Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

lbthedawg · February 2002

You know if Toyota was in the hole business I'd say they just dug a bigger one.

They cannot specify where or who changes you oil. No questions, no stipulations. All they can say is change it. Just as there are incompetent workers at Jiffy Lube, there are incompetent workers at Toyota dealers (hard to believe that?) They cannot deny warranty coverage for an individual that performs their own maintenance. The policy they have just rolled out, while not doing that specifaclly, comes extremely close.

And while none of the Toyota sales people who are congregating here want to say it, they have no idea why oil is failing nor do they have a solution. And on top of that, if your vehicle fails when this non admission of fault expires, your out of luck. Now isn't that a great way to treat a customer?

Like I said at the start, Toyota has just dug a bigger hole, good luck.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2002

Peter, you asked:

3.) I change my own oil every 3,000 miles. Does that mean, since I don't have a Jiffy Lube
receipt, I am not covered?

I would think that no, you aren't covered. How could you prove you met the basic requirements?
Word of honor?

Class Action Lawsuits: --Let's get at least one thing straight here. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. You don't need a just cause, or does filing a suit imply even a shred of legitimacy to a claim.

I can sue any of you for directing pink rays from Mars into this forum, ruining my computer. Of course, if you'd like to settle out of court and save yourself the trouble...ahem....I am open to negotiation.

smith53 · February 2002

does the oil changer at your local toyota dealership really make that much more than the guy at jiffy lube? i doubt it. car dealerships rarely use mechanics to change oil instead they usually use the gofer or the car wash guy or may have, if the volume is great enough a guy who does nothing but oil changes and tire rotations.

jj35 · February 2002

We still have a lot of conflicting information out there about when to change the oil to avoid sludge. I am not convinced that frequency of oil changes has anything to do with the sludge development we are seeing in some Toyotas, but since that seems to be Toyota's reason, they should at least have some consistent answer about when to change the oil. But I can't even figure out what Toyota is recommending. First, my manual (2000 Sienna) says 5,000 miles if you drive on dusty roads, tow heavy loads or do frequent starts and stops in belowing freezing weather and all others should change oil every 7,500 mile. Toyota's website says pretty much the same for 1996 and newer vehicles as my manual with a few extra severe (5,000 mi.) conditions. Using the website and my manual I would still fall in the 7,500 mile category. However, one Toyota dealership near me says that I must change my oil every 3,000 miles because of severe driving conditions in Florida. Nowhere in the manual or on Toyota's website does it mention a 3,000 mile interval and none of the severe conditions described for the 5,000 mile interval would be specific to Florida driving conditions. Now, another dealer that I am now using is giving me synthetic oil for the price of regular oil and is saying I can "extend" my oil changes to 5,000 mile intervals. I guess with all of this inconsistency, it is best to go with the lower numbers, but all I can say is no wonder Toyota owners are confused about when to change the oil.

catgem · February 2002

I got my letter from Toyota today. No matter what happes,I plan to keep on doing my oil changes AT Toyota,every 3000 miles. I also plan to trade the Sienna in,in 2 years,as my kids are getting older. In order to get a fair trade in,I will probably get another Toyota. Otherwise,I may not get a good trade in value. I harbor no grudge aginst Toyota. They did what all businessmen do. I am not saying I like it,but that is how businesses run. They are not running a charitable foundation.

jj35 · February 2002

Meant to put this in my earlier message. Here is a news article that came out Friday regarding the Toyota sludge issue:

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=1534

jj35 · February 2002

Here is another Toyota Sludge article. This one is a little one-sided (only Toyota's, none from the affected customers) but still shows that this is a real issue.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-000010008feb09.story

fxashun · February 2002

Where's Pilot?
And I like that article in that post jj. You'd think I wrote it.
I especially like
"Like more than 3,000 other owners who have complained to Toyota about vehicles equipped with two of the automaker's core engine families - the 1MZ V-6 and 5SFE inline 4"
looks like a cut and paste of one of my posts.

Oh yeah Cliffy....Told you and Wenyue ago this was a Toyota problem and they were gonna have to deal with it.

