Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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FIAT REDUX
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Gotta love it....I haven't seen it for a while,but last time I did it was on fire as I recall. Or maybe just overheating. It's been a while, they are pretty scarce on the raod these days.
Enjoy the fall,
Hal
faulkner@commandnet.net
We've been toying with the idea of getting a used roadster as a third car for the past few months. Being a "responsible consumer", we naturally took a look at the Miata and liked it well enough, but they're just so "commonplace" (may I be that snotty in my first post here?).
Anyway, I just found an add in my company's classifieds for an '82 Fiat X1/9. I never considered the car before as I was focused on being responsible... I think I've had just about enough of that.
So now I'm looking at this:
http://www.x1-9ownersclub.org.uk/monthly/2000/07.html
and I'm thinking the asking price of $1,600 isn't a bad entry fee to the world of Italian motoring. I'm not old enough to have fond memories of these cars, but I'm perfectly willing to give up A/C, cruise control, and other stuff for a (near) classic. The problem is, I don't know the first thing about them. Wanna know something about the S2000, I'm your man, but I don't know anything about older cars. I've been under the bonnet of an MGB or two, but not long enough to become well acquainted. The truth is, the sum of my mechanical experience adds up to basic maintenance. I don't mind learning or even paying for maintenance, but the thing has got to run. How far in-over-my-head am I getting?
1. The newest models, made by (and often called) BERTONE are the best.
2. They are SLOW
3. They are built with materials left over from Italian TV dinner trays.
4. They will never be worth snot in the collector car market.
THAT BEING SAID AND FULLY ACCEPTED BY YOU....
1. They are ridiculously cheap for the fun you can have.
2. They handle great and the targa top design is very clever and easy.
3. Parts are pretty cheap and most are available.
OTHER CONSIDERATIONS THAT MAY OR MAY NOT APPLY:
1. They can be tough to work on in certain areas (e.g. water pump, 7 hours labor). For this reason, joining the club is almost essential.
2. They are TIGHT inside for large people.
I'd say that if you found a very very clean, later 80s model for CHEAP, and you are handy, go for it; otherwise try a Fiat 124--it's an overall better car but not quite as interesting, OR better yet, an Alfa Spyder, 1982 on up, which is 5 times better than either of them.
Acceleration isn't a big deal with me. My daily driver is a Honda CR-V if that puts the issue in perspective. And I'm not looking to make a profit on restoring it. I'm looking for an introduction to open top motoring that'll teach me the ropes and tell me whether or not I should eventually put down some real cash for a more "responsible" roadster.
So far I've gathered that Bertone took over final assembly in '82. Dunno if that's the model year or the actual date. I think it should have FI instead of the carb. I'd actually prefer the carb as that would be easier for me to fix.
I'm going to see the car tomorrow night. The owner tells me it was restored by a car nut who has worked with a bunch of small roadsters and coupes. She has all of his records and a few extra spare parts. She also thinks that he was the car's second owner. Minor tlc required. The engine is reputed to be in proper working order and the interior is in good shape. It's the original color (red #171) with a second paint job. Only a few minor rust spots, but the car has sat unloved and unmoved for a while.
The "unmoved for a while" bothers me as I'm told that this isn't good for the transmission.
I'm still on the fence. Maybe I'll make an almost silly low offer and walk away if she doesn't take it. I'm not in love with the car yet, merely intrigued.
Thanks again.
Hal
Good Luck,
Hal
Just in case someone else sees this and is interested... The car did require some tlc. There were more rust spots than I was hoping to see, but all of them were small and hadn't penetrated deep into the metal. It was a fuel injected model, but, since I couldn't get past the doors, I never turned the key to hear the engine. Brake hardware was good, but the shocks were fading.
I think that the asking price of $1,600 was more than I'd have paid, but $1,100 would've been fair. Of course, I really have no idea what I talking about when it comes to this car...
So now I have "the bug". Are the 124 Spider's any roomier? If so, how much does one in reasonable condition go for? And how hard are they to come by?
Thanks. You guys are great!
They are plentiful, but you have to sort through a lot of junk to find a good one. The problem, like with MGBs and other "budget" sportscars of the 60s and 70s, is that the cars fell into the hands of people who did not have the resources to care for them (unlike say old Porsches, which usually went to more affluent, or more "gearhead" types).
