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Pontiac GTO



  • I agree that the GTO looks a bit too much like the Grand Prix, and even more like the Grand Am coupe:



    I think GM should hand the GTO styling over to the team that designed the Cadillac Cien and XLR. I bet they could take the "inspiration" from the classic GTO -- with that aggressive squared-off grille -- and craft an interpretation that looks thoroughly modern and attractive.


  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,492
    qbrozen...I do agree that the GTO isn't the "head turner" it could have been.

    Make no mistake, if it drives like all the media says it does (and nothing breaks in it, as C&D has reported), it is a car that I'd like.

    crispie...even the pictures don't show the similarities of the previous gen of the GP and the GTO. While at the Detroit auto show last year, I did mistake the GTO for the GP. And, in person, the similarities are even more pronounced than they are in the pictures.

    Speaking of the Detroit Auto Show, Ford had the '05 Mustang there on display last year. I would imagine they will do the same this year.

    Looks like a nice piece. The drive will be the ultimate judge.

    Shifty...I never thought about it, but you're right. When you go retro with styling, where do you go from there? IT kind of makes you wonder where Chrysler will go with the next gen PT Cruiser or VW with the next gen New Beetle.....
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Retro seems to be a dead end by definition, more of a gimmick than a vision. Some departments of GM (Cadillac) have gotten that message but some have not.

    Perhaps Pontiac must take more risks like Cadillac has just done. The XLR is certainly not reminding people of old Cadillacs, and that is probably a good idea.
  • GM shoulda brought in the first 18,000 as standard Monaros under the Pontiac badge and then presto, change o ,rebaged it as a GTO with some performance mods(450 sounds a bit much) to help with the terrible sales. I ,too, am impressed with the interior and powertrain, but would seriously question my sanity as soon as I turned off the key, slid out of the seat, and gazed at that bland sheet metal.
       From the first time I laid eyes on my new 1971 Nova SS to the properly restored ones on Ebay today, I dig its total presentation. Many of us older guys who owned Goats, SS Chevelles,and the like 30 years ago know what I mean... and it ain't because of misty eyed nostalgia, either.
  • revdrluvrevdrluv Posts: 417
    I guess this would be the real comparison. Now which mags said the muscle car war was over?

    GTO — 189.8
    SVT Cobra — 183.5

    GTO — 72.5
    SVT Cobra — 73.1

    GTO — 3725
    SVT Cobra — 3665

    GTO — 350
    SVT Cobra — 390

    GTO — 365 ft lbs
    SVT Cobra — 390 ft lbs

    GTO — 5.3
    SVT Cobra — 4.5

    GTO — 31k
    SVT Cobra — 34k

    I guess you buy the GTO if you want interior space, handling and under-the-radar styling. You buy the Cobra if you want attention grabbing styling, an edge on acceleration and don't care so much about steering feel.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    The GTO and Mustang are in 2 seperate categories and really not that comparable.

    The Mustang is a pony car and the GTO is a musclcar.

    Mustangs, Camaro/Firebird/ 'cudas and Challengers are in the pony car category.

    Musclecars are the midsizers.
    Chevelle, GTO, 442, GSX, roadrunner,etc.

    The midsizers have a weight disadvantage so direct comparisons are hardly fair.

    Compare the performance of the GTO to BMW 6, G35,
    and Mercedes CLK.

    I am not saying some people won't crosshop GTO and Cobra, just that they are not quite the same demographic.
  • white6white6 Posts: 588
    the same level of quality and room. GTO has usable back seats and an upscale interior. It also doesn't use a cobbled-up, after the fact designed rear suspension. Nor does it have to resort to add-on supercharging to make great torque and horsepower. If you're more interested in boy-racer profiling and drag racing, buy a Cobra; if you want a high-quality, understated, mid-size car with great power, handling and ride, buy a GTO.
  • revdrluvrevdrluv Posts: 417
    Well there is less than 100 lbs of weight difference between these cars so the pony-car vs midsize muscle car thing is moot.

    These cars are not in two seperate categories at all. Same peformance, both domestic marks, both RWD etc...

