A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

roadburner · March 2013

How would you handle the customer who then turns around and complains about pricing when they can find the cheap ones online for a fraction of the cost?

The price delta is @$21; the dealer MSRP is $28, I can get them for 20% less at my dealer. The cheapest are Uros which go for $7.25. I'd tell them up front that I can't guarantee the performance of anything other than the BMW(or OEM supplier) sensors, and as a result I won't install substandard parts.

Hey let's have some fun. Specifically what is the difference between the sensors that were sourced that didn't work as compared to the factory ones that do?

Unlike prior single stage pad sensors, BMWs with CBS utilize a 2-stage brake pad wear sensor. As I understand it, the DSC module monitors the pad sensors; one wire in the sensor is designed to wear through when pad wear reaches 50%, increasing the circuit resistance from @5 ohms to @470 ohms. When the second wire wears through the DSC module then sees an open circuit and activates the pad replacement light. If the pad light has been activated and the new sensor has a resistance appreciably higher than @5 ohms the CBS cannot be reset.
So...
The aftermarket sensors must have a resistance that is significantly higher than 5 ohms.

thecardoc3 · March 2013

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478138

How do you rate this BMW owners perception of the system?

Only after changing 3 apparently good pad wear sensors to new ones did the warning reset sucessfully using the odo button/BC button. I then checked to see if the old brake wear sensors had self-destructed, and all indicated a short on a low resistance ohmmeter (i.e. they were ok). This leads me to conclude that the car's computer system looks for the brake wear sensors to be disconnected and then re-connected to determine if they have been replaced. If it thinks they are not replaced, it continues to issue a warning.

Strangely, none of the service people (including manager) at my dealership were aware of this. If my assessment is true, it means BMW is using a sneaky trick to force us to buy overpriced wear sensors even if the old ones are good.

I hope someone in a similar situation can try simply disconnecting all of their old / intact pad wear sensors and reconnecting them to see if this in fact will allow the brake service light to be reset. If this is confirmed, it should be posted as a sticky and the word spread widely so we can counteract this unethical sales practice of BMW!

BTW follow the link to the other responders, and watch their perceptions about the system. We could do this with hundreds of forums BTW.

thecardoc3 · March 2013

I'd tell them up front that I can't guarantee the performance of anything other than the BMW(or OEM supplier) sensors, and as a result I won't install substandard parts.

So now lets have this customer move the goal line on you, complain to the management and they in turn tell you to use the cheaper brand, and this time the repair is successful. What does that teach you as the technician?

imidazol97 · March 2013

Let's try another story where the rubber meets the road. I recently dealt with a tire store. I took my son's Cobalt there to have the aging cracks looked at. They are only on the outside tread ridge of the tire where the tread blocks wrap around the side; the blocks are wearing unevenly and roughly on the same block and there small cracks around the edge of each block on the sidewall. No other cracking between tread rows or on sidewall at flex areas.

First visit counter kid listens to my story, shows no interest in looking at the tires 25 feet from front door of Discount Tires probably because it's rainy and blustery, and gives me stories about popcorn dry rot and Hankook only adjusts for it up to 4 years from DOT data.

I emailed support at HanKook and got reply to take tires to same store as an authorized dealer to have them inspect tires and call her at a specific phone number. New counter guy next morning wants nothing to do with calling. Says it's not dry rot after looking at them at 8:15 am in dull dawn light. Said to drive them and enjoy because there's nothing wrong.

I email tech support with photos of same 2 tires. Support says it is dry rot based on photos and 5 years of age. Dry rot is mentioned nowhere on website OEM warranty as to no coverage or coverage.

Do I take email response from Hankook support to store manager to let him know what dolts he has manning his counters? One guy won't even go out in drizzle; other won't admit dry rot, warranty or not. Both made clear that they have no Hankook tires and want nothing to do with them, but could order them in, if necessary. Tires have 6/32 and 7/32 of depth out of 11/32.

Tires have been superb: Michelin round and smooth rolling. I've been run around because of store front people. Of course, I'll just replace with Michelins when my preferred local chain has another sale on 4.

How well did the store (and customer support handle this)?

roadburner · March 2013

How do you rate this BMW owners perception of the system?

I run into similar attitudes all the time(and not just with BMW owners), the owners who refer to "stealers" and/or "rip-offs" in nearly every post, Note that these guys are complaining about an added expense of @$20 per axle on a $80,000 car they are running at HPDEs. I have no sympathy for them; they don't want to take the time to learn how CBS works- they would rather complain. It wouldn't break my heart if they NEVER figured it out.

roadburner · March 2013

What does that teach you as the technician?

