Not many years ago there was a real Prima Donna that owned a one man shop and he would ONLY work on Peugeots. He knew that most shops hated working on them and he took full advantage of that.
He was great with lectures and it was almost like he was doing you a favor if he were to work on your Peugeot.
To his credit, he did good work and he was honest.
I've seen the same correlation and I know exactly what you are talking about.
Oh I'm sure. I was saying that in today's world that kind of behavior might not work as well. I suppose if you are repairing Citroens or Morris Minors you can abuse your customers to death because they have no one else to go to.
Working on some of the more "unique" makes can have a tendency to make a repairman a bit "cranky", so I'd think a little bit of odd behavior might be the norm in many cases...
So they really didn't need the business. It's a nice place to be - you can be a jerk, but still profit, as you offer something apparently matched by nobody else. My current independent MB mechanic could be abrasive to some people I bet - pull up in an 00-02 S600 and he might tell you where to park it :shades:
It was funny sometimes to hear Dieter yell at a customer and watch the customer cower in shame and apologize.
Reminds me of that great Seinfeld episode where Jerry's BMW mechanic yells at Jerry for poor maintenance on it. Then takes off in it when Jerry wants to take it somewhere else. "I have no faith in this gasket" lol :P
A little bit ago an elderly lady came into the shop. Someone else has heard my show and sent her here. Except she had the name of the guy that did the show before I took it over. Her story was that she is hard of hearing, and someone else told her that it was a bad fuel pump. So she went and bought one, and now is going around and trying to get estimates on having it installed.
If you want to find out just how bad things can go, tempt the fates by installing carry in parts to a car that you didn't diagnose. :sick:
If we install her part, we are liable for the repair, no matter what anyone wants to try and state in a disclaimer. Keep in mind, she allegedly can't hear the noise but I'll give you dollars to donuts that who-ever does this for her will have her back on their doorstep with "problems she will be sure they caused" on her 1994 Caprice.
For us, the labor alone isn't high enough to make ends meet. Right there its "no-deal", we don't install carry in parts. Our parts profits provide a portion of the revenues that we have to generate in order to stay in business, we should never have to apologize for needing to do that. Our parts suppliers back our warranties, parts that we didn't sell lose that support. We won't do work that we can't stand behind, that also makes this a "no-deal".
It took five minutes to try and explain this to her, she simply either couldn't or wouldn't listen. Poor communication at the desk, sorry, again "no-deal". I won't do work for someone who is likely to leave not knowing for sure exactly what we did for him/her and why.
Our parts profits provide a portion of the revenues that we have to generate in order to stay in business, we should never have to apologize for needing to do that.
What's the typical mark-up on parts... about 50-75%? I gather from the above quote, customers complain a lot over parts profit margin. Taken at face value, it does seems excessive.
Reminds me of a sign I remember seeing as a kid in a auto repair shop...
The $$$ amounts may not be the actual ones on the sign, but you get the idea...
The sign stated:
Repair Labor Cost - $20.00/Hour
If you watch - $30.00/Hour
If you help - $50.00/Hour
Dealing with old folks can be exasperating at times, especially since some of these people are living 30-40 years in the past, not taking into account the inflation of costs over the years. Then again, I've seen a couple of instances in which an old person was very well aware of the cost of things, but playing the "age" card and pretending not to understand. Sometimes, its all but impossible to tell.
Popcorn and a soda at the movie theater? A beer at a sports event? A pair of jeans at a department store?
What's the typical mark-up on parts... about 50-75%?
We work off of the suggested list price. Some dealers give us 20% off, some 30%. We have some that don't give us a break on the price at all, that is usually inconvenient to say the least.
Management training companies advise shops to use a pricing matrix that generally slides the percentage down as the cost goes up. Those work well as far as the accountant is concerned but are probably what you are referring to. The thing is, without knowing what a shop's cost of doing business is, it's not something that anyone can judge from the outside and be truly "fair".
Back in 1999, my grandmother lost her license because she couldn't pass the eye test, and she gave me her '85 LeSabre. I had to put it through inspection. It didn't need much, just the typical headlight adjustment, a battery tie-down, and ball joints. Can't remember if it was the upper or lower, but it was whatever ones are cheaper and easier to get to.
Anyway, the mechanic told me that the cost for the ball joints was $52. I asked him if that was apiece, but I almost did a double-take when he said no, that was for BOTH! So, either those ball joints were dirt cheap to begin with, or the mechanic was giving me a great price. As a rough reference point, (I'm sure it's hard to compare though), I had bought an upper ball joint for a '68 Dart back in 1993 and put in on myself, and that sucker was $45, just for one!
So, I imagine the markup for parts is going to vary, from mechanic to mechanic
Man, if I had to replace ball joints and took it to a shop, I wouldn't want them to do the install if it came to $52. Those would have to be the cheapest MiC (made in China) crappy ball joints on the planet! You might get off cheap at first, but it would bite you in the end. :sick:
I paid a similar price ($45) for the each of the ball joints on my Escort. The "lifetime warranty" ones were about $100 each, which seemed insane. Then, I just about lost an arm replacing the darn things. Three years and 45,000 miles later, the boots were cracked and one of the joints was in need of replacement again. Yep, after that labor, I should have definitely gone for the better part the first time.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Man, if I had to replace ball joints and took it to a shop, I wouldn't want them to do the install if it came to $52. Those would have to be the cheapest MiC (made in China) crappy ball joints on the planet! You might get off cheap at first, but it would bite you in the end
Well, with labor it was more; I think it cost about $200-250 to get that car through inspection. Would cheapo, crappy ball joints have been on the market back in 1999?
I didn't think anything of it at the time, because I had often heard that GM (and Ford) parts were usually much cheaper than Mopar parts, simply because they built a lot more of them.
But then, maybe not? For instance, a ball joint for a '67 Dart will fit a '67-76 Dart, Valiant, and '67-69 Barracuda, and possibly other models as well. A ball joint for a '67 Catalina will fit only a full-sized '67-68 Pontiac. Not a '69, not a '66. And not a Chevy, Olds, Buick, or Cadillac. At least, that's what the mechanic had told me.
Well, with labor it was more; I think it cost about $200-250 to get that car through inspection. Would cheapo, crappy ball joints have been on the market back in 1999?
Yea you could find some garbage back then if you tried, but today its insane some of the stuff that is on the market. One incident (not my shop) had ball joints put in a Dodge truck and just over a year later they were bad again. When the next shop tried to install the right parts, the holes in the control arms were too big to hold them securely. Those cheap joints cost the owner of the truck lower control arms.
The indie shop that services my Jeep uses quality parts and charges a fair price. The funny thing is, if I want to go with an aftermarket part, they usually just tell me to get it and they will install it. That was the case when the exhaust manifold cracked on my 1999 Wrangler; I told them I had heard good things about the Banks stainless steel manifold and they were fine with it. Ditto for the Bilstein shocks they later installed for me- although in that case I fully planned to install them myself but I was too busy track-prepping the ti. In fact, they offered to install them. That is a really good shop, and the tech I usually work with is worth his weight in gold. When the alternator light came on in my 1984 T-Bird Turbo I was sure that the alternator was shot. He spent a couple of minutes checking and found a broken ground wire. He fixed it and then didn't want to accept any money- I still paid him $20, as his diagnosis was more than worth that to me.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
That's great. Yeah, sometimes it takes a shop more time to hunt down a part than it's worth. Cracked manifolds are very common on that Jeep, which is why there's an aftermarket part for it---there's money in it.
That's great. Yeah, sometimes it takes a shop more time to hunt down a part than it's worth.
