Jeep Wrangler

stever · August 2003

Maybe they all went to Alaska on the Jeep? (Anchorage Daily News).

Early Labor Day and school starting up must have people distracted from the forums.

Steve, Host

tsjay · August 2003

Jeep Buds, there's a story that needs to be told and retold across our country. It is the story of the former inhabitants of the LBL area. These were the "People Between the Rivers." They were lied to, cheated, and run off of their land in the cruelest manner you can imagine.

I was unaware of their story until this past Saturday, when I attended a meeting at LBL concerning the new land resource management plan that is being formulated. My interest, of course, was to add my voice to those of the other people who are in favor of maintaining off roading at Turkey Bay as a legitimate use of LBL.

There was a representative of another faction there, however, "The People Between the Rivers." They are neither for nor against off roading. They have other concerns: namely, retaining their access to their family cemeteries, the maintaining of the status of LBL as a non-commercial national recreation area, and the reclaiming of their honorable heritage. (In TVA's propaganda campaign, they were portrayed as backward, ignorant, impoverished people who were too stupid to realize that they were being "rescued" from their plight by the U.S. Government. As a result of this, they were branded, and when they relocated outside of their former territory, they were looked down upon.)

They are not asking for their land back, but they would at least like to see the original promises as to how the land would be used kept, and they would like to get the record set straight as to who they were.

I will continue to enjoy Turkey Bay and the other parts of LBL, but I will never again be able to do so without thinking about these people.

Please do old Tom a favor and read the article I am posting this link to.

http://newmedia.colorado.edu/~socwomen/myturn7.html

I can understand that private land must be taken sometimes for the common good. The dams provided cheap electricity, flood control, and improved commercial navigation. But, I am having trouble with the taking of land just to establish a recreation area, even though I dearly love LBL. I also deplore the tactics used by TVA!

Thanks, Buds, for reading this post. Hope you will also read the tragic story in the link.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

stever · August 2003

Being a river canoer in the Southeast at one time, I've grumbled at TVA a lot myself (remember the Snail Darter & Tellico Dam? - what a waste). Cades Cove in the Smokies is a similar story, although that was the Park Service.

Now my brother works for TVA so I get to grumble in person :-)

Steve, Host

tsjay · August 2003

Regardless of how one feels about dams, the tragedy here was that the last time these people's land was taken it was for a recreation area. Now, I LOVE LBL, but there's no way that I would have agreed to its creation, when it meant taking the land from its rightful owners, especially since some of them were being evicted from their homes for the third or fourth time.

And even worse than the fact that their land was taken was the WAY it was taken.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

stever · August 2003

Just like Cades Cove.

Just like all the farmers whose fields are under Tellico Lake now too, come to think of it (they moved the cemeteries). TVA thought bass fishing was a better recreation than trout fishing I guess.

Now you done got my blood pressure up all over again ;-)

Steve, Host

tsjay · August 2003

It is truly a sad story, but it needs to be told. I hope everyone will read David Nickell's article that I posted the link to.

There's nothing that can be done now to reverse what has been done, but we can help the People Between the Rivers by acknowledging them for who they really were, and not thinking of them the way they were portrayed by TVA.

I love this country, and there is nowhere else on the face of this earth that I would want to live, but sometimes our government does things that are just plain WRONG and are against the very principles that this nation was founded upon. This was one of those times. And the victims this time were the descendants of people who were awarded land for their service in the war that gave birth to our nation!

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

drosketer · August 2003

Well, it seems that the spec. sheet that you can download from the Canadian Jeep site does show the SE model, but you can't build one on the site. Strange stuff.
I saw a Apex edition Jeep sitting on a lot here but haven't had a chance to look at it up close. How did DC differentiate that edition from, say, the Sport or any other model?

Andrew

01r1 · August 2003

Thanks for the link. Good read, sad story.

mac24 · August 2003

From memory, the Apex was an X variant with hood graphics, chrome wheels and in my opinion, some truly nasty seats.

tsjay · August 2003

I hope to wheel both Saturday and Sunday at Turkey Bay (why are you guys not surprised?).

Anyone else got wheelin' plans, and, if so, where?

Pete, you gonna get out in those beautiful mountains with your Jeep this weekend?

Where will you be doin' your wheelin', Bama?

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

01r1 · August 2003

Yes, I'll be wheelin' in the mountains this weekend. I will try to set up camp above the 5000ft mark and hopefully get a little cleaner air for checking out Mars.

I'm heading out tonight with the telescope, but just in the hills around town. The last couple of nights there's been too much moisture and light pollution in the air to get any real good pictures of Mars.

Nothing like being in a Jeep, under the stars on a warm summer night with the top down.