    GTO sits on a shortened Catera platform. The next Cobra will sit on a shortened Lincoln LS platform. Plus, the current Mustang is built on a mid size sedan platform from the 70's. Only the 60's mustangs might fit this crtiteria of Pony car.

    I think one thing the GTO does well is make the current Mustang look very crude.
  • ruskiruski Posts: 1,566
    GTO started its life as a Monaro in a far away country called Australia. I don't think that the Australians were shooting for a Grand Prix look when they were designing the Monaro.

    When they rebadged it as a GTO (with some design changes), I doubt that they really changed the hood lines and the pillars on purpose to make them look like a Grand Prix.

    I think it is just a coincidence that Monaro/GTO looks a little bit like a Grand Prix. I don't see any conspiracy here.

    And if it does look like a Grand Prix a little bit - great!!! Grand Prix is one of the better looking Pontiacs.
  • I don't think the similarity between the GTO and the Grand Am/Prix is a conspiracy -- I think it's a blunder.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,942
    if you like the looks, that's great. I certainly won't fault you for that.

    but ... coincidence? hardly. and its not a conspiracy. Its just called resource sharing or some other buzz term like that.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • The salesman said he thought the price of a manual shift GTO would be $37M to $38M, but "I'm not certain of what the price will be yet". Is it possible that GM has not established and forwarded a sticker price for a car that's weeks from marketing?

    I'm replacing a 2000 A6 Turbo, which is nice -- but the I want mean! 350 is mean.
  • ruskiruski Posts: 1,566
    so did the Holden designers borrow the styling cues from Pontiac Grand Prix back in 1997-ish when they were working on the Monaro?
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,492
    DOn't know for sure, but all the reports I've heard put the GTO in the $33K range. Sounds like your dealer's preparing for a bit of "price gouging".
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    Was announced a month ago.

    Check edmunds.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,942
    I'd have to think so if the Monaro was designed after the GP (i'm really not up on used Holdens, so I don't know what they looked like during certain years).

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • white6white6 Posts: 588
    Sounds like the typical clueless salesman... these people know less about the product they're selling than most customers... amazing. MSRP was announced at $32,495 (including freight); only option is 6-speed manual at $695. Auto tranny version is actually more expensive, though, due to $1,000 gas guzzler tax added to price. Manual tranny car gets MUCH better highway EPA numbers, allowing it to dodge this ridiculous tax.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Just read that Car & Driver article on the GTO. Pretty fair assessment it sounds like. They really didn't think much of the styling, however...I thought the comment about it looking like a "telephone company fleet car" was a bit cruel.

    Sounds like this Goat needs a tire and brake upgrade, too.
  • garnesgarnes Posts: 950
    I got the impression from reading it that a tire upgrade would be difficult because wheel well rubbing would be a problem. What are your thoughts? Hopefully some kind of tire upgrade is doable.

    With some cars, intake and exhaust modifications are a nice help and will surely be available for this one, but with this car I think the biggest performance increase may be just getting the monster low end torque that already exists to the pavement.

    Also, what are anybody's thoughts of this car's ability to be a year round driver in an area that gets some snow? Is traction control the savior of RWD? Are there great winter tire alternatives that you'd have to switch to (keep an extra set of wheels - ouch)????

    I have not seen one yet, but some photos seem to show that the car does have some great curves with the front and back fenders flared out quite a bit. You can also see it in the way the reflections really dip at the fenders. A lot of cars can look slab sided and boring in a photo, but I am hopeful that when I actually see one that it's got more curves than most pictures indicate. I'll admit the style seems a bit weak, but not that bad. I'm definitely not a fan of the hi-po style of something like the firebird, and equally not to thrilled with some of the radical import designs with front and tail lights contorted into all sorts of weird shapes - wandering up over the trunk lid, fenders or hood area with body styles that are at best bordering on a boy-racer look. Still I can see where this car's look leaves something to be desired but it's not that bad.

    One suggestion would be to not go through the trouble to re-work the front end to look like the rest of the line-up. The Monaro front was better, and they could have done an infinite number of things other than hit us over the head with the age-old Pontiac front end look.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 20,461
    (4)winter tires will be a must if you live somewhere you must drive in snow, even if it's just the length of a driveway. I run snows on my awd in winter because I might have to STOP in a hurry.

