Pontiac GTO

v8lincolnguy

Thank God we don't have or need a "people's car" in the US. When I hear politicians or special interest groups going on and on about "the will of the people" or "for the good of the people" I cringe. IMO, every car in the US is a people's car. Yeah, we can't all afford every car we may desire, but if you have the desire and work hard, there is a good chance you just might someday be able to buy one. Even if it is used. That simply is not the case in Europe. The GTO, Viper, Corvette, Mustang, and a whole host of other great cars(some even Euro) represent what is good in America IMO. I don't consider it elitism at all. Word to the wise, watch how direct you are in your posts as the folks at Edmunds like to censor them if they become political in nature or language. Still waiting to see a GTO in person.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, any off-topic post, regardless of subject, is usually deleted. We are a Car Place and that's what we do best. Politics, baseball, history of embroidery, interesting but not here please.

thank you

Shifty the Host

ezrapon

I finally saw my 1st GTO on the road today, however, this person had the front grills chromed. Looked real tacky... why would anyone do this? If your're reading this...please lose the chrome....you know who you are. Also, good to see the political rehtoric deleted. One would assume that those who try to argue politics on a car forum might not be able to hold their own on a political forum...amen.

fjm1

Spotted one on the road late last week. Black on black. Very stealthy. Other than an aggresive stance, big tires, and that exhaust note it's hard to recognize the GTO as a performance vehicle. I like that, especially here in N.J. with such a high Police concentration.

sbss4

I just sat in a new GTO at my local dealer, and I must say the interior is quite nice, but not up to the quality of my 2000s4. I also feel like I have more headroom in the Audi. The seats are very nice in the GTO. Wait 6-9 months and GM will be discounting them just like they are doing on the '04 Vettes.........

muffin_man

How much did you pay for your s4?

v8lincolnguy

I wouldn't expect the typical 3-4K GM style discount on the GTO. With only 18K a year being sent this way and with what the car offers at the current price point, I'd dare say supply and demand will be very close.

merc1

If GM improves the standard or available equipment/features on this car for 2005 and keeps the volume low there will be no need for any big discounts. I must say that the Cosmos Purple color combo is stunning, inside and out!!!

M

midwesttrader

sbss4 - I said the same thing a month ago. The current version of the GTO is overpriced and underfeatured. They're banking on all the motorheads overlooking that fact and blindly paying for the big powerplant and two more seats.

Does anyone have hard numbers yet on how many '04s have been made and more importantly how many sold?

b4z

556 sold as of january 31.
About 3700 on the ground as of about 3-4 weeks ago.

montanafan

Automotive News has it as 555 sales (79 Dec-476 Jan) and 1,600 dealer inventory as of February 1st.

nb2169

I wonder what the possibility is of GM bringing out a convertible version of the GTO?

v8lincolnguy

Despite lacking a few features, I don't think the GTO is overpriced. It's still alot of car(and ALOT of bang) for the price.

andys120

there won't be a convertible GTO until the next-gen redesign, due in '07. I doubt they plan any convertible based on the Monaro chassis.

I'd guess ragtop prices will open North of $40k.

:^(

midwesttrader

If I understand these numbers about 26% of the cars made have been sold. Not that great considering all the advanced order hoopla last summer.

As a mini free market survey I just checked eBay for GTO sales. The highest bid I saw was $33K. The majority of the bids fell between $25K and $29K. Very few if any cars were moving. Some fools are still paying thousands for "right to buy" options. A dealer in Ohio claims to have 41 cars available.

montanafan

You don't say which dealer has "41 Available" or what the dealer means by "available", but Youngstown Pontiac, which is the largest Pontiac dealer in Ohio has only 4 on their lot. Obviously the "41 available" is the dealers estimated allotment for the year.

fbrussee

I've talked to about 12 dealers in the last few months trying to find/buy my car since my order still doesn't have a build date. "Inventory" seems to be the sum of 1. what they have, 2, what they know they're getting (ie, accepted orders in the system) and 3, what they THINK they're getting, ie, what their zone rep says they'll get. Many dealers will NOT see their full allocation since any 'sold' orders come first, even if from another dealer. So the total of 18,000 per year is only true if they actually have SOLD orders for that many, including any units dealers want to BUY for inventory. ALL the dealers I've talked to are saying they're buying NO MORE for inventory, since all they want is one or two cars to show off to potential buyers. So it's highly unlikely they'll be a glut at the end of the year, but there will be a line of people who want one who didn't order one. Prices may actually INCREASE at model year end as a result. Simple supply, demand. Don't believe it? Ask your local dealer.

