45 mph to stay my lane. When I make steering corrections it's real twitchy, I think I'd have to get longer control-arms to fix that.
Because I modified my Jeep when it was pretty new I don't remember if it had what I think is a track bar issue before the lift. Basically, when I go over large slow bumps the back of Jeep feels like it wags from left to right. Is this caused by my 2" suspension lift? The other 2" in the body lift shouldn't have an effect.
So, I'm looking for any suggestions that you veteran Jeepers have. I hate to dump any more money into it. So I'm seriously considering replacing these 33" BFG MT's with some 31" BFG AT's when the current ones wear out. At that point I'd remove the body lift and spring spacers and hope it drives better.
That, or I sell it as is and try another vehicle. Which I'm seriously considering, as a little more space inside and 4-doors would be great. I'd miss the Jeep camaraderie that I see here and out in the woods though.
-Pete
-Paul
Get yourself an Unlimited Rubicon (or is it Rubicon Unlimited?). Then you will have more room for cargo. You will have an extremely capable off road vehicle at the same time.
OK, so your break over angle problems will only become greater with an Unlimited, but how often will that keep you from going where you need to go? Ain't there a way around those spots usually? Get a winch and pull yourself over those spots.
As far as your current Jeep, you DO have your rear and front sway bars connected, don't you?
I have no experience with body lifts, but have heard over and over from many sources that more than one inch for a body lift is not good. Maybe you are getting a lot more body sway because of the two inch body lift????
Pete, that OME suspension lift may be something you should consider. It seems that everyone who has one is very happy with it, and most claim that the ride is better than stock.
As far as your gearing, those 3.07 gears really suck. Not much to do there but re-gear, and that ain't cheap.
Whatever you do, STICK WITH JEEPS!!!!
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
By all means go back to 31s when the 33s wear out. 33s buy you very little except for looks and they can add a few headaches. You can then lose the body lift, and if you want a well balanced system I'd also lose the spring spacers and spring for a set of OME springs (that's a lot of springs!).
:--)
Mac- Nope, haven't done anything with the track bar(s). In fact, I didn't even realize there were two! If I get rid of the spacers and put in the 'heavy' OME springs, would I still need to mess around with the track bars? I read somewhere that the 'heavy' OME springs aren't meant to be a lift, but some people see an inch lift because of the different spring rate compared to stock. Luckily I don't need to buy a whole OME kit since I've got the shocks already.
Tom- Yes, I reconnect the sway bars before venturing onto pavement. Though I did try without once for the fun of it, I thought it was going to tip over on the first corner! Another reason to replace the stock springs.
For a replacement, if I go that route, I've been looking at 2002 LR Discovery Series II's. They have solid axles, are narrow enough to get to my destinations and have just the right amount of interior space I am looking for.
-Pete
I use the OME relocation bracket at the rear with no problem, but some people have issues with it. At the front I redrilled (and reinforced) the trackbar location hole, but adjustable trackbars are available as an alternative.
You'll find the OME components work extremely well together if you take that route.
I feel the same way........... the AMG H1 hasn't caused me to want to get rid of the Wrangler!
I'm really leaning towards no lift and 31's once these tires wear out.
mtngal- Sounds like the same thing in the wind, 40-60 mpg gusts, it was scary. I know having four people in it doesn't help either because it raises the center of gravity. The Columbia River Gorge is notorious for wind, it can be an adventure in a SWB Jeep! The Unlimited sounds great, but if I make the switch to something else it have four doors.
-Pete
Part of their bad-rap they have may be from the non-off-road-driver who buys one and expects perfection, which may be justified at the price a new one costs! But finds sloppy QC in final assembly required several initial bugs to get fixed. Once these problems are fixed, they tend to stay fixed. So, buying a Disco II with 40K on it may less troublesome than a new one. And, like you said about their resale value, getting a $45K rig for $20K three years later doesn't sound bad.
If I go this route, I will consider a JGC too. Kind of funny, some Disco owners have said to stay away from JGC's unless you like lots of trips to the dealer for service
I think as long as an individual enjoys working on their rig (which I do), whether its a Jeep or Land Rover, they're both going to be fun vehicles to play with outdoors. I've got time to contemplate the whole thing.
-Pete
Thanks,
-Pete
This is the first time I've driven the '98 Sport on a long drive since we bought the Unlimited. My hubby prefers the newer seats, I prefer the older ones. My back definitely prefers the auto to the 5 speed. And while it didn't seem as skittish as I remember, it is as skittish in the wind.
