Pontiac GTO

mustang_svt

Can't argue with you on that point. When you buy a Cobra you're likely buying a squeak or two. I do think that if the GTO ends up with a 6.0L making 400hp, it will beat a stock Cobra. The Cobra isn't exactly a lightweight tipping the scales at 3600 lbs & change. Of course, the GTO goes to 400 hp ... the Cobra answers in '06 ... and then the Vette will have to do something to stay ahead of those two upstarts ... but Dodge will be doing something to justify $85,000. Wait a minute - I read somewhere that the hp war ended with the Camaro/Firebird line. :-)

ruski

my TL had TWO tranny replacements. It is not a small problem and the way it breaks is pretty dangerous.

I don't know about S10, but the GM tranny I have experience with (the one in Pontiac Grand Prix GTP is very nice).

Also BMW gets their 5-speed auto trannies from GM. They chose GM and not Honda.

riez

Looked over the May 2004 MT test results for their GTO automatic (comparison test with MB CLK55 AMG). MT pans the AT's lack of manumatic control and its spacing:

"The Pontiac's transmission also boasts three modes: forward, backward, and stop. ... behaves well enough...the power fall-off at each shift is far greater than that of the [MB], especially on the 3-4 change. It isn't that this transmission is so awful; it just saps a lot of driver involvement out of the experience."

Not surprising considering it is only a 4-speed with a moderately deep overdrive 4th.

But at least their GTO still ran 0-60 mph in 5.4 seconds and did 1/4 mile in 13.85 secs at 101.41 mph.

ruski... BMW only gets some of its ATs from GM. And BMW modifies the GM units, using BMW software, to create its Steptronic manumatic shifting capability. This is what the GTO's AT lacks.

qbrozen

whether what you can buy off the showroom floor is up to the task or not is not the point. The complaint is that FWD is limited and can never perform up to par. The fact that there are successful racecars with FWD disproves that argument. Can you purchase that racecar from a dealership? No. But the existence of it is what proves that, engineered correctly, it can compete with and even beat comparable RWD cars.

Its one thing to say Car X cannot compete with Car Y. But to say that ALL FWD cars, no matter what, are inferior, is obviously ignorant of the success that such a setup has shown in racing. do you think those BMW drivers getting beat by Acuras and Mazdas are saying that their cars are better because they are RWD? No. They will tell you neither is better, they are just different. But, really, this should be brought over to this discussion:
/direct/view/.ee9e419

midwesttrader

Glad to see some life on this board...been awfully slow lately (kinda like GTO sales).

The RWD camp thumping their chests get's rather old doesn't it. A properly tuned FWD car will give them one heck of a run for their money.

I don't for one minute think it's fair to compare the GTO and TL off the line, or even head-to head for that matter. The point I've been trying to make is that after you get past the powerplant this car does not offer a good overall value to enough potential buyers at $33K.

Sticker price it wherever you want, but sell them at $28 or $29K and they'll move.

muffin_man

I am going to read through all those messages over the next few weeks (years?), because I do find it an interesting topic. However, like OHV vs. OHC, I don't think that anybody ever agrees no matter what.

>The complaint is that FWD is limited and can >never perform up to par.

FWD is limited, but it can certainly perform up to par. The aforementioned type-R can certainly outhandle most stock RWD cars anywhere near its former price range. The SRT-4, Cooper S, Focus SVT and many others (note, I'm not even using my current car, a Civic Si) are fantastic handlers. That said, it feels much different pushing a Miata, CTS, 3-series, 350z, or many others, than a car like a TL or RSX-S.

>The fact that there are successful racecars >with FWD disproves that argument.

I didn't make that argument.

>Can you purchase that racecar from a >dealership?

No, and that is very significant.

>No. But the existence of it is what proves >that, engineered correctly, it can compete with >and even beat comparable RWD cars.

I think it's safe to say that no F1 cars are ever going to be FWD.

