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  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    edited December 2013

    It's interesting. . .

    to relate Mark's posts to the economy. He had to slum it for a few years with an Asian vehicle, but now things are back to normal.

    Another factor is post length. The long ones happen when things are flush. Old-timers will recall the previous good times.

    I'll leave it to others to develop the precise algorithm, but I've got mine in my head. The good news is that the economy is recovering, slower than anyone would have thought possible, but recovering all the same.

    I enjoy Mark's posts, and it's clear that we're going to see more of them. This is a good thing.

    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188

    LOL.. we should alert Janet Yellen!

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  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343

    I nearly cracked up when I read your comment, CD, that my wife and I were "slumming" with her Infiniti and my Acura. I guess your equating both our return to Audis (or German cars in general) to the "economy" is perhaps somewhat (or more than somewhat) true, too.

    Yet, to be more transparent, I think it is also acccurate to say that the Japanese cars we had were (quoting my wife: "passionless") even though they were worthy of being described as "premium" class.

    I had so wanted the Q50 to be what its advanced press promised; and, if you'll recall, I custom ordered an IS 350 F Sport in Ultra White with a red leather interior, AWD and a bunch of options. When my wife ordered a Q5 3.0T, I tes drove the S4 and thought it to be "beyond reach" even though it was clearly able to outperform the IS in every way (including price.)

    The Audi dealer somehow came up with a lease price that made switching my plans and coming "home" to Audi a no brainer. So yea, the economy observation does ring true, but not the whole story.

    Regarding the length of my posts, well, I once again have something to go on about.

    I do urge anyone even thinking about the cars under discussion here to include a test drive of an S4; you may find, as did I, that an S4 is "within reach."

    Until next time: Drive it like you live!

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373

    The board is definitely livening up a bit again. I like it. Infiniti's strong point in this segment with the Q50 are stunning good looks and gobs of power at a very reasonable price. The 3.7L VQ most definitely will not be as smooth as the German sixes. I would say Infiniti's V6 is smoother than BMW's N20 2.0 Turbo 4.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373

    Interesting - seems Infiniti has gone the way of the Germans & has leatherette seating standard on the Q50. It is an option on the Q50 Premium.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    Someone asked for a compare/contrast with the new TL SH AWD and the previous one I had, in addition to a comparison to the S4. I just can't remember which thread asked for the post, so putting it here.

    I'll get this out of the way up front so "markincincinnati" doesn't raise his blood pressure. The S4 drives better, no question. In some areas, it's significantly better, in other areas just a smidgeon better. Then there are areas where the TL SH AWD is better.

    First, the difference between my former 4G TL SHA AWD and this one. The new one is smoother. There's no trans "shifting" feeling going on. My old one had the 5 speed auto. The new one, a 6 speed. I think the ratios are closer together which might account for the smoothness. And, I believe the 6th gear has a taller ratio than the old one. One tank of gas in, 50-50 driving, I got 23 MPG. Plenty acceptable. That's about 10% better than the old TL and about the same amount better than the S4.

    So, I like the new trans in the TL. It's not as good as the DSG 7 speed in the S4. But, it is better than the one in the previous. Again, smooth with good manual control via the paddle shifters. The S4 will bang gears with the best of them, automatic or manual, no ifs, ands or buts.

    The S4 is fast, without a doubt. It's probably the fastest sports sedan I've ever driven, and will rival many muscle cars. The TL is quick. It has plenty of power, especially once you get around the 3K RPM range where the torque kicks in. The S4 has torque all over the range rev. The new 6 speed in the TL makes it feel quicker than the old one. Again, different gear ratios.

    Handling-the TL is FWD based, even though it has the torque vectoring tick going on (as did the S4). So, there is a difference between the S4 and the SH AWD of the TL. Not as much as you might expect, though. They're really close in the handling dept. I find myself sometimes saying, "I liked the S4 better". At other times I find myself saying ("the TL SH AWD is as good as the S4, and also more forgiving"). Tough to choose one over the other.

    Ride-this goes to the new TL. I think Acura has out BMWd BMW with the ride/handling compromise. Acura must have recalibrated the suspension in some way. It's firm without being uncomfortable. Where the S4 sometimes crashes over bumps in the road, the TL absorbs them without drama.

    Seat comfort goes to the TL. They were, and continue to be some of the best sports seats in any car I've ever driven. They're snug without pinching (something the S4's seats sometimes do).

