Pontiac GTO

fbrussee

Couldn't get my color and trans at Moore, but i've got a 'right to own' going on that auction site shortly, as soon as I have a firm delivery date!

ezrapon

What color did you get, I live in Chesterfield, I'll keep an eye out for a guy with a big smile. Moore did say they installed cold air induction systems.... 12-15 claimed HP.

jsrdlr

Going to the Atlanta auto show tonight. Hopefully, they'll have one or two on display. This is the only 4 seater left on my list of potential cars so I hope it holds up.

qbrozen, you decide on a car yet?

Jason

bigdaddycoats

I wonder if sales are going as planned? They closest dealer has 2 in stock and have both been there for a couple of weeks. The other dealer in my area has 9 in stock - quite a good assortment of colors and transmissions. Hope they sell well. Even though there is a lot of competition I would think selling 18k per year would be no problem.

nissan350z

I saw 3 GTOs at my local dealer black, red, and yellow. None were marked up in price to my surprise. I even sat in one it was pretty comfortable too better compare to my Mustang 2001 GT and more back seat room too.

casoncase

What causes wheel hop? I've tried (once) to duplicate what was done on the GTO site that let's you listen to the GTO (shows the RPM and MPG) but had to throttle back because of wheel hop.

I've still not seen another only GTO in my area (Western CT) although I've seen two in showrooms (one sold in a week).

This car is more comfortable to drive than the Audi A6 I had previously and 100 times more fun.

I'm waiting for mods. How much more HP can the LS1 take, and does GM historicall authorize warrantied mods? Info: for $1,700 I extended the warranty to 6 years/60,000. If I keep the car for five years GM will give me back the $1,700. I had to ask for the GM warranty (they were pushing a non-GM warranty which cost about the same).

Mr_Shiftright

the rear suspension can't cope with the torque. the suspension, tires, etc are moving vertically during sudden application of power. The opposite of "squat", it is "lift".

Remedies vary from suspension link changes to recalibrating the ECU to cut power just for a flash until the axle settles down. Corvettes do this a lot I'm told but I have no idea what GTO people will do to help this.

muffin_man

How much more HP can the LS1 take? I think the limit is your pocketbook. What a fantastic engine.

crispiegee

This group has gotten really slow, so I will air something that has been on my mind:

It is reported that 2005 GTO will have hood scoops. Do you feel that this should be STANDARD or OPTIONAL equipment?

Personally, I like the clean look of the GTO as it is now, and if I purchase one, I plan to remove the rear wing and replace it with a small ducktail spoiler. I think the addition of hoods scoops will be a futile attempt to satisfy so-called "purists."

If they want a boy-racer look, let them pay for it in the options list. I doubt that these complainers are seriously in the market for a GTO anyway.

PONTIAC MARKETING: Please keep the GTO clean and European. We can then CHOOSE how much we want to modify our GTOs to look either sporty or tacky.

robertkcal

I agree! I like the way my GTO looks. I thought about the same thing and I'm glad it didn't have hood scoops.

I do think the car would look better with the exhaust pipes separated.

ezrapon

the only add on I'm waiting for is the 400 HP 6.0 and the bigger wheels and tires. Any stickers or decals will come of with a hair dryer. The scoops (unless functional) can stay in the option list. Again if the scoops/vents add cooling or power, it changes the ballgame. Oy yeah, split those pipes. The 1st goat without stereo pipes!!!

Mr_Shiftright

I've been doing a little more research on "wheel hop" and I guess the Cobra has this same problem.

Apparently the road-holding suspensions on these cars, that allow them to handle well at high road speeds, do not serve them well at tire-smokin' time. Easiest recommendation I've read so far to cure the problem is to switch to a radial made especially for the drags.

midwesttrader

How about some really cheesey looking traction bars to go with those fake hood scoops on that $33K goat?

v8lincolnguy

About the only thing I would like to see changed about the new Goat's appearance would be a more aggressive looking wheel design and exhaust pipes coming out both sides of the rear. Otherwise, I think the car looks fine and needs nothing else. You don't see all that crap on high performance BMW and MB models. I think part of what killed the old F-bodies appeal was all the "boy racer" gimmicks on them, especially on the Firebirds. There's nothing wrong with wanting a car to have a little attitude, heck that is what a sports car is suppsed to do. But there is also a point when it becomes overkill.

crispiegee

Well stated, V8Lincoln. Those boyracer gimmicks are what have prevented me from purchasing a GM in the past. I prefer "Euro-understated."