And as I said, I only supply the parts when they want me to; I'm not bringing in white box parts made in some 4th-world country every time they service the car.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
He fixed it and then didn't want to accept any money
He may be a talented technician, but when he forgets that he's running a business, he's failing as a business. These favors add up to schools not attended, and tools not purchased. Those two mean that he has a glass ceiling that will see him go out of business some day, especially as the technology in the cars gets to be more and more difficult to handle. It's not uncommon to see dozens of cars on the lot of a shop like this, but a little snow in the winter reveals just how many of the cars never move. Now sure he's busy, at times he's probably running around with a dozen things on his mind to do. That will be his reason for being too busy to go to classes.
He services your jeep. Does he have the factory scan tool for it? If you lost the keys (assuming it has SKIM/SKREEM) can he aquire and program the car to accept new keys? If he doesn't have the O.E. tools, why not? Are they too expensive?
In the end he isn't going to be around, and he will take others with him as he fails. If he's really worth his weight in gold then talk him into going to management training classes for his sake and that of all of his customers. Before he nice guy's himself right out of there. This is something that is occurring all over the country, the consumers will only be left to wonder what happened to "Bill", he was such a nice guy.
Looks like Florida will be next for the right to repair issue to take root. Funny how it actually goes hand in hand with the questions that I asked from roadburners post.
I let my customers know what manufacturers I can support fully. If they want to buy a product that isn't on my list, then they have to accept that they will have to go to the dealership for some things.
Now that I think back on it, the guys at that repair shop that did the ball joints on my grandmother's LeSabre sent me to the auto parts store that was in the same plaza, to order them! It was Yates Auto Parts, and they said that was where they went first for parts.
Back then, the regular shop I used, which was run by two older guys, didn't do inspections, so for that, they'd send their customers to another shop that was just at the other end of the plaza. So apparently these two shops had a good working relationship with each other.
Maybe that's why they had me order the ball joints myself and save a little money, because I was a long term customer at the other place, so they wanted to do me a favor?
Anyway, I had that LeSabre about 3 1/2 years and never any trouble with the ball joints, but at that point, it was just a spare car that didn't get used all that much. It had about 144,000 miles on it when Grandmom gave it to me, and I got rid of it with 157,000 when the brakes went out on it, and other issues were cropping up, and I just didn't want to put any more money into it.
It's a shame those two old guys retired...I really liked them, and they did good, honest work. But, nobody stays young forever. They sold the place back in 2002, and one of them passed away in 2005. Sad, that he worked al those years and had such a short retirement. But, he seemed like he lived a good, happy, full life.
Retirement isn't all it's cracked up to be for some people. And some people would rather "do their job" than take on management chores. And those are usually two pretty different skill sets.
I think we're going to wind up like the Japanese, and progressively escalating repair costs will just force people to scrap or trade their car more frequently. The stringent periodic vehicle inspection in Japan has had the same result; gets too expensive to pay to pass the inspection.
Retirement isn't all it's cracked up to be for some people.
I'll never "retire. First I wouldn't know what to do all day long. But even so, here isn't a dime put away towards it and we burn through every penney we generate just keeping the shop going so when the last day comes, what my wife will have will be what's left after the auctioneer takes his cut.
Well, I think what he meant, and I could be wrong, is that it looks pricey compared to what you can buy the parts for yourself ("taken at face value"), because folks can't see the whole picture without some assistance. As you said here, it costs more because you can guarantee the part and the work. That just isn't readily apparent when looking at the surface (pricing only).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
He may be a talented technician, but when he forgets that he's running a business, he's failing as a business. These favors add up to schools not attended, and tools not purchased. Those two mean that he has a glass ceiling that will see him go out of business some day, especially as the technology in the cars gets to be more and more difficult to handle.
And I thought that I was the one who criticized techs... The tech in question is an employee of the shop.
He services your jeep. Does he have the factory scan tool for it? If you lost the keys (assuming it has SKIM/SKREEM) can he aquire and program the car to accept new keys? If he doesn't have the O.E. tools, why not? Are they too expensive?
Wow, I never asked; I guess that shop is almost as incompetent as me.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Fair is a very subjective term, but in the case of this shop they don't charge as much as the Jeep dealer but they do charge more than Kwicky Boob and other franchise shops. Back in 2011 they charged $425 to perform a 60,000 mile service; I provided Mobil 1 lubricants for the engine, F/R diffs, transfer case, and manual gearbox. They supplied the plugs, plug wires, and cap/rotor.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
In the town where I grew up, there were several "old time" shops that were owned by "old school" mechanics.
These guys know how to "fix" things. They knew how to rebuild the front end of a 1954 Chevy, kingpins and all. They knew how to pull a torque tube and install a reseal kit on a Dynaflow. They didn't throw on a rebuilt alternator.
They took your old alternator apart on their workbench and carefully rebuilt it.
These guys would never have installed a rebuilt engine that they had no control over quality. They would rebuild the engine that was already in the car. They might farm out the block to a neighboorhood machine shop for a rebore but they did the rest.
Today, those shops are either gone, converted to a mexican restaurant or are now run by others. The many gas stations that used to have a "Mechanic on duty" have been leveled and turned into strip malls or the former shop bays have been turned into mini marts.
" You can go back to the same PLACE but you can't go back to the same TIME"
And I thought that I was the one who criticized techs... The tech in question is an employee of the shop.
While I'm the first to defend them against innapropriate outside criticism, there are internal trade issues that can only be dealt with by not beating around the bush.
You praised him for doing something for next to nothing, and then you paid him directly for it instead of it going through the shop and being charged for correctly. Most shop owners would view that as competing against them from inside their own walls. While he is on their clock, his time is no different than a bottle of antifreeze on the shelf. You wouldn't just take one of those without paying for it and leave would you? I have seen techs terminated for doing exactly what he did, take payment for fixing a customers car, without a repair order being written.
You might think that's crazy, but eventually something goes wrong, and someone isn't happy with the result. Imagine what it looks like to the owner when he can't find an R.O. to reference what was done the last time and why. Now picture him having to warranty the repair" because it was done at his shop.
I watched one company have to provide a warranty engine for a vehicle sold by one of the employees, all because the customer met the tech at the shop. (The shop was a chain store and does not sell cars). In the end, it cost the tech his job.
He services your jeep. Does he have the factory scan tool for it? If you lost the keys (assuming it has SKIM/SKREEM) can he acquire and program the car to accept new keys? If he doesn't have the O.E. tools, why not? Are they too expensive?
Wow, I never asked; I guess that shop is almost as incompetent as me.
When I said he I was envisioning the shop owner making the choice, not the employee. Otherwise the rest of it rings true today. If a shop hasn't made the investment to do the entire job, one really has to wonder why they haven't. It usually comes down to them not pricing sufficiently to be able to have that additional burden. Then again, if the guys in the back are turning repairs under the table, behind their backs, well.....
These guys know how to "fix" things. They knew how to rebuild the front end of a 1954 Chevy, kingpins and all.
I still press and ream my own kingpins, as well as for other shops.
They knew how to pull a torque tube and install a reseal kit on a Dynaflow.
Gravy, you should try to pull the engine on a Lexus R400, let alone a R400h.
They didn't throw on a rebuilt alternator.
They took your old alternator apart on their workbench and carefully rebuilt it.
Yep, still do when it's appropriate.
These guys would never have installed a rebuilt engine that they had no control over quality. They would rebuild the engine that was already in the car. They might farm out the block to a neighboorhood machine shop for a rebore but they did the rest.