The aftermarket sensors worked THIS time on THIS BMW.

Actually, if I did run a shop I would specialize in perhaps two related brands at most, such as BMW and MINI. And if potential customers complained about the cost of doing things the proper way they would be encouraged to take their business elsewhere.

You know as well as I do that there are several varieties of BMW owners; the majority are what I call "affluent wearers" because they bought the car to use as a fashion accessory. If they bought new they will stick with the dealer 99% of the time. The next group would be the "impoverished wearers"- they purchased a high mileage V8 or V12 for $10,000 or less- conveniently forgetting that the car's original MSRP was more money than they earned in the past 5-7 years. All they want is cheap, whether it's a safety issue or a maintenance issue. Finally, there remains a small group of enthusiasts, and I've found that they tend to be either extremely nice or else they are complete jerks. The split is maybe 60% nice, 40% jerks.

Twenty years ago I was a 100% indie BMW shop patron. However, my local BMW dealer actually made a great effort to reach out to the core BMW Car Club demographic, offering discounts to members and support to the Club as a whole. They have a few advisors who are also Club members(my advisor has an E36 HPDE car as well as a Triumph bike, so to say we get along well is an understatement). On the other hand, he also treats my wife with respect and consideration to the point that she won't consider another make of car due to the treatment she receives at this dealer. No, they aren't the least expensive shop in town, but they do the job correctly- and don't try to upsell unnecessary work.

I'll also add that I take my Mazda to a dealer almost 100 miles away because of the abysmal reputations of the two local dealers- with respect to sales, service, AND parts. And while the dealer I use isn't as enthusiat-oriented as the BMW dealer, they still do great work.

bartbarter · March 2013

Sorry to go back a few pages -

"If you want to be waited on or helped at my local "X" chain store, it would be a good idea to slit your wrists and bleed on the floor---that *might* attract a sales clerk. "

ROTFLMAO!!!!! I'm cryin' here

Pete

thecardoc3 · March 2013

the owners who refer to "stealers" and/or "rip-offs" in nearly every post, Note that these guys are complaining about an added expense of $20 per axle on a $80,000 car they are running at HPDEs. I have no sympathy for them;

What kind of damage do you think they can inflict on a young technician just trying his/her best to do a good job?

thecardoc3 · March 2013

What does that teach you as the technician?

The aftermarket sensors worked THIS time on THIS BMW.

When their prior knowledge was just proven to be false, its a very demoralizing situation. However, the opposite event is lurking just around the bend which mirrors your friends experience. This all heads down the road to getting to be wrong both ways. The tech is wrong if he/she insists on the O.E. parts, and they are wrong when they use the non O.E. parts.

roadburner · March 2013

Have you been following that NYC ban on large size sugar-laden drinks? You get all points of view on the subject, and yet can we actually point to one party in the dispute as being "wrong"?

No. They all have their issues and their valid points.

You can argue the health aspects all day long, but my concern is the encroachment of government power. At what point does it stop? Can the state regulate fatty food or sugary drinks? Can it mandate the use of sunscreen on a beach? I remember when war was declared on Demon Tobacco; people who predicted that similar action would be taken against other unhealthy habits were ridiculed and/or shouted down. It's not so funny now...
In any case, my main issue with the Nanny State is that it is an unwarranted interference with the Law of Natural Selection.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2013

Sometimes government interference is absolutely necessary, as it was in the auto industry. The problem of course is not to create a slippery slope, but I think safety & emissions regulations on cars was certainly justified.

Every case of government regulation needs to be judge on its own merits, and never rubber-stamped.

But really, many industries cannot be trusted to look out for you. Anarchy is a very unpleasant existence....well, I might take that back in the case of Italy :P

roadburner · March 2013

What kind of damage do you think they can inflict on a young technician just trying his/her best to do a good job?

Again, I'm not defending those guys. As for the young technician, he needs to have sufficient supervision that his mistakes are discovered and corrected before any problems are created. Same for the oil pan/oil filter housing issue; there needs to be some oversight provided so that the majority of errors get caught.

thecardoc3 · March 2013

Why do that when its so much easier to just punish them for the mistakes?

roadburner · March 2013

Several years ago(when the truck was still under warranty) I had brought my X3 to my local BMW dealer for a scheduled service. BMW had announced in a TSB a couple of weeks earlier that a transmission software update was going online that fixed a problem with delayed upshifts on inclines, so I asked my advisor to update the X3 while it was in for service. This was on a Thursday. Friday my advisor calls to tell me that BMW was late in rolling out the update. However, if I didn't mind keeping the loaner(an X3 3.0 M Sport) over the weekend he would ship the TCU by Next Day Air to Woodcliff Lake where it would be reflashed at BMW NA- and he would have the truck ready to go by Monday afternoon.
It's a pleasure to deal with people who look for solutions rather than excuses.

roadburner · March 2013

Why do that when its so much easier to just punish them for the mistakes?