You think it got heated in here at times. Check out the flames here...cyw0 ""Most post 1992 Camrys have sludge problem and will seize" rumor" Apr 22, 2000 8:28am .

armtdm · February 2002

As it appears that Toyota does not have a solution to the cause of the sludging but mandates oil changes now every 3,750 miles I suggest that for those owners (and until the owner's manual can be changed) with a manual that states 5000/7500 changes Toyota provide free changes every 3,750 miles until the warranty peiod is over.

Nice spin control on their part but that's exactly what it is and also obvious no one beileves their story. Well, hope the people affected on this board get their rebuilt engines.

Personally, my current 92 Toyota will be the last one I own. There is not doubt in my mind that they built their reputation for durability and reliability and are now cheapening the car to rake in the profits in the hopes the consumer will never notice!

pdalpsher · February 2002

READ THE INFORMATION CAREFULLY...I also checked out the information on Toyota's web site. There is a note that temperatures under freezing and over 90 degrees are also 'severe conditions' as they are not 'temperate climates'. This is in the first paragraph under the heading for 1996-current models.

Your dealer isn't responsible for you not following their recommendations!

My dealer in VA recommends 3500 miles and the cost of doing at the dealer vs Jiffy Lube is worth it to me. How many oil changes at Jiffy Lube don't even change the filter?

Get a good dealer...I go to one who is in the President's club. They take their ratings seriously. They also provide a complimentary 'shuttle' to downtown and a ride back to the dealer in the evening, even if you are just getting an oil change.

ralpi · February 2002

New to the board, but being owner of 2000 Sienna obviously find the info important. I have had no problems with my wifes van in our 23k miles, and have had the oil changed by dealer 4 times since new.
I usually do my oil changes myself, but wanted the dealer to do this since it was such an expensive (for us) vehicle.
Questions:
would using synthetic oil (I have used Castrol Syntec in my own car) help? I guess I could ask the dealer to use synthetic, but then you never know if they really did, and charged you more anyway. And if I do it myself, will an Auto Barn receipt be good enough if I have a warranty claim?
Also, the "one year from date of letter" is scary, what happens in 2 years? I will have the vehicle for 3 more years.
I will now be changing oil every 3.5k miles, and thinking of alternating between myself doing it and the dealer, so at least I am covered by receipts.

mrrogers · February 2002

synthetic oil to their Lexus/Toyota dealer for their oil changes, then ask that the empty oil bottles be returned to them.

zielinw · February 2002

If one has to bring their own oil to the dealer to insure the proper oil is used, and then ask for the empty bottles back, I would question why use that dealer? If I were a crooked dealer, I would just drain your "good oil" into a empty container, and give you your empty bottles back.

armtdm · February 2002

Castol Syntec is not synthetic oil! Dino regurgitated via the new hydrocracking process!

dweezil · February 2002

of discussion about mileage intervals for oil changes.Why no concern over time??? In other words; you may very well change oil every 5000 miles, but those 5000 miles could have been covered over an 8 or 9 month period. That would qualify to me as lack of proper maintenance as you will have encountered all sorts of cold short runs, idling in traffic, stop and go and plenty of outside temperature changes.
This is a Toyota neutral post. I've been following this topic for quite awhile and just read the last 100, and have noticed that there is more a concern about mileage rather than number of months in deciding when to do an oil change.
Don't think that a dealership in deciding whether or not to honor a warranty claim will not look at 6 to 9 month intervals [albeit only 4500 miles covered ]as abuse or lax attention to your vehicle.
I am just saying keep this in mind. Maybe I am a little paranoid, but any car I have ever owned has gone in every 3 months regardless of mileage.I do not think that anyone here in L.A. can claim anything LESS than severe duty and should follow the severe duty sched. {which I am NOT suggesting everyone needs to do here,just suggesting another factor} Mileage is NOT the only part of the equation.
This is an observation from reading so many of the posts, not an accusation or inference of stupidity. But is there not a time frame suggestion in the owner's manual as well?? That is JUST as critical. I cannot imagine anyone going in once a year for an oil change even under optimum conditions!That would be leaving a LOT of acid, gasoline, pollutants and poison in your crankcase for a VERY long time.

