I was contemplating buying a Rubicon but have read in several sources including Edmunds that 2003 is the last model year for the inline 6. It is allegedly going to be replaced by the Liberty V6 for 2004 in Wranglers.
The Liberty drivetrain might be worth the 1 year wait.
Does anybody have any knowledge/opinions about this?
Why is i6 better? The jeep site shows torque equal but the V6 with considerably more hp and slightly better gas mileage (...at least in the Liberty). The V6 is also considerably shorter which should enable them to put in a longer rear driveshaft and improve the angle into the rear differential.
You did not mention why you were looking for full doors. The water problem?
There might be another option for your doors. All the catalogs seem to show fiberglass uppers for the doors around $700 or so. That is better than the $1500 for the full metal doors. For $1500 I would be looking at a down payment for a different Jeep with mine thrown in to boot.
If you post stuff like this in the Wrangler forum of course you are going to rile up some folks.
#7299 of 7364 Off-Road Wrangler Just Got Out Performed by chicagoland Nov 19, 2002 (07:28 pm) The Porsche Cayenne is taking on all off-road SUVs! Tell me what you think? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #7300 of 7364 There is No Doubt the Wrangler is in Trouble with this SUV! by chicagoland Nov 19, 2002 (07:33 pm)
The I6 configuration is superior to that of the V6; though there is one imbecile(now mercifully absent from TH) who insisted otherwise. The sole advantage of the V6 is that it is shorter than an I6, which is especially important in boring-AKA FWD-passenger cars.
When my (full steel) doors were stolen, I purchased replacement ones from my local Jeep dealer. It's worthwhile to know that they come in a few pieces that need to be assembled. I don't have a full catalog of everything, but among the parts were the doors themselves, the interior panels, the lock cylinder (and clips to hold it in place), the straps to keep the doors from swinging out too far, and the crank-handles for rolling up the windows. Now, when I initially ordered the doors, the guy in the parts department at the dealership told me that the door comes in just two pieces - the PRE-ASSEMBLED door itself (including a hardware kit that has the mirrors) and the interior panel. I ordered these and had them delivered to the body shop that was to paint them. Well, a week or so later I got a call from the body shop saying they needed the crank handles, lock cylinder, interior straps, and a few other parts. I was disappointed that the guy in the parts department didn't know such a simple piece of information about Wrangler doors. Hopefully this information will help you in your quest!
Incidentally, the total cost for two doors to purchase and have painted was about $2,500.00. I also learned that yellow and red are the two hardest colors to paint-match. Fortunately, mine are a pretty close match - unless you looked really closely and knew they weren't the originals, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference between the doors and the rest of the Jeep.
hey tom rob has all his photos up from the loast coast trip.theres some good photos of the baby. yesterday i got two gottrail windshield decals made for rob and i .are you out wheeling today? if so i hope your out have a safe fun time. ben
To answer tsjay's question, I live in Portage and I do know where the badlands are, but I have not been able to get there yet considering the accident I had with my 94 Wrangler. I have been through all of the magazines and have seen all of the top half fiberglass windows. Are those fiberglass half ones as good at sealing out the weather as the full, it just seems that if it was one solid door that it would be better at sealing.
hey tom could you put some photos up at rob's site? at gill's thay make you be a member to see the photos. how was your day wheeling ? we all go out next friday. from what i could see of your photos [not much to small ] it looked like fun .
You don't have to be a member at Gill's to see photos, just to post or edit photos. You can click on the photos to enlarge them, and I think you can even click on them a second time to make them even bigger. Might as well register at Gill's and become a member anyway... it's free.
I might put up some at Rob's, but I think the files are too big for Rob's site, unless he has changed something.
Hey, you're right about having to register in Gill's in order to be able to enlarge pics. It didn't used to be that way, and I'll bet Gill doesn't know it is like that now. Gill was probably fiddling with some stuff and didn't realize that he had changed that. He is out of town right now, but I will let him know about it.
Hey, don't be afraid to register at Gill's. Everything is free there, and you don't get on some stupid mailing list or anything if you register.
