Attractive Older Cars and Why You Think So

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually your 850 would run rings around any 122 or P1800. They were slugs.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Not everyone will agree, but I've always had a thing for these cars.

    http://www.chrysler300clubinc.com/1957300c.htm
  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 343
    and truly fast. I loved all the Chryslers of the late 50s and early 60s.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Lots of people do. Those early letter 300s are worth money today.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It's certainly near the top of my list as one of the most attractive cars of all time. Danbury Mint makes very nice scale model of a 1957 300-C convertible.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I call a car like that "period attractive", which means attractive relative to what else was out there but not so attractive to most modern tastes. It is a bit too big and flamboyant. I always thought Virgil Exner (Virgil Excess as we call him) got carried away, but we can really blame tail fins on Harley Earle.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Remember when these cars were cheap? Even I could have bought one back in the early '70s. I couldn't understand it, they seemed so undervalued. Not enough chrome, I guess.


    Amateur photos on an enthusiast's site but you get the idea.


    http://members.tripod.com/j_jlincolns/mark.html

  • eglideeglide Member Posts: 6
    I always felt the Chevelles from that era were some of the sharpest cars Chevy ever made in stock trim. Maybe a little gaudy but not overdone. Of course the fact they had a 396 or 454 in them is coloring my perception!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    ...that Chrysler cars were fairly tasteful and restrained, compared to what GM and Ford were putting out in the '50's. By '59, it was a no-holds barred fight to see who could be the most tasteless and bizarre, but I thought the '57-58 Mopars were, for the most part, beautiful.

    I've got an old book somewhere called "The Great American Convertible" or something like that, written in 1979, when everybody thought the convertible was dead forever (and, well, big ones still are). One of my favorite lines from that book was concerning the '57 "low-priced-3". Something along the lines that the Plymouth was "too tasteful for the masses" and the Ford "had the vulgarity to be a winner".

    I like the 300-C, but I actually prefer the style of the regular '57 Chryslers and DeSotos to it (well, not the Firesweep). Of course, that 375 hp (didn't they have an optional 390 hp, as well) 392 Hemi made up for any styling disadvantage!
  • cowonthefarmcowonthefarm Member Posts: 3
    i gotta say for myself os the bmw 507 in the 50-60
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...wasn't the Firesweep merely a Dodge in DeSoto's clothing? I understand that in Canada they had Dodges that were merely Plymouths with Dodge front-end clips. I've heard them referred to as "Plodges."
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    ...the Firesweep was kind of like that, but a little more complicated. Back then, GM actually had different bodies...the A-body (Chevy/Pontiac), the B-body (Oldsmobiles and the lesser Buicks) and C-bodies (upper-end Buicks and the Cadillacs). All these different bodies were available on different wheelbases though.

    For '57, all Chryslers except Imperial shared one basic frame, that came in 118", 122", or 126" wheelbases. All that additional length went ahead of the firewall, so it gave you a longer hood but no more interior room. To make the Firesweep, they basically took a DeSoto body (passenger cabin/rear-end) and dropped it on a 122" Dodge frame. It had Dodge fenders and a hood, complete with the Dodge "eyebrows", but then a DeSoto grille stuck on underneath. The DeSoto grille stuck out further on the Dodge front clip than it did the "proper" DeSoto/Chrysler clip, so even though the car's wheelbase was 4" shorter, the overall length of the car only ended up being about 2" shorter (216" versus 218"). Oh yeah, and the car had Dodge 325's, with either 245 or 260 hp. I think the only real advantage it had over a Dodge was bigger brakes, although the car did win some kind of award that year from "Family Life" magazine or something like that. Consumer Reports ragged on the thing though, saying you might as well just get a Dodge. I always wondered why they didn't just take a Firedome and throw a Dodge engine in it, and maybe some cheaper interior trim, to make the Firesweep. Combining DeSoto and Dodge parts the way they did must've been a real hassle.