If I end up purchasing a 2005 GTO, I will make a couple of changes right away:

Remove the Rear Wing - I prefer a more subtle ducktail spoiler, which gives the car a longer, sleeker appearance.

Wheel Arch Moldings - rather typically of GM, the wheel openings look like they were cut with tin snips; they could use a subtle flare to them (like the BMW 330);

Better Looking Wheels - Not sure whether I'll switch to 18" or not, since I live in the potholed Northeast, but they will be BMW-like, thin 5-spokers; I may swap the Pontiac logo for Holden badges, just to keep people guessing!

If you want to see how good the Pontiac COULD have looked, check out HSV's Coupe 4, which is a seriously hot Monaro. It reminds me of an M3 on steroids. No hood scoops, no ribbed cladding -- just some nice trim work, a cool looking rear valence and a MUCH better front end than the GTO.

orwoody

sit in a GTO. For some reason they have been very slow to deliver to the NW. I've been to 3 local dealers that had finally received GTOs. Two of the three had them on the showroom all locked up. "holding for a buyer" was what I was told. Was out for service at the dealer I have dealt with a couple of times. A Torrid Red/Blk interior w/6 spd. on the floor open with keys inside. The red isn't as bad as I though it would be on this car.
- The more I get close to the GTO, the more I like it.
- I bumped my head getting in. It's worse than the GPs. I'm only 5'7" but head room is low.
- The seats are great. not as comfy as the Bonneville seats I had, but much more lateral support and form fitting. I like a lot!
- Getting in and out of the back for an adult will be a chore, but comfy once seated.
- Trunk is barely a trunk. If I were to take the wife and daughter for a trip, no more than a change of clothes or two will fit.
- Visibility isn't great, but since you' be in front of most everybody, who cares.
- I thought the seating positions and ergonomics weren't bad.
- A bit too much hard plastic for a $34k car I think.

I'm living conservative for a while, so I didn't try for a test drive. I know that this dealer would have let me, but I think if I drive it, I might keep thinking about buying. This car is definitely on my list, especially if they fix a few details.

kcc455

I drove a black 6-speed on Sat. and the sales manager offered to sell it for $31,118 before TTL. Supposedly this is the supplier discount price. Is this a good price?
Thank you.

midwesttrader

That price is about $400 over invoice. Unless you need a car right away I'd hold-out a little longer. This is GM remember. The rebates will be coming sooner than later.

I wonder how those "right to buy" auctions on eBay are going these days?

crispiegee

I'm a frugal buyer, and I think that $400 over invoice is pretty fair on any car in this price range.

Midwesttrader, I truly believe that you are deluding yourself if you think that GM will offer incentives on such a low production car. I may end up being wrong, but I highly doubt it.

Look at all the Mustang GTs that sit on lots, yet Ford will offer rebates on all their cars EXCEPT for the Mustang GT, because they know that the people who want it will pay for it. Similarly, GTO buyers do not have price as their main concern, so Pontiac will not feel compelled to chop anything off it.

(That said, I'd love to get a $1,000 rebate on one, but it's not going to happen.)

mustang_svt

I don't know if what's happening around here is representative of what's going on around the rest of the country but, in my neck of the woods these things aren't selling. They began arriving in the 3rd week of January - not only are most of those 1st arrivals still looking for owners, but new ones are arriving all the time and there is an absolute glut of GTO's available in northeast Ohio. 18,000 copies or not, right now it looks like serious discounting one way or another is the ticket to moving them out.

For me the car just isn't quite there yet. I've heard rumors of a 400 hp 6.0 litre in '05. That would do it for me. Many others will need the trunk space & split exhaust issues resolved, as well as an options list that includes a sunroof, XM radio, and OnStar. Nav wouldn't suck either

montanafan

It could be the distribution policy Pontiac used. As I understand it, the GTOs were delt out based on total Pontiac sales. This sent most of them to the center of the country and to the industrial areas in the north center. GM Employee and Supplier sales must help these dealer sales totals. They get the GTOs based on that but then want MSRP+, locking out the buyers that earned them the car in the first place. It probably will not be GM/Pontiac blinking first with rebates, but the dealers will have to adjust their sales price mix. In the Northeast, where the dealers are only getting a couple, they seam to be finding buyers at a reasonable rate and selling for MSRP at max. As pointed out, the real market knows the '05 could be better. I would think if anything Pontiac might hold off announcing '05 changes or even delaying production to make sure there is no '04 inventory problem in the heartland.