fbrussee

Picking mine up on Wednesday and driving back to Indiana from the East Coast. $500 under sticker, no ADM or funny business. Silver, red interior, 6 speed. Can't wait!!!! My 'right to buy' on my ordered car will be on Ebay as soon as I have a VIN and a build date. Just like PT Barnum said...

fbrussee

Anyone got a web link to the 2004 GTO accessories guide? I've searched everywhere, looking for anything Pontiac or anyone else is offering to make it look better, go faster, or otherwise individualize it. Love the SEMA Autocross version, but no dealer has any info on the body extensions, just happy to throw a Corvette cam and heads on it for $2500....wonder how much just the 'look' would cost? Besides, there's always those little things in the accessories book...my 70 GTO book offered a spotlight, reel out hood and trunk lights, other cool stuff. HELP! Thanks.

white6

Do lots of people actually buy a car they can't even test drive? Or will they just keep one in stock for demo purposes and order "sold" customers a car from allocation? No dealers I know of in the area are allowing test drives unless you actually pre-qualify to buy the car. Sorry, guys, this aint no Ferrari... it's a Pontiac for crying out loud!

v8lincolnguy

I've heard of Ford dealers doing that with the Mustang Cobra and SVT Focus. While these may be limited production cars, your right we are not talking about exotics here. And since GM is no longer doing the 24 hour test drive, a sales person would likely be in the car doing the test drive anyway. I for one will not buy a car without first test driving it.

hammen2

While ogling a GTO at my local Pontiac dealer, I was told that most dealers in the Milwaukee area aren't allowing test drives without a purchase agreement and at least $1k down. Of course it was 10 degrees and snowy when I talked to them - today it was 57 and sunny, so I think they'd be a little more open to a demonstrably serious buyer.

I'm not close enough to a purchase (probably a year to 18 months off) to be serious enough to want to test drive one (don't want to get the new car jones just yet). I won't be trading in my Aurora, and I'm eligible for GMS, so I'll do the deal/test drive with whoever will take GMS pricing and has/can get the car I will want (still waiting for the changes for '05 - not expecting too much other than hood scoops and possibly some interior options (heated seats, maybe XM), though I'm betting this car will see a $1k-$2k price increase due to the difference between the US and Aussie dollar)...

Trying to talk my import-loving sister (pediatrician) to consider a new GTO as her 1991 Legend is falling apart. She's never had a super sporty car, and her 18-year old son graduates in June, so it's time for the sports car... :-)

--Robert

montanafan

v8lincolnguy, GM 24 Hour Test Drive program, current phase, runs until March 15th. You will not find a GTO to borrow, as they were not eligible for the program.

casoncase

I owned my GTO the first time I drove it. There are times when one acts on faith. The reviews on the unit, the fact that it was made by Aussies and not Frenchmen or Germans -- oops, sorry, I forgot about no political commentary -- the history of the Monaro, the LS1 saga: well, if there was ever a mystery car in this price range that was worth a gamble, this GTO was it. The minute I saw it I knew I had made a good decision. The first time I cranked her up and listened to her, I really knew. (Why am I calling it "her"?)

Re warming up an engine -- and back to jets: in operating jet engines a major measure of a jet engine's usable life is measured (or so it was in my days with Pan Am) in "creeping units". Without getting technical, which I am not able to do anyway, in starting and warming any jet engine the object is to, as slowly and economically as possible, warm the engine at the lowest operating temperatures (i. e. idle). The goal is to allow the whole engine to reach operating temperatures as close to the hot section (burners) before pushing it. If you don't do this, creeping units, which are measureable, more rapidly diminish the life of the engine.

Likewise, my guess is, you'd want to warm the recip. in the GTO so the engine block is nearer the temperature of the hot section (combustion chambers) before making demands on the engine. A multiengine reciprocal engine puke -- I mean pilot -- would probably confirm this.

I have to admit that one of my goals in life is to own a unit with 400hp plus. Maybe I should have waited for the Judge. I'll think about it all summer and autumn while enjoying the hell out of my red GTO, which has (after 1000 miles) never been driven -- not once -- without some guy (why no women? -- a lot of stares, though) giving me thumps up or asking about the car. It really is the "people's car", judging from the reaction to it. Everyone has a story about the GTO.

Oxymoron (?): An obedient, politically correct GTO guy. Seems to me that the GTO may be a paradigm of what seperates America from the rest of the socialist world: in-your-face, technical, proud and loud. Sorry, again.

mustang_svt

I'm with you, Cason. Recip pukes are taught from Day 1 to keep the rpm's at 1000 or less until the oil temp is in the green - which happens alot quicker in air-cooled engines. Furthermore, high-flyers vigilantly guard against shock cooling when coming down by keeping the mp at 15 inches (usually) minimum. Quick temp changes are bad for pistons and blocks - not to mention the dryness of the internals at startup until the oil warms and really starts sloshing. I think the "start 'em and drive" philosophy is a carryover from the days when timing and mixture were preset at the factory (optimized for cruise) and extended idling caused carbon buildup and plug fouling. Today's cars are all fadec and the computer does a wonderful job of keeping mixture and timing optimized for whatever regime the engine is running in - including idle.

midwesttrader

Well, now that we have finished our aeronautics lesson for the day... does anyone else find it perverse that a company desperate to regain market share in the car segment is making it so difficult to get to know and purchase one of its newest flag bearers?

