Pontiac GTO

fbrussee · January 2004

I remember there were plenty of 'kits' to defeat the skip shift programming, but any good Vette mechanic can clip one wire and it's done is my understanding. Gotta find someone outside a GM dealership as they can lose their certification for doing this on a car still under warranty. Anyway, that's what I plan to do if I EVER GET MY CAR!!!!! Anybody on the message board know of a silver/red six speed on a dealer lot unsold? Finders' fee paid if it leads to purchase. No trade, will pay MSRP. THanks.

obiwan · January 2004

With the skip shift, you can clip a wire but you get the SES light. The proper way is to put a 2.2K ohm resistor in the end of the plug that goes into the tranny. That way, the computer thinks it's still plugged in. Several companies make a harness that plugs between the tranny and the wire that goes into the tranny. It's $20 or $30 but it eliminates the skip shift while letting the computer think it's hooked up.

As far as pictures, they're on a picture hosting site. Can I post links directly to the pictures?

czkf1 · January 2004

Also, do the headlights stay on during the day, when driving? I have rented some GM cars that do that, it's very annoying.

Is there a real spare tire or one of those space saver tires in the trunk?

I am just trying to access, whether, I should run down to the Pontiac dealer.

Don

Mr_Shiftright · January 2004

Yes you can link to a picture hosting site as long as there are no forums and as long as the photos are not access limited for copyright reasons...and of course if the pictures are tasteful and not meat locker material.

blh7068 · January 2004

What specifically do you mean by "no interior accessable door locks"?

Just a guess but at only 7 cu ft of trunk space, I'd have to believe its a space saver spare.

Daytime running lamps are standard on most if not all GM vehicles- GTO no exception.

Curious- When your driving the car you cant tell the DRL's are on. So, how is that annoying?

czkf1 · January 2004

The reason I asked about the space saver tire, is I heard of one new car, that had no spare.

The Four-Speed Automatic Transmission GTO has PN 12497318 4L60E, which, according the GM Goodwrench can only handle no more than 370 lb-ft of gross engine torque. This means more transmission upgrades, than normal for a supercharger on the auto GTO.

GM Goodwrench lists the PN 24221888 4L65-E Automatic Transmission for the power of the LS6-405 HP Corvette engines (induction hardened turbine input shafts, larger intermediate servo, an additional three-four clutch plate). I wonder how much this transmission costs or whether there will be a GM upgrade kit?

Don

czkf1 · January 2004

I saw post on the new GTO, somewhere, that there were no interior switches for the door locks, very odd.

Don

montanafan · January 2004

In the GTO brochure, there is a power lock switch and manual door lock buttons visable on the door.

The big Pontiac dealer in New England is Paul Masse in Rhode Island. http://www.paulmasse.com shows a Silver/Red/Manual in their inventory. He uses a pricing program, so it shows MSRP and dealer invoice cost, so not sure if they are above MSRP. They show 4 cars.

casoncase · January 2004

What the hell is "skip shift", and why?

snakerbill · January 2004

Finding a deck lid the right color with the correct key lock and getting it installed corectly costs a lot more than l4 dollars for the lights. Also, when you go to sell the car you simply remove the lights and put the silly wing back on. It seems to me that it is the easiest and cheapest way to deal with the problem.

obiwan · January 2004

The server gets overloaded sometimes so the pictures might not come up. Check back later and they come back up.

Here's a few of it coming off the car carrier

http://e.1asphost.com/colt1911/DSC00377.JPG

http://e.1asphost.com/colt1911/DSC00378.JPG

http://e.1asphost.com/colt1911/DSC00379.JPG

Of course, it had a dead battery...

http://e.1asphost.com/colt1911/DSC00380.JPG

Here's some detail shots:

http://e.1asphost.com/colt1911/DSC00381.JPG

http://e.1asphost.com/colt1911/DSC00385.JPG

http://e.1asphost.com/colt1911/DSC00385.JPG

andys120 · January 2004

that blocks out third gear during upshifts at low rpms. Apparently this increases gas mileage during EPA test cycles.

Naturally the logic of the test differs from real world driving where the 3-4 shift can be made simply by keeping the throttle down and revs up which will (you guessed it) burn more fuel.