I still do about five engines a year. You have to be picky who you build for. Add a few transmissions, both automatic and manual, and a transfer case and differential or two and that keeps the skills sharp.
You can go back to the same PLACE but you can't go back to the same TIME
As you said here, it costs more because you can guarantee the part and the work. That just isn't readily apparent when looking at the surface (pricing only).
That's part of the equation, but really there is so much more that it would take months to go through the variables. If shops stopped using a parts mark-up tomorrow, the shops total revenues would have to be generated by the labor fees. You would likely see them double to make up the difference. Since many technicians pay plans are based on a percentage of the labor they turn, shops actually learned to shift more of the gross receipts to the commodity side of the equation, aka the parts profits.
Then along came AutoZone and they charged shops and walk-in consumers the same prices. Today AutoZone is actively chasing the professional level business. Shops that have been around long enough to remember how they hurt us with their pricing and code pulls send their reps right back out the door. When Auto Zone bought Alldata, I even dropped that subscription and went with only Mitchell. Today, they call and send me customers for diagnostics but they know I won't walk in their door, and why.
While I'm the first to defend them against innapropriate outside criticism
I'm assuming you are referring to the techs who can't change the oil on a BMW correctly, screw up battery installations, and can't correctly identify the source of an oil leak- correct?
You praised him for doing something for next to nothing, and then you paid him directly for it instead of it going through the shop and being charged for correctly.
The shop wouldn't accept payment either.
I must say that I envy you, it must be wonderful to know everything that there is to know about vehicle repair as well as repair shop management. The only down side must be having to constantly correct and/or slap down those few ignorant souls that don't concede to your superior knowledge...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
A couple of Saturdays ago a friend called to tell me he was at a franchise tire shop that had just replaced the pads on his 128i droptop; the shop couldn't reset the brake lining lights. I spent over ten minutes trying to walk him and the tech through the CBS reset procedure. No joy. We finally gave up- and I couldn't understand why the CBS wouldn't reset. Well, tonight I found out what was wrong- my friend told me that the shop had installed aftermarket pad wear sensors that weren't playing nice with the CBS system. And it gets better; my friend had taken my advice on sticking with QEM BMW electrical parts and specified factory sensors. The shop tried to claim that he hadn't specified BMW parts so my friend had to escalate the dispute up to the regional manager, who agreed to have another shop install the correct sensors.
For what it's worth, my friend is one of the people I mentioned earlier who almost ended up paying to replace the oil pan gasket on his wife's X3 when in fact the leak source was the oil filter housing gasket...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I must say that I envy you, it must be wonderful to know everything that there is to know about vehicle repair as well as repair shop management. The only down side must be having to constantly correct and/or slap down those few ignorant souls that don't concede to your superior knowledge...
Give it a rest. You change the story each time you find out there is a huge hole in it. That's not my problem, its yours.
No joy. We finally gave up- and I couldn't understand why the CBS wouldn't reset. Well, tonight I found out what was wrong- my friend told me that the shop had installed aftermarket pad wear sensors that weren't playing nice with the CBS system. And it gets better; my friend had taken my advice on sticking with QEM BMW electrical parts and specified factory sensors
You insist on mocking me, yet you are the one who obviously knows all there is to know.
Why don't you open a shop and show the world how great you really are? You would make a fortune....
You insist on mocking me, yet you are the one who obviously knows all there is to know.
I know enough to advise someone that it is false economy to fit aftermarket electrical components to a BMW- and in that situation that really is ALL you need to know.
Why don't you open a shop and show the world how great you really are? You would make a fortune....
Well, I won't finish my current job assignment for @2 years- after that, who knows???
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
after following along at all the "banter" on this thread, what seems to me is that cardoc (or more accurately, the Royal cardoc, meaning his breed) may be becoming a dinosaur. But, is that a bad thing (at a macro level), or just a casualty of progress and change?
His stories really point out that it is a different world than in the old days, and that a small operation is fighting a losing battle. So, you either fight to the death, or adapt. Good or bad, but many businesses have gone through it.
I was actually thinking that the family doctor is a good analogy. The little sole practitioner, or even 2 man shop, just can't seem to survive in the world today, and offices are moving toward larger practices. Costs for insurance, technology, redtape, etc. (never mind keeping up with all the new stuff) are just too much for most of them to handle, and on top of that there is cost pressure. So, as much as many people hate it, change occurs.
What does this mean to the car repair biz? Probably more segregation and specialization. Plus dealers getting more business, since no one else will be able to handle the more complicated stuff. Local shops (chains?) will likely focus on the easy low hanging fruit. And some marque specialists will have enough of a following (and narrow focus) to stay doing "high end stuff".
but beyond that, the tricky stuff (diagnostics) might have to become a centralized specialty (think of it like a hospital), that will support the run of the mill operations. And most likely, will have to be a whole lot bigger to afford the tech. Maybe that ends up being the dealers instead, with some sort of regional HQ type operation doing "outsourcing" for other shops/dealers? I guess manufacturers already have this, with home office support.
maybe an answer is all the guys like doc in an area have to merge for cost efficiency? might also allow for an internship program to get more young people in.
anyway, just speculating (all my opinion, take that FWIW), but it really does seem clear that in this environment, a 1 man band is not a viable business model!
Give it a rest. You change the story each time you find out there is a huge hole in it. That's not my problem, its yours.
I've made over 5600 posts on these forums and you are the first person to even insinuate that I am dishonest.
Not dishonest, what your posts show is that things that you want to praise actually suggest a lack of professional behavior. The first one appears to have a shop owner living in the 60's and when I showed you (and anyone else that comes along reading this) what was wrong with it, you changed it to the tech making that decision and getting paid on the side for it. That's dishonest behavior on the techs part, so now you changed your story again. Those were each your stories and they are not unique in any way, you just didn't know what kinds of incorrect habits they really described.
Do you think that you are the first person to talk about repairs being done, without proper documentation, and charges and attempted to display that as good habits? I've pointed out that I started coming to this site because of that NBC report. They praised one shop for not charging the customer to figure out their AC relay problem, they were just as wrong for that as you were here. The difference is, you got me pointing out what is wrong with the perspective you portraited.
I'll remind you that the title of the forum is a mechanics life. Your doing a great job of showing why the job stresses the young techs out. I can well imagine the tech who was working in the chain store having never seen one of these brake pad warning systems before. Or, even if he/she had not encountering an issue with the parts typically provided through the regular sources. Instead of this getting to be a genuine learning event, you look like you are proud to have assisted into turning it into as big of a debacle as it could ever be. That can succeed in the tech learning one thing, about one car but with all of the many variations and traps out there it ends up contributing to finally chasing someone who might have grown to be a very competent technician out of the field.
If you think there is one know it all here, I'm going to counter with there has to be at least two. The difference is one of us has paid his dues inside the trade, and now still works as a full time tech as well as shares the things he's learned with others inside the trade to help them be better and more professional in their jobs. The other? I only see things like those two responses and when they were fairly challenged doesn't like it one bit and resorts to name calling.
Thank you for proving my point
Really? You have a point? Sorry with all the times that you have to make a victim of some tech in order to prove your competency I seem to have missed it. From my POV you'd like nothing better than to catch me making one mistake so that you could jump all over it and prove just how much you think you know once again. I've met lots of people who act the way I see you here. I make mistakes, through my career I've made plenty of them. Its how I handle them and what I learn from them that ultimately makes a difference for my customers. Then we have the people who never make mistakes. But really its pretty hard for them to ever get it wrong, when they never actually do anything.