Patrick Bedard of Car and Driver is one of my favorite writers and he consistantly calls the NHTSA the "Safety [non-permissible content removed]". I used crazy in case the board did not allow [non-permissible content removed]. We will see...
i go to 5 boards already .one day in the past i tryed to register at gill's but could not get it to work . so i never tried again. and at rob's the photos have to be under 90 something or other. you could email then to me and i could make them smaller and post them . his trail run photos load way faster now [ only the loast coast trip for now] he had some nice photos from the trip. theres some good info james put up about what to do when you roll over . it's something to take a look at. it's in the genreal tec.
I think that a woman that works at a pet grooming shop in town has a 97 with the fiberglass sliders. I will stop by next week and see what she thinks of her doors.
Full doors I would think would seal the best, but after seeing the post from Yellowman all I can say is "Ouch". $2500 for the doors and the paint job. Going to put my doors in my motel room if I am ever using my Jeep for personal travel.
I saw a Jeep the other day in town bouncing back and forth between three lanes on a five lane road. They were trying to zip their window up. Glad I got full doors after messing with the zipper windows on my old CJ5.
Another consideration is that the older engine has been around a awhile. "Bulletproof" is the word used by Click and Clack (Cartalk). While the KJ engine seems to be doing just fine, it is a new derivative of the XJ V8. Personally, it seems more like a "truck" engine to me and has a less-refined grunt to it that suits a TJ.
I have been looking into getting a lift kit for my TJ. After I went to the SEMA show I noticed alot of Wranglers with something called Coil Extenders. They are a inexpensive option to a lift kit (or so I have been told). Has anyone had any experiences with the Coil extenders? Pros vs Cons? Thoughts, Ideas?? Looking for advice....
I like the I-6 for its low end torque, and I do mean LOW END. I want good torque at idle RPMS for wheelin'. When I have to stop during a steep climb, I want to be able to take off again without rolling back. With the good old 4.0 L in 4 LO, I can hold the Jeep with the foot brake and ease out the clutch til I feel the Jeep starting to pull, and then let off the brake. I don't even have to get on the gas petal until I am already starting to climb again. I hardly ever roll back more than an a few inches, and most of the time, none at all.
OK, I could use the emergency brake instead of the foot brake, and this would free up my right foot for the gas petal, but the emergency brake only works on the back brakes, so by using the foot brake, I am using the brakes on all four wheels.
i like all the room around the engine. and it just plan works. hey tom i took a nether look at gill's but still just don't like it sorry. the cool thing about rob's is that most of the guys there are from where i live and we can do things together. i'll send you a email later .
lvchef - I'm using 2" coil extenders or spacers and haven't had any problems. I bought mine from Rocky-Road.com in their TJ Budget Lift kit for $110. It also came with bar pin eliminators for your stock shocks which gives you a little more travel and makes for a more generic mount later on.
Installing the lift wasn't the easiest, since you have to take out the coil springs to get the spacers in. I bought a cheap pair of spring compressors for $10 that made the process easier.
The best part is they're cheap. I will probably do a "real" lift in the future, but this enabled me to fit some 33x10.50 BFG MT KM's on right now so I'm happy.
Pete covered what you were looking for on the coil spacers, but I'll throw my 2 cents in...
This past weekend, I was out with some guys and we took a good bit of time looking at how the stock suspension worked and what its limitations were. A coil spacer lift will give you the additional room needed to run larger tires for a small amount of money. Where spring lifts offer an advantage is in the amount of flex you gain, in addition to the height. The guy that was riding shotgun with me is planning on buying a Rubicon next year and was curious to see how the stock suspension did. His experience was more with YJ's and non-Jeep 4wd vehicles. Based on everything we did, the factory suspension stuffs the tires really well up in the fenderwells, but droop is not as good as you'll get with aftermarket springs. With the Procomp springs, tsjay's TJ flexes noticably better than ours does on the stock springs.