    As ugly as the '57 Firesweep was though, I thought the '58, with its more complex grille and quad headlights, actually looked pretty good, although I'd still rather have a real DeSoto! I came close to buying a '58 Firesweep 4-door sedan for $800 back in early 1995. It was owned by a guy up north of Baltimore near the PA line, who had a thing for '59 DeSotos, so he was selling everything he had that wasn't a '59. I would've gotten it too, but there was someone else who had first dibs on it. If that deal fell through, it would've been mine. Unfortunately, that guy decided he wanted it! It had a 350 2-bbl with just a 2-speed Powerflite, but it seemed to run pretty well.

    I think those Canadian Dodges were called Crusaders or something like that. I've seen a few pics of them from time to time. Chrysler also had an export model called the DeSoto Diplomat, which was a Plymouth with a DeSoto grille and trim grafted on (but still with Plymouth fins, on the years that had fins). For its final years, I think it was identical to the full-size early 60's Darts.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Andre you usually have such impeccable taste ;-).


    I've always liked the '54-6 Buicks. At first I liked the Centurys better because they're faster but now I like the senior Buicks--Roadmaster and Super--better because the longer wheelbase helps them look less boxy.


    I think the '54 is the cleanest, as the first year usually is. The '55 is the most Baroque in a relatively tasteful Harley Earl sort of way. The '56 isn't as clean as the '54 and it isn't as over the top as the '55 so I give it a solid third place.


    I had a '54 Special that barely ran but it was an interesting car. 264 V8 with three on the tree and 3.90 axle ratio. The dash was a work of art and in remarkably good shape. Just needed an engine rebuild but I didn't have the money and sold it in less than a year. One of the few cars I'd like back.


    http://www.timolson.com/buickfr.htm

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Okay, Andre, this one's for you--swept-wing styling, aircraft-type engine and all.


    http://www.classicroad.com/vintads/dodge19572.JPG

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    I always liked the trick photography they used back then to make those cars look longer and lower than they really were. Dodge's tailfins were kinda neat too, almost looked like they were detachable!
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Many years ago--maybe around 1961--I was with my father on one of his beater hunting expeditions. I really enjoyed them and come to think of it I still do--I'm the only person I know who actually likes going to car lots.

    Anyway I distinctly remember a '57 Dodge two-door hardtop, kind of a coral red and very shiney, looking gorgeous under the lot lights. It just looked so hot. That's probably hard to believe now.

    Here's a link to when the dream started to go horribly wrong:

    http://www.classicroad.com/vintads/dodge59brochyre.jpg
  • mdelrossomdelrosso Member Posts: 18
    Well, this is an interesting topic. As a collector, I own a '63 Corvette and a '65 Caddy convertible I believe that just about any GM from '63 through '68 are beautiful.Best examples are: any '64 -'68 Caddy.'64 -'67 IMPALA! with '65 and '67 the absolute best. '65-'66 Buick LeSabre/Skylark.
    Every manufacturer tried to copy GM in the '60s. Chevy sold 1 million Impalas in '65 alone and GM was on strike for 4 months! I remember my uncle ordered a '65 Malibu in Oct'64 and had to wait until Jan to get it. I understand that Mr Cafaro the current Chevy designer claimes the "00 Impala is based on '65 Impala styling...is he on drugs or what. The currect iteration is ok but is NO '65! Although,I understand that Mr. Lutz, the new GM President, is looking back to the future to design cars as beautiful as the GM styles of the '50s and '60s. It's about time!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, you'd think the execs at GM would have noticed by now that people go nuts at car shows when they see a '57 Chevy.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    ...I see shades of vintage GM in there, but definitely NOT '65! I see a bit of '62 Biscayne/Bel Air in the back, '95-96 Caprice/Impala SS in the roofline, and '81-85 Impala in the grille.
  • udasaiudasai Member Posts: 6
    Plenty more, of course, but here are a few:

    1960 Buick
    - Nice swoopy style, 1 year only. Much better looking than either '59 or '61.

    1962 Pontiac Lemans (with the metal fins)
    - Swoopy style too, only year with the fins, prior to the de-styled '63 Tempests and the ho-hm '64 and up A-body Tempests.

    1964 Olds
    - Straight, squared off, very nice.

    1965-6 full-sized Pontiacs
    - Love the crease on the sides. True "wide track".

