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http://wehavescissors.blogspot.com/2009/12/changing-clutch-in-pontiac-vibe-or.ht- - ml
Here's the original thread, useful tips from other user:
http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=21943
It's my understanding that the Vibe is a Toyota with different branding.
If you're going to take on this major undertaking, you're going to need lots of tools and time. I've run into lots of issues that took way more time than I expected (some requiring purchasing specialized tools) to get past steps that the service manual and blogs make sound like a piece of cake (i.e., remove the transmission cover by tapping with a plastic hammer -- yeah, right). Harbor Freight and Amazon are very happy with me but my wallet is suffering. And there are steps in the service manual that can be skipped.
Here are the trouble-spots that I ran into:
* Removing the drive shafts. Now that I know how much pressure it takes to remove them, I'd just use a flat crowbar with a piece of wood against the transmission body to pry the driveshaft housing away from the transmission -- you don't have to pry all that hard, it comes out rather easily. I rented a puller from Advance Auto Parts to do this (no charge once you return the equipment).
* Getting the transmission separated from the engine. There is a guide pin on the firewall side of the engine and transmission that refused to separate. Once I got some light on that side I was able to see the pin. I squirt some Kroil Oil on it and let it sit for about 10 minutes. Another 10 minutes later the transmission was finally off. I think that if I had pried the transmission away from the engine evenly it would not have hung up on that pin.
* Getting the transmission cover off. Spent a couple of hours banging with a plastic hammer like the directions said. I tried heating the gasket and top cover with a torch, no success. Tried using a brass rod and hammer, still a no go. Finally found a spot that I could use a flat crowbar without risking any damage to the housing, about 30 seconds later the cover was off.
* Getting the 5th driven gear off (to expose the output bearing). I needed to purchase a gear puller that had a narrow enough profile to get beneath the gear, ended up purchasing a Posi-Lock Model 104 puller from Sears (couldn't find anything else locally that would fit). It was *just* narrow enough to get beneath that gear and worked like a champ. The straight arm pullers that the service manual recommended were a lot more money.
* Separating the bell housing from the mid-section of the transmission. Instructions say to use a brass bar and hammer. The instructions failed to mention that the input and output shafts and their bearings need to be coaxed off while splitting the housing before the sections can come apart. Don't do what I did, I split the two with the transmission was on its side to get more leverage and ended up spilling some of the gears and levers inside the housing, it was a huge mess with gears hitting other gears and parts falling out. Took me an hour figure out where things go.
Three weeks ago, I suffered a sudden and catastrophic failure driving home on the freeway (thank God it was midnight and barely any traffic). I started to hear an usual whining from the transmission coupled with scraping and grinding noises and periodic screeching).
Anyway, I was still on the original clutch and I had already ordered up a new Fidanza clutch and an MWR chromoly flywheel in addition to a TRD Japan clutch line. I was actually getting really excited, but after putting all these shiny new parts in, I've come to the realization that it was not the clutch that failed, but rather, something inside the transmission. I talked to a well-regarded and heavily-recommended gear shop nearby (3 out of 6 mechanics in my area recommended the same guy). As soon as I mentioned I had a Toyota 5-spd, he went on a rant about them and how many rebuilds he's done on these Toyota transmissions. He then proceeded to show me up a blow-up diagram of the transmission and started pointing out the bearings that have most often failed. He was even aware of the plastic cage inside that he thinks has probably shattered.
Luckily, my rebuild is going to come out to around $1300-$1400 (that includes labor to remove and reassemble the transmission back on my car), which I think is an incredibly good deal. I've heard of people spending twice as much on parts and labor!
Anyway, just wanted to post my experience. After reading this thread, I almost feel like one of the lucky ones. My original clutch lasted 162,000 miles, as did my transmission. While I would have liked this transmission to keep humming for another 40,000-90,000 miles, it seems unrealistic to expect any vehicle component to last that long. I suspect that the bean counters at Toyota figure an average person will keep a car for max 10 years and drive about 15,000 miles a year. So shooting for component life of around 150,000 miles is probably expected. It's a mechanical device, and I know that there are going to be plenty of other things that will break down as I start getting closer to that 200k mark. It's just inevitable.