Price this car at $28-29K and let people drive the damn thing and watch them fly off the lots!

Mr_Shiftright

This is GM remember. They have to shoot themselves in the foot at least once every new launch.

I've been scanning all the car mags and the only consistent criticism I've read on the new GTO (aside from a few irrational rants that make no sense) is that there is disappointment in the styling. It is too ordinary for the auto press motorheads.

I'm going to reserve judgement on styling until I see it and sit in it and walk around it for a while.

ajvdh

Is suggested by manufacturers for two reasons:

1 - Lower pollution: Until the coolant starts approaching operating temperature and the O2 sensor is hot enough to begin functioning, the ECU keeps the engine running fairly rich. The sooner the temperature is up to normal range, the sooner the engine goes into "closed loop", which is much cleaner.

2 - Long term reliability: That cold start rich mixture is bad for the catalytic converters. Also, when the pistons and rings are cold, they let more a/f mixture blow by into the crankcase, diluting the oil. You also do load the plugs up, but not as badly as in the old carburator and coils days.

The key is to start driving immediatly, but take it easy. Light loads warm the engine up much faster than idling, without stressing it. Your engine is designed to be operated like this.

On the subject of the GTO, the other complaint I've seen from the magazines is the size of the trunk. Or lack thereof. I'm hoping that someone brings one to our spring driver's school. It'd be interesting to see how it does on a track.

andys120

besides temp change from driving off is not that quick and I think there's more even contraction of metals if they are brought to operating temps.

Not to mention the increased efficiency of oil
flow. Advances in metallurgy have slowed the deterioration caused by running cold engines at idle but we're still subject to the laws of thermodynamics.

"Your engine is designed to be operated like this" Amen, start it and drive it!

casoncase

Mustang, what's "fadec"?

You summed it up, as I see it: gradually warming up an engine, turbine or recip., increases the optimum operating temperature for all components and elements of that engine, which is, A UNIFORM OPERATING TEMPERATURE. How can you have an area of the LS1 block near the combustion chambers at X degrees hotter than away from that hot section and not know that severe tension/distortion must be at play between the hot and cold metal areas within the block?

This is not new rocket science stuff here. The great enemy of recip. engines -- friction -- is rendered less potent by uniformity of its operating components temperatures. That's why, unless some engine expert convinces me otherwise, I will warm my goat with tenderness.

Mustang, where do you post from? By the way, multiengine "puke" is a term of endearment and admiration, kind of like "jarhead" re Marines.

Cheers.

v8lincolnguy

I'll too wait until I actually see one to pass judgment, but from the pics I've seen I like it. The only thing I'd like to see is an exhaust outlet on each side of the rear and more aggressive wheel design, otherwise the car has a very nice, clean look to it. And that is something Pontiac has needed for a long time.

mustang_svt

Full Authority Digital Engine Control

One lever (throttle) does it all. The computer takes care of mixture and prop - I think there's one or two models out there that get it from the factory but most get it through an STC'd mod. Automobiles have had it for years.

Mustang - Cleveland, OH area ASEL student puke

OK, I promise no more off topic - GTO's are the next best thing to a Cobra

imonty

Are the advancements in metallurgy or are they in fact in lubricants and coolant distribution (and resultant heat transfer).
I must admit that as I used to work at an aircraft factory for a while, I have enjoyed the comments coming through, but I think it is advances in heat transfer via the oils and water jackets that have made the difference. I would like to hear how the alloys have changed in block and head manufacture before I would believe it the manufacture of the engine itself that has lead to changes in how the engineers think we should go about "heating our engines up". As I remember in most aircraft they go for a steady build up in revs to achieve the best trade off between heating up and wearing out.
But I still go by the creedo "put the pedal to the metal" as you have already paid out the major dollars in buying the GTO in the first place! It is the second owners worry about how worn out the mechanicals are.

fbrussee

Who's making ram air hoods and body kits for these? I can't seem to find them on any wbsites, yet I've alredy seen them on pics of 2004 GTO's on the internet! Can anyone help??? Thanks. Fred

fbrussee

Got mine yesterday in Providence, drove 19 hours straight back to IN last night. LOVE IT!!!! Followed break-in recs and checked oil at every stop. Averaged 24 mpg and 64 mph over 1045 miles. Other than the rain and the darn trucks on I-80, a delightful trip. Finder's fee in Montanafan's name to St. Jude's Children's Cancer center in Memphis. Fabulous car. Dislikes? Gee, if it only had those fake scoops and a tripower like my old one....c'mon guys, it's a totally modern car. Fast, comfy and a blast to drive. Great stereo with steering wheel controls. OK, it could use the Chief's profile as a hood ornament! Could use a bit more headroom and grab handles on pass side.

montanafan

Glad you had a great ride.