jovmarshall · February 2002

Early 2001 we bought a used 1999 Toyota Sienna by October of the same year it was smoking due to a clogged PCV valve and I took it into the dealership in Florida. They said my engine was sludged (no mention that the smoking was due to the PVC) and that it was my fault and it would cost me $8000, thank you very much. Knowing a little about the causes of engine sludge and knowing that my oil had been changed regularly this made absolutely no sense to me. It also didn't sit right with the mechanics that I know including a long time friend who has been a mechanic at a Toyota dealership in California for many years now. To make a long story short, he said that it was a known problem, that had I been able to bring my car there they would have repaired it, no questions asked. He said that the cylinder (#6?) overheats and warps just enough to cause the sludge but woudn't necessarily register in any tests and wouldn't always cause an immediate problem. Just as suggested by the mechanic, Mr. Perry, in the article found at http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=1534

There is no doubt in my mind that the sludge was not due to my lack of maintenance and I don't think the problem is Toyota specific, so I am not here to argue that. I do have a major gripe with Toyota though. The dealership we went to in Florida handled us so badly. We even had a few independent diagnostic tests done and the dealership refused to offer any other solution other than replacing our engine, $8000 thank you very much! I feel we were hard balled.

*****

The worst part of it to me may just sound like whining to some but at the time we discovered the problem with our van the movers were already scheduled to pack us out for our overseas move with the Navy. The dealership refused to budge and our only alternitive was arbitration which we didn't have time for. We couldn't ship a car with so many problems overseas to be our transportation for the next 3 years so we were forced to trade it in at a huge loss. We got a Honda Odyssey and are happy with it. Now we are here in Italy and come to find out, had we been able to wait a few more months Toyota would have fixed our van!!!!!!!!!!

What about us? What about the negative equity we rolled into our new vehicle?!?

Make no mistake about it, this is a problem with Toyota. Until they change the manual to read the that the oil must be changed every 3,500 miles under any conditions, with synthetic oil only and only at the Toyota dealer (as suggested would have prevented the sludging by the dealership in Florida) they are responsible for the repairs.

sandman46 · February 2002

We found our sludge problem at 80k. The dealer did all our oil changes at 7.5k miles as per the manual. I even asked about going with a 4k or 5k change schedule but was told that 7.5k was fine and wouldn't hurt the car. Wrong! Their mechanic pulled me aside and said dump this puppy asap, which we did a few weeks later. I really liked the car and would've kept it for a work beater but... In my case though, with the 80k miles, would Toyota have fixed my car for free? Any response would be appreciated even though it's fairly moot at this point!

suvshopper4 · February 2002

Someone above asked where to get oil changes.

I just tried a Toyota Express Lube yesterday, for the first time. No appointment necessary, and the price was a reasonable US$24.95, plus they vacuumed my interior and topped off my other fluids.

This was at a dealer other than the one where I bought my RAV4; this one's closer, and I didn't have to make an appointment 4 weeks out, which is what my original dealership needs me to do for a Saturday / while-I-wait oil change and tire rotation! Now I'll have to do my own tire rotation (wish I had a paved driveway), as this dealer's Saturday service is ONLY the Express Lube. It won't hurt me to get my hands a little dirty working on my car again, I suppose.

Because of the convenience, and the Toyota documentation of the oil change, I'll be happy to go back to the Express Lube dealership every 5,000 miles, other than my every-15,000 mile services, which I'll continue to have done at my original dealership.

armtdm · February 2002

Well, I disagree that oil must be changed every 3 months regardless of mileage. (only if you live in a cold climnate and once started drive the engine less then 10 miles) On my 92 Camry I go 7,500 between cahnges and that usually takes 7-8 months. Been doing it since new, switched to synthetic at 1000 miles, now 141,000. Not a one of my five cars gets a oil change every 6 months, never mind 3. Two are now once a year.

Time no longer important IMHO unless you live in a cold climate and do short trips.

ocelot1 · February 2002

What's jiffy lubes primary oil? Penzoil and if you call penzoil they say not to Run their oil Over 3k for fear of sludge forming. This is straight from penzoil 1-800.So how many oil manufactures promote longer than 3k changes a few yes but all NO. So what dose this mean,you can go 5k or 7500k if you use a approved oil brand? And WHY do VW/GM/volvo/Bmw.AND many other manufactures have oil monitoring systems that let changes go well beyond7500k with oil you can buy any where? Just a few Questions, and I do not own a toyota now But I have owned a 96T100 97rave 98rave 98tacoma with no problems except for th 96 T-100 having the head gasket fail at 50k replaced under warranty and transfer case fail at 55k under warranty with no hassels

8u6hfd · February 2002

http://www.toyota.com/html/about/news/archive/press_release/product/docs/2002/20020208_spa.jsp#factsheet

Toyota Special Policy Assures Customer Satisfaction And Emphasizes Importance Of Proper Vehicle Maintenance

February 8, 2002 -- Torrance, CA -- Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., has implemented a Special Policy Adjustment (SPA) as a measure to insure customer satisfaction for a very small number of Toyota and Lexus owners who may have experienced a condition known as engine oil gelling, which can be caused by a lack of proper vehicle maintenance.