-Pete

mtngal · August 2003

I'm going to be going through Wrangler withdrawal soon, I think. I won't be able to go 'wheeling for the next couple of weekends.

Mars is really something! I've been admiring it every morning when I get up. I can't believe how bright it is, and yes, it is better up in the mountains - something that is very noticeable as I head to work and the lower, more light polluted, city.

tidester · August 2003

yes, it is better up in the mountains...

Absolutely! Not only is there less light pollution there is also less atmosphere. Mountain stargazing may be yet another good reason for owning a Wrangler!

tidester, host

erickpl · August 2003

I live at 4200 feet, so I get a nice clear view...

all I have to do is walk out onto my deck and take a look see.

-Paul

erickpl · August 2003

The lights on our climate controls for our Wrangler are out. The dealer said they had bulbs to fix the lighting. (The rest of the dash is just fine). Anybody know how to get into the climate control box and swap the bulbs?

Any pointers would be great. I have the Haynes manual but it doesn't cover that.

-Paul

mtngal · August 2003

I noticed you are on the same coast I am - are you north or south? I live just under 6,000 feet in SoCal, (though most SoCal people don't think my area belongs to SoCal) and yes, it is wonderful to wake up and look out the window at Mars. I couldn't believe how much of a red tint it really has!

I can't help you with your bulb problem - be glad it is that and not the '98 dash gauge problem!

erickpl · August 2003

I work at Edwards AFB and live up in Tehachapi... so I guess I'm borderline no/soCal.

I just got back from a week of Boy Scout camp up at Huntington Lake (NE of Fresno). MAN are there a lot of off road areas up there. I saw so many Jeeps and other off roaders, that I wanted to take the BMW X5 I was driving and go have some fun... but it wasn't mine. But the Waverunners looked like more fun.

There are quite a few trails out here in the desert (Rosamond / Lancaster) area where you can get some good climbing in, and I've taken my JGC up there a couple of times, but don't tell the wife.

-Paul

mac24 · August 2003

From memory, unsnap the instrument panel top strip. Remove the screws on either side of the oddment tray. Remove the ashtray, then remove the screw behind it. You should now be able to unsnap the entire piece of plastic that shrouds the vents, radio, HVAC controls, switches and ashtray. Once this is removed the screws holding the HVAC controls can be removed and it can be drawn forward.

The above should be correct but I really recommend you get a FSM or subscribe to AllData.

mtngal · August 2003

As mountain areas go, we're practically neighbors - we live in the same basically unnamed mountain range!

There are lots of trails around Frazier Park/Lockwood valley. Hungry Valley OHV area near Gorman is mostly motorcycles but there are some trails for 4x4s. I'd like to explore Red Rock Canyon this winter - I haven't been there yet, though I did go across Jawbone Canyon into Lake Isabella. Easy dirt road - the hardest thing is navigating in the national forest, since half the roads aren't indicated on the map! Of course, none of this compares with the Sierras. I've explored a couple of trails not far from Bass Lake, but not around Huntington Lake. I'll be heading for Lake Tahoe in July next year (was there this spring but too early to do much off-roading) and can't wait!

bamatazz · August 2003

Tom,
You know this is a holiday weekend. I will be doin my wheelin at work, Bar-B-Que'ing for the masses. Trying to take some PEAKS of my CRIMSON TIDE VS USF then AUBURN VS USC.
ITS football TIME!

Good Article TOM, makes ya think doenst it.

ROLL TIDE
BAMA

gvlng · August 2003

Finally bought a Jeep. 2003 X Auto Trans. Beautiful shale green. Three days after bringing it home I was putting on side steps and noticed leaking from the Trans. area. Dealer has Converter and Trans. Pump on order. Anyone else had this problem with their new Jeep? Should I be worried about driving it until it's fixed? Dealer says it's OK to drive while waiting for parts. They are on back order. I'm chomping at the bit to take it out for a drive in the mountains but don't feel confident with that leak. Help!

tsjay · August 2003

I would be afraid to drive it a lot, if it were mine. At the very least, you should keep close track of the fluid level in that tranny.

Is this Jeep your daily driver?

Mac, we need your input here.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

P.S.

Ooops! Forgot to say "Hi" and "Welcome." So, here goes... Hi! Welcome!

One more thing, if you drive the Jeep and cause tranny damage, then DC will probably try to say that they are not responsible, since you drove it low on fluid or something. I would get it IN WRITING from the dealer, if they say it's OK to drive it.

01r1 · August 2003

Welcome! I wouldn't drive it, other than back to the dealer for a loaner while you parts come in. If that fluid level drops you'll start over heating the tranny at first, then it'll be inoperative all together after the level drops more. Don't put the added heat stress on your new Wrangler, play it safe!