Please sign my petition at http://www.change.org/petitions/unbearable-transmission-bearing Hopefully if there are enough signatures, Toyota will do a recall.
Thank you!!
Please sign my petition at http://www.change.org/petitions/unbearable-transmission-bearing Hopefully if there are enough signatures, Toyota will do a recall.
Thank you!!
Please sign my petition at http://www.change.org/petitions/unbearable-transmission-bearing Hopefully if there are enough signatures, Toyota will do a recall.
Thank you!!
I plan to buy a 05 XRS Matrix. I'd like to ask your opinion about that year with XRS 6 speed transmission problem. I'm interesting in a 05 XRS with 125K miles, just replaced OEM clutch . Do you think that is OK to buy it? or maybe not? Thank you for your recommendation.
Eric
I have also heard that the clutch on the Matrix is not suitable for the weight of the car. I had to replace the clutch at the same time as the transmission! Big bucks! Both of these were replaced at 98,000 miles.
On the Matrix petition site, several people posted they had the same transmission problem with their Matrix. Definitely do your research.
Eric
Catalytic converter $600
Starter $400
Brake rotors warped at 70,000 miles ($300)
AC Relay stopped working $10
Transmission $1800
Transmission 2 $1600 hopefully with new clutch
So far, over thirty people who signed the petitition have had this happen with their Matrix (and one with a Pontiac Vibe which has the same transmission). I wonder how many others there are.
I've always been a Toyota person, but after dropping $7,000 on a 2003 Toyota Matrix with 100,000 miles on it, and only getting 2 years and 15,000 miles of use before the transmission and clutch went out, I will not buy Toyota again! Wow... my stomach turns to think that I blew $0.50 per mile on that piece of (expletive). Who would have thought that driving downtown, my biggest expense was not parking, but simply owning an F'ing Matrix.
Please excuse my disgust and frustration.
The other day I watched a guy in a Chev full-sized P/U hold it at a light on a steep hill. Just with the clutch...rocking it back and forth, back and forth, for about 90 seconds! I could smell that poor clutch and had to close the recirculate door on the HVAC. And that guy will wonder why he gets so few miles out of a clutch. Buying a used stick can be risky business if you cannot confirm the previous owner's habits, and it doesn't just end with the clutch either.
Only going up hills ~3500rpm, near the engine's torque peak.
The previous owner must have dogged it in the 8,100 miles they had it.
Unfortunately no way to know that time bomb was there.
Got the car back today. (Excellent indie shop in College Park MD)
http://www.yelp.com/biz/jungs-auto-service-college-park
The flywheel and pressure plate had blue color from overheating.
The flywheel had to be resurfaced.
The friction disk was not worn down much.
The pressure plate springs apparently were weakened from the heat.
I can really feel the difference.
I purchased a Matrix or specifically a Toyota because I thought they would last forever. I also took the vehicle to the shop where I purchased the vehicle, and the shop guy said yeah they tend to do that at 100k.
In fact, I am recalling this as I shop for a car now. Also remembering Mazda screwing loyal owners of rusted Proteges, Honda with their autos in Oydessy and Civics, Hyundai with their auto in Santa Fe and some Elantras, Chrysler and Ford with their sketchy autos and all the other non tranny related issues etc as almost all brands seem to have their issues in one way or another.
I didn't know what to think when I first learned of GM not having a drain available on their "sealed for life" auto trans in their Malibus etc many years ago now. I suppose it helped idiot-proof them by ensuring that no one puts engine oil or something else in there or overfills etc. but it still seems like a drastic solution to that.
But at least there is one big difference between oils/fluids in an auto tranny vs an engine...at least in a tranny there are no by-product contaminations from combustion, so helps in not having sulfuric acid etc eating away at bearings...but there are still sources of contamination from gear wear and clutch pack debris.