5600 posts here? I'm sure some of them really helped some people. That's great. I have tens of thousands of posts over multiple sites, and hundreds of thousands of real repairs under my belt. I am a regular guest on a couple live radio shows and host my own weekly. I also write and present continuing educational classes for professional techs and hold seminars for DIY'ers at car cruises. I donate the money for the parts to repair at least one car a year that is inspected and repaired by a group at one of the local car cruises for some single mom.
after following along at all the "banter" on this thread, what seems to me is that cardoc (or more accurately, the Royal cardoc, meaning his breed) may be becoming a dinosaur. But, is that a bad thing (at a macro level), or just a casualty of progress and change?
If I didn't have the tendency that drives me to always have to overcome obsticles that someone else places in my way, I wouldn't have remained a technician my whole career. Is the real master technician that can work bumper to bumper a thing of the past? Absolutely. There is just too much for anyone to try and learn and traps are everywhere. I make no attempts to work on all makes and all models. No-one could afford all of the tools, let alone all of the schools and have time to study and still work and make a living. It's just too much, so we have to specialize in both scope of repairs and manufacturers. I still keep a fairly broad list that I support, but it takes all that I can do to not fall behind.
His stories really point out that it is a different world than in the old days, and that a small operation is fighting a losing battle. So, you either fight to the death, or adapt. Good or bad, but many businesses have gone through it.
I teach a business class, one of the first things that I point out is that there is no such thing as a successful business, there are only businesses that haven't failed yet.
I also stress that the day someone goess into business for themselves is the very same day that they should start planning for the day that they go out of business.
Now of course those are only titles of sections and need a lot of thought put through them to understand all the details but taken on their own they describe the courage and the need to be adaptable and ready to change the businesses direction when needed.
anyway, just speculating (all my opinion, take that FWIW), but it really does seem clear that in this environment, a 1 man band is not a viable business model!
As it stands right now the average repair shop is runing a business model that really failed to work well with 1980's cars. Now the new stuff coming out, heck the dealers are really struggling to deal with it because they also are still stuck in the 80's. I can tell you the first thing that is wrong in the dealers with two words. Flat Rate. But they won't let go of that antiquated system. They will argue that the elimination of flat rate reduces the motivating factor to get the techs to work hard. But if you start with the right people, you don't need to motivate them with the carrot VS the stick method. I call that carrot versus stick in stead of carrot and stick because flat rate both rewards and is ready to punish he techs at every turn. In the end the techs burn out and the revolving door used to just bring in fresh meat for the grinder. Today I see more and more posts from them about why can't they find qualified people. It takes decades to grow a competent technician, and he/she is going to make mistakes. Nobody is willing to allow them to do that and so the kids don't stay in the trade long enough to turn that corner (that's about the ten year mark) on their way to being that seasoned technician.
but beyond that, the tricky stuff (diagnostics) might have to become a centralized specialty (think of it like a hospital), that will support the run of the mill operations. And most likely, will have to be a whole lot bigger to afford the tech. Maybe that ends up being the dealers instead, with some sort of regional HQ type operation doing "outsourcing" for other shops/dealers? I guess manufacturers already have this, with home office support.
Where do you get those people, if the trade pi$$e$ away the talent before they really learn the job? I know a number of mobile technicians who do diagnostics for other shops. I have a brick and morter building and was doing some mobile work too. It turns out that all we are doing is enabling them to stagnate in their careers. We become another excuse for them to not go to training or buy up to date tooling. I've stopped doing mobile diagnostics, I'll still do flashes for them and theft deterrent resets. Anything else, they have to send car and customer to me if they want my help. In one case I had a shop cutting my throat on pricing to get people in their door, only to have them calling me to bail them out when they got in over their heads. They caused me to change my whole approach for everyone.
What does this mean to the car repair biz? Probably more segregation and specialization
Collapse. The present model is doing nothing to sustain itself and all of the attacks from the outside only serve to weaken a foundation that is already crumbling. Just watch, heck look around your neighborhood and see how many shops used to be there. The ones that are running will survive until the owners have to give it up, don't be surprised to see them close and not be replaced. The chain stores will survive, mostly because of plastic money. The dealers? Well didn't what happened in 2008-2009 teach people anything?
The little sole practitioner, or even 2 man shop, just can't seem to survive in the world today
A group practice has deeper pockets so if one of the group members does screw up, in theory you have a better chance of getting an insurance or legal settlement, since they are more likely to be solvent.
And if something happens to the one man band, how easy is it going to be getting your car down from the lift if the doors are locked and the heirs are six states away?
And it gets better; my friend had taken my advice on sticking with QEM BMW electrical parts and specified factory sensors. The shop tried to claim that he hadn't specified BMW parts
BTW the most telling habit here is how you portrait the shop and tech as being totally at fault. When does someone finally put the blame where it really belongs, on the parts manufacturer! When is blame going to be put on the higher level management who force the chain stores to source the most inexpensive parts they can find in order to bolster the corporations bottom line, at the techs and the customers expense?
The biggest difference between you and me IMO, is that I'm all about stopping all of that insanity, you (and others) seem to thrive by it.
Your doing a great job of showing why the job stresses the young techs out. I can well imagine the tech who was working in the chain store having never seen one of these brake pad warning systems before. Or, even if he/she had not encountering an issue with the parts typically provided through the regular sources. Instead of this getting to be a genuine learning event, you look like you are proud to have assisted into turning it into as big of a debacle as it could ever be.
My friend requests that OEM parts be used- but they aren't. The CBS cannot be reset thanks to the aftermarket sensors. The shop tries to evade responsibility. And that is all my fault. Got it.
I only see things like those two responses and when they were fairly challenged doesn't like it one bit and resorts to name calling.
Name calling? Where?
Sorry with all the times that you have to make a victim of some tech in order to prove your competency I seem to have missed it.
Agreed; the techs I criticized are victims- of their own ignorance/incompetence/laziness.
I have tens of thousands of posts over multiple sites, and hundreds of thousands of real repairs under my belt. I am a regular guest on a couple live radio shows and host my own weekly. I also write and present continuing educational classes for professional techs and hold seminars for DIY'ers at car cruises. I donate the money for the parts to repair at least one car a year that is inspected and repaired by a group at one of the local car cruises for some single mom.
Good for you; I've never questioned your ability or experience. What I have questioned is your need to defend or explain away shoddy or incompetent work. Oh wait, the culprits are actually "victims."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
BTW the most telling habit here is how you portrait the shop and tech as being totally at fault.
To repeat, they did not use OEM sensors, which my friend specifically requested. So yes, it IS their fault. We wouldn't even be talking about poor quality aftermarket parts if they had used the BMW parts my friend requested.
The biggest difference between you and me IMO, is that I'm all about stopping all of that insanity, you (and others) seem to thrive by it.
You don't want to stop the insanity, you only want to excuse it. When a hack nearly ruined the oil pan on my friend's X3, used a substandard filter, and failed to reset the SIA, I was the bad guy for not agreeing to provide the tech with remedial BMW oil change training.
And the two BMW dealers who couldn't correctly ID the source of an oil leak on AWD BMWs? Give then a pass as well- in your own words:
"It isn't enough information to do anything with. Few if any of the readers here have ever looked at one of these engines and have no idea how obscured the area in question is. Given the chance, without prior knowledge of the pattern failure I doubt that you would have gotten this same test right the first time either. The difference is, I wouldn't trash you for that like you have done to them here"
So the techs make the wrong call and a customer is out over $1000. And the car is still leaking oil. But hey, you'd make the same mistake too if you didn't know anything about BMWs.