Demand a loaner Jeep equal or better than yours until the parts come in. This will keep them on the ball as far as getting the parts ASAP.

Once it's fixed, go out and have some fun in your new Wrangler! Then come back here and tell us all about it

-Pete

mac24 · August 2003

No, you don't have a big problem, the dealer is fixing it under warranty. However, your transmission is a new model, and as is usually the case, the first customers help work out the bugs. The converter and pump are on back order because they're needed to fix an emerging hard shifting problem and demand has far exceeded supply. I haven't heard of leaks being a common problem though.

As was previously said, just drive it to the dealer's to pick up a loaner.

Being cynical by nature (and having 20/20 hindsight), I never buy the first model of anything!!!

;-)

erickpl · August 2003

I can get the control system out just fine. But once I have it out, I'm not sure how to open it up to get to the bulbs. In searching around the net, I noticed the JGC bulbs for the climate controls are soldered to the system... I just hope it isn't the same for the Wrangler.

-Paul

mac24 · August 2003

I don't know, and didn't even know that you could get the bulbs from a dealer until you posted it. However, before disassembling the controls I'd do a careful check to see that it wasn't a wiring fault.

arizonajoe · August 2003

Does anyone know what's in store for the 2004 model? Is the old 4.0L going away in favor of the Liberty engine finally?

Joe

twylie · August 2003

From what I've seen, the 4.0 remains for the 2004 model year. You can check Jeep.com as they now have the new model year info available in the "build your Jeep" area.

-twylie

gvlng · August 2003

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll keep you posted re: converter/tranny problem. It's a relief to know that the leaking is not a common defect with the Jeep.

embeeduece · August 2003

I've been reading some old posts, and I'm stilln ot clear if the advertising cost is something that should or should not be paid. I'm ordering a 2004 Sport.

1) The offer from the dealer is $100 over invoice.
2) CA already has a $205 surcharge in the base, 19675.
3) Total, incl. options, gas, nat'l advertising, and loyalty mailing (guessing that's the regional ad) is $23,380. Add $100, and the grand total is $23,480.
4) What else can I expect when I go in to finance?

Thanks.

tsjay · August 2003

Mike:

Yes, Ad fees are a legitimate cost to the dealers. Edmunds does not include them when they give invoice prices, since the ad fees vary by region. (At least they didn't used to include them).

The ad fees are line item costs listed on the invoice. There are actually two ad fees: a national ad fee, and a regional ad fee. They each appear on their own separate lines on the invoice. I think the two of them together were about $300 on Thelma Jane. Wish I could find my copy of the invoice, but it seems like it was just under $300, maybe $280.

I would insist on seeing the invoice, Mike, just to "keep them honest." I don't know all the goodies that you are getting, but I got Thelma Jane for $200 over invoice, and that meant I paid about $22,100 for her. On top of that, I had to pay sales tax, title and license fee, and the dealer's "service fee." The service fee is called different things by the various dealers, but it is just a way to add profit to the sale. They say it covers their administrative costs in doing the paper work for the sale. (Yeah, right!)

Hope this helps ya out.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

embeeduece · August 2003

Thanks, Tom. I'm on my way to the dealer now. We'll see how it goes.

Later, I have a great story about another dealer I was working with.

-Mike

tsjay · August 2003

Mike:

Didn't know any car dealers were open on Sunday. Don't think any of them around here are open on Sundays.

Anyway, whatcha gettin'??? Give us all the details, even if you did before, cause you might have changed your mind or something.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

imadrone · August 2003

Howdy. First time poster just back from a week Jeeping with a buddy in central and western Nevada, and the Eastern Sierra. Found that little 1997 4 banger to have been quite adequate on a wide variety of rough terrain, and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. He has put over 55k trouble-free miles on the little beast, and it still purrs along beautifully, and is a blast to drive. I live in far northern CA (Redding), spend a lot of time skiing, backpacking, mountain biking, etc., and can't believe I've never considered a Wrangler before. Plan to purchase new in 2-3 years (thanks to Edmunds, honey and I on our way to Munich Oct. 15 to pick up new BMW, so must delay the gratification of another new vehicle for a while). Since I am just in the preliminary research stage and have plenty of time prior to purchase, I would love to have the seasoned advice of you veteran Jeep people out there to assist me in making a prudent decision. Primary decision is 4 vs 6 cylinder, and with the HP increase from 120 to 147 in the 4, I am inclined to believe that the 4 will more than meet my needs. Soft top also seems adequate in this mild climate. Options on the Jeep seem quite inexpensive (especially compared with BMW!)and looks as though a lot can be added for 2-3K. Any thoughts for this neophyte, aspiring 4-wheeler will be most welcome. Thanks

Richard

tsjay · August 2003

Welcome!