Could a well engineered FWD car compete with or beat a comparable RWD, of course. Is FWD more limited on certain tracks than RWD. Yes.

qbrozen

"on certain tracks"

interesting disclaimer. Also applies the other way around.

muffin_man

I disagree. I don't think that RWD has limitations on any paved course. (I'm not trying to push the superiority of RWD on any off-road courses)

cvp33

While the horsepower increase in the upper range will not help with 0-60 times it will dramatically lower 0-100 and 1/4 mile times. The CTS-V reaches 100 mph in 11.4 secs. That's on par with the Porsche Carrera among others. It also traps in the quarter at 109 mph.

I can also tell you that once you get around 3,500 miles and about 3 oil changes on the CTS-V the LS6 comes alive. I have 4,300 miles on mine and it's definitely loosening up a bit.

white6

if the new GTO was front-wheel-drive?
And, yes, the LS1/6 definitely shows marked improvement after 4-5,000 miles.

midwesttrader

we know the response to RWD. 1800 cars sold in 9 months (including the infamous Advanced Order Program).

mustang_svt

There's really nothing I can see that should be holding sales back - unless perhaps the weather. The only thing stopping me is that it doesn't have quite enough juice yet, but not a slow car by any stretch. I hope things turn around soon or GM will have no motivation to invest in upgrading the engine.

andys120

riez

Keep in mind...

a. The '94 Chevrolet Impala SS sold about 6,000 units in its first year, when it came only in black. But that car really stood out compared to the rest of the market and it got a ton of great press. Sales increased dramatically in '95 and doubled over that in '96. Think it sold about 65-70,000 units over 3 years. GM/Chevy had a hit. They didn't need to offer rebates or incentives. Base price rose from about $23K in '94 to over $26K in '96. Dealers could sell at or near MSRP. Car has really kept its resale value! (I sold my '96 in late '01 for $18,000. Paid $26K.)

b. The Mercury Marauder has been a huge market failure.

The GTO has a lot more competition in 2004. And the competition is very competitive (e.g., G35 coupe).

If you want a car for family use, GTO has small trunk, 2-doors, lacks safety equipment (e.g., side airbags, side curtain airbags, etc.).

Know I was interested but besides the above I also had issues or concerns with:

1. Poor warranty for the MSRP (why not 4/50 b-to-b?)
2. Future resale value--depreciation likely to be steep.
3. Getting burned early after GM and Pontiac dealers start offering deep discounts and rebates--early buyer pays top dollar and a year later you can save a fortune.
4. No reliability history. Pontiac's general reputation in this area is average at best.

montanafan

Why not just say "1800 GTOs sold in 30 years". That makes it sound even worse.

And from what I have read, what made the advance order program "infamous" was that everyone misunderstood what it ment. It was just Pontiac's way of starting contact with the future buyers. Everyone inturpeted it as meaning they were at the front of the line to get a car. All the advanced sold order got them was to the front of their dealers unordered allocation line.

Kick in the $500 bucks and buy a warranty for the extra year if it is such a concern. 3/36 is what Pontiacs offer. They don't even offer a longer warranty on the Vibe to equal its sister the Matrix.

What does "Pontiac's" reputation and reliability have to do with a GTO? It is only sold by them, not made by them.

riez

montanafan... I was commenting on why the GTO might be experiencing slow sales.

reliability: I can't wait to read the CR Annual Car issue in 2007 to see how they rate '04 GTO reliability. Will it be trouble-free or trouble-some? There is no past in USA, so reliability is a complete gamble. (GM and Pontiac aren't known for stellar reliability. The last Australian car I remember was the not-too-distant Mercury Capri roadster, which was overly reliable.) Wanna bet that '04 Infiniti G35 reliability is better or worse in that issue?

warranty: For the same money, someone could buy an Infiniti G35 coupe with 4/60 b-to-b warranty & roadside assistance and 6/70 powertrain warranty.

resale: Just look at how much any Pontiac built in last 20 years was worth 3, 5, and 10 years later. I can't think of one that is reknown for holding its resale value.

discounts: Anyone want to bet that GM and Pontiac aren't offering deep discounts, rebates, or incentives in future? If they do, those who bought early will be burned.

ruski

9 months? What kind of calendar are you on?

mlm4

I bet a bunch of folks who forked out big bucks to be first on the block to get a Chrysler Crossfire are not happy about the $2500 incentive now being offered. Now, I doubt there will be an incentive on the Chevy SSR, but that one is lower volume than even the GTO. A pre-determined number of GTOs are being built and shipped across the Pacific and if they are still sitting on dealers' lots this summer I would bet that there will be an incentive to move them.