And let's not forget how stupid it was of me to replace batteries in non IBS Bimmers- everyone should know that it's a complex job that can only be carried out by a professional.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
You know, all anecdotal incidents are different. For either the technicians or the consumers to retreat behind a wall of "we're being persecuted" immediately shuts down any dialogue that might lead to solutions.
Have you been following that NYC ban on large size sugar-laden drinks? You get all points of view on the subject, and yet can we actually point to one party in the dispute as being "wrong"?
No. They all have their issues and their valid points.
Just think of the "mix" of complexities when Consumer A brings Vehicle B to Shop C! :surprise:
How much (or little) does the consumer know about his vehicle's problem?
How competent is the shop?
Does the vehicle itself have a defect?
How good are the parts being used?
So my point is:
Nice customer + good shop + good car + bad part = unhappy ending
OR
Irrational customer + good shop + good blah blah and so on......
To repeat, they did not use OEM sensors, which my friend specifically requested.
IF he really requested the O.E. parts, they dropped the ball. No argument about that. How would you handle the customer who then turns around and complains about pricing when they can find the cheap ones online for a fraction of the cost? You can find a lot of people who swear those parts work just fine.
Hey let's have some fun. Specifically what is the difference between the sensors that were sourced that didn't work as compared to the factory ones that do?
So my point is: Nice customer + good shop + good car + bad part = unhappy ending OR Irrational customer + good shop + good blah blah and so on...... Who has the power to control all these variables?
The shop owner if he/she is really on top of things has the best chance, but we are only as good as the next time we are challenged when fate takes a swipe at us.
RB has never dealt with a BMW owner who got upset because the prices quoted for a given job were the same as the BMW dealers. Meanwhile we are actually working at a lower gross profit than the shop down the street who is quoting the aftermarket parts prices, which have a higher gross profit than the 20% we get to have with the O.E. Now our labor rate is less than the dealers so we are still a bargain, but when they price shop, where do they end up? Not at the dealer, not at my shop, they end up at the chain store and IF the aftermarket parts are tolerated by the onboard systems, they get to look like heros.
Have you been following that NYC ban on large size sugar-laden drinks? You get all points of view on the subject, and yet can we actually point to one party in the dispute as being "wrong"?
Can't say that I have. I wish I only had such important issues to worry about.
Good for you; I've never questioned your ability or experience.
You haven't?
it must be wonderful to know everything that there is to know about vehicle repair as well as repair shop management.
What I have questioned is your need to defend or explain away shoddy or incompetent work.
Not explain it away, make everyone see what the real causes are and start addressing them from that perspective. Nothing else will ever solve the problems that the consumers and techs both face.
Oh wait, the culprits are actually "victims."
Why do you have a problem with that? Why do you think that so many who had the potential to really be great techs didn't stay in the trade?
You concentrate on the thousand dollars that you claim some BMW owner might have been out. I think that the people are more important than the money and if the trade changes and concentrates on that angle, we take care of both the customer and their money correctly.
Comments
He was great with lectures and it was almost like he was doing you a favor if he were to work on your Peugeot.
To his credit, he did good work and he was honest.
I've seen the same correlation and I know exactly what you are talking about.
Working on some of the more "unique" makes can have a tendency to make a repairman a bit "cranky", so I'd think a little bit of odd behavior might be the norm in many cases...
Reminds me of that great Seinfeld episode where Jerry's BMW mechanic yells at Jerry for poor maintenance on it. Then takes off in it when Jerry wants to take it somewhere else. "I have no faith in this gasket" lol :P
If you want to find out just how bad things can go, tempt the fates by installing carry in parts to a car that you didn't diagnose. :sick:
If we install her part, we are liable for the repair, no matter what anyone wants to try and state in a disclaimer. Keep in mind, she allegedly can't hear the noise but I'll give you dollars to donuts that who-ever does this for her will have her back on their doorstep with "problems she will be sure they caused" on her 1994 Caprice.
For us, the labor alone isn't high enough to make ends meet. Right there its "no-deal", we don't install carry in parts. Our parts profits provide a portion of the revenues that we have to generate in order to stay in business, we should never have to apologize for needing to do that. Our parts suppliers back our warranties, parts that we didn't sell lose that support. We won't do work that we can't stand behind, that also makes this a "no-deal".
It took five minutes to try and explain this to her, she simply either couldn't or wouldn't listen. Poor communication at the desk, sorry, again "no-deal". I won't do work for someone who is likely to leave not knowing for sure exactly what we did for him/her and why.
Oh well. Hope she has a nice day! :surprise:
What's the typical mark-up on parts... about 50-75%? I gather from the above quote, customers complain a lot over parts profit margin. Taken at face value, it does seems excessive.
The $$$ amounts may not be the actual ones on the sign, but you get the idea...
The sign stated:
Repair Labor Cost - $20.00/Hour
If you watch - $30.00/Hour
If you help - $50.00/Hour
Dealing with old folks can be exasperating at times, especially since some of these people are living 30-40 years in the past, not taking into account the inflation of costs over the years. Then again, I've seen a couple of instances in which an old person was very well aware of the cost of things, but playing the "age" card and pretending not to understand. Sometimes, its all but impossible to tell.
As compared to what?
Popcorn and a soda at the movie theater?
A beer at a sports event?
A pair of jeans at a department store?
What's the typical mark-up on parts... about 50-75%?
We work off of the suggested list price. Some dealers give us 20% off, some 30%. We have some that don't give us a break on the price at all, that is usually inconvenient to say the least.
Management training companies advise shops to use a pricing matrix that generally slides the percentage down as the cost goes up. Those work well as far as the accountant is concerned but are probably what you are referring to. The thing is, without knowing what a shop's cost of doing business is, it's not something that anyone can judge from the outside and be truly "fair".
Good grief!
If car parts/repairs followed the same pricing model as movie theaters, we'd all be walking!
Anyway, the mechanic told me that the cost for the ball joints was $52. I asked him if that was apiece, but I almost did a double-take when he said no, that was for BOTH! So, either those ball joints were dirt cheap to begin with, or the mechanic was giving me a great price. As a rough reference point, (I'm sure it's hard to compare though), I had bought an upper ball joint for a '68 Dart back in 1993 and put in on myself, and that sucker was $45, just for one!
So, I imagine the markup for parts is going to vary, from mechanic to mechanic
I paid a similar price ($45) for the each of the ball joints on my Escort. The "lifetime warranty" ones were about $100 each, which seemed insane. Then, I just about lost an arm replacing the darn things. Three years and 45,000 miles later, the boots were cracked and one of the joints was in need of replacement again. Yep, after that labor, I should have definitely gone for the better part the first time.
Well, with labor it was more; I think it cost about $200-250 to get that car through inspection. Would cheapo, crappy ball joints have been on the market back in 1999?
I didn't think anything of it at the time, because I had often heard that GM (and Ford) parts were usually much cheaper than Mopar parts, simply because they built a lot more of them.
But then, maybe not? For instance, a ball joint for a '67 Dart will fit a '67-76 Dart, Valiant, and '67-69 Barracuda, and possibly other models as well. A ball joint for a '67 Catalina will fit only a full-sized '67-68 Pontiac. Not a '69, not a '66. And not a Chevy, Olds, Buick, or Cadillac. At least, that's what the mechanic had told me.
Yea you could find some garbage back then if you tried, but today its insane some of the stuff that is on the market. One incident (not my shop) had ball joints put in a Dodge truck and just over a year later they were bad again. When the next shop tried to install the right parts, the holes in the control arms were too big to hold them securely. Those cheap joints cost the owner of the truck lower control arms.