Now you know where the phrase "close enough for government work" comes from. :^)

hudrahead · January 2004

A NEW GTO went on the block @ the B-J auction last night. It did not stir up much excitment and only went for about 3k over MSRP. This was a brand new vehicle that a dealer probably thought he'd make a killing on. The car had a ADM ( sucker sticker ) of 6K still on the window. Brock Yeats doing the commentary did not have a MUCH good to say about the GTO except it has a great power train but misses the "spirit" of the REAL GTO's of the past! By the time the seller paid the auction commission and associated costs of getting the thing to the auction (Arizona)they probably netted below MSRP. A local dealer (Florida) has several in stock and will take MSRP for them. Could the GTO be shaping up to be another T_bird and Crossfire fiasco ? It'll be interesting to see how they hold up in price in a year or two.

Kinda funny, Yeats said he doubted that anyone would ever write a song about the current ones ala the Beach Boys LOL !

HUD

:(

tripowergto · January 2004

The skip shift function does NOT lock out third on an upshift. It locks out 2nd forcing you to shift from 1st to 4th when you're expecting to shift into 2nd. Luckily the LS1 has ample torque to allow the 1st-4th shift to pull OK. The function only applies itself when you are launching conservatively and intend to shift into 2nd around 1200-1500 RPMs. Otherwise wind out 1st just a little more then needed and you'd never know the skipt shift existed.

It rarely applies itself in my 02 Formula yet I still can achieve 29 MPG on the highway. Incredible economy for a large V-8 with 3.42 posi gearing.

Can't wait to test drive a new GTO!!

obiwan · January 2004

By the way, the song "Little GTO" was by Ronnie and the Daytonas. They sound a lot like the Beach Boys but there were several bands like that in the 60's.

After driving the car, I can say that it is inspring to drive. Brock, like most old farts, is just stuck in the 60's.

rjs200240 · January 2004

The buyer pays the auction fee. So if they bid $3k over sticker, they will actually pay a lot more than that. I'm not sure what that has to do with the desirability of the car, though. Why would anyone bid up on a new car that they could just go to a dealer and get? Barrett Jackson might get exciting at times, but the bidders aren't idiots. I doubt any exciting new car that was already in showrooms would get a bid much over what you could just go and buy it for down the street.

fbrussee · January 2004

Well, with a 69 Z28 going for over $100k, anything is possible at an auction, and the B-J guys are good. I don't care if it WAS a cross ram, 4 wheel disc car, that has to be a record for a 69 F-body. And lots of 55-58 Chevies going for $100k as well. If only we knew then what we know now.....

avs007 · January 2004

I had my hopes set for buying a GTO. My Mustang Cobra friend convinced me that I didn't need to place an early order, because his Cobra was more limited, and widely available at the local dealership.

So now, it appears that the local dealers here, are only allocated 1 or 2 GTO's, and they are all sold already. Can't even go on a test drive until mid year?

I don't mind the price, I thought it was fine. Now, I know people already ranted about the lack of a moon-roof, etc. However, I currently have a 98 GTP coupe, which has a moon-roof, dual zone climate control, etc. I looked at a new GTP Comp G, which also has stability control, and side airbags.

That was really the deal breaker for me. I didn't understand how a car that is a step up from the GTP could have less content. Granted, th LS1 is probably worth it

However, I ended up buying a loaded G35 Coupe. With the gas guzzler tax on the auto GTO, and the ADP that local dealers are talking about, it ended up being relativeley close in price. I know it won't quite perform like the GTO, but its still a major upgrade from my GTP.

It sucks to be torn between two cars you love so much. Since I kept the GTP, I can always look at the front, and pretend its a GTO

(Hey ruski, what year is your TLS? I got the wife an 03, and was wondering if I have the same tranny issues...)

czkf1 · January 2004

http://gmbuypower.com/

The website is a little kludgy, once the first set of dealers with your zip code come up, then clear the zip code, enter a city and state, this will allow a larger search area.

There are quite a few cars available, just need to drive a few miles.

Don

czkf1 · January 2004

The lock mechanism can be swapped to the new deck lid, very easily. The new decklid can be painted by a body shop and color matched to the old decklid.

ruski · January 2004

my TLS is 2002. Tell her to hold the steering wheel with both hands at all times. Honda thinks (again) that they have fixed the problem, but who knows.

rcc442 · January 2004

Anyone able to buy for less than MSRP yet?

I read elsewhere than one was sold for $500 under MSRP... anyone else able to do this yet?

rcc442 · January 2004

Anyone else heard these rumors?

Salesman at my local dealership said he heard they may increase the hp for the 2005 to 405hp... only way this would happen is if they switch to the same LS2 that the 2005 'Vette will get. (Personally I doubt this will happen... I'm sure the LS2 will be "reserved" for the 'Vette for the first couple of years.)