    Late 60s-early 70s XKE Jags
    - Possibly best styled cars ever. Datsun Z cars look like they tried to rip it off, but with a typical Japanese lack of style.

    Early 60s Lincolns
    - Immaculate. Unfortunately they mucked up the smooth sides in the mid 60s, just because they had to change something.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Well, the '60 Buick is an interesting choice. My parents had a Le Sabre and my grandparents an Invicta. I lean toward the '59s though--they're just more uninhibited.

    The '62 Tempest is a VERY interesting choice but I'm still with you. A little Iron Curtain looking but lively.

    I don't know about the '64 Olds though. A friend had one, and I had a '63, and they just don't do much for me.
  • jwilberdingjwilberding Member Posts: 25
    I like the boxy and muscualr look of the '88-'91 e30 M3 with the big fender flares. Another great one is the Renault R5 Turbo....less than 200 correctly imported into the US. The E30 M3's are great track cars and daily drivers and the values are holding very strong. I think they are the best collectible BMW from the last 15 years.

    how about the MG GTB, Jensen GT and BMW M Coupe? the fishbowl styling is an aquired taste, but it grows on some...including me!
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Here's a link to maybe my all-time favorite, certainly one of my top five. They're not much to drive, if my '56 was typical, but it almost doesn't matter. It's amazing how much cleaner these cars were than just about anything else on the road then, and for years after.


    http://www.familycar.com/53stude.htm

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    I used to get a ride to school in one of these. The coupes don't seem to be all that expensive. Shifty, how do they drive?


    http://home.tiscalinet.be/carrera-speedster/evolution.htm

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Carreras, or the cars in general? Just great. Still very competent on the road, rather noisy of course, but a lot of fun to drive and a very solid, well-built car. The Carrera engines are very complex, however, so most people keep them on a shelf and run a stock Porsche pushrod engine.

    Yep, you can still buy a very nice Porsche 356 Coupe pushrod, As or Bs, for $10K-15K, with the sunroof 356Cs pushing well over 20K for restored ones. The Cs have disc brakes which everybody likes of course. The old Carreras are very expensive, with some models over $100K.

    As for styling, the 356 body never knocked me out. It's okay, but especially in the early models, the As or pre-As, its rather clumsy-looking.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Buick Reattas?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I never personally saw anything exceptional about the styling myself. Looks like any other 90s GM car, Beretta, Cavalier, etc. Kind of a bigger, fatter Mazda RX-7.

    Not an unattractive car, but I don't see where it stands out from the pack.
  • dennisjhsdennisjhs Member Posts: 15
    Although most American vehicles of the past half century seemed to have styling excess on their mind; two vehicles seem to stand out for their clean lines and freedom from the "cluttered look":

    1) 1961-1969 Lincoln Continental; clean, lack of excessive chrome, large, yet, graceful in design.
    The Industrial Design Institute awarded the staff the Bronze Medal...one of few automobiles to have ever been honoured.

    2) 1953 Studebaker Starliner Hardtop. Fine example of clean design. Nothing seems out of place; timeless design.... Most vehicle designs look dated in a few years; this one keeps looking better and better as it ages...

    There are many vehicles, both American and foreign that can claim timeless grace in design (i.e., Jag E types esp series 1-1A)..But, these two American vehicles belong on any list...
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    How about the 70-73 firebird? The sister camaro is a fine looking vehicle too...but I always thought the firebird front end looked a little more aggressive. Any thoughts?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    I thought that '70's generation was a nice looking car right up until the style where the grille was mounted below the quad headlights. I forget if it was '78 or '79 when they restyled. All I remember was that in "Smokey & the Bandit", I liked that Trans Am, but I didn't like the one they used in "Smokey & the Bandit II" !
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    While 2nd gen F-bodies(70-81) are my favorite...I pretty much echo your sentiment. Yes, '79 was when they tweaked both the front and rear(never really though of it that way, but your right, the grill was under the headlights!)...and that was the last cosmetic change for that body style art until the 3rd gen debuted in '82.