You do that because the customers will end up punishing your business-by not returning-when novice mistakes impact the customers' wallets. It's just poor management to let novices make mistakes at the expense of the consumer. And the word WILL get out.

busiris · March 2013

What kind of damage do you think they can inflict on a young technician just trying his/her best to do a good job?

Just about every employment position I can think of, from Walmart greeter to the CEO of a major multinational corporation has to face rejection and criticism at some point.

IMO, if a tech can't handle a little bad attitude or criticism (justified or not), he's going to ultimately fail in whatever job he attempts, be it car repair, grocery bagging or skyscraper design.

roadburner · March 2013

Just about every employment position I can think of, from Walmart greeter to the CEO of a major multinational corporation has to face rejection and criticism at some point.

I think learning and constructive criticism go hand in hand, but the business model should have an emphasis on learning for a neophyte.

thecardoc3 · March 2013

I think learning and constructive criticism go hand in hand,

There is the answer to a lot of the problems we face right there.

but the business model should have an emphasis on learning for a neophyte

An apprenticeship would provide such an atmosphere, but no-one wants to foot the bill. At one time a master tech would have some helpers under his wing and be their mentor and be rewarded for the effort. Then we were just supposed to help the kids out as an extension of our own job descriptions, without compensation. Over the years so much kept being taken away that eventually the time spent mentoring caused the master techs to fail produce the revenues the businesses demanded and some of them actually cost them their jobs for trying.

Now we not only have no mentoring, its been turned completely cut-throat inside the shops as well as business against business. All under the heading of trying to have cheaper prices to be more competitive.

crkyolfrt · March 2013

Synthetic (the word) gets thrown around fairly loosely..or at least did back a few years ago before/when Castrol got heat for calling their Syntec (a blended base stock i think?) a full synthetic. At the time there were also a few others jumping on the elusive extra-profit-margin-the-consumer-won't-know-any-better-bandwagon.

So fast forward a few years and here is what is written on my jugs of Motomaster Formula 1ª 100% Synthetic* (note the asterisk which is not used on the same product numbered jugs, I bought 18 - 24 mo after this first one). Motomaster is CTC (Canadian Tire Corp) home brand name of tons of products they purchase from various name-brand manufacturers, whose orders are made-to, refined-to, sized-to, priced-to etc their standards as per the profit margin they intend to extract. CTC is famous in Canada for everything from tires (how they started) to tools, sporting goods, hardware items, and even dry foods and detergents. Naturally, they are huge and have their own bank/credit card through Mastercardª.

I usually try to bulk-buy a number of jugs during Boxing Week sales, or the week just prior to Xmas also sometimes works. A 4 litre is/was the most common size here for the last 3 decades for everything from oil to windshield washer fluid. Then if they wanted to offer what they call a "special buy"..(and no rain-checks offered on special buys) they will sale-price a 4.4 litre size. But the latest grab-me marketing ploy is to size them at 5 litres. And regular price those at about 36.95 - 38.95 + plus 13% tax plus enviro fee..forget what that is but is high enough it too really adds up. For perspective, our Imp gallon is 4.54 litre.

All that said though...the most recent stratagem they engage in (and we aren't suppose to notice) is selling us 'your' American gallon..a 3.78 litre in a gallon-sized jug look-a-like. That size is becoming increasingly popular (not by the informed consumer of course) in items other than oil such as brake fluid, auto tran fluid, hand washing lotions etc) and sell it priced as if it was actually a 4 or 4.54 litre gallon. This type of subterfuge drives me crazy..they do with everything..[non-permissible content removed], block of cheddar, oil..you name it..

So the first batch of this stuff, since I started using it..I think was an autumn sale..22.95++ each.

Motomaster Formula 1ª 100% Synthetic* "Ultimate Protection Motor Oil" SAE 5W20.
4.4 litre size. On the front has the API Starburst that says For Gasoline Engines.
On the back it says the usual hype and claims:
>>Motomaster Formula 1ª Synthetic Motor Oil is engineered to provide ultimate engine protection, outperforming all leading synthetic blend and conventional motor oils by providing superior long lasting, year-round protection in extreme weather conditions.

¥ At extreme low temperatures: Provides outstanding lubrication to vital engine parts faster, reducing engine wear due to friction.