Anyway, that being said, decent 124s run from I'd say $3,500 on up for a very solid car that does not need major work and looks quite good. $5,000 should buy you a beauty and $7,500 a show winner.
A decent-running but perhaps a bit tatty vehicle (a #4) in the low $2,000. Probably anything under $1,500 is junk.
FIAT X1/9--from how you describe it, I'd say about $300 is more like it. Rust is a big no-no on these cars, and top dollar is around $3,000. There is only one way to buy an X1/9 in my book--and that is in tip-top shape. Start right and you'll always be right with the car.
Sounds like I'd be in the $3,500 to $5,000 range for the 124. That's not bad, but it'll have to wait. She Who Cooks wants a TL and I can't infringe on her downpayment fund too much. The X1/9 was only in consideration because it was cheap and therefore not a big problem if it was only temporary.
Shifty's got the price thing pegged pretty good. I flew to NC and bought the 82 spider we've got and gave about $200-$400 more than I really wanted to. BUT, I got a very solid, almost rust free car with a solid power plant, good transmission, excellent wheels and tires, good brakes, etc, etc, so I'm not complaining. Prices on most parts are very reasonable and obtainable, some are not. I am astounded daily by the number of parts that appear EVERY DAY on e-bay for Fiats! You'll just have to try one on for size. But if it's leg room you are seeking in a semi-exotic, check out '73--'75 Jensen Healey. They've got more leg room for a sports car than anything this side of a Jag. It too has a dohc engine and "distinctive" styling. Check my JH dedicated page out at www.commandnet.net/hal They're really fun cars, regardless of what Shifty says!
Good Luck!
Hal
What really killed the JH and the Fiat was not that they were so bad, but the competition from the MGB, which was cheaper than either and had a reputation for being more reliable, too. This is why the B holds the higher value today as well I think.
I hope the 124 makes a strong comeback in the collectible car market so that these cars will be saved. I especially liked the 124 coupe, which is very rare today...I hardly see them anymore.
Yes, the MGB is more popular and an excellent little sports car (I wish I had a good chrome bumper one), but when compared to either the Fiat or the JH, comes off as being much "older" than either of them.
As you might can tell, I've really fallen for the Fiat. It's been a joy to drive and fool with. I hope it continues to be....
Enjoy,
Hal
Do you have an idea how that compares to the MGB? It's first year was what, '63? And production ended in 1980? How many were built and how many came to the US?
Hal
Parts for MG, Fiat and Alfa are all readily available, with MGB the best, Alfa close behind, and Fiat more of a chore for parts.
I don't think you'd find much of a Triumph for $5,000....the TR6s would be shabby at that price, and the TR3s and 4s even worse. You can find all the Tr7s you want, but who wants one? Terrible car. TR8s cost a bit more. If you could switch to a coupe, you could try an MGB GT or a Datsun 240Z, both fun, solid cars at around $5K for a decent driver.
You've been responding to majariwr's post #78 question about an MG Midget vs. a Fiat 124 Spyder with comments about an MGB. Having owned both new, I agree that the Spyder would be the better bet, but both are infinitely superior to the MG Midget or its clone the Austin Sprint (Spriget).
The big thing to watch out for in a used 124 is neglect, and after that, more neglect. These cars, being inexpensive, have often fallen into the hands of people who could ill afford to take care of them, or who took them to mechanics who hadn't a clue what they were doing. If you see duct tape, spray paint, an oily engine and slip covers from WalMart, you know what kind of" mechanic" you're dealing with!
I'm not claiming any kind of mechanical expertise, but my Alfa is clean inside, outside, underneath and on top, and there's not a Mickey Mouse part on it. It's the kind of car you want to buy as soon as you see it.....heck, I did.
You don't want to play "catch-up" on a Fiat 124....start off ahead with a clean, tight car.
Mr. Shiftright
Host
Well said. I totally agree with your post #84, except for your concerns about the 124's "rubber-band driveline". Frankly, it's been about a quarter of a century since I last drove my Spyder but I don't recall having ever observed the condition that you describe. I loved (almost)every minute's use of that car. A new bride, and the need to have a useable rear seat to carry her parents around in, was my only reason for replacing it with one of the first VW Rabbits off the boat.