This experimentation has definitely helped me decide to wait and spend the money for a spring lift. I'm only running 31" tires and the only rub I get is when disconnected on downhill sections. I can live with the rub I'm getting for now. The terrain we see (typical of what's in those pictures) is a lot of V ditches, rocks and some off camber. Even a couple extra inches of droop would have given me better options on some of the lines I can run. If articulation isn't as critical to the places you want to go, coil spacers are a very cost effective way to be able to run larger tires and gain ground clearance.
""Safety Crazies"??? "Goose-stepping Totalitarian [non-permissible content removed]" is a more apt description of NHTSA..."
LOL on that one!
They should just eliminate the NHTSA. I wonder what their budget is. It would surely help with overall budget to eliminate a few of the alphabet soup agencies. Others? ATF, FBI, IRS, DEA.
Now that DC is bringing their diesel stateside, how about a stretch (five seater) TJ Rubicon with the diesel engine. It's a possibility. Well, maybe not, but it sure would be useful and usable.
If they brought the Dakar or similar over with a diesel engine, it is probably the only thing that would get me to trade in my 1997 Wrangler TJ Sport right now.
I need the help of all my buddies here in Edmunds. I need you guys to email the Forest Service and ask that Turkey Bay be kept open for off roading.
The Forest Service has to come up with a land use plan for all of Land Between the Lakes National Recreation Area, including Turkey Bay OHV Area. LBL used to be administered by TVA, but the Forest Service took over a few years ago. The Forest Service land use plan will be drawn up in the first quarter of 2003.
I'm afraid the tree huggers will try to shut down Turkey Bay as an off roading area. This will be a good time for them to attempt this, while the land use plan is being formulated. I want those of us who love to go off roading in our Jeeps to let our voices be heard in the land use planning activities.
Please email the Forest Service at focuslbl@fs.fed.us
In your email ask them to please keep Turkey Bay open to off roading and ask them to include you on their mailing list for notification of the times and places of public meetings concerning the land use planning. Even if you can't attend the meetings, at least you will be expressing your support for off roading.
These are the same people who insisted on putting wolves back into our state. No one seems to realize there were good reasons for getting rid of them in the first place!
Public meetings to discuss the proposals made no difference and the fact that people who live here opposed it also failed to persuade. In any case, good luck!
I ain't goin' down without a fight! I can't simply sit back and do nothing.
I am not aware of anyone in particular or any group in particular that is threatening Turkey Bay, but I think that it would be a real good idea for those of us who love to "wheel" to get our two cents worth in while the plan is still being formulated. We are losing off roading areas all over the country, so there's no reason to think Turkey Bay is immune to this sort of attempt.
Please, everyone, take a minute to write that email!
Hey, I like wolves - where are they? 20 years tromping around the backwoods in AK and I never saw one. Maybe I could stake a calf out in my front yard?
Now reintroducing grizzlys...I've seen enough of them, thank you very much ;-)
Went by to talk to the woman with the sliding windows. Turns out that she has soft upper doors that have sliding windows. She says that she hates them, because of the noise. She says that she has never had a problem with leaks and such.
Sorry, doesn't answer the question about the fiberglass uppers.
anon02 - Yes, I run 33x10.50 BFG MT/TA KM mounted on the OEM steel full-face 15x7 wheels. No, I do not run disconnected, as my droop is limited by my stock shocks. This droop limit was increased about an inch by the bar-pin eliminators, but there's still another inch or so that I'm not getting because of the stock shocks.
Rubbing. When first mounted, they only rubbed in the front at a full lock turn. I didn't want to adjust the turn-lock stoppers because I still wanted full maneuverability. I bought some 1.25" aluminum wheel spacers for all four. That brought the front tires out just enough to not rub during a full lock turn. I used the wheel spacers on all four for about a month, but didn't like where it put the rear tires. They stuck out just little too far and would hit the top of the fender flare during full compression. I currently have the rear wheel spacers out and the rear tires fit into the wheel well much better now. I should have ordered .75" or 1" wheel spacers for the back. So now if I look close, I can see the front has a little wider track than the rear.