    Exterior changes made to the 2nd gen over it's run were well thought out(interiors were basically same design)...and really the cars do look different if you were to compare a '70 to an '81 model.

    most significant interior change could be the speedo:)
    1970 speedo went to 160 mph...1981 went to 85 mph.

    Very sad to see the f- body disappear after 2002...
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    I remember looking at these cars in the showroom when they first came out. I thought they were the cutting edge of car design at the time. I liked the Camaro too, but something about the Firebird front end made me like it the best. I had read about these cars in my magazines for months before they came out, so when I finally went to look at them, I was already pumped, and thought they were just great. The whole package. And, I was a college student at the time, could only dream about buying one. But if I had been able to buy a new car at the time, the Firebird 400 or TransAm would have been among my top 5 picks. Anyway, I always thought when they wrapped the rear window around [was that '73 or 74?] it kind of spoiled the original design, and every facelift after that only made the car look worse. Also, I never liked vinyl tops on these cars, as I thought it totally chopped up the clean, flowing lines of the body. Those 70-71 Firebird/Camaro bodies were, I think two of the best looking American cars, and belong on the most beautiful list.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Whoa. Big difference between a 4-cam Carrera and a Regular Pushrod 356!

    First of all.. even if ya have the "Jack" you really dont want a 4-cammer as a driver. Parts are very rare, tough to find, and there's like 2 or 3 people in the world who know how to PROPERLY rebuild one of those engines. And figure a proper 4-cam engine rebuild will cost about what a nice 356 pushrod Cabrio will cost. IIRC, about $30-40K.

    Also, thats a VERY tempermental engine. They are only happy at high revs. Puttering around town in one can ruin it.

    If you get a pushrod 356.. go for a Super (75hp) known as a 1600S on 356A models. On 356Bs, you want a "S" (75hp) or a "Super 90" (Says "90" on the decklid for 90hp). On Even later cars, the 356C models, the 60hp engine (aka the "Normal") was ditched. Only the S and the "SC" engines existed. In the 356Cs, you really want the 95HP SCs.

    Cs are nicer because they have Disc Brakes on all corners too.

    There's a LOT of things to watch for on 356s though... rust, incorrect parts..ad nauseum.

    Bill
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    Actually, it was '75 when they wrapped the rear glass. I'm sure you remember that the firebirds(esp. the T/A's) were considerably more $$$ than the camaro(hence production number differences). I am the 2nd owner of an original low mileage '71 esprit- the luxury firebird. The original owner had the foresight to save much of the original documentation, including the window sticker. It's a fairly high optioned vehicle, stickered for $5200. A similar camaro was in the $4000-4200 range. But I agree...there is something about that 70-73 front end that makes those cars more attractive than the later 2nd gen models, IMO.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Thanks for the info. I know nothing about these cars except how it feels to get a ride to junior high school in one--lots of fun. Before I leased my present car I looked at prices and was surprised by how cheap the coupes are--must have just seen ads for the pushrods. A few years ago I followed a coupe up a winding mountain road (very slowly) and had a good chance to admire it. Not practical as a daily driver (but since when has that stopped me?) but some day it would make a great second car.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Sounds like you have a pretty nice car. What color, engine/trans is it? I've thought of buying one of those from the early 70s, looked at several over the years, if I could find a nice original or one that's been cared for. Trouble is, so many of them were thrashed/raced by kids [like I used to be] that many of them are all used up or junked by now. The bodies tended to rattle and get loose, doors, etc over years of heavy use. But, if I found a really nice one sometime, who knows?
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    My car is cameo white with a black vinyl roof. It is equipped with the little known 400 2bbl...a $52 option over the standard 350. It produces about 15-20 hp more... not quite sure what the PMD marketing folks' strategy was behind that option. It does have the THM 400 trans though. AM/FM stereo, 8 track, tilt, and A/C are the other options...and all work. You are absolutely correct about the difficulty in finding an original in good condition, regardless if its a base model or a T/A. Poor body integrity also is a big contributor to the scarcity.