That is a really good shop, and the tech I usually work with is worth his weight in gold. When the alternator light came on in my 1984 T-Bird Turbo I was sure that the alternator was shot. He spent a couple of minutes checking and found a broken ground wire. He fixed it and then didn't want to accept any money- I still paid him $20, as his diagnosis was more than worth that to me.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
And as I said, I only supply the parts when they want me to; I'm not bringing in white box parts made in some 4th-world country every time they service the car.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
He may be a talented technician, but when he forgets that he's running a business, he's failing as a business. These favors add up to schools not attended, and tools not purchased. Those two mean that he has a glass ceiling that will see him go out of business some day, especially as the technology in the cars gets to be more and more difficult to handle. It's not uncommon to see dozens of cars on the lot of a shop like this, but a little snow in the winter reveals just how many of the cars never move. Now sure he's busy, at times he's probably running around with a dozen things on his mind to do. That will be his reason for being too busy to go to classes.
He services your jeep. Does he have the factory scan tool for it? If you lost the keys (assuming it has SKIM/SKREEM) can he aquire and program the car to accept new keys? If he doesn't have the O.E. tools, why not? Are they too expensive?
In the end he isn't going to be around, and he will take others with him as he fails. If he's really worth his weight in gold then talk him into going to management training classes for his sake and that of all of his customers. Before he nice guy's himself right out of there. This is something that is occurring all over the country, the consumers will only be left to wonder what happened to "Bill", he was such a nice guy.
Define "fair" as used in that sentence.
Looks like Florida will be next for the right to repair issue to take root. Funny how it actually goes hand in hand with the questions that I asked from roadburners post.
I let my customers know what manufacturers I can support fully. If they want to buy a product that isn't on my list, then they have to accept that they will have to go to the dealership for some things.
This one is pretty accurate about what its like on the "other" side of the counter.
Want to know why synthetics in Europe have to be group IV, V, or VI base stocks and in North America a conventional oil can be called a synthetic?
Back then, the regular shop I used, which was run by two older guys, didn't do inspections, so for that, they'd send their customers to another shop that was just at the other end of the plaza. So apparently these two shops had a good working relationship with each other.
Maybe that's why they had me order the ball joints myself and save a little money, because I was a long term customer at the other place, so they wanted to do me a favor?
Anyway, I had that LeSabre about 3 1/2 years and never any trouble with the ball joints, but at that point, it was just a spare car that didn't get used all that much. It had about 144,000 miles on it when Grandmom gave it to me, and I got rid of it with 157,000 when the brakes went out on it, and other issues were cropping up, and I just didn't want to put any more money into it.
It's a shame those two old guys retired...I really liked them, and they did good, honest work. But, nobody stays young forever. They sold the place back in 2002, and one of them passed away in 2005. Sad, that he worked al those years and had such a short retirement. But, he seemed like he lived a good, happy, full life.
I think we're going to wind up like the Japanese, and progressively escalating repair costs will just force people to scrap or trade their car more frequently. The stringent periodic vehicle inspection in Japan has had the same result; gets too expensive to pay to pass the inspection.
I'll never "retire. First I wouldn't know what to do all day long. But even so, here isn't a dime put away towards it and we burn through every penney we generate just keeping the shop going so when the last day comes, what my wife will have will be what's left after the auctioneer takes his cut.
Me? I'll be retired when they close the lid.
As compared to what?
Well, I think what he meant, and I could be wrong, is that it looks pricey compared to what you can buy the parts for yourself ("taken at face value"), because folks can't see the whole picture without some assistance. As you said here, it costs more because you can guarantee the part and the work. That just isn't readily apparent when looking at the surface (pricing only).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And I thought that I was the one who criticized techs...
The tech in question is an employee of the shop.
He services your jeep. Does he have the factory scan tool for it? If you lost the keys (assuming it has SKIM/SKREEM) can he aquire and program the car to accept new keys? If he doesn't have the O.E. tools, why not? Are they too expensive?
Wow, I never asked; I guess that shop is almost as incompetent as me.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Fair is a very subjective term, but in the case of this shop they don't charge as much as the Jeep dealer but they do charge more than Kwicky Boob and other franchise shops. Back in 2011 they charged $425 to perform a 60,000 mile service; I provided Mobil 1 lubricants for the engine, F/R diffs, transfer case, and manual gearbox. They supplied the plugs, plug wires, and cap/rotor.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Most are dead or long retired.
In the town where I grew up, there were several "old time" shops that were owned by "old school" mechanics.
These guys know how to "fix" things. They knew how to rebuild the front end of a 1954 Chevy, kingpins and all. They knew how to pull a torque tube and install a reseal kit on a Dynaflow. They didn't throw on a rebuilt alternator.
They took your old alternator apart on their workbench and carefully rebuilt it.
These guys would never have installed a rebuilt engine that they had no control over quality. They would rebuild the engine that was already in the car. They might farm out the block to a neighboorhood machine shop for a rebore but they did the rest.
Today, those shops are either gone, converted to a mexican restaurant or are now run by others. The many gas stations that used to have a "Mechanic on duty" have been leveled and turned into strip malls or the former shop bays have been turned into mini marts.
" You can go back to the same PLACE but you can't go back to the same TIME"
The tech in question is an employee of the shop.
While I'm the first to defend them against innapropriate outside criticism, there are internal trade issues that can only be dealt with by not beating around the bush.
You praised him for doing something for next to nothing, and then you paid him directly for it instead of it going through the shop and being charged for correctly. Most shop owners would view that as competing against them from inside their own walls. While he is on their clock, his time is no different than a bottle of antifreeze on the shelf. You wouldn't just take one of those without paying for it and leave would you? I have seen techs terminated for doing exactly what he did, take payment for fixing a customers car, without a repair order being written.
You might think that's crazy, but eventually something goes wrong, and someone isn't happy with the result. Imagine what it looks like to the owner when he can't find an R.O. to reference what was done the last time and why. Now picture him having to warranty the repair" because it was done at his shop.
I watched one company have to provide a warranty engine for a vehicle sold by one of the employees, all because the customer met the tech at the shop. (The shop was a chain store and does not sell cars). In the end, it cost the tech his job.
He services your jeep. Does he have the factory scan tool for it? If you lost the keys (assuming it has SKIM/SKREEM) can he acquire and program the car to accept new keys? If he doesn't have the O.E. tools, why not? Are they too expensive?
Wow, I never asked; I guess that shop is almost as incompetent as me.
When I said he I was envisioning the shop owner making the choice, not the employee. Otherwise the rest of it rings true today. If a shop hasn't made the investment to do the entire job, one really has to wonder why they haven't. It usually comes down to them not pricing sufficiently to be able to have that additional burden. Then again, if the guys in the back are turning repairs under the table, behind their backs, well.....
But not all, there is still a few hanging around.
These guys know how to "fix" things. They knew how to rebuild the front end of a 1954 Chevy, kingpins and all.
I still press and ream my own kingpins, as well as for other shops.
They knew how to pull a torque tube and install a reseal kit on a Dynaflow.
Gravy, you should try to pull the engine on a Lexus R400, let alone a R400h.
They didn't throw on a rebuilt alternator.
They took your old alternator apart on their workbench and carefully rebuilt it.
Yep, still do when it's appropriate.
These guys would never have installed a rebuilt engine that they had no control over quality. They would rebuild the engine that was already in the car. They might farm out the block to a neighboorhood machine shop for a rebore but they did the rest.
I still do about five engines a year. You have to be picky who you build for. Add a few transmissions, both automatic and manual, and a transfer case and differential or two and that keeps the skills sharp.
You can go back to the same PLACE but you can't go back to the same TIME
Would you really want to?