Can you say "Miata?"

v8lincolnguy

The G35 coupe is nice, but it lacks a V8. Again, where else can one get a well balanced, V8 powered, RWD coupe with IRS, a good amount of luxury, and sleek styling for low to mid 30s? I've said this 100 times and I'll say it again, there is nothing quite like the feel and sound of a V8. Maybe I'm just biased toward them and yes, some V6s can be just as fast. But the overall sound and smooth surge of power a V8 gives just can't be beat IMO.

merc1

I finally went to test drive the GTO today. The above post is correct that V8 surge and sound is unigue and not easily topped. However the GTO I'll just say is a work in progress, imo. The car is missing a left foot dead pedal, sunroof, heated seats among other things. Sure it does drive well, but its not as "tight" or slick as a car like that G35 Coupe and the Infiniti also has a engine and exhaust sound to be proud of. The GTO just doesn't feel all of a single piece like the G35 Coupe. Amazingly the G35 Coupe is no better in interior quality and is probably behind the GTO in interior design. Pontiac salesmen really are still in the old days of selling cars. The salesman told me that heated seats aren't needed because nobody is going to drive the car in the winter, and a sunroof isn't needed because its a "sports car"???? WTH! Overall while a decent effort the GTO like so many first year GM cars is only half done. Is that the gas tank taking up all the room in the trunk behind the rear seats???

M

graphicguy

While the General is the "king" of rebates, there is no reason for the to offer one on the GTO. It's brand new (to these shores, anyway) and it hasn't been in the market long enough for GM to ascertain whether they need to clear them off the lots. The prime selling season is coming around for cars of this type, too (Spring, Summer, Fall).

Someone mentioned that Corvettes never see rebates. While that's been true in the past, with the C6 coming to market, I've seen some awfully sweet deals on the C5 advertised in the local paper recently....$7K off MSRP (I believe that includes a $2K rebate from Chevy).

The Corvette has always been at the top of the heap performance-wise for GM. They've always made that a priority. You aren't going to see a 400HP GTO until you see a 450HP Corvette.

midwesttrader

The 2004 GTO Advanced Order Program was announced on 6/20/03. They obviously felt (hoped) there would be plenty of pent-up demand.

Quoting marketing director Bob Kraut, "With this advanced order program, our Pontiac dealers will have all of the necessary information to assure that buyers lucky enough to purchase one of these GTOs will receive the vehicle they ordered about 90 days after it is built."

I know they hit the lots in mid-December, but if it's available to order, it's on sale.

graphicguy - you're right, we'll know in the next few months if this car is a flop or not.

ezrapon

The dealer said there would be a 6.0 on the horizon as the 5.7 is dead in all other applications. The HP rating will probably not be Corvette caliber until the Z06 hits the ground. As for the vette being the fasted of all GM cars, this is not true. Mid 70's trans ams ran better times with the 455 and 400 T/A engines. Most vettes of that era had 350 station wagon engines except fot the rare 220 hp L88 series. The Buick Grand Nationals were MUCH faster than all vettes in the 80's. The late Ws6 and SS cars would beat all but 6-speed vettes; the majority of the vettes were the autos with the 3:08 rear ends...... I wonder how old this GTO platform is? How long has it been around in Australia.

v8lincolnguy

Of all the features the GTO lacks, the sunroof is almost a must on a car like this. Yeah, I can do without heated seats and automatic climate control, but what better way than to enjoy blazing down a two lane road with the windows down and the sunroof open, enjoying the soundtrack the LS1 V8 produces.