¥ At extreme high temperatures: resists vaporization and thermal breakdown, providing excellent lubrication to your engine under adverse driving conditions

¥ Designed for gasoline engines requiring API SM, SJ, SH and ILSAC GF-3 and GF-4 quality levels.

Symbol on back is red but no starburst fringes like on the front, API Service SM SAE 5w20 Energy Conserving.

Now the asterisk "*Exclusive of additive carrier oil"
Then has a Quality Approved symbol, says "Exceeds API SM, SJ, SH and ILSAC GF-3 and GF-4 service classifications.

At bottom says Motomaster Canada Toronto
__________________________
so second batch a half year or so later..

>>Motomaster Formula 1ª 100% Synthetic "Ultimate Protection Motor Oil" SAE 5W20. Note..has no asterisk this time.
5 litre size this time. On the front has the same API Starburst that says For Gasoline Engines.
On the back it says almost the same but with a few exceptions/changes:
Motomaster Formula 1ª Synthetic Motor Oil is engineered to provide ultimate engine protection, outperforming all leading synthetic blend and conventional motor oils by providing superior long lasting, year-round protection in extreme weather conditions.

¥ At extreme low temperatures: Provides outstanding lubrication to vital engine parts faster, reducing engine wear due to friction.

¥ At extreme high temperatures: resists vaporization and thermal breakdown, providing excellent lubrication to your engine under adverse driving conditions

¥ Here the wording is different! It says "Meets" instead of "Designed for" gasoline engines etc but adds the SN and drops the SJ, SH and ILSAC GF-3 and GF-4 and adds SL and ILSAC GF-5 requirements." It says: "Meets API SN, SM, SL, ILSAC GF-5 requirements". Old wording said "quality levels." This new SN will just coincide with the newer API's release of SN requirements of course given my purchase time a half year or so later.

Symbol on back is same but uses background coloring instead of the red, still has no starburst fringes, API Service SN SAE 5w20 Energy Conserving.

Has no Quality Approved symbol like the first batch. Has no asterisk after Synthetic, and at bottom says: "Made in Canada with domestic and imported parts." Motomaster Canada Toronto <<
(maybe some Texas base crude?)

Interestingly, years ago CTC used to always say, "bottled by Imperial Oil Ltd (your Exxon in the US) or Shell or whomever offered the best licensing deal at the time. Now they simply don't state anything other than indicate they make it themselves. Maybe they are big enough now that they DO make it themselves. I bet Walmart makes their ....forget their brand name right now..
___________________

Third batch I bought just this past Xmas had the same wording as the second.. but uses different formatting. Paid 21.88 ++ each for them. 5 litre size. Still a very good price if the stuff truly is a good full synthetic.

So I'd like Doc's opinion on this stuff given how few specifics it labels on it. The lack of specifics could be following the KISS formula, or could it be they purposely left out any more detail than what was given. What is your take on this wording regarding the asterisk: "*Exclusive of additive carrier oil" ?

According the OM for my CRV, its requirements are lose as hell. Has to be API and has to be 5W20. End of, lol..

Oh ya...of course it says throughout the OM, "Use of non-branded Honda (but similar) products is suggested to be removed and replaced with a Honda specific product at your earliest convenience." Now maybe it is important to use their named proper "Manual Trans Oil" but it actually says a 10w30 can be used in a bind. WHAT! I doubt THAT very much...they don't use the word 'bind' of course, but before I ran any old but good guality SAE 10w30 in there, I would have to be stranded with no 75W90 synthetic gear oil or 80w90 mineral gear oil available.

And

crkyolfrt · March 2013

And also, doc, your opinion on this..regarding using my 75w90 instead of their Honda tran oil..I really want to know, cuz I want to replace it as soon as I can find a dry place to park, but I want to use my 75w90 as a replacement, but not if it actually DOES call for a 10w30 type of oil only under Honda branded name. They might have said 10w30 cuz of being easiest to come-by in the middle of nowhere. My plan so far is to smell what comes out. If it smells like gear oil, you think I'm good to go with the 75w90? (if it does use a gear oil, it's probably superior to the expensive Honda Manual Tran oil) No matter what, it's surely going to have better shear-resistance than a 10w30 right?

I know auto tran are complicated enough that you are best to use home brand, but surely the manual tran is not in the same league of importance?

thecardoc3 · March 2013

I know auto tran are complicated enough that you are best to use home brand, but surely the manual tran is not in the same league of importance?

It's very easy to make an expensive mistake even with manual transmissions. A GL3/GL4 would meet the specs for some manual transmissions, but not yours. It's way too thick and could cause the transmission to be difficult to shift when cold. No clash mind you, but the oil litterally will be too thick to "get out of the way".