twobrowns

I know you don't buy a GTO for efficiency but was curious what real world gas mileage is especially the 6 speed. EPA is 17-29 (not bad)

bottgers

0-60? 1/4 mile? Top speed? I'm thinking the 6 speed should easily get in the 13's for 1/4 mile, and 0-60 in under 6.

bottgers

I think GM has set the pricing a bit high on the GTO. Mid 20's would've been a more relevent price. For low to mid 30's I think I'd have to go for something like an Acura TL. Not quite on the same peferomance level as the GTO, but beyond in terms of refinement.

montanafan

Why do you believe the GTO should be priced below the Grand Am? Or why should it be priced several thousand less then a V8 Firebird was several years ago? What some fun, go to the Holden site, see the Australian price, and take it to a currency convertor program.

revdrluv

Mid 20's would be ridiculously low. I would start to wonder what was wrong with the production of the car if it sold for that cheap!

v8lincolnguy

If your considering an Acura TL(or any FWD luxury car) than your probably not a target GTO customer. The Goat's mission is performance with some luxury and refinement as well. And from all the reviews I've read, it seems to fit the bill very well. Other than a few features missing, the GTO is equipped very well for it's price. And where else can you find a well balanced RWD coupe with V8 power, IRS, and a good dose of luxury and refinement for a low 30s price?

midwesttrader

GM is responsible for the pricing mess they're in. On 99% of their cars (including the Corvette) MSRP is totally meaningless. That creates certain customer expectations. No the GTO should not be less than a Grand Am, but the car market and the US economy have both changed an awful lot since the Firebird was sold.

The TMV on an Acura TL w/ 6-speed manual is about $600 less than the TMV for the GTO. Granted the TL is a front wheel drive sedan with 80 less hp. However the TL comes equipped with side air bags and curtains, traction control, a sunroof, Brembo brakes, satellite radio, and a higher resale value.

Pontiac's marketing folks refer to this car as a "premium coupe." To me premium implies these missing features (and a trunk).

muffin_man

"Granted the TL is a front wheel drive sedan with 80 less hp."

I think that sums up the TL nicely, when compared to the GTO.

midwesttrader

How often are you really going to use that extra 80 hp?

muffin_man

For the same amount of money, why not want the extra horsepower? As long as you have a car (RWD) that can handle it, it's fun. Even with 270, the TL torque steers. Plus, it's not just about the horsepower, the GTO has lots of extra torque, which you can use any time you want. Actually, I bet the GTO's engine is much more accessible in everyday driving than the TL's.

Front wheel drive is a limitation, if you want a sports car, (even one as overweight as the GTO - it's one weakness) it must be RWD. And no enthusiast is going to be considering the TL at the same time. (of course, it's also a sedan)

The GTO compares well with the 350Z, the RX-8, and the G35c, but the TL is the family sedan of the bunch, it doesn't really fit. You're trading refinement for driving experience. Each car has its tradeoffs. I'd take the GTO every time.

I think the TL is a great car, but I like the CTS better.

bottgers

If Pontiac has the Grand Am priced at or above the mid 20's, Pontiac is nuts! The Grand AM is a $18K-$19K car tops.

New Formulas and TA's could easily be had for mid 20's. They might have stickered for high 20's to low 30's, but as Pontiac soon found out, they didn't sell for those prices. I would've thought they would've learned something from that when it came time to price the GTO. I doubt they'll sell many GTO's priced in the 30's.

Anyone who thinks the GTO is a sports car is in for a disappointment. It's a modern day muscle car. Its 3700+ lb curb weight would make comparing it to true sports cars very unfavorable for the GTO.