He also mentioned the possibility of a convertible for 2006??? That's the first I've ever heard THAT! Anyone else heard this?? (Where would the top retract to? That space (in the trunk) is already taken by the gas tank!

andys120 · January 2004

but I don't think in '06. Probably when the total redesign arrives ca. '07. A ragtop is needed to compete with the new Mustang IMO.

snakerbill · January 2004

Why bother with this thing?

czkf1 · January 2004

Getting into the car is difficult, I am 73" tall, one needs to duck the edge of the roof, not to bang their head. I can feel my hair, just touching the headliner, when seated in the lowest position. The Holden designers must be short.

The seats, both front and back are very comfortable. Getting into the back seat is an experience, one must wait for the seat motor, to slowly move the seat forward. The trick is to get in feet last, get out feet first.

The steering wheel tilt/telescopic is like an Audi. The interior shape is very similar to a late model mustang, but nicer. The parking brake has what looks like a Firebird/70s handle.

Visibility, inside appears to be good.

The control on the door, where window controls or door locks normally go, is only for controlling the side mirrors. The window controls are in the center console. The door locks are activated by the remote, putting the car in gear or if the doors are shut and one pulls up on the physical lock, a switch activates the solenoids for both doors. There are no other access controls to the door locks.

The trunk release is inside the tiny glove box, must be just for gloves. The gas release, I think, was on the dash or center console. The truck is even smaller than I imagined. The spoiler is attached to the rear deck lid, with four T-bolts, about 1/4inch diameter. I forgot to check the spare.

The engine compartment is just big enough to work on the motor, better than a firebird or camaro, but not as good as a mustang. Those funky GTO covers, over the valve covers, appear to be covers for the ignition coils & injectors.

It does have a real mechanical throttle cable connection, instead of the mickey mouse electronic "drive by wire" system, that so many new cars have, these days, where the driver is isolated from the engine, by a computer, with slow & delayed response.

All in all, it's pretty nice, but why is it so long on the outside, with so little space on the inside???

Also the dealer had a stupid DAP sticker with $9900 markup over MSRP, how ridiculous, no reasonable person will pay over MSRP. The dealer says they will get 5 cars total,

Don

czkf1 · January 2004

The 2004 GTO auto & E55 has about the same outside dimensions, same weight, same Horsepower and similar performance.

2004 GTO auto
Pro - new, cheap to maintain and modify, has warranty. Not flashy, inconspicuous

2004 GTO auto
Con - very small trunk, only two doors, harder to get into. bad freeway gas mileage, only four speed automatic

1999 E55
Pro - has four doors, over twice the trunk size, easier to get into. has five speed automatic, ok freeway mileage.

1999 E55
Con - expensive to maintain and modify, flashy, pretentious, used, no warranty

andys120 · January 2004

orwoody · January 2004

Still waiting to see a new GTO in PDX. Nothing showing in inventories here, dealer I'm most familiar with keeps seeing his delivery dates push week by week. Did find 2 (Black & Purple) in the Seattle area. PDX Auto Show in less than 2 weeks so I hope they can get one in or the shows going to be a bust.
Latest issue of AMI Auto World has article on the GTO. Did a side bar comparo to the Mustang - 2004 SVT Cobra to be up to equivalent performance.
The Mustang is supercharged and (est) to be 0.3sec faster to 60mph than the GTO... but it runs $2500 MORE than the GTO. I expect the new Stang will likely cost as much, once Ford offers the SVT Cobra in the new skin.

ezrapon · January 2004

dictates that prices will drop after the initial excitement dies down AND there will be a new hook the next year. The prices will drop. The hook will be the 400 HP 6.0 vette engine. With the demise of the vette 5.7 (and no other GM applications for this engine) GM will not continue the 5.7 line just for the GTO. The wisdom: next year a much faster car probably cheaper and maybe HUD,sun roof, or a real automatic (5-speed). I'll wait it out.

czkf1 · January 2004

Sometimes one must consider the trade offs and whether an apple is a better choice than an orange.

Same cost, same power, same size.

ezrapon · January 2004

dictates that prices will drop after the initial excitement dies down AND there will be a new hook the next year. The prices will drop. The hook will be the 400 HP 6.0 vette engine. With the demise of the vette 5.7 (and no other GM applications for this engine) GM will not continue the 5.7 line just for the GTO. The wisdom: next year a much faster car probably cheaper and maybe HUD,sun roof, or a real automatic (5-speed). I'll wait it out.

graphicguy · January 2004

While it's up to each individual whether to wait to see if upgrades are coming, my experience has been just the opposite of your thoughts regarding GM.