A current gripe I have with my current setup is that the kit didn't come with new (longer) jounce bumpers for the rear. So, it allows a little more compression than it should. When I get it totally compressed to the jounce bumper, the tire just starts to rub on the front of the plastic inner wheel well splash guard.
One of the next things I'd like to replace is the shocks, which would gain me wheel travel (droop). Since I'm getting by just fine with the current config, I'll probably wait a while for those new long-travel shocks.
As a tree hugger first and a Wrangler owner second, let me throw out another thought about Turkey Bay. In the last 5 years or so, things in the woods are moving towards pay to play. A national forest service exec was struck by a lightning bolt of an idea, why let them play for free when we can charge 'em some money. However, not being set up for this new form of commerce, the forest service has decided to contract these things out. They (forest service) sit back and collect their share while the vendors (private firms) are running things.
It doesn't sound like a bad idea. But as recent Wall Street revelations are pointing out, things aren't always on the up and up. And these are public lands we're talking about, owned by you and me.
So maybe the tree huggers will make a run at Turkey Bay. But you'd also better be on the lookout for the mouse from Disney, who is part of the "group" collecting hiking fees in my state. He might make you put Thelma on tracks so you go where you're supposed to according to the corporate blueprint.
The "tree huggers" I refer to are the extremists who think no one should be allowed to even step on forest land.
I don't consider someone a tree hugger just cause they care about the environment. I care about the environment too! I practice "tread lightly." I carry out not only my own garbage, but also that which others have left and I have picked up during my many breaks while wheelin'.
I think certain areas can be set aside for people who enjoy off roading, just as well as some land can be and should be set aside for wilderness.
Wheelin' in most cases, other than rock crawling, I guess, causes some erosion. But if the damage is confined to the area set aside for off roading, and the run off is controlled to avoid silting creeks outside the area, then what's the harm?
Farming, mining, and construction will all contribute far more to the general erosion problem of a region that some small area set aside for wheelin'.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
P.S. I paid $45 for my yearly pass to Turkey Bay, and I would gladly pay more, if the money were to be needed for environmental measures to minimize any negative effects of wheelin.
P.P.S.
I guess I should point out that we are not talking pristine wilderness when we are talking Land Between the Lakes National Recreation Area. The land was once private farm land, and the government bought the land and kicked the farmers out when the dams were constructed and the lakes were created. So, man's footprint is all over the area. There are old out buidings and even old abandoned cars throughout the area. Also, there are old roads and fences, etc.
Man, I don't think the Department of Tourism would be interested in having me do a write up on LBL, if they read my earlier post.
Hey, it's a very nice place, and the old buildings and the abandoned cars are not where the general public would ever see them. It's just that this area WAS private property at one time, but they are letting the land to back to its natural condition to the extent that it will. That's not an overnight process. A lot of the area was wooded, even when there were farms there.
There are plenty of nice attractions at LBL, and the scenery is very pretty. It's a real good place to bring the family.
You have two huge lakes for water related activities and there are camp grounds all over the place. They have horseback riding, a bison and elk range, a planetarium, and old farm that is being run the way it was in the 1850's. So, my apologies to LBL for the comments I made in that earlier post.
Just don't take my wheelin' playground away from me!
It is getting harder and harder to find pretty areas to travel through. California seems to regulate everything to death. Granted, there are state run OHV areas, and the national forests here allow off-roading on established trails in certain areas. The only problem there is that they keep closing areas. Many of the former open desert areas are now closed and some national forests are getting more restrictive.
Also, our local national forests charge for parking (not entry). Lots of complaints about that - I keep buying an annual pass, but gripe about it. On top of that, the local OHV area (Hungry Valley) is state run so you have to pay entry fees for that on top of the national forest parking pass.
There have been all kinds of people that have tried to keep trails open in California, but it hasn't worked all that well. Good luck with Turkey Bay - it sounds like a fun place to visit.
I should have made this point in my original post about Turkey Bay: the Forest Service is NOT our enemy. They are good folks and would not close down TB unless forced to do so by outside pressure.