I hear the headroom in the car is ok, the hard put is getting in and out where you bump your head on the roof line.

Local dealer is about to recieve their first one. Hope all these years of getting service done there pays off with a test drive.

I went and sent out a donation to St. Jude's also. Double the good.

orwoody

my head getting in and out of a GTO. I've done it for years on the Grand Prixs I've owned and I'm only 5'7". Maybe next year

fbrussee

Do you want the donation in your own name or 'Montana fan'. Send me a private message at fbrussee@aol.com.

I LOVE this car!!!

fbrussee

I had a horrible experience trying to get a Rockblocker kit shipped to my dealer for installation prior to picking up my GTO. After about $30 bucks worth of cell phone calls, it never did get straightened out, in spite of explicit directions and oral confirmation. No need for details, wonder if anyone had used Stongard or X-Pel, and what their experiences have been. My survey of installers say all the products are basically the same, it's all in the installation. Anyone?

white6

I just received a kit from Invinca-Shield for my in-bound 325i. It's the 3M material, pre-cut to fit. I paid $100 for a front bumper kit (with headlight and grill surround pieces). Ordered online on Sunday, received on Thursday. Came with complete install kit, instructional video... quite impressive.

ezrapon

Went to the local dealer tonite to check stock. He had 4 in stock and 2 inbound. Had a purple one and 2 different shades of blue. Three of them had a pink dot on the rims. He claimed that only the 1st 250 produced had the pink dot. Any one hear this story? I'm going to see what they will give me for my Denali next week. If the numbers are close... there might be a red or black 6 speed in my future. Any one defeated the skip shift yet? The last GTO delivered today had a $250. cold air intake kit installed by the dealer... claimed about 12 HP.

robertkcal

My car came on the first Ship, back in early Decemeber (delivered 12-16). I saw the car before it was cleaned and there were no pink dots or any other marks.
Look on the drivers door panel, the first cars (about 400) built for production were assembled in September.

fbrussee

"I think you owe my staff an apology for being selfish, demanding and really a pain in the [non-permissible content removed]." A direct quote from one of the Rockblocker owners when I complained about their inability to get a kit delivered to the right address on time.

Customer Service in our new Millennium? I sure hope others don't treat their customers this way. All I wanted was their product shipped to the right person at the right address. Granted, this was short notice, but this is how some companies treat their 'almost' customers.

I'm a business owner too. I have had plenty of customers who ask a lot. We either say we can't deliver, or bust our butt to make it work. If we screw up, we admit it. If anyone in our company ever called a customer a 'pain in the [non-permissible content removed]', they'd be fired regardless of circumstances.

Caveat emptor, eh?

fbrussee

This is an easy mod for around $30 you can do yourself or have any Corvette performance shop do...takes about 15 minutes. Frankly, I was ready to do mine, but it's so easy to avoid just by driving a bit more aggressively, it hasn't bothered me in the real world. Just give it more juice when shifting, you'll never know it's there!

Mr_Shiftright

I always felt that the skip-shift could be thought of as a warning to tell you that you aren't driving the car properly!

exalteddragon1

Absolutley...
You know, you could advise ppl you know not to do business with Rockblocker. Sadly its the reason many ppl outsouce to india, the Customer Serive is better, even though they have an accent, the bastards know what they are doing...
I hope you get the parts for your GTO, even if its from a different company. Hood Scoops would be a + too.
This might not be the board for it, but what type of business do you do, if you don't mind my asking. Thanks.

fbrussee

Just email me privately if interested in either business. THis Board is to discuss the GTO!

Fbrussee@aol.com

ezrapon

Unless your bio info is old... why did you drive to providence when the local dealer in chesterfield, mo. (Moore Pontiac) has had at least 4 GTO's in stock for over a month? Behlmann has even a larger stock. Just curious. I have to guess you moved from the jewel of St. Louis. I'm kicking tires on a red one at Moore now.

montanafan

The online donation form I found and used didn't have a spot for a dedication of the donation. So it is your call, your name or "montanafan" or even "the Edmunds GTO board" works for me.

diablo4

Has anybody seen the pic of the 2005 GTO with scoops?I think it look great.