They've put significant time and money to get the GTO out the door. Changine something as small as adding HUD would cause GM to redesign the dash and replace the windshield.

The Corvette is GMs top line performance model. They go out of their way to keep that "pecking order" in line, so I doubt they'd drop the C6 engine in the GTO. Plus, the C5 engine has already been amortized by the General. No need to re-tool the current GTO for a different engine when they can use something that's essentially already paid for.

I do agree that as dealers get some stock, discounting will occur at some point. I wouldn't hold out for an upgrade and/or cheaper MSRP for next years model, however.

If anything, GM has been known to "decontent" future offerings to save cost of the vast majority of their offerings.

white6 · January 2004

If anything, GM has shown that they continue to improve a model, and then, when it is how it should have been from the start, they kill it. BTW, GTO currently shares same horsepower rating with Corvette (350hp); I doubt they would not simply build the LS2 for both vette and GTO next year. Probably 400 hp for both BUT still with the old 4-speed auto. New C6 Corvette is, according to all the mags, still running beefed-up version of the old 4L65E auto tranny. Someone at the Aussy factory claims to have seen an LS2 GTO "test car" come down the assembly line already, so it seems this will be the major change for the 2005 model.
I'm 6-3, but wouldn't know if I fit or not; local Pontiac dealer won't let anyone touch their GTO. I told them they might have a bit of a problem selling a car that nobody is allowed to touch...

qbrozen · January 2004

"someone at the at the Aussy factory claims to have seen an LS2 GTO "test car" come down the assembly line already"

why would a one-off test car be made on an assembly line? Doesn't make sense to me. i don't even see how it could be done. They stopped the line completely and said, "wait a minute, we gotta put a different engine in this one right here." Nah, sorry, i don't buy it.

By the way, I just saw a commercial for the GTO last night. I'm glad they are starting fairly early. Not quite as early as the new Vette, but not as late as something like the Volvo S60R or RX8 (not comparing the cars, just adverstising strategies).

fbrussee · January 2004

Someone closer to the Monaro could shed some light on what they get that we don't, what improvements were made in the years post-introduction, etc. Still looking for a sunroof at least, heated seats would be nice!

ezrapon · January 2004

the GM legacy would see a pattern. Every year they find a way to up the ante (hook) to attract new buyers. In a performance car this usually translates to HP or performance. This is a fact. Follow the vette, camaro, or trans am engine offerings over a few year span and it will be clear. HP gains draw in trades and new sales; human nature. There would be little if any modifications to the goat to accept the 6.0, basically the same engine family. For GM to keep a seperate line open for the low production 5.7 could be only logical to one who already has a 5.7 gto and would like it to remain cutting edge... it will not. HUD and other items might be impossible, but the 6.0 is a sure thing. The sales staff at the local dealership indicated this to be so. Not a wise sale ploy, but a fact none the less.

cougar67 · January 2004

Dealers in the St. Louis area are starting to get some in stock; one dealer claims in his ad to have 12! Another says they are arriving daily. Have not gone by either place to see if true, though. In any event, there must be some areas that are getting a lot more GTO's, at least for now.

ezrapon · January 2004

1.I have seen numerous GTO's in the st. louis showrooms. Moore Pontiac has 3 on the ground 5 in bound. Behlman Pontiac has them arriving daily according to their sign. Both are selling at sticker. 2. What could you be thinking that would make you believe a Mustang GT automatic would come close to a gto in performance. Maybe a Cobra, but never a GT. Mustang gt's and GTO's are not even close to apples or oranges.

graphicguy · January 2004

I remember a time when ABS brakes were standard on all GM vehicles. That's no longer the case. Same goes for pasenger side door locks.

I'd be surprised if there were any changes more than some different colors offered in subsequent model years....maybe a change to a Delco stereo as opposed to the more costly Blaupunkt ones.

benjordan2 · January 2004

Thats all great the LOA stands for Lack of Avalablity. A few things about the GTO compared to the GT Mustang. Gas tank in the trunk for better weight and performance. A stop watch built into the car. More REAR HEAD AND FOOT ROOM. Greater front and rear tread width. More horsepower,and torque. Fully independent suspension,available 6 speed close ratio manual transmission. longer wheel base...hmmm I think the GTO has a lot more than the mustang =)And not to mention a LS1 motor how much would you normally pay for that.

revdrluv · January 2004

Saw my first GTO on the freeway today. I have to say it does look much sharper in person.