Mr_Shiftright

Is that because it would cut off too much headroom do you think?

ezrapon

probably due to the small curved roof line. At best, they could put that funky GP roof on that extends over the roof when open. That feature kept a GP out of my garage.

cvp33

I ordered my GTO in July '03 and it arrived in April '04. My TPW was 10/9, then 11/4 and finally 11/27 confirmed. My GTO took over 134 days to arrive after being built and nearly 9 months from my order date. The pre-order program was an ill-conceived farse which cost Pontiac multiple sales from people who simply couldn't wait any longer. It also gave me the opportunity to buy the CTS-V. I was hoping GM would do better. Maybe next time.

blh7068

"Mid 70's trans ams ran better times with the 455 and 400 T/A engines."

Ran better times against a new(er) vette?

Not even close. Mid 70s T/A's were dogs for the most part...with the 455 putting out 200 net hp in 75 and 76...220 in 74(sans SD 455). At best, around 15 in the 1/4 with a 4 speed.

The best performing TAs of the 70s were the SD(73-74) cars... possibly included would be a 70 TA with a RA 4 motor. Good luck finding any of those.

ezrapon

compare a mid 70's trans am to a new(er) vette. I still have a 79 T/A 400... it's capable of a low 15 on a good day. I'm talking same year against same year. 75 vette against 75 455 4/speed...still a torque monster.
Same story in 76. 78 T/A 220 hp bested the fastest vette of that year...I still have motor trends and car and drivers reviews. After 80, neither of them were of any interest (until the LT-1). Back to the GTO... It seems as though alot of ownwers or perspective owners are making excuses for the style. How many would rather see the 6.0 liter GTO RWD platform look like the GTP or GXP?

orwoody

Although I haven't driven one yet, the new GTO (Monero) is a decent runner and better handler than the muscle cars of yor. I grew up reading my older brothers car mags; R&T, Motor trend, Car & Driver... So I recall reading articles about the Trans Ams, Buick GS, Grand Nationals... I even got to drive a few of them. Some were all power, drive you right into the seat springs, but keeping them on the road could be a challenge.

Here's some links for real data.

1972 Buick GS Stage 1
http://groups.msn.com/NorthernBuickClub/gshistory.msnw

1976 Pontiac Trans AM (0-60mph = 7 seconds)
http://www.garage-inc.de/pontiac/1976.HTM

Various Cars with Buick V-6 (Charged)
Buick GN (0-60mph = 6 seconds)
http://home.flash.net/~rjgeorge/accel.htm

I couldn't find too many composites on the corvette, but it has traditionally been the fastest or one of the fastest production cars...

from what I see the new er cars are faster and better handling.

ezrapon

our little GTO has been rebadged and sold in the mid east as the Lumina SS. It comes in a sedan and station wagon. Yes the 350 is available (coupe only) with a 5 speed stick. Appears to be the same interior and exterior. go to http://www.gmarabia.com/ click saudia arabia and find the chevrolet lumina. Very interesting. Our pontiac is also a Chevy. Is this a great deception... waiting for a new car that has already been around the block? Pontiac has done nothing new or exciting here. The GTO is back? I don't think so. It's just a Lumina that never left. Also notice the Caprice SS with the ls1 engine... If you really want to see the ball dropped, check the chevy SS 400 HP GTO clone hey...we'd buy these things!!! The current GTO is nothing more than second rate cold left overs compared to these cars.

ezrapon

this is what the GTO should have been from the get-go. http://gmstars.com/index.htm the Chevrolet SS 400. feast your eyes!

blh7068

I thought you were comparing apples to apples, but I wasnt completely sure.

Yes, mid 70s vettes(75-76) put out an anemic 160 hp or something like that.

Back to the GTO...

I agree with you on the styling of the GTO. I like the fact it is a very unassuming vehicle. IMO its not bland, but not flashy either.

Great link for gmarabia, btw.

mustang_svt

Holy $#!^!!! Just looked at the SS-400. That's the car I'm waiting for! Is that what's available in Saudi Arabia? Is this just a concept? The site just says 'GM Stars'. You bet it is. I've always shopped lots until I found the car that spoke to me (never ordered). In this case, show me the Advanced Order Program signup sheet.

andys120

what're you guys getting so wired up about?
The SS-400 looks like what it is, a rebadged Holden Monaro HSV. You CAN get one of those here
it's called the Pontiac GTO.