When you email them, please be polite in your request that TB be kept open. You are not addressing your comments to the ones who would want to see it shut down.
The Forest Service people that are actually on the scene at Turkey Bay are all friends of mine. They are some of the nicest people you would ever meet anywhere. They are willing to work WITH the off roaders to see that the necessary things are done to keep the place open, while minimizing any environmental impact.
Comments
The Liberty drivetrain might be worth the 1 year wait.
Does anybody have any knowledge/opinions about this?
CJR
Most Jeepers would likely agree.
Why is i6 better? The jeep site shows torque equal but the V6 with considerably more hp and slightly better gas mileage (...at least in the Liberty). The V6 is also considerably shorter which should enable them to put in a longer rear driveshaft and improve the angle into the rear differential.
CJR
There might be another option for your doors. All the catalogs seem to show fiberglass uppers for the doors around $700 or so. That is better than the $1500 for the full metal doors. For $1500 I would be looking at a down payment for a different Jeep with mine thrown in to boot.
Here are some of the sites you could check out.
http://performanceproducts.com
http://quadratec.com
http://4wd.com
Still a happy camper.
#7299 of 7364 Off-Road Wrangler Just Got Out Performed by chicagoland Nov 19, 2002 (07:28 pm)
The Porsche Cayenne is taking on all off-road SUVs! Tell me what you think?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#7300 of 7364 There is No Doubt the Wrangler is in Trouble with this SUV! by chicagoland Nov 19, 2002 (07:33 pm)
That's not SPAM?
tidester, host
Incidentally, the total cost for two doors to purchase and have painted was about $2,500.00. I also learned that yellow and red are the two hardest colors to paint-match. Fortunately, mine are a pretty close match - unless you looked really closely and knew they weren't the originals, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference between the doors and the rest of the Jeep.
yellowman
The length and width of the I6 makes it more apt (supposedly) to intrude in to the passenger cabin of the auto in the case of a head on collision.
Likewise a V6 is (Supposedly) less likely to do this since it is shorter and wider.
The Saftey Crazies (NHTSA) are going to ruin all good things eventually.
Go to http://itsajeep.org and click on the photo gallery at the top of the home page. Look at my Turkey Bay album there.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
You don't have to be a member at Gill's to see photos, just to post or edit photos. You can click on the photos to enlarge them, and I think you can even click on them a second time to make them even bigger. Might as well register at Gill's and become a member anyway... it's free.
I might put up some at Rob's, but I think the files are too big for Rob's site, unless he has changed something.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Hey, you're right about having to register in Gill's in order to be able to enlarge pics. It didn't used to be that way, and I'll bet Gill doesn't know it is like that now. Gill was probably fiddling with some stuff and didn't realize that he had changed that. He is out of town right now, but I will let him know about it.
Hey, don't be afraid to register at Gill's. Everything is free there, and you don't get on some stupid mailing list or anything if you register.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Patrick Bedard of Car and Driver is one of my favorite writers and he consistantly calls the NHTSA the "Safety [non-permissible content removed]". I used crazy in case the board did not allow [non-permissible content removed]. We will see...
Full doors I would think would seal the best, but after seeing the post from Yellowman all I can say is "Ouch". $2500 for the doors and the paint job. Going to put my doors in my motel room if I am ever using my Jeep for personal travel.
I saw a Jeep the other day in town bouncing back and forth between three lanes on a five lane road. They were trying to zip their window up. Glad I got full doors after messing with the zipper windows on my old CJ5.
Still a happy camper.
Be assured that had the "N" word been directed at a Town Hall member we wouldn't be "discussing" it! :-)
tidester, host
http://www.4x4books.com/howto.htm
Nothing beats practice though!
-twylie
OK, I could use the emergency brake instead of the foot brake, and this would free up my right foot for the gas petal, but the emergency brake only works on the back brakes, so by using the foot brake, I am using the brakes on all four wheels.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Installing the lift wasn't the easiest, since you have to take out the coil springs to get the spacers in. I bought a cheap pair of spring compressors for $10 that made the process easier.