This condition, not unique to Toyota or Lexus products, tends to occur due to three factors. Changing motor oil less frequently than the recommended interval is the primary cause along with short, stop-and-go-driving cycles and cold weather climates. Symptoms of oil gelling include blue smoke coming from the tailpipe and/or excessive oil consumption, which may cause the malfunction indicator light (MIL) to illuminate.

If a customer vehicle exhibits signs of oil gelling, and the owner can show reasonable evidence of regular engine maintenance, Toyota will cover expenses related to the condition. This one-time goodwill gesture provides coverage for circumstances that would not be covered under warranty and is offered on a case-by-case basis for one year.

"We're not aware of any cases of oil gelling in properly maintained engines," said Bob Daly, TMS group vice president and general manager of Toyota Customer Services. "The vast majority of Toyota owners, and motorists in general, regularly maintain their vehicles and will never encounter this condition. But for some, busy schedules, budget considerations or misunderstanding of what constitutes 'normal' versus 'severe' driving conditions may result in neglecting their vehicle.

"Even though the complaint rate is extremely low, we think this is the perfect opportunity to go the extra mile to emphasize the need for proper maintenance of any vehicle and to spare a very few owners costly repairs," added Daly.

Letters reminding customers about the importance of keeping up with their vehicle's recommended maintenance programs and detailing the specifics of the SPA were sent to owners of potentially affected vehicles beginning in February 2002. Vehicles involved in this SPA include certain 1997-2001 model-year vehicles with four- and six- cylinder engines.

Toyota and Lexus owner's manuals stipulate oil changes every 7,500 miles or six months, whichever comes first under normal driving conditions, and 5,000 miles or four months under severe operating conditions. The 5,000-mile, or severe schedule, should be adhered to if a customer drives on unpaved or dusty roads, tows a trailer or makes repeated trips of less than five miles in cold temperatures.

"Toyota understands that customers can sometimes be confused about how to properly maintain their vehicles," commented Daly. "We're confident that this program will remind customers of their responsibility as well as reassure those who have had regular oil changes that they have nothing to be concerned about."

Toyota and Lexus vehicles are known worldwide for quality, dependability and reliability as shown by independent research from various well-known organizations. In fact, in the 2001 J.D. Power and Associates Vehicle Dependability Study (VDI), which examines the durability of vehicles after four to five years of ownership, Toyota and Lexus had 14 vehicles rank in the top-three of their respective segments.

Toyota owners who feel they qualify for repairs or reimbursement under the Special Policy Adjustment can call 888-802-9436 for more information. Lexus owners can call 888-654-6421.

The Facts About Toyota's Special Policy Adjustment (SPA)-Engine Oil Maintenance

February 8, 2002

Of all the many claims made about engine oil sludge these days, this much is true: It's an industry-wide issue that's existed since the dawn of the internal combustion engine.

We're Toyota Motor Sales USA-the US distributor of Toyota and Lexus cars and trucks-and together with our 1375 dealers, we'd like to set the record straight about sludge and our Special Policy Adjustment (SPA) for Engine Oil Maintenance.

Whether it's called sludge or engine oil gel, it's nasty stuff and bad for engines. It happens when old, dirty oil becomes thick and no longer does what it was meant to do-lubricate the engine. It's certainly not unique to Toyota.

We recently made a decision to reimburse owners of certain 1997-2001 Toyota and Lexus vehicles for engine problems related to oil gelling, even though all of our evidence indicates the problem is caused by improper maintenance-not by a product flaw.

Why would a company do that?

We did so voluntarily because we care about our customers and believe the experience of owning and driving our products should mirror the high quality of the vehicles themselves. And frankly, we take great pride in the reputation our dealers and we have earned as the industry benchmark for quality and reliability. We also hope this goodwill offer will heighten awareness of the importance of regular maintenance.