A GL5 can be a real problem if it is a version that isn't yellow metal friendly. Some GL5's use a significant dose of sulfur phosphates and they can definately corrode the brass blocker rings in the syncronizers in the transmission. The blocker rings job is to take two components that are spinning at different speeds and make their speeds match so that the shift can be performed. You can actually get some lubes that are so slippery that there isn't enough friction to quickly match the shaft speeds and that can result in clashing. 10W30 is a viable short term choice as it meets the viscosity requirements for the transmission and it doesn't attack the brass.

I'd have to count, but there are at least four different manual transmission fluids in our shop right now, and five different axle lubes. We also have (at least) seven different automatic transmission fluids. I'll only advise you to follow the manufacturers specs, if it doesn't call for gear lube then it should not get gear lube.

thecardoc3 · March 2013

Well this one could be real fun......

First visit counter kid listens to my story, shows no interest in looking at the tires 25 feet from front door of Discount Tires probably because it's rainy and blustery

So if it's nasty outside, then pull it inside and look. When a business has a name like Discount XXX or Bargain YYY people should really think a little more about how they can achieve better prices than everyone else.

From the E-myth. "You can have the best price, the best service, or the best quality. Pick any two."

and gives me stories about popcorn dry rot and Hankook only adjusts for it up to 4 years from DOT data

I'm not a tire store so I had to look up "popcorn dry rot" and it refers to a sound that the worn tire makes. Dry rot has a number of causes, one of them is specific kinds of tire shine polishes. It's also a condition that I don't encounter with my cars. I wear the tires out well before they get old enough to show rubber aging, and again I don't use tire shine products.

I emailed support at HanKook and got reply to take tires to same store as an authorized dealer to have them inspect tires and call her at a specific phone number. New counter guy next morning wants nothing to do with calling. Says it's not dry rot after looking at them at 8:15 am in dull dawn light. Said to drive them and enjoy because there's nothing wrong.

Weather checking and dry rot are not the same but can have similar appearance. Real dry rot is very obvious, the cracks are much deeper. The rubber feels hard compared to a new tire.

You can do a google for dry rot, and you will see pictures of tires that are clearly unsafe, and yet some that are really just weather checking and not a problem. But I have a rule, if your worried about it, throw them away and buy new ones, today. Because right now is the moment that you could be saying"'If only I had" about if something goes bad.

Do I take email response from Hankook support to store manager to let him know what dolts he has manning his counters?

What was the name of the business again?

One guy won't even go out in drizzle; other won't admit dry rot, warranty or not. Both made clear that they have no Hankook tires and want nothing to do with them,

I could do the same, order in the tires and try to have an adjustment done. Now I didn't sell them to you and the way tires get "adjusted" I'd likely lose about $20-30 per tire out of my pocket to do that for you, and there is no guarantee that you would become a customer for the effort.

but could order them in, if necessary. Tires have 6/32 and 7/32 of depth out of 11/32.

The point is, your raising a concern and this is about your kid, right? I'm not made of money but when it comes to my kid and her saftey in her car. I'd just throw them away at the first sign of trouble and never think twice about it. I don't even let her tires get below 4/32, nor any of my own for that matter.

xwesx · March 2013

Weather checking and dry rot are not the same but can have similar appearance. Real dry rot is very obvious, the cracks are much deeper. The rubber feels hard compared to a new tire.

I imagine I should probably replace the spare tire for my 1969 C20. It's original.

imidazol97 · March 2013

>discount tires...the name

The name misled: The Nation's largest independent tire dealer since 1960. Judging by tires they offer and the prices on comparables, they're competitive. I don't think they're the "discount" as in cheaper than anybody...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_Tire
http://dt.know-where.com/DiscountTire/

Frankly, I'd trust them more than Sears, who used to own the previous occupant of the building, NTB. But I was underwhelmed by the counter folks. My question is does the store manager want to know of the handling?

Although the one told me to drive and enjoy, I don't think the tires will be doing any summer trips because they'll have been replaced by then with Michelins. If I'd known my usual local tire chain, regional, had 70$ off 4 and if I'd had another couple days, I would have already had them replaced. I'll have to pick up the car from Columbus and bring it home to replace tires between now and May.

Weathering? or dry rot?

Should I tell the manager that his salesman recommended driving forever with no problem on these? Only the outer tread row shows this. The tires is as perfectly round as a Michelin.

busiris · March 2013

But I have a rule, if your worried about it, throw them away and buy new ones, today. Because right now is the moment that you could be saying"'If only I had" about if something goes bad.