    Oddly enough- on ebay just the other day there was a 71 esprit- springfield green w/ white vinyl top, green interior 350 motor, no A/C and original AM radio. Original car with 65k, a "grandma car".Whoever got it got a heckuva buy, I think it went for around 3k. They're still out there, you just have look a little harder than you would say for a 60's mustang or 67-69 camaro.
    Oh, I just remembered... I also a '70 esprit on www.collectorcartrader.com. Been for sale for awhile, ad claims its original 60k and in mint shape. Asking $5500 OBO. Its somewhere in NY, however. If I see anything else I'll holler for you on this board.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    The 400-2v was the "turnpike cruiser" option also available in the GTO. The idea was that a large displacement low-reving engine with 2v and high compression would give both good fuel economy and good power. Pontiac offered this engine for years.

    Usually it was combined with tall gears--you may have 2.56s. It makes a lot of sense in an Elite, which is more oriented toward quiet luxury than performance. I had a '68 Cougar "6.5 Litre" XR-7 with the same idea, a high compression 390-2v.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,088
    I'd imagine that it would have a lot more low-end grunt than a 350, even if it only had 15-20 hp more. Probably had a lot more torque, too. Was the 350 a 2-bbl or a 4-bbl? From a standstill, won't a 2-bbl sometimes actually take off faster, up to, say, 30 mph or so? I'd heard this, because the primaries on a 4-bbl are usually smaller than a 2-bbl, so the 2-bbl is actually at an advantage until the 4-bbl's secondaries open up, that is! My dentist used to buy big Chevies back in the day, and he said he always tried to get a 4-bbl, because, as long as you didn't put your foot into it, you could get better mileage than a 2-.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Thanks, all for jumping in, but please, let's not start another Chevy V-8 discussion. This topic is about styling.

    thanks!

    Host
  • mrluthermrluther Member Posts: 23
    After putting a message on the ugly cars board...here we go! Without a doubt my all time fav is the Stone Woods and Cook Swindler A Willys gasser. I have never seen anything the even comes close to the uniqueness of that car.
    Some other Fav's
    65 Mini cooper S
    63 Citroen DS19-21
    Subaru SVX
    Acura NSX yeah!!
    Sox and Martin 1965 Pro stocker
    Fiat 500 Topolino
    Hillman Minx
    Dodge challenger 70's one
    1940 Ford coupe Bogie's car in the Big Sleep
    1968 Sunbeam Alpine love it!!!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I can see the outrageous, the charming, the classic and the basically harmless in your list, but how in the world did you come to include the Hillman Minx? It hits the counter like a counterfeit quarter amid all the pleasant jingle of your other picks.
  • rea98drea98d Member Posts: 982
    "Stone Woods and Cook Swindler A Willys gasser."

    Good lord almighty! They actually named a car that? What on earth was the guy that came up with that name thinking/drinking/smoking?
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    All Lincoln Continentals from the 1960s.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...but I believe the Cadillac Sevilles from 1992 on are some of the most attractive cars ever made!
  • mrluthermrluther Member Posts: 23
    Please allow me to clarify... the car I was talking about was a 1941 Willys coupe that was supercharged and raced in the gas classes during the 1960's in the NHRA. It was owned by Leonard Stone, somebody Woods and Doug Cook. They built at least 3 different versions but I like the Swindler A model the best. Big John Mazmanian also had a big red model that was similar. If you would like to see what I like about this vehicle you can find many sites devoted to old Gassers on the net.Cheers!! Mike
    P.S. I used to live in West Sussex for a time and I often miss the beauty of England.
  • rea98drea98d Member Posts: 982
    Ok, I won't hold anything against the car itself, but that is an awful strange name.

    England?

    Oh, the flag. I'm a Texas boy myself, I just have the flag 'cause my dream car is British, and the Lone Star Flag isn't one of Edmund's options.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    http://www.ephemeranow.com/cars/cars001.htm


    They should have never moved away from these styling cues. Waterfall grille, "cruiseline ventiports" and bombsight hood ornament. What more does a car need?

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Torpedo styling.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't like how it makes the doors fat, however. But this was the era when running boards were disappearing and you can see the vestiges of them. As time went on, fenders, truck and running boards all "melted" into the body. This car shows a transition to that.
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