Although, if I wasn't such a car nut I probably wouldn't even have noticed it. Also, the badging is so discreet that if I didn't already recognize the shape, I wouldn't have been able to figure it out either.

One has to wonder if this is supposed to be the reincarnation of the GTO, or an M5 competitor in coupe form!

obiwan · January 2004

The only pictures of the graph I have are on other forums so no joy linking to them.

But, the results were 305 HP and 328 lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels. Assuming 15% drivetrain loss in my 6 speed, that puts it right at 350 HP and 385 lb-ft. The air/fuel mixture got a little lean (about 11.9:1) in the top end so a few minor changes to the computer and I should gain several HP. The torque curve was fairly flat, hitting 300 at about 2250 RPM and holding it above that line until right at about 5252 where the HP and torque lines cross. The extra fuel in the top end will probably pull that part of the line up. The peak came in at just over 4000 RPM. HP peaked at just over 5500.

Kirstie_H · January 2004

ezrapon, I saw this car at the St. Louis auto show over the weekend - only problem was they wouldn't let you get even close to it!! I was up on a rotating platform, and was one of the few cars I couldn't even get a decent photo of. They seem very protective of this vehicle, maybe because of the limited stock.

czkf1 · January 2004

One of the good points about the new GTO is the stealth quality. One could remove the emblems and many people would not know what it was. Take the emblems off the 1999 E55 and change the wheels, no one would know it was high performance car. This is what they have in common.

The mustang GT auto is too flashy. and does not have IRS. The mach1 mustang auto has the DOHC motor, but gets a cast crank and redline limited to 5800rpm and is WAY too flashy, plus no IRS. One would need to find a regular hood for a Mach1.

The BIG drawbacks to the GTO are the excessive length, 189 inches, small trunk 7 cu ft, and only a four speed auto (gas guzzler). The inside is a snug fit, especially for a person 73 in tall.

Don

qbrozen · January 2004

Gas tank in the trunk?? How safe would that be if hit in the rear??

This is the location for the tank in MANY cars. That's how they come up with these "roomy interiors" that they can all brag about.

I have a feeling that is where it is in the Mustang, too, but can't find any info on that right now. It was there on my '66, that's for sure.

cougar67 · January 2004

While the current Mustang GT is no match for the GTO in 0-60, the 2005 is projected to have at least 300 hp, about what today's Mach I automatic has (which goes 0-60, per the mags, in about the same as the GTO). So, if this proves true (and the 300 horses are real, not Marauder-style), we may see parity in acceleration. Of course, the GTO will still have an advantage in interior room, while the GT will probably have more trunk room. Handling? Remains to be seen; a modern live-axle arrangement does not necessarily equal worse handling in all situations, although the IRS tends to have an advantage on rough roads, other things being equal.

Looks? Well, that is personal preference. I saw the 2005 Mustang at the St. Louis auto show. It looked better than the pictures I have seen, but still has a heavy, somewhat truckish look to the front. With all of the crowds around it, though, it was hard to really get a good look at it, as a whole.

ezrapon · January 2004

try to remember your 68 stang and a 68 gto. Big difference right. A pony car vs a intermediate 2 door sedan. Apples and oranges right? Well wake up, nothing has changed they are two completely differnt cars aimed at differnt customer bases. You might as well compare a vette to a BMW. Stick with your boy racer stang... but move it to another board that cares. The gas tank, by the way was moved to the trunk for safety reasons before being allowed for sale in the US. You might be surprised to find out where gas tanks are located....especially in Fords.

ronhextall · January 2004

I would love to get a new GTO but considering the price and no seating for 5 that will not happen. I like the performance of the GTO, I find the looks to be blaa (looks like a Grand Prix to me). Considering the new Grand Prix's are already being advertised with discounts upwards of $4000.00 I wonder how long the GTO will be able to hold its price. To the common person the GTO looks like a 2 door Grand Prix.

If Pontiac was hoping to move a lot of GTO's I think they will be discounting them heavy by late fall/early winter.

Kirstie_H · January 2004

cougar67, I found it that way with most of the upcoming or just released vehicles. They kept them roped off, and the crowd made it difficult to get a close-up look!

Pontiac GTO

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