For many years, I put between 12-16k miles a year on Harley-Davidsons. Time and time again, when I would have the bike in for servicing and a rear tire change, I would be told "your back tire has 1-2K miles left on it... Don't you want to wait?"

I always responded that I felt my life was worth more than a $200 rear tire...

fintail · March 2013

My mom had a car with tires like that - I told her to take it to the chain store (Les Schwab) and get their opinion - they seemed to think it wasn't a problem as well. Tires had no other problems and were only a few years old.

Speaking of tires, when I had my old car in the shop a couple weeks ago, on the invoice, they put "needs new tires" and then highlighted that in yellow. I got the hint :shades:

thecardoc3 · March 2013

Here's the rub. If I said that you had to replace them, how many people do you think you could find that would say I was trying to take advantage of you?

There's nothing wrong with them that new ones can't fix. :shades:
I'd be throwing them away at the first opportunity.

roadburner · March 2013

The point is, your raising a concern and this is about your kid, right?

Ditto. I sent my son to a two day driver training course designed especially for teens as well as Tire Rack Street Survival. They've already saved his bacon a couple of times.

crkyolfrt · March 2013

Ok, you sorta confirmed what my plan was. Besides smelling my old oil, I'm going to ask a couple dealers in the shop and see if they know whether it is gear lube or not. It has always been my assumption that gear lube was usually of the higher viscosity variety, but it would be great to find out I have made that mistake. I do believe that if Honda's Manual Tran oil is some form of a 10w30 or similarly light viscosity, then it must be one impressively capable 10w30..and probably what makes it good for the tranny would not stand up well in a crankcase. My main goal was to get a 100% synthetic happening in the entire drivetrain if possible to assist with cold start lubing and FE. (except for the rear axle "Dual Pump Fluid"..that one's a Honda proprietary fluid I wouldn't mess with)

Also good to know about the yellow metal considerations..but interestingly, given your info so far, I still don't know that you stock an alternative (to Honda's) manual tran oil if I wanted, or whether I could walk in with my engine oil and you vouch for it or not, given its labeling?
I say this because of your earlier extensive posts about there being so much more to the story than just acknowledging an API and GF ratings on the container? I went into great detail to tell you every single thing it says on the container (earlier you were curious about this when you were reading labels at that truck stop) and I get the feeling that if I showed up there, you'd feel better about using one of the oils you stock rather than this one, (even if I offered to pay you for your oil also to help retain those necessary margins, but still putting mine in the engine) even though this oil might be a superior oil on all levels?

crkyolfrt · March 2013

Great parental responsibility RB. I wish every family could afford to go that route. Our roads would be safer. In fact, you could take your kids (assuming they did well and have a natural aptitude for driving...I believe that is more crucial than the actual education enhancement) with questionable rubber (let's say 4/32 left on All Seasons) and they would be safer on a slushy road surface in an emergency maneuver than many a driver with brand new snows, whose driving is not really their forte.

thecardoc3 · March 2013

I do believe that if Honda's Manual Tran oil is some form of a 10w30 or similarly light viscosity, then it must be one impressively capable 10w30

You see reports of testing for products such as Amsoils use of the four ball test. That is a test for ball or roller bearings and has it's place when evaluating high pressure lubricants, but when used to suggest a products ability to protect engine components you will see considerable debate.

We could go into why CVT's have very specific lubricants too and what you discover is how there is much more to it than just viscosity.

then it must be one impressively capable 10w30..and probably what makes it good for the tranny would not stand up well in a crankcase

Engine oil has to protect the engine, guard against corrosion, provide cooling, protect the emissions system, etc. etc. Manual transmissions don't have anywhere near the same requirements, while that have other specific ones that engines do not have. While one product can do both (for a while) the reccomendation that the engine oil should be changed back out ASAP should be sufficient to inducate that there is a difference.

I stock Honda's manual transmission fluid as well as the VT+4 (sp?) differential lube. There are so many products on the shelf these days, that we look each one up and don't take the chance with using any alternatives.

If you walk in with your oil and you are driving a GM that requires dexos1. The only thing I need to know is provided by Canadian Tire.
Right here It is not approved for use in vehicles requiring dexos1.

I say this because of your earlier extensive posts about there being so much more to the story than just acknowledging an API and GF ratings on the container

As long as the vehicle you are wishing to have serviced doesn't require the HT-06 specification, then API SN, ILSAC GF5 is an approved choice.

I get the feeling that if I showed up there, you'd feel better about using one of the oils you stock rather than this one

We put in a lot of effort to make sure that we source the correct products, on each and every car. In many cases it means we have a lower GP for providing the same service than someone who chooses to use whatever they got on sale this week.