    Extra wheels are cheep if you get steel ones, at least yer good ones are out of the snow and slush.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • The Car and Driver article used one of the pilot cars that only had 225/50/17 tires. GM quickly realized it needed more rubber so the actual production GTO comes with 245/45ZR17 BF Goodrich KDWS tires which are supposedly a very good tire.

    They'll still be shredded by all that HP but traction and braking is greatly improved. The new GTO is alot of car for $33K, can't wait to testdrive one!!
  • "So what you are saying is that pontiac should have taken a FWD Monte Carlo(or GP for that matter) with a 3.8L V6 and called it a GTO?"

    They ALMOST did! GM asked a Pontiac enthusiast magazine what they thought of a Grand Am based GTO. They suggested a Grand Prix version, but with AWD. When they asked GTO fans at car shows they learned that it had to be RWD/V8. The Holden is the only RWD platform for now, and people have begged GM to bring it here, well voila!

    BTW: Look at a 72 GTO or 73 Grand Am (was supposed to be the GTO) and see how the 2004 looks like the next generation.

    "Ford is hardly doing it right. The Thunderbird has been canceled due to poor sales. "

    No, no, no. The T-Bird was planned from the get go to be a limited run. Look up stories from 1999, ti was meant to be only a 5 year run at the most. But the media spun it into a 'sad sack' tale of woe.
  • Or is it too early for that?
  • garnesgarnes Posts: 950
    you mean all that TORQUE - not HP. Low end torque shreds tires, not HP.

    HP (peak) is good for continued power through the top end and it generally impresses the automotive press and most of the buying public, but can be misleading as to how much power is delivered to the wheels throughout the entire acceleration.

    Sorry - just a peeve point of mine that gets me rambling.
  • "it generally impresses the automotive press and most of the buying public"

    You got that right.
  • ya got me there garnes... wasn't thinking straight cuz folks are reading that the new GTO's don't have enough tire and that's just not the case. I'm quite aware it's all about torque at low end to spin the hides. The original GTO's Pontiac engines(notice I didn't say "motor" LOL) were all torque and low redlines but high mileage and reliable. Can't wait for this car!!
  • rjs200240rjs200240 Posts: 1,277
    Torque at a given rpm, in the context of an internal combustion engine, implies a certain ability to do work. I bet that diesel could spin wheel pretty good if it's belching out 555-lb-ft when you drop the clutch on it. It's mainly that diesels don't make a lot of power because they have redlines in the 3000 rpm range. So 555 lb-ft is probably about 200 horsepower max in the range it is made.

    Also, torque is not force, it is torque, or force on a moment-arm. A huge amount of torque will always do work unless it isn't enough to overcome the resistant force. If the resistant force is high enough, then you can make that same exact argument about horsepower. You can have have a ton of horsepower and still not do any work.

    All else being equal, I'd rather have a car that makes strong torque and good horsepower (as strong torque across a range implies good horsepower) than one that makes strong horsepower and poor torque (as poor torque across a range only implies the possibility of strong power high in the rev range). If you have a solid torque curve, you will always make good power. If you don't have a solid torque curve, all you can hope for is to make power at very high rpms... ;)
  • obiwanobiwan Posts: 57
    My 2001 Dodge pickup with the 245 HP/505 lb-ft high output Cummins turbo diesel has no problems laying long strips of rubber on the pavement even with 3.55 gears and big 305/70R16 tires. It can even bark all 4 tires when I shift it into 4WD. But that 3300 RPM redline really keeps me from winning many stoplight races. However, I bought it to tow my Jeep to the trails and my future GTO to the track so I don't care how slow or fast it really is 'cause it launches the same pretty much no matter what's on the trailer.
  • ruskiruski Posts: 1,566
    a rotational force. But it is still raw force.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    I suddenly feel the need to
    get in that Cummins Turbo diesel and
    power brake it to see if the brake torque is greater. LOL.
    Anyway I bet I can get it to shred
    some tires.
This discussion has been closed.