Am I missing something?

crispiegee

The SS-400 is simply an HSV Coupe GTO with left-hand drive. Notice how the trunklid spoiler makes the car looks longer and sleeker than the GTO's stupid wing? The grille and fascia has a sleek but aggressive Euro look (can't be seen in that photo).

I have stated repeatedly that if the Pontiac GTO looked EXACTLY like the HSV Coupe 4, I would buy it tomorrow. I wish the GTO had slightly flared wheel openings to give the side some character. I also wished it had the attractive Holden front end, instead of the ugly Pontiac grille. Oh, and the HSV has a much better rear-valence.

I'm still thinking about a 2005 GTO, however, I may buy a Chrysler 300C Hemi for now, and see if the Goat improves for '06 or '07.

andys120

think stacked headlights.

ezrapon

the excitement division had advanced orders, heavy promos, and smoke and mirrors for a car already in existence. The Lumina SS already has 18 inch rims, Z06 engine, and a sleeker look. Notice the ground effects and spoilers. I imagine the SS will be 450 HP when it gets the 6.0...wow. Maybe, this thing is too nasty for the USA. Maybe it would kill vette sales. I see the guys over in the GP forum talking about rumors of a GTP with a 5.3 V-8 next year, they need to see what the mid-east motor heads have... who needs a 5.3? In essence, pontiac had a very inovative idea for a history making car, however, it was in 1964 not 2004. By the way, it is left hand drive like our "little" GTO. Maybe this will be the new Judge? Fence sitters ask your self this, If the SS Lumina was sitting in the pontiac show room right now, would you be there? I would be the 1st one in line!!

mustang_svt

It could be that I'm missing something. I assumed (and we know what that spells) that the '400' in SS400 was refering to 400hp. 350hp gets the GTO to within a 1/2 second of the Cobra, and 400 or more in the GTO has got to make it at least comparable. Comparable performance is all I would need to move over to the GTO given the GTO's superior build quality over a Cobra. Not to mention that I'd be in an '05 vs. an '03.

bottgers

Talking about auto trannies to me in cars like this is falling on deaf ears. It's my belief every performance car should have a manual tranny and I wouldn't buy one with an auto. Autos are for family vehilces. Also, I'd venture a guess that GM's made a heck of a lot more lemon trannies over the years than Acura has.

imonty

I agree with you. It does look like an HSV GTO rather than an HSV GTS or Coupe4 or a straight Monaro. This has me confused. HSV is owned by Tom Walkinshaw and is not part of GM although they obviously have a vested interest in HSV succeeding. The HSV GTO puts out around 300KW but the best one is the Coupe4. It is down on power by about 5KW but when you don't need to slow down for corners WHO CARES!
I think you guys are starting to see how you are becoming part of the global village. we have for years. Holden has rebadged Vauxhalls, GM has sold Holden in South africa and the Arab states as Chevy Luminas. We have even had Toyotas badged as Holdens and vice-versa and Fords as Nissans. Anything is possible these days.

I do agree that the Coupe4 has the cleanest and meanest look of all the Monaros to date, but have a quick look at the Vauxhall version to be released later this year I think the frontal treatment on that is cool too.

I hope we get a few more Aussies contributing to this board as i'm of to work in China for 12 months so I won't have much news.

PS Just go and buy a GTO and stop messing around. The grin when you drive it WILL be worth it.

scscars

My local Pontiac dealer in the NW suburbs of Chicago has put the bling-bling on a black GTO.

The dealer installed low-profile 18" Falken tires on chrome 5-spoke Forte rims. Along with that, the dealer plastered on obnoxious looking red, gray, and white stripes that run the length of the car on both sides, that fade into the letters GTO on the rear quarter panels beneath the sides of the spoiler. The GTO letters are not even close to being a Pontiac GTO logo, and look like they were created by a local "artist". The supplemental sticker shows no charge for the decals, but the tires and rims cost $5000 on top of a $33,715 sticker. Ouch!

bottgers

The bad thing about that deal is you're paying for the factory rims and tires and you don't even get them! I'd make them either give me the OEM tires and wheels or knock off about 3 grand for credit.

crispiegee

Hello Imonty,

What frustrates me is how much better many of your cars look. Not only the Coupe GTO vs. Pontiac GTO, but compare a Ford Falcon (5.4 liter supercharged V8) to our silly looking Mercury Marauder. The Australian Ford is cool and European looking, with an elegant shape. They should make a left-hand drive version and sell it here!