That's part of the equation, but really there is so much more that it would take months to go through the variables. If shops stopped using a parts mark-up tomorrow, the shops total revenues would have to be generated by the labor fees. You would likely see them double to make up the difference. Since many technicians pay plans are based on a percentage of the labor they turn, shops actually learned to shift more of the gross receipts to the commodity side of the equation, aka the parts profits.
Then along came AutoZone and they charged shops and walk-in consumers the same prices. Today AutoZone is actively chasing the professional level business. Shops that have been around long enough to remember how they hurt us with their pricing and code pulls send their reps right back out the door. When Auto Zone bought Alldata, I even dropped that subscription and went with only Mitchell. Today, they call and send me customers for diagnostics but they know I won't walk in their door, and why.
I'm assuming you are referring to the techs who can't change the oil on a BMW correctly, screw up battery installations, and can't correctly identify the source of an oil leak- correct?
You praised him for doing something for next to nothing, and then you paid him directly for it instead of it going through the shop and being charged for correctly.
The shop wouldn't accept payment either.
I must say that I envy you, it must be wonderful to know everything that there is to know about vehicle repair as well as repair shop management. The only down side must be having to constantly correct and/or slap down those few ignorant souls that don't concede to your superior knowledge...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
For what it's worth, my friend is one of the people I mentioned earlier who almost ended up paying to replace the oil pan gasket on his wife's X3 when in fact the leak source was the oil filter housing gasket...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Give it a rest. You change the story each time you find out there is a huge hole in it. That's not my problem, its yours.
You insist on mocking me, yet you are the one who obviously knows all there is to know.
Why don't you open a shop and show the world how great you really are? You would make a fortune....
I've made over 5600 posts on these forums and you are the first person to even insinuate that I am dishonest. Thank you for proving my point.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I know enough to advise someone that it is false economy to fit aftermarket electrical components to a BMW- and in that situation that really is ALL you need to know.
Why don't you open a shop and show the world how great you really are? You would make a fortune....
Well, I won't finish my current job assignment for @2 years- after that, who knows???
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
His stories really point out that it is a different world than in the old days, and that a small operation is fighting a losing battle. So, you either fight to the death, or adapt. Good or bad, but many businesses have gone through it.
I was actually thinking that the family doctor is a good analogy. The little sole practitioner, or even 2 man shop, just can't seem to survive in the world today, and offices are moving toward larger practices. Costs for insurance, technology, redtape, etc. (never mind keeping up with all the new stuff) are just too much for most of them to handle, and on top of that there is cost pressure. So, as much as many people hate it, change occurs.
What does this mean to the car repair biz? Probably more segregation and specialization. Plus dealers getting more business, since no one else will be able to handle the more complicated stuff. Local shops (chains?) will likely focus on the easy low hanging fruit. And some marque specialists will have enough of a following (and narrow focus) to stay doing "high end stuff".
but beyond that, the tricky stuff (diagnostics) might have to become a centralized specialty (think of it like a hospital), that will support the run of the mill operations. And most likely, will have to be a whole lot bigger to afford the tech. Maybe that ends up being the dealers instead, with some sort of regional HQ type operation doing "outsourcing" for other shops/dealers? I guess manufacturers already have this, with home office support.
maybe an answer is all the guys like doc in an area have to merge for cost efficiency? might also allow for an internship program to get more young people in.
anyway, just speculating (all my opinion, take that FWIW), but it really does seem clear that in this environment, a 1 man band is not a viable business model!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I've made over 5600 posts on these forums and you are the first person to even insinuate that I am dishonest.
Not dishonest, what your posts show is that things that you want to praise actually suggest a lack of professional behavior. The first one appears to have a shop owner living in the 60's and when I showed you (and anyone else that comes along reading this) what was wrong with it, you changed it to the tech making that decision and getting paid on the side for it. That's dishonest behavior on the techs part, so now you changed your story again. Those were each your stories and they are not unique in any way, you just didn't know what kinds of incorrect habits they really described.
Do you think that you are the first person to talk about repairs being done, without proper documentation, and charges and attempted to display that as good habits? I've pointed out that I started coming to this site because of that NBC report. They praised one shop for not charging the customer to figure out their AC relay problem, they were just as wrong for that as you were here. The difference is, you got me pointing out what is wrong with the perspective you portraited.
I'll remind you that the title of the forum is a mechanics life. Your doing a great job of showing why the job stresses the young techs out. I can well imagine the tech who was working in the chain store having never seen one of these brake pad warning systems before. Or, even if he/she had not encountering an issue with the parts typically provided through the regular sources. Instead of this getting to be a genuine learning event, you look like you are proud to have assisted into turning it into as big of a debacle as it could ever be. That can succeed in the tech learning one thing, about one car but with all of the many variations and traps out there it ends up contributing to finally chasing someone who might have grown to be a very competent technician out of the field.
If you think there is one know it all here, I'm going to counter with there has to be at least two. The difference is one of us has paid his dues inside the trade, and now still works as a full time tech as well as shares the things he's learned with others inside the trade to help them be better and more professional in their jobs. The other? I only see things like those two responses and when they were fairly challenged doesn't like it one bit and resorts to name calling.
Thank you for proving my point
Really? You have a point? Sorry with all the times that you have to make a victim of some tech in order to prove your competency I seem to have missed it. From my POV you'd like nothing better than to catch me making one mistake so that you could jump all over it and prove just how much you think you know once again. I've met lots of people who act the way I see you here. I make mistakes, through my career I've made plenty of them. Its how I handle them and what I learn from them that ultimately makes a difference for my customers. Then we have the people who never make mistakes. But really its pretty hard for them to ever get it wrong, when they never actually do anything.
5600 posts here? I'm sure some of them really helped some people. That's great. I have tens of thousands of posts over multiple sites, and hundreds of thousands of real repairs under my belt. I am a regular guest on a couple live radio shows and host my own weekly. I also write and present continuing educational classes for professional techs and hold seminars for DIY'ers at car cruises. I donate the money for the parts to repair at least one car a year that is inspected and repaired by a group at one of the local car cruises for some single mom.
If I didn't have the tendency that drives me to always have to overcome obsticles that someone else places in my way, I wouldn't have remained a technician my whole career. Is the real master technician that can work bumper to bumper a thing of the past? Absolutely. There is just too much for anyone to try and learn and traps are everywhere. I make no attempts to work on all makes and all models. No-one could afford all of the tools, let alone all of the schools and have time to study and still work and make a living. It's just too much, so we have to specialize in both scope of repairs and manufacturers. I still keep a fairly broad list that I support, but it takes all that I can do to not fall behind.
His stories really point out that it is a different world than in the old days, and that a small operation is fighting a losing battle. So, you either fight to the death, or adapt. Good or bad, but many businesses have gone through it.
I teach a business class, one of the first things that I point out is that there is no such thing as a successful business, there are only businesses that haven't failed yet.
I also stress that the day someone goess into business for themselves is the very same day that they should start planning for the day that they go out of business.
Now of course those are only titles of sections and need a lot of thought put through them to understand all the details but taken on their own they describe the courage and the need to be adaptable and ready to change the businesses direction when needed.
anyway, just speculating (all my opinion, take that FWIW), but it really does seem clear that in this environment, a 1 man band is not a viable business model!