Our engine oil maintenance SPA is straightforward, providing assistance to owners of the affected vehicles who encounter engine problems related to oil gelling as a result of failure to maintain their engines properly.

We work very closely with our dealers to ensure we hear the voice of our customers and are able to respond to what they tell us about our products and their ownership experience. We monitor internet forums along with our own websites to help us capture all relevant public opinion about our company and products and, when needed, to clarify any of our policies or actions that provoke inaccurate or erroneous claims.

We're eager to provide additional facts about our Engine Oil Maintenance Special Policy Adjustment and its provisions:

· This is a maintenance issue-We simply have not found one case in which a properly maintained Toyota or Lexus has experienced sludge build-up and the related mechanical problems associated with this condition. The vast majority of our customers follow our recommended maintenance schedules and avoid the risk.

· We are offering assistance under this special program to owners of 1997-2001 Camrys, Solaras, Siennas, Avalons, Celicas and Highlanders as well as 1997-2001 Lexus ES300s and RX300s and are contacting them with a letter.

· Toyota and Lexus owners enjoy one of the best power train warranties in the automotive industry, but damage caused by improper maintenance is excluded from that coverage.

· The Special Policy Assistance for owners of affected vehicles will reimburse them for repairs already completed for the effects of oil gelling. It goes one step further by protecting our customers who undergo engine problems related to oil gelling for up to a year following our letter. We're asking all of our custom

imariquinn · February 2002

or is there any reason why Toyota stopped at 2001? Is 1000 miles to early to start synthetic oil on my 2002 RX300? I have my first service at 1000 and read somewhere here on Edmunds to get oil changed at 1000 and then every 3000 after that but there was a debate about WHEN to start synthetic. Thanks for clarification.

Christine

armtdm · February 2002

In a Lubricants World interview, the president of Jiffy Lube International takes on the issue of
extended drain intervals. Mark Graham is president of Jiff Lube International, the foremost fast
lube chain owned by Pennzoil-Quaker State (PQS), the number one engine oil marketer. He has also recently become chairman of the board for he Automotive Aftermarket Industry Association (AAIA), the premier representative for the automotive aftermarket. In a September 2001 Lubricants World interview, Graham took on the issue of extended drain intervals, revealing
exactly why he opposes them. When asked what issues the AAIA is currently dealing with,
Graham replied, There is a significant issue out there that affects anybody that utilizes
lubricants, and that is extended drains. The fact that consumers to day have been creating a
larger spread in between their oil changes has had a significant effect on anybody in the oil
change business. Everything that we can do to bring the oil change interval back into a logistical time-frame, the better off we are. Graham goes on to explain that OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) have confused the issue by telling people that 6,000 to 7.500-mile intervals are fine as long as they are not severe service drivers. In his opinion, consumers are confused over what makes a severe service driver. At (PQS) we use a number internally that if we [shorten the drain interval] by 100 miles [for each car serviced], it would mean an additional $20 million in revenue for the company. Proclaims Graham. The revenue benefits are equally
significant for everybody else. Thats a lot of money. Jiffy Lube also estimates that if we
increased one car a day [per shop] in our system, thats $33 million in revenue. "Looking at all
this from another angle, if we could move our customers to get one more oil change per year,
its worth $294 million for the oil change alone, and $441 million in revenue, when you include the ancillary products and services customers typically buy along with the oil change. We need to educate consumers on reducing the extended drain, and then we [Jiffy Lube] certainly want to out-market our competitors, says Graham. But before we do that, we have to get into the heads of the consumers that a 5,000- or 6,000-, 7,000-mile oil change is not OK, and we need to tell them why. And we need to get them to understand that normal vs. severe really means.

dweezil · February 2002

you wouldn't change synthetic every three months regardless of mileage, no one suggested that.
The time factor IS important especially if the manual says: 3 months or 3000 miles "whichever comes first". That would certainly be a critical factor in trying to make a warranty claim.
The head of Jiffy Lube is correct in suggesting that people are confused about what constitutes "severe" duty and it's more than just driving on dusty roads or hauling a trailer.
To suggest that a sort of re-education campaign is necessary is self serving, yes, but it needs to be done. How many people outside all of us Edmund's junkies have even opened the owner's manual, much less committed any of it to memory or routine usage???

