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Pontiac GTO
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I don't know about S10, but the GM tranny I have experience with (the one in Pontiac Grand Prix GTP is very nice).
Also BMW gets their 5-speed auto trannies from GM. They chose GM and not Honda.
"The Pontiac's transmission also boasts three modes: forward, backward, and stop. ... behaves well enough...the power fall-off at each shift is far greater than that of the [MB], especially on the 3-4 change. It isn't that this transmission is so awful; it just saps a lot of driver involvement out of the experience."
Not surprising considering it is only a 4-speed with a moderately deep overdrive 4th.
But at least their GTO still ran 0-60 mph in 5.4 seconds and did 1/4 mile in 13.85 secs at 101.41 mph.
ruski... BMW only gets some of its ATs from GM. And BMW modifies the GM units, using BMW software, to create its Steptronic manumatic shifting capability. This is what the GTO's AT lacks.
Its one thing to say Car X cannot compete with Car Y. But to say that ALL FWD cars, no matter what, are inferior, is obviously ignorant of the success that such a setup has shown in racing. do you think those BMW drivers getting beat by Acuras and Mazdas are saying that their cars are better because they are RWD? No. They will tell you neither is better, they are just different. But, really, this should be brought over to this discussion:
/direct/view/.ee9e419
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
The RWD camp thumping their chests get's rather old doesn't it. A properly tuned FWD car will give them one heck of a run for their money.
I don't for one minute think it's fair to compare the GTO and TL off the line, or even head-to head for that matter. The point I've been trying to make is that after you get past the powerplant this car does not offer a good overall value to enough potential buyers at $33K.
Sticker price it wherever you want, but sell them at $28 or $29K and they'll move.
>The complaint is that FWD is limited and can >never perform up to par.
FWD is limited, but it can certainly perform up to par. The aforementioned type-R can certainly outhandle most stock RWD cars anywhere near its former price range. The SRT-4, Cooper S, Focus SVT and many others (note, I'm not even using my current car, a Civic Si) are fantastic handlers. That said, it feels much different pushing a Miata, CTS, 3-series, 350z, or many others, than a car like a TL or RSX-S.
>The fact that there are successful racecars >with FWD disproves that argument.
I didn't make that argument.
>Can you purchase that racecar from a >dealership?
No, and that is very significant.
>No. But the existence of it is what proves >that, engineered correctly, it can compete with >and even beat comparable RWD cars.
I think it's safe to say that no F1 cars are ever going to be FWD.
Could a well engineered FWD car compete with or beat a comparable RWD, of course. Is FWD more limited on certain tracks than RWD. Yes.
interesting disclaimer. Also applies the other way around.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I can also tell you that once you get around 3,500 miles and about 3 oil changes on the CTS-V the LS6 comes alive. I have 4,300 miles on mine and it's definitely loosening up a bit.
And, yes, the LS1/6 definitely shows marked improvement after 4-5,000 miles.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
a. The '94 Chevrolet Impala SS sold about 6,000 units in its first year, when it came only in black. But that car really stood out compared to the rest of the market and it got a ton of great press. Sales increased dramatically in '95 and doubled over that in '96. Think it sold about 65-70,000 units over 3 years. GM/Chevy had a hit. They didn't need to offer rebates or incentives. Base price rose from about $23K in '94 to over $26K in '96. Dealers could sell at or near MSRP. Car has really kept its resale value! (I sold my '96 in late '01 for $18,000. Paid $26K.)
b. The Mercury Marauder has been a huge market failure.
The GTO has a lot more competition in 2004. And the competition is very competitive (e.g., G35 coupe).
If you want a car for family use, GTO has small trunk, 2-doors, lacks safety equipment (e.g., side airbags, side curtain airbags, etc.).
Know I was interested but besides the above I also had issues or concerns with:
1. Poor warranty for the MSRP (why not 4/50 b-to-b?)
2. Future resale value--depreciation likely to be steep.
3. Getting burned early after GM and Pontiac dealers start offering deep discounts and rebates--early buyer pays top dollar and a year later you can save a fortune.
4. No reliability history. Pontiac's general reputation in this area is average at best.
And from what I have read, what made the advance order program "infamous" was that everyone misunderstood what it ment. It was just Pontiac's way of starting contact with the future buyers. Everyone inturpeted it as meaning they were at the front of the line to get a car. All the advanced sold order got them was to the front of their dealers unordered allocation line.
Kick in the $500 bucks and buy a warranty for the extra year if it is such a concern. 3/36 is what Pontiacs offer. They don't even offer a longer warranty on the Vibe to equal its sister the Matrix.
What does "Pontiac's" reputation and reliability have to do with a GTO? It is only sold by them, not made by them.
reliability: I can't wait to read the CR Annual Car issue in 2007 to see how they rate '04 GTO reliability. Will it be trouble-free or trouble-some? There is no past in USA, so reliability is a complete gamble. (GM and Pontiac aren't known for stellar reliability. The last Australian car I remember was the not-too-distant Mercury Capri roadster, which was overly reliable.) Wanna bet that '04 Infiniti G35 reliability is better or worse in that issue?
warranty: For the same money, someone could buy an Infiniti G35 coupe with 4/60 b-to-b warranty & roadside assistance and 6/70 powertrain warranty.
resale: Just look at how much any Pontiac built in last 20 years was worth 3, 5, and 10 years later. I can't think of one that is reknown for holding its resale value.
discounts: Anyone want to bet that GM and Pontiac aren't offering deep discounts, rebates, or incentives in future? If they do, those who bought early will be burned.