(even if I offered to pay you for your oil also to help retain those necessary margins, but still putting mine in the engine)

Do you realize how uncomfortable the entire transaction would have just become for us? If we use the wrong product, even if you provided it, we are liable should there be consequences. But lets say it goes to court and we actually win (doubtful) we still lost more just trying to defend ourselves than the entire job rendered to us in the first place. We actually have no choice but to decline servicing your car.

even though this oil might be a superior oil on all levels?

The most important word in that partial sentence is the word "might", because in reality "it might not".

Besides smelling my old oil, I'm going to ask a couple dealers in the shop and see if they know whether it is gear lube or not

Now is when it really gets fun. Why should they know? It's been such a mess getting people to see through questionable advertising methods that only a small percentage of techs and shops are truly up to date with this. Anyone reading Ron's article here in Edmunds get's to see enough contradicting information that it fails to clearly inform the readers as to what they really need to know. Do you really think that the conflicting information gets sufficiently challenged in every setting?

The right answer will be that you need to use the O.E. approved product. The specifications are published to allow other companies to compete for the business. Always look for the O.E. specifications to be listed on the product for your vehicle.

stickguy · March 2013

these are backward compatible, right? Meaning if I have a 6 YO car that at the time specified SAE J (or higher?), and today they are up to N or P, the newer specs cover the old ones too?

I assume they have to since the older ones no longer exist!

thecardoc3 · March 2013

these are backward compatible, right?

Not in every case. If you go back far enough you will find engines that required much higher levels of boundary lubrication than today's oils can provide. Likewise, You can still find appropriate products to service those engines on the market today. The one Royal Purple product comes to mind that explicitly states not for use in any vehicle after 2004.

Meaning if I have a 6 YOU car that at the time specified SAE J (or higher?), and today they are up to N or P, the newer specs cover the old ones too?

For the most part, yes.

When in doubt, consult a reliable source

From one of the links on that page

I assume they have to since the older ones no longer exist!

But they do exist! You can still find API SA, SB, etc on some store shelves even though they have been obsolete for decades.

roadburner · March 2013

I wish every family could afford to go that route. Our roads would be safer.

We were very fortunate to be able to send him to the two day school. That said, Street Survival only costs $75.

As an aside, I know a few kids in the local Mazda Club who who have poured thousands of dollars into their cars- but when I invited them to the local BMW club's two day track event they almost all begged off because "$400 is too much money" No one wants to spend money on the most important part of the car- the nut behind the wheel...

jipster · March 2013

These chains specialize in one service.So they should do better than a shop or dealership that does everything. Brakes are easy. Brakeway does a 4 wheel brake job for $129. That includes ceramic brake pads and turning rotors. That job is $500 at dealership. My Buick dealership wanted $210 to install a battery. Haha. No way.
Do these simple things yourself, or take to chain. For people on a budget or crappy car...is the best way to go.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2013

well the best I can say about that is that going there is better than not having any brakes at all.

stever · March 2013

Depends on the franchise owner too. I knew a good guy who ran a Midas and his shop did good work. But I think he retired and sold out (he started up in '78), so who knows now.

busiris · March 2013

well the best I can say about that is that going there is better than not having any brakes at all.

I agree. One reason these "shops" charge less is that they pay less, and accordingly, have less experienced service personnel. When a service tech's toolbox consists primarily of a screwdriver, ball-peen hammer, pair of pliers and a pair of vice-grips, I'm skeptical of his/her ability.

While there are certainly well trained/tooled shops in this segment, I've personally seen far too many stripped-out oil change plugs and rounded bolt-heads due to the wrong tool being used by an incapable tech.

If that's all one can afford, it's certainly better than nothing, I guess...

jipster · March 2013

You say that based on what? Don't be a hater unless you can back it up. :mad:

jipster · March 2013

One reason these "shops" charge less is that they pay less, and accordingly, have less experienced service personnel.

The reason they charge much less is overhead. It's much lower than indepenpent shops and dealerships. Look at all the tens of thousands cardoc has to spend on diagnostics, tools and software.

A tire or brake guy can build a simple cylinder block building,or lease out a building, buy tools and equipment specific to the product he is offering. He's in business at a fraction of the cost.

As for the service techs not being paid well, this is brake work, oil changes and tires. They aren't going to overhaul an engine. :P

obyone · March 2013

As for the service techs not being paid well, this is brake work, oil changes and tires. They aren't going to overhaul an engine.