The best part is they're cheap. I will probably do a "real" lift in the future, but this enabled me to fit some 33x10.50 BFG MT KM's on right now so I'm happy.
Good Luck,
Pete
This past weekend, I was out with some guys and we took a good bit of time looking at how the stock suspension worked and what its limitations were. A coil spacer lift will give you the additional room needed to run larger tires for a small amount of money. Where spring lifts offer an advantage is in the amount of flex you gain, in addition to the height. The guy that was riding shotgun with me is planning on buying a Rubicon next year and was curious to see how the stock suspension did. His experience was more with YJ's and non-Jeep 4wd vehicles. Based on everything we did, the factory suspension stuffs the tires really well up in the fenderwells, but droop is not as good as you'll get with aftermarket springs. With the Procomp springs, tsjay's TJ flexes noticably better than ours does on the stock springs.
some hi-res pics of the trip:
http://www.mangoboy.com/pictures/Anderson/
if those are too slow to load this page has some of the same pictures in smaller jpgeg:
http://www.ewylie.com/jeep/kkoffroad_021123_01.htm
This experimentation has definitely helped me decide to wait and spend the money for a spring lift. I'm only running 31" tires and the only rub I get is when disconnected on downhill sections. I can live with the rub I'm getting for now. The terrain we see (typical of what's in those pictures) is a lot of V ditches, rocks and some off camber. Even a couple extra inches of droop would have given me better options on some of the lines I can run. If articulation isn't as critical to the places you want to go, coil spacers are a very cost effective way to be able to run larger tires and gain ground clearance.
Hope this helps.
-twylie
I have the zippered soft upper halves, and don't get any leaks, so I imagine the hard one is probably better.
LOL on that one!
They should just eliminate the NHTSA. I wonder what their budget is. It would surely help with overall budget to eliminate a few of the alphabet soup agencies. Others? ATF, FBI, IRS, DEA.
Do you rub? Do you disconnect? Everything I have heard is that you need more lift than that to run 33's without rubbing.
Interested in seeing your answers.
The Forest Service has to come up with a land use plan for all of Land Between the Lakes National Recreation Area, including Turkey Bay OHV Area. LBL used to be administered by TVA, but the Forest Service took over a few years ago. The Forest Service land use plan will be drawn up in the first quarter of 2003.
I'm afraid the tree huggers will try to shut down Turkey Bay as an off roading area. This will be a good time for them to attempt this, while the land use plan is being formulated. I want those of us who love to go off roading in our Jeeps to let our voices be heard in the land use planning activities.
Please email the Forest Service at focuslbl@fs.fed.us
In your email ask them to please keep Turkey Bay open to off roading and ask them to include you on their mailing list for notification of the times and places of public meetings concerning the land use planning. Even if you can't attend the meetings, at least you will be expressing your support for off roading.
Thanks
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Public meetings to discuss the proposals made no difference and the fact that people who live here opposed it also failed to persuade. In any case, good luck!
tidester, host
I am not aware of anyone in particular or any group in particular that is threatening Turkey Bay, but I think that it would be a real good idea for those of us who love to "wheel" to get our two cents worth in while the plan is still being formulated. We are losing off roading areas all over the country, so there's no reason to think Turkey Bay is immune to this sort of attempt.
Please, everyone, take a minute to write that email!
Thanks
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Now reintroducing grizzlys...I've seen enough of them, thank you very much ;-)
Steve, Host
Sorry, doesn't answer the question about the fiberglass uppers.
Still a happy camper.
Rubbing. When first mounted, they only rubbed in the front at a full lock turn. I didn't want to adjust the turn-lock stoppers because I still wanted full maneuverability. I bought some 1.25" aluminum wheel spacers for all four. That brought the front tires out just enough to not rub during a full lock turn. I used the wheel spacers on all four for about a month, but didn't like where it put the rear tires. They stuck out just little too far and would hit the top of the fender flare during full compression. I currently have the rear wheel spacers out and the rear tires fit into the wheel well much better now. I should have ordered .75" or 1" wheel spacers for the back. So now if I look close, I can see the front has a little wider track than the rear.