American manufacturers are obsessive about using their corporate "face." Consequently, EVERY Dodge has to have that tiresome gunsight grille, every Pontiac must have a split grille and every Chevy must have an eggcrate grille. They end up sacrificing good styling to preserve their brand identity.

If I was a millionaire, I'd have all sorts of interesting cars that you can't get here, including the Vauxhaul VX220 and (instead of a GTO) a left-hand drive HSV Coupe 4.

(By the way, Imonty, one of the other things swaying me toward the Chrysler is that I have a contact who will get me exceptional pricing. This translates to less of a risk of losing massive amounts of resale value if I decide to trade it for the 2007 GTO. If the current GTO is regarded as an orphan or the "one that wasn't fully cooked," I could really get bitten when I try to trade it in or sell it.)

ruski

I just hope that they are not building better tanks and Hummers for them.

imonty

Yeah the world is being run by marketing and stylists that believe their own statements and don't listen enough to the outside world. You are right about the current Falcon. It is a great looking package but the strange thing is that the XR6 turbo can be made faster than the V8 version. Holden tried likewise with a V6 Monaro but deleted it fairly quickly. The "Corporate look" is everywhere (even the falcon has a "ford face". The Holdens here seem to be the exception -except when export is involved and the marketing people in the importing country "know better" like Pontiac did (or more correctly didn't). You will have to wait for the next model for a left hand drive Coupe4. The system will just not work in current format as there is no way of making headers to fit around the front drive system. I am sure they will do it differently in the next model. As the Coupe4 is an HSV model it might not be available for export but who knows judging by the SS-400 picture which to me is HSV not straight Holden. You have to remember that the Monaro was created in secret. Only a few people (like 20 or so) in the entire Holden organization knew about it until was ready to go to the Sydney Motor show for its first display, even then it was not seriously expected to become a production car.

I see your point about the Chrysler. Money does rule the heart sometimes. It seems we are about to get them out here too. I saw one at the Melbourne Motor show and liked it. Unfortunately I won't get to drive one before I go to China.

oldman

Any of you folks actually think the paint and interior colors are "wonderful" on the gto? To me, the nauseating color "options" are way way too much for my delicate stomach. While Ive owned 454 cid corvette, two Z28s, ordered a 2002 F bod SLP 360HP Z28 (in shear outrage I finally cancelled my order after waiting 18 weeks for my car, idiot chevy dealer never knew squat), I would seriously like to consider the gto. But I'll never understand what blockhead was allowed to ruin the project by the "choice" of paint colors. I'll never be able to go back to GM ever again I guess. Now maybe the 2006 SVT cobra mustang will be my next ride???

tripowergto

It seems to me the colors are fairly typical of a GTO or other sporty cars including the Firebird/Camaros, Mustangs or Corvettes. Bright yellow, bright red, silver, black, two blues...what's so "nauseating" about that? I saw a silver 6spd with black interior that was nicely understated and quite refined looking. What other colors would you hope to see? I'd say white and possibly gold are the most obvious omissions.

I'm very happy to see some actual choices in interior colors other then dark grey and taupe, which is nauseating to me,lol.

scarletstang

I think it is such a shame. Us fans of those old Tiger's were expecting much more. It should have been an exception, not a mixer. Maybe I'll have to look at a new Charger.

oldman

I'm with ya on the interior color schemes which are too narrow for a 35 grand car in todays marketplace. I don't mind reds, or bright colors per se, but the combination of available interior color with paint just does not result in a sophisticated or wholesome impression with this gto. It is a brassy, crass, overpowering effect that drives away persons seeking a product with subtle beauty to complement stunning performance. Not something you'd want to look at for a long ownership cycle. Way too loud overall, like a bleached blonde whore with huge breast implants and gaudy jewelry.