Wow! You mean people really plan vehicle purchases two to three years in advance? Man, before I found the "perfect vehicle," my Jeep, of course, I would have traded at least twice in the two to three year period. Think that could be why I was $8000 upside down on trade-in when I got the Jeep?

Richard, one thing to watch out for is the "death" of true Wranglers. With government regulations and what not, the Jeep Wrangler as we know it today could give way to some sissy thing in two or three years. Lord, I hope not, but it COULD happen.

You are certainly on the right track by thinking "Jeep," especially since you seem to be an outdoorsman. I can't believe I didn't think of Jeeps before I finally did either. What a waste of years!

There is a WORLD of difference in the power between the 4.0 and the four bangers, or at least there was before the increased horsepower in the new four banger. I have heard from people that have driven the new four bangers that there is still not enough power. They are fine for off roading and for around town, but in hills or mountains out on the highway, they just don't have the power that's needed.

Since you have so much time before your purchase, Richard, I suggest you go back and read LOTS of the posts in here. Since you are interested in Jeeps, I think you will find the reading enjoyable.

After reading the posts, you may have specific questions that we can help ya with. Ask away! We love to talk Jeep here.

Glad you stopped by, and I hope you will stick around. We're always glad to add to our family here.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

div2 · August 2003

Welcome! I've been playing with BMWs for twenty years, and I just bought my first Wrangler(a 1999 Sahara) a little over a year ago. I have been pleasantly surprised by the Jeep's on and off road prowess. If I was buying a new one I would definitely get either a Sport or Sahara with the 4.0, manual transmission, and the Dana 44 rear axle with disc brakes at all four corners. I have the soft top and I've found that the heater and A/C can cope with temperatures ranging from -0F to 100+F. The new four speed autobox is an improvement over the ancient three speed, but it's suffering from some teething problems at present. By the time you are in the market they should all be sorted out. Needless to say, if I had the $$$ I'd spring for a Rubicon- even though that model is probably overkill for all but the most hardcore off-roaders..

imadrone · August 2003

tsjay: Yeah,I try to plan ahead, and keep cars a long time. My old '68 Volvo 122s wagon remains the best car I've ever owned, and I drove the pristine '68 Mercedes 280 SE up to Mt. Shasta today with my Dad and son. Wife has an immaculate '83 BMW 320i. And, I WALK to work. How's that for overkill? But the old cars cost little to insure or register, and selling either the Benz or Volvo would be like having your trusty hound put to sleep because you got a new puppy. I'm certain that to you, Thelma Jane is far more than an inanimate object and that you two have bonded. I'll look forward to your experience and insights. And belated congratulations on the award...

Div2: I do recognize your screen name from researching the BMW board for the past 6 months. Appreciate that you will be a resource for both the ultimate driving and off road machines. Will definitely rethink 2.4L vs. 4.0L

Richard

dcohen01 · August 2003

Just found your board here while working thru the new car purchase sweats...we scratched a check today on an '03 Sport, with all the goodies and the tube bumpers and steps. Out the door price, with givebacks was $22200.00, plus DC's cheap finance. Tysons Jeep needs to run the paperwork and prep it, any last words, cautions before we sign on the dotted line. I'm moving from an Expedition and know what I lose in ride and comfort I get back as a 4 wheel Motorcycle that hold the family...Hows my deal? Inventory around town was low, and this is the Intense Blue with a soft top..

dc

embeeduece · August 2003

So here's what happened at the dealer. I had my $100-over-invoice offer for a 2004 Sport in hand. After the usual harranguing, we were all set to seal the deal, when they told me my APR would be 5.9. Seriously, is anybody paying 5.9 these days?

First, I have good credit and a good income. Second, no one had my option list in stock on a 2003 in all of So Cal. Some folks in this group have had good luck special ordering, so that's what I wanted to do. But this dealer said the incentive financing (1.9/2.9/3.9) was not applicable to a jeep not currently on the lot. I would have to pay 5.9, or whatever the rate happened to be when the jeep showed up. (APR roulette?)

So I walked out. And they let me. Next steps: Call the Fleet Manager that made me the offer, and see if she'll give me a better rate. Or, go to my credit union and get financed thru them (4.24 I think).

Any thoughts, especially from those of you who special ordered would be appreciated.

tsjay · September 2003

Arrange your own financing, if the dealer can't get you as good a rate as you can get on your own.