Mr. Shiftright
Host
It must be a bad case of CRS. I simply cannot recall having experienced the 124 Spyder condition that you've described. Even after having then migrated from my '64 and '66 MGBs. Perhaps I just didn't know any better.
For $4,000, it should be a very nice car, yes. Accuracy is not so important, as the car is not a strong collectible, but anything that was done should be well done....if these little cars don't look good, they aren't worth much....but little by little, they will creep up in value, once their Big Brothers, the MGB, becomes more scarce and more valuable (another 5 years?)
Midgets are fun, and parts are plentiful.
Mr. Shiftright
Host
The Fiats are fun, too, but they are a softer, quieter car...much more civilized than the Midget, which has a definite 50s feel to it.
Midgets aren't that easy to sell, so I'm not surprised he's ready to bargain. I had a '67 Sprite (same basic car as the Midget) that was tweaked a bit and that car still remains in my memory as one of the most enjoyable pure sports car experiences I ever had. You don't get that kind of gut-level mechanical thrill in modern cars.
E-mail me for any further details, I can help with....
Hal (Spring, where ARE you!!!)
You can't beat the parts support and the escalating value of the MGB though...you can buy ANY part for an MGB, and they are currently worth 2-3 times a Fiat 124. So the Fiat is all the more the bargain but less the "investment".
Later,
Hal
SEAT (Sociedad Española de Automóviles de Turismos - Spanish Motor Cars Company) belonged a 10% to FIAT, and they sent all the machines to Spain to make "clones" of the FIAT models under the SEAT brand, for instance the 850 spider. In 1979, FIAT left SEAT due to financial problems and the spanish brand passed to the Government hands until they sold it to VW.
SEAT cars are exactly the same as FIAT's, in some cases much better, since in the 70s, Spain was under a right-wing dictatorship and they didn't import russian steel, which made cars from that age so rust-friendly. Instead, they used spanish made steel with american-imported technology of the 50s. You can still see thousands of SEATs from that age as daily drivers on the roads, even with more than 100,000 miles on the odometer. Also, some of the parts were made by third companies all around Europe and are exactly the same.
However, I agree completely on the dealer issues, since SEAT has coped always more than the 25% of spanish market and the mechanics have always been taught here with Renaul and SEAT engines, which are easy to understand, to maintain and to repair. So all mechanics here know how to repair a SEAT properly.
Just one more word about SEAT. One of the most reliable engines ever made by FIAT, the 1.1 fire, which powers the Panda, Palio (made in Brazil) and Punto was an original SEAT design derived from the 850's, which had originally a displacement of 903cc (less than 1 liter) created by SEAT engineers in 1969 for the FIAT (SEAT) 127. With such a little engine in that car, you can still reach 85mph, do a 0-60 mph in 14 seconds and get 40mpg.
In the 80s, FIAT earned a very very bad reputation due to lack of quality on their products, since they had to compete in a bad market, with very high gas prices and so they made things cheaper. Compared to the realibitly of french and german makes (including GM's Opel), Fiat had little to do, specially with the worst diesel car engines you could find in the market (and in Europe, 45% of the cars are diesel-powered due to gas prices). Recently, however, Fiat has improved a lot. They created new factories and have created at least a decent counterpart agains the Golf, Focus.. which is the average car an european drives.
A final word about SEAT: Now they build VW-powered cars, sharing lots of parts with them. Thus, the popular Ibiza and León/Toledo, have the same engines the Golf has (1.4, 1.6, 1.8, 2.0 and TDI's) and cost a 33% less than a VW, which is considered an entry-luxury brand.
Of course, this is ancient history by now!
Thanks,
Hal
I THINK, Hal, that the Siata Spring (Siata was an Italian company from Turin) was based on the Fiat 850...it had a front grille but was rear-engined (a high point in automotive design?), with a rather intimidating 35/65 front/rear weight bias.
Some folks find them cute, in a deformed troll sort of way. Car and Driver described it thusly:
"a toy, an autonotive aberration, a plaything" and "$1.995 worth of campiness".