So based on a specialized skill set what should the starting pay be? In the $8-$12 range? Would that be a little more or less than someone starting at McD's?

busiris · March 2013

The reason they charge much less is overhead. It's much lower than indepenpent shops and dealerships. Look at all the tens of thousands cardoc has to spend on diagnostics, tools and software.

Well, if you're simply talking about brake caliper/pad/shoe repair/replacement, that's completely true. Then again, they aren't even remotely qualified to address brake ABS control systems or anything related to the braking system once you move beyond the wheel itself, even then, there are some sophisticated brake components at the wheel level these shops aren't qualified to address (at least, I wouldn't allow them to touch my vehicle beyond the most basic repair).

A tire or brake guy can build a simple cylinder block building,or lease out a building, buy tools and equipment specific to the product he is offering. He's in business at a fraction of the cost.

Again, that's a true statement. He can probably stop by Harbor Freight on his way into the shop the very first day of business and purchase the hammer, screwdriver, channel-lock pliers and vice-grips he'll need to equip his tool box.

As for the service techs not being paid well, this is brake work, oil changes and tires. They aren't going to overhaul an engine.

Once again.... Correct. And, as the driver is watching the CEL and Oil lights illuminate on his dashboard 15 minutes after he departs the quickie lube and brake shop, because the "technician" neglected to tighten the drain plug, he can rest in the knowledge that the few $'s he save at the quickie lube were well spent. (I know of what I speak here. My daughter had to pick up a room-mate on her way back to college from Christmas vacation 2 years back because that very thing happened. Trying to do the right thing, she stopped by a quickie lube on her way back to college for a quick oil change. She ended up being stranded on I-40 about thirty minutes outside of Durham, NC on a Sunday night until my daughter got there. The car was towed to the closest dealership, where they found the drain plug missing, and the engine ruined.)

I'm not painting all these shops with a broad brush, but, unless one knows the quality and reliability of the shop's work, its "buyer beware".

Mr_Shiftright · March 2013

Based on junk like this put on by incompetent people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxkNZj0vRvg

HOWEVER (disclaimer) I do agree that, to some extent, the quality of the LABOR varies depending on the franchisee, but lets' face it, cheap parts are cheap parts and even Doc could not make a good brake job out of that stuff.

busiris · March 2013

The last 30-40 seconds of the video says it all.

And, we all know the quickie brake shop uses nothing but superior parts. That's how they can sell their services in such an inexpensive manner....LOL!

Mr_Shiftright · March 2013

Another problem with the chain stores is that, again, under certain types of owners/managers, there is some very aggressive up-sell going on.

So what you have is the unfortunate situation of being sold unnecessaryAND cheap parts. It's a double-whammy.

imidazol97 · March 2013

Some of the talk from the guy in the video sounds like double talk criticizing the competition and pretending to use something different in his shop. I'm especially interested in his story about the static causing the pad to stick. How do two metallic surfaces generate static electricity?

stever · March 2013

You guys talk like none of the independent shops exhibit the very same behavior.

At least if Jiffy Lube messes up, you can sue corporate and the franchisee and chances are better that the judge isn't related to anyone at corporate. Some of the indy shops may not have insurance and their tools of the trade may be protected from judgment.

busiris · March 2013

Some of the talk from the guy in the video sounds like double talk criticizing the competition and pretending to use something different in his shop. I'm especially interested in his story about the static causing the pad to stick. How do two metallic surfaces generate static electricity?

Wasn't he referring to brake dust binding to the wheel surfaces?

Remember, metallic construction isn't necessarily the same as 100% metal construction. Different materials display different electrostatic characteristics, but it'll take someone better versed in physics to get into the details of how and why.

Electrostatic "binding" is the basis of how power coated paint works, isn't it? Basically, that's what's happening as brake dusts binds to wheel surfaces.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2013

Didn't sound like double-talk to me.

cheap parts are cheap parts...there's little left to opinion here...either the $10 brake pads are just as good as the $150 brake pad or they aren't. Y'all can put whatever you want on YOUR car, I'm okay with that. :P

busiris · March 2013

At least if Jiffy Lube messes up, you can sue corporate and the franchisee and chances are better that the judge isn't related to anyone at corporate. Some of the indy shops may not have insurance and their tools of the trade may be protected from judgment.

From what I've seen over the years, only a small % of shop "screw-ups" ever make it into a court. Unless its in the high $$$ amount, most folks simply try to negotiate their best deal with the shop, and hope for some amount of satisfaction.

In the case of my daughter's classmate, her car was an older model, and she was in medical school, so she didn't have the time to actively pursue legal action. Her folks helped her buy another "very used" car to get her around, as she was already neck-deep in student loans.

I'd bet a very small % of claims ever actually go to court...

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