Glen
I love my Altama, but American car builders are really putting out some good products now. DC has really been surprising me lately with the products they are producing (and I have not been a Chrysler fan in the past they may have put out some good vehicles in the 60s maybe early 70s). It reminds me of the old days when America build the best cars in the world (in my opinion). I know we are not there yet But we are getting there.
Glen
What is an American car? (CNN/Money)
Just checking :-)
Steve, Host
I also asked for dealer quotes from 4 dealers through Edmunds (Thanks Edmunds!) and am waiting to hear back. I've been back and forth since last fall trying to decide b/w the Unlimited, the new Taco or Frontier but after driving two of them so far, the Wrangler has won me over hands down! Plus it will work better for me at work.
As you all probably know the vehicle comes stock w/ 15" rims, will 31's fit w/o a lift or should I budget for the full OME setup mentioned above and wait?
Any and all comments are welcome. Thanks!
Cannot wait to be driving one of these on a daily basis!
We also have a 2004 Grand Cherokee with Selec Trac 4wd. I bought it new nearly two years ago and have had 0 problems with it. The Grands got a bad rap, deservedly so, for the 1999 thru 2000 years. Numberous problems and they didn't fix the break caliper issue until 2002. So there were problems, but DC apparently addressed all of them by the time they made mine. *lol*
If you're a wrencher then a Grand like mine would be a good choice as well. Simple inline 6 engine, minimal electronics, simple 4wd system, all reasons I chose that model and stayed away from the V8 "Limiteds". I plan on keeping for a long, long time. And why do they call them "Limited" if they are the most prevalent vehicle on the lot?
That reminds me of a quote from an old and very cheesy action movie. The villain says, in his own defense, "Countries? There are no more countries, it's all corporations!"
What plans are you folks making for top-down weather?
lol, ain't that the truth.
I think Glen's Jeep funded more North American jobs than a Land Rover purchase would, even if some of the profits now go east. Lots of US stockholders own DCX too. But it sure is hard to define an American car anymore.
Steve, Host
I'm with ya on the flares. Thank God, they went back to black flares and tops in December last year. Just find one made after the switch back to black.
I guess Patriot Blue is the only blue they have now, and I think it looks nice. However, my advice to you is not to "settle" for anything. Get EXACTLY what you want. If you are not crazy about the blue, get your favorite color. You are spending WAY too much money not get exactly what you want.
Have you considered a factory order? I ordered my Thelma Jane, and I am glad that I did.
By ordering, you get the following advantages:
1. You get exactly what you want for trim and options.
2. The vehicle is YOURS from the day it rolls off the line.
3. The window sticker has YOUR name on it, which is a small thing, but a pretty cool thing.
4. The waiting is torture, but it is also fun at the same time.
5. You are driving your current vehicle depreciation-free. You have made your deal, and, assuming you don't damage the vehicle, it will not drop a penny in value while you are waiting for the new one.
6. (almost forgot this one, and it is a BIGGIE). By getting offers at different dealerships on the very same new Jeep, and having the very same trade-in vehicle, of course, you get a DIRECT COMPARISON on the deals you are offered. They can't pull that old "yeah, but this Jeep has more options than the one they are trying to sell you at the other place, so ours is really a better deal."
Just the Old Tomster's two cents worth.
And, yes, you can put 31" x 10.50" tires on that Jeep without installing any kind of lift. You should get a REAL NICE trade-in at the tire store on those factory GSA's, by the way.
Here's a partial quote of my post #3160 when I got Thelma Jane some 31 x 10.50 BFG AT's. It seems that others in here have not been able to find tire stores in their areas that give deals like this on trade-in, but it is worth checking around.
"Hey everyone! Took Thelma today to have some 31 inch tires put on her. I got the 31 x 10.5 BF Goodrich All Terrain TA's, like old Tonkadave did.
I couldn't believe the deal they gave me, and I jumped all over it. It was going to be $641 for five new tires, mounted, balanced, and tax included. I was ready to forget it, but I went to the tire store to let them see what they could allow me on Thelma's 30's for trade in.
The spare was new, and they gave me $95 for it. The four that were on Thelma had 10,500+ miles on them, and they gave me $83 apiece on them!
Bottom line, I got five new 31 x 10.50 BF Goodrich All Terrain TA's mounted, balanced, and tax included for $188.63."
Good luck, and please, by all means, keep us posted! I get about as excited when someone else gets a new Jeep as I did when I got Thlema Jane.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
I hate how reliant we are on the rest of the world! Especially Saudi oil. We'll be screwed if they ever decide to cut off our oil supply.