And also, I suspect that there must be additives in an auto trans fluid that assist seals in the tranny to keep their shape and pliability to resist leaks and ruptures.
I used to think that if you bought a standard, you're set for 400k + if you didn't abuse it and replaced the gear oil every 60k or so. But not so..there are good standards and poor ones. Same with autos..there are good designs and poor designs. Pays to read up before a car purchase.
If you use heavy trucks/buses etc as an example, standard transmissions last easily 3 to 4 times longer than a similar torque-capable automatic in the same application. This tells me that the standard will always be capable of greater longevity, providing the original design is good to start with.
ps-my standard 2003 Matrix died in 2007 with 84,000km
No one with these failures seems willing to answer that question.
The trans FAILED at 50000 miles! and theirs wasn't the only one to fail that early. What part of that has to do with changing trans oil? First change isn't even due by then. Now if they all failed at 300+ k km (180000 miles) and never had an oil change, then maybe you'd have a point.
Come back and try to defend if you want but if you feel you must, please do so AFTER you have researched this DESIGN FLAW first. You will find out that the MANY failures have nothing to do with neglected maintenance.
Perhaps you could also tell us why replacement trans didn't last any longer than the first one..or if they did was not much longer.
To save you some time...there is a bearing that is in a bad spot that goes oil starved due to design. If it was just a bad batch of bearings, the replacements would last longer wouldn't they?
I'm looking for information, not bluster.
Often (not)changing the oil has EVERYTHING to do with failure.
You ASSume I'm trying to blame the driver.
Maybe Toyota should spec trans oil changes every 30k miles like my previous 3 Hondas did.
Many companies now claim "lifetime" trans fluid in their automatics.
Honda once claimed 105k mile valve lash adjustments in the CRV that led to failures.
Big mistakes to make the cars seem cheaper to maintain.
Do these transmissions fail if the oil is changed like in days of old?
I still have no answer to that question, your venting not withstanding.
I changed my trans oil at 21k miles after reading about the failures.
It looked "dirtier" than the oil from one of my Hondas at 30k miles.
Maybe there's some break in wear particles that need to be cleared out early on.
It looked "dirtier" than the oil from one of my Hondas at 30k miles. "
And there ya go, you answered your own question. Dirtier oil at fewer miles means more wear than its competitor. Excessive wear is due to either inferior components or poor design of the package. I too change my oil prematurely when I buy a new (or used for that matter..first thing I do is swap fluids if I buy used) but you can't deny (not if you have researched as I have..you still haven't said) that instead of an averaged neglected trans (representing the masses) lasting 200k miles, these ones are crapping at even less than 50k. What's so hard to understand? For comparisons sake a Fiesta calls for an oil change at 150000 miles. It's first change! And far be it from me to defend Ford as I am no fan.
It is not a reasonable expectation to have to change your manual tran oil only twice fewer times as you change your crankcase oil in order to get 200k out them.
Anyway, not going to debate with you further..have last word if you want.
Car was always hard to get out of first gear. When changed ts oil -> oil was dark black.
Called toyota, support claiming they never heard about this problem. What kind of car has transmission issues at 60k 2012? The worst junker transmission would last longer.
Oh but they gave me case number if I want to complain: 1301222774.
This company does not stand by they products.
People buying Matrix are stupid. They are not quality cars. :mad:
I bought my 03 matrix with 65k miles and it already had a weird sound when I bought it. The shop said it was a clutch so I negotiated $950 off the price. Upon further diagnosis it turned out to be the transmission. I had it completely rebuilt and it lasted another 65000 miles. The fluid was new when it was rebuilt. I changed it 30k miles later. Still, the exact same problem came back 30k miles later. So blaming it on the lack of trans fluid changes is BS. I did answer your question about whether fluid changes affect it. As others have stated it is a bearing lubrication failure. You can change the fluid every day and it won't make a difference. It won't help.
I don't think Toyota did the AWD thing right. I am horribly disappointed.