ruking1 · February 2002

#3220

It kind of makes you wonder why fast lube places have not, do not, and will not EVER sell oil analysis products! (LOL)

I would hope if i stood to lose 441M in yearly revenue...??? I will be quiet now....

shoot, change oil every 1500 miles!!!! (LOL)

mrrogers · February 2002

with synthetic oil installed. There is no reason that you can't use it at 1,000 miles in your 2002 RX300.

swschrad · February 2002

I haven't seen a can of API 990-XXX sludge on the shelf in years. ever, in fact. so if you are replacing oil with a rated product within the maintenance guidelines, where is the [non-permissible content removed] coming from, I ask?

or more precisely, from what planet did the creature who wrote the maintenance guidelines come from?

and even more precisely, which oils sludge up first and worst, so we can be sure to leave them for toyota owners?

karen_tn · February 2002

They dont change the oil then. Just do a test drive and inspection. First oil change is at 5000 miles.

8u6hfd · February 2002

Sorry for being a little lengthy (those guys on the Car & Driver forum complained a bit).

This could might as well be grouped in the engine sludge forum (moderators....if you need to....)

The quick moral of the story.....Toyota is willing to go out on a limb for their customers.

But the general rule of 3000 oil changes still applies in full force (a little extra insurance)

mbbenz · February 2002

that I change Mobil 1 every 7000 miles. Does not burn a drop of oil. I am not worrying that the sludge will happen to me. But from reading everything the past few days I can say that this sludge issue is a Toyota problem since if you look at it the ES300 came out with a redesigned V6 that started for model year 97 and ended in 2001. Then the 2002 ES300 has a redesigned engne. Didn't gain any horsepower but the car was basically redesigned inside out. So for Toyota to say 97-01 ES300 indicates that there is probably a design flaw with that V6. I am sure that many of these sludged engines are probably from lack of maintanane while the rest are probably from a defective engine to begin with. Just my 2 cents.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2002

Thanks for the post. Yes, let's "freeze" this discussion and leave it up for awhile for reference and send everyone back to the ever-popular SLUDGE discussion.

thanks again,

Mr. Shiftright
Host

8u6hfd · February 2002

catgem · February 2002

I will KNOW he was a Toyota plant. I read in the LA Times article that Toyota has spent over a million bucks just on the postage to send these letters out. Add to that the staffing of the special office to set up to handle this. And that is only the beginning...imagine the reimbursements. If only they had not dodged this. Why do so many businesses seem to have "death wishes"? Take KMart,which did great with the blue light specials,and catering to the little guy. Then they tried to get all fancy,with the Martha Stewart stuff,which fit in like cashmere in a cow barn. Now look at them!! Then there is the Gap,did great with pretty,cheerful stuff at decent prices. Then they started carrying UGLY,dark clothes,suited for morticians. They are also in financial trouble. Toyota is way bigger,but it does make me wonder if there are not some KAMIKAZE MBA's out there???

acelink · February 2002

Has anyone used this product (never heard Malco before)? Its instruction say put the additive in before the oil change and let the engine idle for 3 to 5 minutes. According to Malco, this will clean and loosen sludge build-up inside the engine. Then drain the oil and put the new oil in. Before I buy this thing, I want to make sure this product does what it promises to do.

armtdm · February 2002

Look at www.auto-rx.com

A cleaning agent as well that has gotten good reviews on other boards

Someone noted and I guess that I agree that with all flush systems (engine or tranny) and cleaning agents that the tranny pan and filter and oil pan must be dropped and cleaned after using these systems/products due to sludge/gunk being dislodged and eventually plugging up the intake tubes or filters.

After a tranny flush I would insist on dropping the pan and replacing the filter. Few places will even consider doing that though.

flaca · February 2002

Was I right? Now you are hiding in the skies - Can't believe Toyota/Lexus could mess up, huh?
Well, this is really sweet - We, sludged up people, DID have a problem in our beloved Toyota's. Dozens of you accused us of not changing our oils (we did.) So it is nice that Toyota has done something about it - but they lost me as a customer - how many more did they lose?

cholowicki · February 2002

Awhile back you asked for the "perfect victim," someone with all oil change receipts done by the Toyota dealer. I don't think someone in that situation would ever go to the internet looking for assistance/information on sludge, because their dealer would have to have done the work under warranty or at their own cost. I know I would never have come to the internet to research the problem if my car had been repaired under warranty. How about you, Catgem?? Only Toyota could tell you how many of these engines were repaired under warranty, not as a "good will" gesture or result of arbitration/legal action.