Sorry to get political and off (Jeep) subject.
-Dan
I think I've said it before, but having both tops is great. There's a little excitement in anticipating putting the soft top back on. Actually, I felt the same way back in October when I put the hard-top on. Makes it feel like a different vehicle.
I think this is might be the cover Keats is talking about (or something similar).
Any opinions on these? I'm thinking about picking one up myself. Last year, my hardtop just sat under a tarp all summer. I had a lot of cleaning to do when October came around!
http://www.quadratec.com/cgi-bin/sgin0101.exe?T1=11091+100&UREQA=1&UREQB=2&UREQC=3&UREQD=4- &FNM=00&UID=2005032018391646
-Dan
I almost ordered the Bestop cab cover from Quadratec, but I did a search on Ebay and found a Jeep dealer selling the Mopar cab cover for $95 plus shipping. I jumped on it. The cheapest I had previously found the Mopar cover was $149. It also comes with a storage bag, which the Bestop does not have, and it will fit with either top on, though I don't know why you would need it to.
John, my plan is to use the cab cover on weekends. I wished for one most of the time last summer. Memphis gets very hot around mid-June so I have to keep the top up during the week, but on weekends I can usually tough it out.
My plan is to put on the soft top next weekend.
That was another $300 today. This Jeep thing is a just empty every pocket deal...Next up are the Jeeperman skids, may order those this week and then the MORE hi-clearance bumper. Then a winch.
Moral of the story - when you're buying a vehicle, don't hesitate to get the little things you want - you get used to them very quickly, and some of them just might be those things that make the vehicle worth it.
While I'm not crazy about the grey flares and top - my '98 Sport now has grey flares. They started out as black, but have faded and I haven't done anything about it.
Thanks for the info. Could you give me a little more detail on the budget boost you were talking about? Yea, I am sure there will be some times where it's necessary to go off-road, so I'm thinking the budget boost will work from what I'm understanding. Also, could you give me some more info on the OME lift you might get, and the prices. Thanks again I really appreciate it.
Zach
Thanks for the info. Could you give me a little more detail on the rubicon budget boost, and the OME lift? Also, could you give me some prices. Thanks I appriciate it.
Zach
I have the dual top option and now that spring has arrived I am inquiring what all you guys do with your hard tops in the "off season". I hate to keep it outside in the elements and I thought about building a lawn shed in the back yard to hold it and the mower, etc.
I really enjoy this forum (I discovered it about a week ago) and am so glad I bought the jeep.
My favorite jeep experience so far was taking my 80 year old grandfather out for a ride. He drove a jeep in europe in WW2 and really liked them. Told me they hadn't changed too much and he liked that. He had some great stories involving him and his jeeps. Thanks for any advice.
Aren't Jeeps the coolest things in the world? Sounds like you are truly enjoying that Rubicon.
Make yourself at home here with us, and...
let's talk Jeep!
Oh, I store my hardtop on the garage floor.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
P.S. I just checked your profile, and I see that you are in O'Fallon, MO. That means Turkey Bay in LBL, where I do my wheelin', is not out of the question for ya. I think it would be about 3.5 hrs for you. It's a great place to wheel.
Check out my website about Turkey Bay...
http://home.earthlink.net/~tsjay49/
The hard top on the Sport has never been off of it because I don't have a garage to put it in. Storage is a problem - if you have a way of getting into your back yard then a shed would be a great idea (too bad my back yard is all hill). Just be aware that it is really heavy and a 2 person (at least) job.
This weekend is plugs. The cap and wires look to be in real good shape - how do I tell if they need replacing. I am going to replace the plugs regardless if they look good - so I have piece of mind.
Also- AC not working - the compressor clutch kicks on but hot air comes out of the vents- not mild air but hot - I need some help here as to what it might be. Thanks
I'm looking at the OME Deluxe lift setup from www.dpgoffroad.com. it runs about 835.00. Dirk Sanders runs the place and knows his stuff with lifts and jeeps. You can call him and tell him what you are wanting. The basic lift is 649 I think and will allow you to fit 31's with some extra space...
-Paul
A/C: Almost certainly needs recharging because it leaked. Get the leak fixed then have it recharged. Take it to an independent a/c shop for this one.
I am going to to the cap wires rotor and plugs next weekend. I have the Haynes, so I am going to use that.
I leave mine hanging on the hoist in the garage. I took pictures of my jeep and hoist system to post. Unfortunately, my 14 year old took them to make a website for me (she is pretty good at it) and misplaced them somewhere in the abyss we used call her bedroom. They will turn up sooner or later.