In any event, please clarify, if you have a manual tran Matrix and AWD, it's a very rare beast indeed.
Sorry to hear of your troubles with it though.
Hopefully someone will help me with this. I also have the electric system do strange things (dark lights/bright lights) Toyota has really gone downhill. My whole family are Toyota owners. This is a game-changer.
keperone
The numerous complaints on the web are about the 5-speed manual.
Here's another thread about the issue:
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/132-9th-generation-2003-2008/418096-2004-matri- - x-early-transmission-failure-corolla-also-2.html
I've found those with the failure either never changed the transmission oil, don't think it's necessary to change transmission oil, or get defensive and prefer to blame Toyota rather than their lax maintenance habits.
Works for Toyota.
Post 550 might be of interest. This particular quote was ignored before and is still being ignored.
"I had it completely rebuilt and it lasted another 65000 miles. The fluid was new when it was rebuilt. I changed it 30k miles later. Still, the exact same problem came back 30k miles later. So blaming it on the lack of trans fluid changes is BS. I did answer your question about whether fluid changes affect it. As others have stated it is a bearing lubrication failure. "
And there are a few posts prior too, that would suggest he just likes to stir up a few of these newer owners/victims. When they come here for answers, they don't need some unsympathetic poster posting repeat nonsense every 7 months.
I just like to tweak the people saying "Toyota is junk".
You can get a 6-speed transmission for $2,000 and have it installed:
http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_179&products_id=1665-
On Tues the 27 of Aug 2013 she said she could hear grinding in 4th gear. She was working and did not have time to bring it in so it was Friday before she got it there. Long weekend, loaner car, and a phone call on Tuesday telling her they have to replace the transmission!!!! The car had 185 klms on it when she took delivery, she had 900 klms when she brought it to service!!!!!!! I contacted the dealer and Toyota Canada and they pretty much told me too bad that is what we are doing!!! I have contacted the Consumer Affairs and Market Place by email, have not had a response yet. Interesting to see all of these troubles with this vehicle!!!!
my email
marchetajamieson@hotmail.com
Also, lets go through the list of stuff that has failed on my matrix with 155k miles on it.
Transmission (twice)
O2 sensor
Catalytic converter
starter (twice)
Rotors warped at 60,000 miles
air conditioning relay (twice)
Not to mention tons of rattles, squeaks, and just general poor build quality.
I love the matrix, and love all the stuff it can do, all the utility etc, but the build quality is definitely shoddy for any car, and especially bad for a Toyota. I also don't really think the problem is just the Matrix. Look at all the issues with the Prius and other cars with stuck gas pedals, etc. Toyota is definitely to blame for trying to grow too big to fast.
My problem is anytime I use my Bluetooth to talk to someone who is out of state, something pops like lighting is hitting the speaker or better example is it has the sound that you hear when you tap a jumper cable to a battery post. I can't tell when it is going to happen so I jump when it happens and I am afraid that it is going to cause me to have an accident.
Why is this happening??
As far as genes squeaks and rattles my exes 05 corolla had numerous rattles that started a few months after buying it new.
I have a 2005 Toyota Matrix XR 5-speed with 92,000 miles. I, too, have a transmission problem, and the tranny is being torn down tomorrow to see if it can be repaired rather than replaced. (A USED tranny costs $1,700!!!) I called Toyota and was told by a CSR that my car had a 60,000 mile warranty or five years, so I'm out of luck. I also had the clutch replaced at 60,000 miles. My three previous Toyotas (2 Corollas and a Camry) had much better track records. I suspect that Toyota reliability is slipping and I doubt I will buy another one.
Having driving Toyotas now for 25 years - Corolla specificlly (manual trans); i can definitely say that Toyota has gone downhill from every aspect.
Fortunately no transmission issues; i drove my last mt till 275k (no clutch replacement) ever either. The more recent ones, i found shifter tends to lock a bit; they had to get it to lube the links; clutch squeeks all the time despite having tried to fix it numerous times.
i stood by toyota but next vehicle i am definitely moving to honda.