The statement about the Acura TL suffering from torque steer is ridiculous. You obviously have never driven one. We're not talking about a Chevy Cavaleir. The TL is a very refined automobile and nothing GM makes is even comparable. Yes the GTO would have more torque and more acceleration, but all other advantages would belong to the Acura. I won't even mention build quality and resale value.

fantascp

Check out the Review by John DiPietro =Full review
of the 2004 GTO- 3/30/04 on Edmunds Home Page!

ruski

and pray every day that your TL's tranny doesn't fail.

ruski

>>>How often are you really going to use that extra 80 hp?

by the same token, why do you need Acura TL's 260HP? How often are you going to use all that power? Just get yourself some nice low powered BMW 325. Even better - you will acquire a status symbol. And the extra HP that you will be missing - screw that, who needs the extra HP.

ruski

>>>The TL is a very refined automobile and nothing GM makes is even comparable.

Yeah, GM never managed to build a POS transmission like Acura's that is prone to failure after a failure. And even when it is not breaking, Acura's transmission is pretty bad at doing the job.

ruski

what's your beef with the price?

How much does a Corvette cost? Are there any big rebates on a Corvette?

Now, you are getting a car that may be better than a Corvette (same engine, very good build quality, better interior components, more luxury, more utility) for less. How is it so bad?

And believe me Acura TL is not all that. I have a 2002 TL-S and can't wait for the lease to end. When it is in the right mood, it runs great, but it doesn't tell you when it is going to be in the right mood or wrong mood.

bottgers

You guys act as though the TL's tranny problems occure with every vehicle and that the problems are catastophic. It ain't so. The problems occure with a relatively low number of vehicles. You just hear a lot more from people having problems than those who don't.

The GTO may be better than the Corvette? Does somebody have some unrealistically lofty expectations or what? That'll never happen.

muffin_man

"The TL is a very refined automobile and nothing GM makes is even comparable."

Yeah, I'm sure it's going to be real productive discussing this with you, unbiased critic that you are.

I've driven plenty of different cars, new and old TL included. As I said, "the TL is a great car." The TL _DOES_ suffer from torque steer, the TL did not feel that great in the corners. There is a reason why performance cars use RWD. I called the GTO overweight myself, you rubbing it in hardly furthers your point, and having to bring up build quality and resale value in a discussion of driving dynamics (which is all that I talked about) is a pretty desperate measure.

Go ahead and take your juiced up family sedan, _IT IS A GREAT CAR_, but it a FWD sedan. My friend bought one, I had an extended and spirited test drive, and it is definitely Acura's best sedan effort to date, but overweight or not, the GTO is far closer to a sports car than the TL will ever be.

thomas1

"How often are you going to use that extra 80 horsepower"

Every time I accelerate.

Just purchased silver over black 6-speed. Enjoying every moment. As expected, car is a ROCKET. Grin factor very high. Have seen/sat in a TL; very nice but as a front driver, it's performance limitations are inherent. I looked around, drove several rear-drive coupes 25-35K, none had the performance/luxury combo. of the GTO. Yes, it's GM, yes, it's missing a few features, yes, it will probably depreciate sharply, but for the price (2k under list)you'd better show me who can beat the performance, because if I could have found it, I'd be driving it.

thomas1

Forgot to mention...In response to post #1149, "real world" gas mileage has thus far been acceptable to me at around 19mpg.

qbrozen

TL; very nice but as a front driver, it's performance limitations are inherent.

There is a reason why performance cars use RWD.

why does every discussion come down to this? Yet nobody can tell me how Acuras and Mazdas consistently win SCCA championships against RWD competitors (and BMW wins, too, no argument there).

Yeah, GM never managed to build a POS transmission like Acura's that is prone to failure after a failure.

LOL!! You're kidding, right? Ever owned an S-10 series? Ever tried to get past 110K miles on the same tranny? Sure, 110K miles isn't exactly atrocious, but its certainly not beyond reproach. And I'm being kind. 110K was actually the longest lasting one I came into contact with. My closest friend went through 3 tranny rebuilds on his '89 blazer before dumping it before it even had 100K.

Anyway, back to the GTO, are folks wanting test drives finding dealers receptive?

muffin_man

Think the TL (or any stock front driver you can buy) is going to win any SCCA championships? We're not driving Integra type-R caliber cars here. The truth is, tuned for the street, there is a huge difference in handling. (usually)

Sure, there are FWD cars that run 7.xx second quarter miles, and win championships, but they are not the same cars sitting on showroom floors.