Someone else made the comment that we (the sludge victims) should just be happy that we got what we wanted and find something else to be incensed about. How do you figure?? I wanted a dependable, worry free car that with proper maintenance would provide me reliable, safe transportation for a set cost for 36 months. I got what I wanted for only 26 months. The last 7 months have been anything but "worry free." So now Toyota is willing to reimburse owners for the repair costs, or repair the car if it isn't repaired yet. This may help some people, but it doesn't help me or anyone who went through this problem and already sold the vehicle. What about those customers? I did not have the money to repair my vehicle, so I was forced into litigation by Toyota. This SPA doesn't help me at all. I wonder how many of the 3,400 "complainers" will actually be able to collect their reimbursement?

jeffmust2 · February 2002

OK, so Toyota fesses-up and offers to kick in some bucks to current owners with "gel" problems for a year - what happens after that and what happens now to their used market values?

If I was in the market for a used Camry, Sienna, RX, or any of the other Toy products with the suspect engines, I would require proof of Gel Lack before I purchased same. On a private sale, what seller is going to lift the top of the engine and take dated photos?

On a Toy used car lot I can hear it now: "Hey, hey, Gel on THIS baby?! You gotta be kidding. We've serviced this kid for years now and we have the Jiffy Lube receipts to prove it, all made out to "Joe." Sure.

mrdetailer · February 2002

I had an interesting experience recently. I was able to obtain some information from my local Valvoline oil change store. (Synpower is a PAO base.) so I went to them for an oil change on my Mazda. The Mechanic recommends using only Valvoline on these cars. I just noticed yesterday that they put down 5,000 miles for the interval, not 3,000. Since this is the recommended interval for the car I'll give it a try this time.

If I had a Toyota, it would be every 3750 regardless, under the recent discoveries.

mrdetailer · February 2002

This issue would have gone on for many more years had it not been for discussion boards on the Internet.

Now at least those who tried to maintain their vehicles reasonably, and got sludge will not be called liars.

hlron · February 2002

My Toyota dealer, where I get all my oil changes done and at a cost cheaper than Jiffy Lube, uses Valvoline. Regular dino motor oil. 10/30 in our case around here, with our moderate weather. They also recommend 5,000 miles, however I am going to go for 3,000 from now on with my V-6 Highlander.

By the way, I have had excellent service from my Toyota dealer here on the Central Coast of California (San Luis Obispo, CA). I purchased my Highlander from them, have used their parts department (accessory purchase), and have it serviced there. So far (12,000 miles) so good! No complaints.

On another note, an early posting touched on the brand of oil used by Jiffy Lube....at least as of a year or so ago, the Jiffy Lube's around here used Castrol as a primary brand..not sure if they still do, though (the Jiffy Lubes in this area are all operated by a single franchise owner). Anyway, perhaps the franchised Jiffy Lubes use other brands of oil, if they choose? Academic for some of us, now, though! /Ron

canc · February 2002

My dealership has the option of removing the oil by "vacuum". Would this remove any kind of buildup or sludge in the oil pan?

In any case, I'm very glad that Toyota decided to repair people's problem engines, even if these only represent 0.1% of Camrys and Siennas sold. Toyota went out on a limb for such a small percentage of their customers, and I'm not sure if every car company would do that. I think it's because they pride themselves on their reputation for durability and reliability, and saw that this, in the long run, would damage their reputation. A smart move.

Since I live in Canada, I follow the "severe" maintenance schedule and have oil changes done at the dealer.

cliffy1 · February 2002

What an interesting discussion here today. Somebody used the word "vindicated" when discussing this issue but I don't see it. Toyota has made it clear that this is NOT a warranty issue but rather a good will gesture. They, still maintain that the gel is a result of improper maintenance.

On this issue of maintenance, let me make a few observations.

1. It is time or miles, whichever comes first. If you only drive 5000 miles per year, you need a minimum of 2 oil changes per year and three per year if your driving is stop and go. The manual is clear on this fact.