A current gripe I have with my current setup is that the kit didn't come with new (longer) jounce bumpers for the rear. So, it allows a little more compression than it should. When I get it totally compressed to the jounce bumper, the tire just starts to rub on the front of the plastic inner wheel well splash guard.
One of the next things I'd like to replace is the shocks, which would gain me wheel travel (droop). Since I'm getting by just fine with the current config, I'll probably wait a while for those new long-travel shocks.
-Pete
As a tree hugger first and a Wrangler owner second, let me throw out another thought about Turkey Bay. In the last 5 years or so, things in the woods are moving towards pay to play. A national forest service exec was struck by a lightning bolt of an idea, why let them play for free when we can charge 'em some money. However, not being set up for this new form of commerce, the forest service has decided to contract these things out. They (forest service) sit back and collect their share while the vendors (private firms) are running things.
It doesn't sound like a bad idea. But as recent Wall Street revelations are pointing out, things aren't always on the up and up. And these are public lands we're talking about, owned by you and me.
So maybe the tree huggers will make a run at Turkey Bay. But you'd also better be on the lookout for the mouse from Disney, who is part of the "group" collecting hiking fees in my state. He might make you put Thelma on tracks so you go where you're supposed to according to the corporate blueprint.
Gary
I don't consider someone a tree hugger just cause they care about the environment. I care about the environment too! I practice "tread lightly." I carry out not only my own garbage, but also that which others have left and I have picked up during my many breaks while wheelin'.
I think certain areas can be set aside for people who enjoy off roading, just as well as some land can be and should be set aside for wilderness.
Wheelin' in most cases, other than rock crawling, I guess, causes some erosion. But if the damage is confined to the area set aside for off roading, and the run off is controlled to avoid silting creeks outside the area, then what's the harm?
Farming, mining, and construction will all contribute far more to the general erosion problem of a region that some small area set aside for wheelin'.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
P.S. I paid $45 for my yearly pass to Turkey Bay, and I would gladly pay more, if the money were to be needed for environmental measures to minimize any negative effects of wheelin.
P.P.S.
I guess I should point out that we are not talking pristine wilderness when we are talking Land Between the Lakes National Recreation Area. The land was once private farm land, and the government bought the land and kicked the farmers out when the dams were constructed and the lakes were created. So, man's footprint is all over the area. There are old out buidings and even old abandoned cars throughout the area. Also, there are old roads and fences, etc.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Hey, it's a very nice place, and the old buildings and the abandoned cars are not where the general public would ever see them. It's just that this area WAS private property at one time, but they are letting the land to back to its natural condition to the extent that it will. That's not an overnight process. A lot of the area was wooded, even when there were farms there.
There are plenty of nice attractions at LBL, and the scenery is very pretty. It's a real good place to bring the family.
You have two huge lakes for water related activities and there are camp grounds all over the place. They have horseback riding, a bison and elk range, a planetarium, and old farm that is being run the way it was in the 1850's. So, my apologies to LBL for the comments I made in that earlier post.
Just don't take my wheelin' playground away from me!
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Also, our local national forests charge for parking (not entry). Lots of complaints about that - I keep buying an annual pass, but gripe about it. On top of that, the local OHV area (Hungry Valley) is state run so you have to pay entry fees for that on top of the national forest parking pass.
There have been all kinds of people that have tried to keep trails open in California, but it hasn't worked all that well. Good luck with Turkey Bay - it sounds like a fun place to visit.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
When you email them, please be polite in your request that TB be kept open. You are not addressing your comments to the ones who would want to see it shut down.
The Forest Service people that are actually on the scene at Turkey Bay are all friends of mine. They are some of the nicest people you would ever meet anywhere. They are willing to work WITH the off roaders to see that the necessary things are done to keep the place open, while minimizing any environmental impact.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?