As it stands right now the average repair shop is runing a business model that really failed to work well with 1980's cars. Now the new stuff coming out, heck the dealers are really struggling to deal with it because they also are still stuck in the 80's. I can tell you the first thing that is wrong in the dealers with two words. Flat Rate. But they won't let go of that antiquated system. They will argue that the elimination of flat rate reduces the motivating factor to get the techs to work hard. But if you start with the right people, you don't need to motivate them with the carrot VS the stick method. I call that carrot versus stick in stead of carrot and stick because flat rate both rewards and is ready to punish he techs at every turn. In the end the techs burn out and the revolving door used to just bring in fresh meat for the grinder. Today I see more and more posts from them about why can't they find qualified people. It takes decades to grow a competent technician, and he/she is going to make mistakes. Nobody is willing to allow them to do that and so the kids don't stay in the trade long enough to turn that corner (that's about the ten year mark) on their way to being that seasoned technician.
but beyond that, the tricky stuff (diagnostics) might have to become a centralized specialty (think of it like a hospital), that will support the run of the mill operations. And most likely, will have to be a whole lot bigger to afford the tech. Maybe that ends up being the dealers instead, with some sort of regional HQ type operation doing "outsourcing" for other shops/dealers? I guess manufacturers already have this, with home office support.
Where do you get those people, if the trade pi$$e$ away the talent before they really learn the job? I know a number of mobile technicians who do diagnostics for other shops. I have a brick and morter building and was doing some mobile work too. It turns out that all we are doing is enabling them to stagnate in their careers. We become another excuse for them to not go to training or buy up to date tooling. I've stopped doing mobile diagnostics, I'll still do flashes for them and theft deterrent resets. Anything else, they have to send car and customer to me if they want my help. In one case I had a shop cutting my throat on pricing to get people in their door, only to have them calling me to bail them out when they got in over their heads. They caused me to change my whole approach for everyone.
What does this mean to the car repair biz? Probably more segregation and specialization
Collapse. The present model is doing nothing to sustain itself and all of the attacks from the outside only serve to weaken a foundation that is already crumbling. Just watch, heck look around your neighborhood and see how many shops used to be there. The ones that are running will survive until the owners have to give it up, don't be surprised to see them close and not be replaced. The chain stores will survive, mostly because of plastic money. The dealers? Well didn't what happened in 2008-2009 teach people anything?
A group practice has deeper pockets so if one of the group members does screw up, in theory you have a better chance of getting an insurance or legal settlement, since they are more likely to be solvent.
And if something happens to the one man band, how easy is it going to be getting your car down from the lift if the doors are locked and the heirs are six states away?
BTW the most telling habit here is how you portrait the shop and tech as being totally at fault. When does someone finally put the blame where it really belongs, on the parts manufacturer! When is blame going to be put on the higher level management who force the chain stores to source the most inexpensive parts they can find in order to bolster the corporations bottom line, at the techs and the customers expense?
The biggest difference between you and me IMO, is that I'm all about stopping all of that insanity, you (and others) seem to thrive by it.
My friend requests that OEM parts be used- but they aren't.
The CBS cannot be reset thanks to the aftermarket sensors.
The shop tries to evade responsibility.
And that is all my fault.
Got it.
I only see things like those two responses and when they were fairly challenged doesn't like it one bit and resorts to name calling.
Name calling? Where?
Sorry with all the times that you have to make a victim of some tech in order to prove your competency I seem to have missed it.
Agreed; the techs I criticized are victims- of their own ignorance/incompetence/laziness.
I have tens of thousands of posts over multiple sites, and hundreds of thousands of real repairs under my belt. I am a regular guest on a couple live radio shows and host my own weekly. I also write and present continuing educational classes for professional techs and hold seminars for DIY'ers at car cruises. I donate the money for the parts to repair at least one car a year that is inspected and repaired by a group at one of the local car cruises for some single mom.
Good for you; I've never questioned your ability or experience. What I have questioned is your need to defend or explain away shoddy or incompetent work. Oh wait, the culprits are actually "victims."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
To repeat, they did not use OEM sensors, which my friend specifically requested. So yes, it IS their fault. We wouldn't even be talking about poor quality aftermarket parts if they had used the BMW parts my friend requested.
The biggest difference between you and me IMO, is that I'm all about stopping all of that insanity, you (and others) seem to thrive by it.
You don't want to stop the insanity, you only want to excuse it. When a hack nearly ruined the oil pan on my friend's X3, used a substandard filter, and failed to reset the SIA, I was the bad guy for not agreeing to provide the tech with remedial BMW oil change training.
And the two BMW dealers who couldn't correctly ID the source of an oil leak on AWD BMWs? Give then a pass as well- in your own words:
"It isn't enough information to do anything with. Few if any of the readers here have ever looked at one of these engines and have no idea how obscured the area in question is. Given the chance, without prior knowledge of the pattern failure I doubt that you would have gotten this same test right the first time either. The difference is, I wouldn't trash you for that like you have done to them here"
So the techs make the wrong call and a customer is out over $1000. And the car is still leaking oil. But hey, you'd make the same mistake too if you didn't know anything about BMWs.
And let's not forget how stupid it was of me to replace batteries in non IBS Bimmers- everyone should know that it's a complex job that can only be carried out by a professional.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Have you been following that NYC ban on large size sugar-laden drinks? You get all points of view on the subject, and yet can we actually point to one party in the dispute as being "wrong"?
No. They all have their issues and their valid points.
Just think of the "mix" of complexities when Consumer A brings Vehicle B to Shop C! :surprise:
How much (or little) does the consumer know about his vehicle's problem?
How competent is the shop?
Does the vehicle itself have a defect?
How good are the parts being used?
So my point is:
Nice customer + good shop + good car + bad part = unhappy ending
OR
Irrational customer + good shop + good blah blah and so on......
Who has the power to control all these variables?
IF he really requested the O.E. parts, they dropped the ball. No argument about that. How would you handle the customer who then turns around and complains about pricing when they can find the cheap ones online for a fraction of the cost? You can find a lot of people who swear those parts work just fine.
Hey let's have some fun. Specifically what is the difference between the sensors that were sourced that didn't work as compared to the factory ones that do?
Nice customer + good shop + good car + bad part = unhappy ending
OR
Irrational customer + good shop + good blah blah and so on......
Who has the power to control all these variables?
The shop owner if he/she is really on top of things has the best chance, but we are only as good as the next time we are challenged when fate takes a swipe at us.
RB has never dealt with a BMW owner who got upset because the prices quoted for a given job were the same as the BMW dealers. Meanwhile we are actually working at a lower gross profit than the shop down the street who is quoting the aftermarket parts prices, which have a higher gross profit than the 20% we get to have with the O.E. Now our labor rate is less than the dealers so we are still a bargain, but when they price shop, where do they end up? Not at the dealer, not at my shop, they end up at the chain store and IF the aftermarket parts are tolerated by the onboard systems, they get to look like heros.
Have you been following that NYC ban on large size sugar-laden drinks? You get all points of view on the subject, and yet can we actually point to one party in the dispute as being "wrong"?
Can't say that I have. I wish I only had such important issues to worry about.
You haven't?
it must be wonderful to know everything that there is to know about vehicle repair as well as repair shop management.
What I have questioned is your need to defend or explain away shoddy or incompetent work.
Not explain it away, make everyone see what the real causes are and start addressing them from that perspective. Nothing else will ever solve the problems that the consumers and techs both face.
Oh wait, the culprits are actually "victims."
Why do you have a problem with that? Why do you think that so many who had the potential to really be great techs didn't stay in the trade?
You concentrate on the thousand dollars that you claim some BMW owner might have been out. I think that the people are more important than the money and if the trade changes and concentrates on that angle, we take care of both the customer and their money correctly.
A good dealer can even keep the owner of a lemon happy, but it's hit and miss finding the good dealers.