Can you say "Miata?"
M
Someone mentioned that Corvettes never see rebates. While that's been true in the past, with the C6 coming to market, I've seen some awfully sweet deals on the C5 advertised in the local paper recently....$7K off MSRP (I believe that includes a $2K rebate from Chevy).
The Corvette has always been at the top of the heap performance-wise for GM. They've always made that a priority. You aren't going to see a 400HP GTO until you see a 450HP Corvette.
Quoting marketing director Bob Kraut, "With this advanced order program, our Pontiac dealers will have all of the necessary information to assure that buyers lucky enough to purchase one of these GTOs will receive the vehicle they ordered about 90 days after it is built."
I know they hit the lots in mid-December, but if it's available to order, it's on sale.
graphicguy - you're right, we'll know in the next few months if this car is a flop or not.
Ran better times against a new(er) vette?
Not even close. Mid 70s T/A's were dogs for the most part...with the 455 putting out 200 net hp in 75 and 76...220 in 74(sans SD 455). At best, around 15 in the 1/4 with a 4 speed.
The best performing TAs of the 70s were the SD(73-74) cars... possibly included would be a 70 TA with a RA 4 motor. Good luck finding any of those.
Same story in 76. 78 T/A 220 hp bested the fastest vette of that year...I still have motor trends and car and drivers reviews. After 80, neither of them were of any interest (until the LT-1). Back to the GTO... It seems as though alot of ownwers or perspective owners are making excuses for the style. How many would rather see the 6.0 liter GTO RWD platform look like the GTP or GXP?
Here's some links for real data.
1972 Buick GS Stage 1
http://groups.msn.com/NorthernBuickClub/gshistory.msnw
1976 Pontiac Trans AM (0-60mph = 7 seconds)
http://www.garage-inc.de/pontiac/1976.HTM
Various Cars with Buick V-6 (Charged)
Buick GN (0-60mph = 6 seconds)
http://home.flash.net/~rjgeorge/accel.htm
I couldn't find too many composites on the corvette, but it has traditionally been the fastest or one of the fastest production cars...
from what I see the new er cars are faster and better handling.
Yes, mid 70s vettes(75-76) put out an anemic 160 hp or something like that.
Back to the GTO...
I agree with you on the styling of the GTO. I like the fact it is a very unassuming vehicle. IMO its not bland, but not flashy either.
Great link for gmarabia, btw.
The SS-400 looks like what it is, a rebadged Holden Monaro HSV. You CAN get one of those here
it's called the Pontiac GTO.
Am I missing something?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I have stated repeatedly that if the Pontiac GTO looked EXACTLY like the HSV Coupe 4, I would buy it tomorrow. I wish the GTO had slightly flared wheel openings to give the side some character. I also wished it had the attractive Holden front end, instead of the ugly Pontiac grille. Oh, and the HSV has a much better rear-valence.
I'm still thinking about a 2005 GTO, however, I may buy a Chrysler 300C Hemi for now, and see if the Goat improves for '06 or '07.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I think you guys are starting to see how you are becoming part of the global village. we have for years. Holden has rebadged Vauxhalls, GM has sold Holden in South africa and the Arab states as Chevy Luminas. We have even had Toyotas badged as Holdens and vice-versa and Fords as Nissans. Anything is possible these days.
I do agree that the Coupe4 has the cleanest and meanest look of all the Monaros to date, but have a quick look at the Vauxhall version to be released later this year I think the frontal treatment on that is cool too.
I hope we get a few more Aussies contributing to this board as i'm of to work in China for 12 months so I won't have much news.
PS Just go and buy a GTO and stop messing around. The grin when you drive it WILL be worth it.
The dealer installed low-profile 18" Falken tires on chrome 5-spoke Forte rims. Along with that, the dealer plastered on obnoxious looking red, gray, and white stripes that run the length of the car on both sides, that fade into the letters GTO on the rear quarter panels beneath the sides of the spoiler. The GTO letters are not even close to being a Pontiac GTO logo, and look like they were created by a local "artist". The supplemental sticker shows no charge for the decals, but the tires and rims cost $5000 on top of a $33,715 sticker. Ouch!
What frustrates me is how much better many of your cars look. Not only the Coupe GTO vs. Pontiac GTO, but compare a Ford Falcon (5.4 liter supercharged V8) to our silly looking Mercury Marauder. The Australian Ford is cool and European looking, with an elegant shape. They should make a left-hand drive version and sell it here!
American manufacturers are obsessive about using their corporate "face." Consequently, EVERY Dodge has to have that tiresome gunsight grille, every Pontiac must have a split grille and every Chevy must have an eggcrate grille. They end up sacrificing good styling to preserve their brand identity.
If I was a millionaire, I'd have all sorts of interesting cars that you can't get here, including the Vauxhaul VX220 and (instead of a GTO) a left-hand drive HSV Coupe 4.
(By the way, Imonty, one of the other things swaying me toward the Chrysler is that I have a contact who will get me exceptional pricing. This translates to less of a risk of losing massive amounts of resale value if I decide to trade it for the 2007 GTO. If the current GTO is regarded as an orphan or the "one that wasn't fully cooked," I could really get bitten when I try to trade it in or sell it.)
I see your point about the Chrysler. Money does rule the heart sometimes. It seems we are about to get them out here too. I saw one at the Melbourne Motor show and liked it. Unfortunately I won't get to drive one before I go to China.
I'm very happy to see some actual choices in interior colors other then dark grey and taupe, which is nauseating to me,lol.