This months Motor Trend cover article, GTO vs. CLK55. I wonder why they didn't run the TL vs. the CLK55?

bigdaddycoats

If I remember correctly GM is hoping to sell 18k of these per year. So far sales this year are -

Jan-476
Feb-606
Mar-719

I know the GTO just went on sale in Jan. but these numbers seem kind of slow to me. I live in the metro Detroit area and three dealers around me have quite a few in stock - 11,9,8 I believe. Are inventories high or very low in other parts of the country? With all of the good review the GTO has gotten I would not expect to see very many on dealer lots.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, thanks for getting us back on track. This is a forum for the GTO and singing the praises of antoher make should be done in that brand's own topic. Use the search feature to find the appropriate topic in which to post.

thanks

Host

orwoody

Seems Like the Pacific NW sales are slow. It felt like we were the last area in the country to get any GTOs and the dealers only got 1/2. I've been tracking the inventories in WA & OR and they seem to have most of the same cars listed for weeks. The dealer I'm friendliest with has only sold one. They've had a Red one on the showroom floor for over a month.

crispiegee

Wow, has this group has gotten acrimonious!

I noticed the whole argument about the TL vs. GTO, and I don't believe it's unreasonable to cross shop these cars. A couple of months ago, I listed my pros & cons between the GTO and 2005 Mustang, but the 'Stang is not the GTO's only competition for my dollars.

My considerations of a new car include the GTO (which I love, but I'm waiting for the LS2), the Chrysler 300C (fast & plush, though no hooligan antics - bummer!), the 2005 Mustang (great looking, but Ford quality has me apprehensive), and a several imports. Having driven my friend's Acura TL, I think it's an awesome car with impressive power and a gorgeous interior.

That said, we all have our reasons for cross-shopping various cars. The GTO is an outstanding car, although I have a few concerns about its resale value. My point being: I don't think you can call someone's alternate choices dumb, as each person has their own priorities for what they need in a car.

mustang_svt

Thomas1: What about the Cobra? I know, a couple of thousand pricier than a GTO but at least the coupe is playing in the same ballpark. The 2k buys you the ability to handily smoke the GTO. I will say that if mine suffered from the widespread stalling problem I'd be ditching it for a GTO, but fortunately that's not the case :-). 6.0L in '05 and I'm there baby!

Crispie: Is anyone really happy with the resale value? I haven't traded or sold a car yet in which the offers didn't leave me doing the HUH?!#$%& thing. Some things' value shouldn't be measured in terms of dollars - fast, fun cars and Las Vegas trips are two that come to mind.

v8lincolnguy

Well, having 80 extra horses on tap is never a bad thing, but for anyone who likes performance, RWD is the way to go. Prior to my Lincoln LS, I had owned only FWD cars. I always thought my previous car(Oldsmobile Intrigue) handled very well for a FWD car and thought the automotive press was biased toward RWD cars. Having driven the LS for 7 months now, I can see why. The overall driving feel of a well balanced RWD car is just better. I think I would have a hard time going back to FWD. From most accounts that I have read, the Acura TL is one of the better handling FWD sedans. But it is still FWD and with that comes some limitations. To the average driver who is moving up from a Ford Taurus or a Toyota Camry, a car like the TL would probably fit the bill 100%. But for those of us who really like to drive our cars, a front wheel drive car probably won't be as satisfying.

thomas1

Yes sir, the SVT is one very fast car. You might choose to check out Motor Trend's review of the GTO, however, as its comments regarding the GTO in comparison to the SVT pretty much sums up my test drive impression. Overall handleing/driving impression, daily usability, fit/finsh, etc., I think are all equally important to flat out speed. Regarding the 'O5 GTO, unless they figure out how to get significantly more torque at a lower rpm I don't see how it's going to be significantly faster. Look at the CTS-V for comparison. The LS-6 is 400/395 but at higher revs. At a similar weight (+/- 3800lbs.) it's listed at 5.1 to 60. I don't think most of us are going to notice 0.2 seconds unless we're actually racing. So,...how'd like to race?

Another comment on the front drive/rear drive arguement. The answer, of course, is AWD. My 'winter beater', since I refused to accept the paltry sum the dealer offered to trade for, will be my A6 2.7T. Very quick and extremely capable in all weather conditions, it still doesn't offer the performance driving dynamics of a RWD car. To drive one/own one is to know. To argue against the case is just plain silly.

But hey, back to the GTO. I'd love to hear buyer/owner experiences thus far. This is my best fix for my interest in cars, so let's read it.