I don't think there is a thing wrong with the deal they are giving you, if you can buy for $100 over invoice.

What incentives, if any, apply on the factory ordered 04's now? I know there is a $1000 rebate on the left over 03's, but I am not aware of anything on the 04's. Man, last I heard, the new 04 Grand Cherokees have a $3000 rebate on them, but I didn't see anything on the 04 Wranglers.

Mike, whup a list on us of the options you are going to get, if ya don't mind. You know how excited I get when someone buys a new Jeep. I love to hear ALL the details.

Good luck, Mike!

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

tsjay · September 2003

You got that right! Thelma Jane is much more to me than an inanimate object: she's my best friend, next to Ross Allen, of course.

Well, it's gonna be nice having you around as your clock ticks down to purchase time. Man, by then you should have a LOT of info and be able to make a very wise decision. It was fortunate for me that I couldn't afford to trade as soon as the "Wrangler Fever" bug hit me, cause I knew zilch about Jeeps, except that I wanted one so bad I couldn't see straight. I would have ended up with options (or lack thereof) that would not have been appropriate, if I had bought before learning something about Jeeps.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

tsjay · September 2003

Welcome! Those are some pretty cool initials for this forum.

Dc, no way we can tell ya about your deal, since we don't know all the particulars, but here's what you should check out... How much are you paying in relation to invoice on that Jeep? If you are getting the Jeep for invoice plus or minus a couple hundred bucks, with the $1000 rebate going to YOU (so that you are actually getting the Jeep for $800 to $1200 BELOW invoice), then you are getting a good deal.

If you are going to do any offroading, then you might want to have them take the steps off and credit you for them. Guess you could just get them and take them off yourself before hitting the trails (they get ripped off in no time on the trails, and they cause damage to the rocker panels when that happens). Maybe you are not planning on wheelin' that Jeep, and that's fine, but if you go offroad, do yourself a favor and take those steps off first.

Congrats on getting the Jeep, and post some pics when you pick it up! Be sure and post about your initial impressions of your Jeep. Nothin' in the world like a Jeep!

Let us know if you need anyting else.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

tsjay · September 2003

Shoot, missed your post! I was just reviewing the last several posts, and I realized that I didn't say "hi" and "welcome" you. Sorry 'bout that.

I like to make new folks feel welcome and encourage them to stick around.

So, do you feel welcomed and encouraged?

Seriously, please stick around and join the family.

I don't have any info in regard to your question, but I just wanted to say hi.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

bcs96 · September 2003

First time poster. I just bought a Wrangler last week, and I love it. I did notice one thing this past weekend that I hope someone can help me with. We had some rain in our area, and I noticed that water seeps through the soft top's seams. Is this normal? It is not dripping, but the rainwater did stain the inside of the soft top about two to three inches on both sides of the seam. The seam in question is located at the very rear of the top. I believe the seam is along the 3 bow (if I remember the nomenclature from the dealer-provided VHS tape correctly).

I don't know if I have a defective seam, which requires my complaining to the dealer, or if this is to be expected.

Notwithstanding the leak issue, I am really enjoying the Wrangler. I cannot help but wonder why everyone doesn't drive a Wrangler.

David

mac24 · September 2003

You don't say if this Jeep is brand new, or just new to you. If it's brand new, then no, of course it shouldn't leak. It's a straight forward warranty problem.

However, if it's several years old than it wouldn't be surprising if it leaked a little, especially at the seams. If you have a warranty from the dealer it would be reasonable to expect him to fix it in some way, although you probably won't get a new top.

bcs96 · September 2003

Sorry. It is brand new.

Thanks for the help.

mac24 · September 2003

You're welcome!

Be sure to post the resolution to this. It's always good to know how these things turn out.

tsjay · September 2003

Welcome to this board! Hope ya get yer leak fixed.

Please make yourself at home here and become a regular.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

tsjay · September 2003

Mac 24, I was going back through some old posts in here, and I see that you were here way back when I got my BFG All Terrains in June of 01. That was Thelma Jane's first "mod." How long HAVE you been coming here???

Guess I got started in the summer of 2000, when it was called Wrangler IV or something like that. I was in the middle of Wrangler Fever back then, and didn't actually order Thelma Jane until November of 2000. Were you already one of the gang back then?

Sure glad we got ya for your good technical info!

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

geepers · September 2003

Bestop recommends sealing the seams, even on their new tops, to prevent water leaking in. I did have a factory soft top for about five years and never had any trouble, even living in Seattle. Didn't seal the seams on that one. As you probably figured out a seam is just a bunch of holes poked in your top and filled with thread. Sometimes the water can leak in there.

Jeep Wrangler

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