2. Call me old school, but I do oil changes every 3K miles and I lease my truck. Regardless of what the book says, I believe cars run better and longer with fresh oil.

3. I spent some time in our service lane today, talking to the manager. He told me some very interesting things. It seems we have seen a number of these vans come in with sludged engines. The customers always claim to have done oil changes, yet the OEM filter is still on it. You see, factory oil filters have an identifying mark to indicate they were factory installed. These customers were claiming oil changes but still had the original filter on. Some even produced receipts "proving" oil changes had been done. This actually got funny because the receipts had different dates, but the numbers on the top were sequential and all written with the same pen.

4. Stop complaining. All you squeaky wheels got your dose of grease.

armtdm · February 2002

No doubt many owners tried to falsify claims to get coverage which accounts for the sequential numbers, and obviously stupid receipts

Fact is though, as the News Article notes, there have been 3000 complaints of sludge.

Sounds like the Enron execs CYA to me so let's jsut Say Toyota covered up and they have a problem. Now they need a fix in lieu of 3,750 mile oil changes.

crbf1 · February 2002

Well, here's my $.02! Got a 99MY Solara w/V6. 36K miles. Changed it @ 1K to Mobil 1, and then every 5K since. Switched to Exxon Synthetic [lower $$$]. Both 5W/30. Car doesn't do any short trips [<5 miles], is a manual trans so it does get run through the rpm's. While I'm not the primary driver, I know my wife can wring it out just fine.
No abnormal noises; uses <1qt per 5K; no "sludge" or coolant loss evident. I guess we may just be lucky, but I think it's a darn good car.
I have a neighbor who's a bit A-personality who only uses synthetic oil in his cars [Mazdas w/over 150K each] and has had NO oil related problems.
Like I said, just my $.02.

jl30 · February 2002

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/2002/february/20020211_dai_toyota.xml

canc · February 2002

"Fact is though, as the News Article notes, there have been 3000 complaints of sludge."

Yes, but what are 3000 complaints if they sold 3.3 million engines? GM has far worst complaints over their engines and cars, and the world doesn't go topsy-turvy over it. Why, all of a sudden, when Toyota as a good will gesture, agrees to fix 0.1% of their engines gone bad, that people here cry murder?

brucer2 · February 2002

This would be a very big deal. Lots of time, money and agravation. They bought their Toyota/Lexus, in part, because of the reputation of building highly reliable, durable vehicles. Then the darn thing pukes up, and Toyota tells them they're guilty. The offical Toyota line is that the owners are guilty, but out of "goodwill" will fix things up. BS, they're just avoiding lawsuits that would also include damages, out of pocket expenses, etc., that would cost a lot more. Of course there are people on the board here like Cliffy, whose income depends on selling Toyotas, saying, "Bad engines due to bad people. Good people have good engines. You sinners should all be grateful for the kind, forgiving, Toyota Co. for making everything right."

armtdm · February 2002

Becuase these IMHO should have been covered under warranty without even a question as the manual says 5,000 severe or 7,500 normal and NOT 3,750.

Good will gesture, come on, a good will gesture would have covered these from the beginning!

It was profits all along now it is SPIN CITY and CYA! But, if you wish to call it Goodwill that is fine. However, this little goodwill gesture and lack of it over the years will and has cost them many customers!

canc · February 2002

I'm not even for a minute discrediting how sorry I feel for these people that were inconvenienced by their car. I love my Toyota, and if it did break down like this, I would surely be upset.

But, in retrospective, the fuss we make here is for (I know I'm repeating myself here) only 0.1% of the engines sold. But, has anyone here died because of bad engine design? No. Funny how Toyota tries to go out on a limb for 0.1% of their customers, as they know this will be bad press, yet DaimlerChrysler is refusing to recall their minivans because of a faulty engine design (ie. a pvc hose that runs over the engine, and if it cracks, gas gets directly on the engine and the van blows up). Why haven't we heard more of this, yet we're ready to turn the world over because of engine sludge in 0.1% of Toyota's engines?

Every car manufacturer, even Rolls Royce, gets a lemon out once in a while (unfortunately). Toyota is no exception to this, although statistics and owner testimonials say that there's a lower chance of getting a lemon with a Toyota. Maybe people make a big fuss out of this because the industry might have found a minor flaw in the benchmark standard for quality and reliability.

Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

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