    Fit and finish is a tie. The old TL, the new TL and the S4 are all exemplary in fit and finish. However, as with the old TL, everything in the new TL just works the way it's supposed to. That's a far cry from what I experienced with the S4. All electronics work. There's no in car internet in the TL, but I let the uber expensive in car internet lapse in the S$ because it was slow, and unneeded. Since I did let it lapse in the S4, some of the NAV maps went bonkers (next to no information about the roads being displayed on the NAV). On the TL, it's straight forward, accurate and detailed.

    As good as the B&O stereo was in the S4, the system in the TL (ELS) is better. It's simply one of the best factory sound systems on the market, in any car.

    Styling, as always, is subjective. I liked the look of the older TL. I like the look of my new one better. I'm way in the minority here, though. The S4 is classic Audi with the LCD daytime running lights that everyone seems to like these days. I liked the look of the S4, too.

    Here's where markincinnati and I will part. I had the check from Audi buying back my S4. I pocketed around $14K and got the new TL SH AWD Advance...as loaded as you can get one.

    Is the S4 better? As I started, some ways yes, other ways no. Is it $14K better? Not even close...not even $10K better, and I'd have to try really, really hard to make a case that it's $5K better.

    Don't get me wrong. Both are really good cars. If you're looking to blow people's doors off at stop lights, while having a good handling 4 door, the S4 is for you.

    If you want something more well rounded, that does a lot of things well, the TL is for you (just don't go seeking any Mustang GTs down at a stop light...wait until you get into the corners).

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191

    'Someone asked..'

    Good info - thanks for taking the time!

    • Ray

    Not in the market - today . . .

    2022 X3 M40i
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    Ray....I came within a cat's whisker of buying an X1 35ix. BMW needs to do something about the seats they put in their vehicles, as I didn't like the ones in the X1.

    That said, if the 235i M series had been available, not sure my decision would have been the same.

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373

    @graphicguy

    Great write up. You did an exemplary job at comparing thoroughly & objectively.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343

    graphicguy - when I first came to the "economic" realization, in 2011, that I would feel the prudent choice for my next car (out of a 2009 Audi A4 Prestige) would not be another Audi (a new A4 to replace the '09 would have been about $100+ more per month and the lease term 6 months longer), I tested many brands.

    The 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance seemed like a good choice since it most reminded me of an Audi (and specifically it reminded me more of an S4 than an A4 2.0T with sport package.) I had read a 2010 Automobile Magazine comparison report of the S4 and TL which did say most folks would probably never cross shop the two cars, but overall, the TL SH-AWD was favorably reviewed even though it was "out-gunned" and out-priced by the S4.

    I find myself more in violent agreement with your thoughts than any other perspective. Your recent experience with an S4 certainly has made you come by your observations and opinions honestly. Indeed, your overview was balanced.

    The most subjective part of many purchases we make is typically "value" -- some folks will value an "extra 10%" sufficiently to allow them to cost-justify a 25% (or more in some cases) price difference. This is true in cars, clothes, food and seat choices at sporting events (to name just a few).

    The S4's creators, as I noted, seems to "cost" fun-to-drive at about $10,000 over the TL SH-AWD Advance. Today, I see the S4 as being worth the premium. In 2011, I could not cost-justify such a price delta.

    Bang for the buck does go to the Acura. I am thinking, too, that there are other high bang for the buck offerings available from Korea -- at the same time, I am also thinking the new Cadillac CTS is a lower value proposition than the previous generation CTS. Clearly these preferences are highly subjective.

    Objectively (or as objectively as possible), the Acura can be evaluated as having greater content per dollar than the Audi. Although more subjective in nature, I believe it is probable that any collection of "professional" reviewer's opinions about the two cars would reveal these reviewers to find the S4 more praise-worthy. Objective (measured) test results, too, would probably show the Audi's performance to be higher than the Acuras -- even if often only slightly thus.

    It all comes down to "how much" it is worth to you to have one vs the other. No such comparison is possible, given the 5-figure price difference between the two vehicles, but I wonder which car would be "chosen" if they were priced virtually identically and identically contented.

    I assume if the choice of a new loaded TL SH-AWD or a new loaded S4 were presented, and both had an asking price of $47,500, that the S4 would be chosen more frequently (the vast majority of the time.)

    Can't prove this, of course, but it would make for an interesting study of "perceived value."

    Today, therefore, I'll agree that the TL SH-AWD Advance offers a very high value; but, I will also -- today -- pay the upcharge for the S4 and attribute that price difference to the cost of the "fun-to-drive" factor.

    DILYL -- with the emphasis on "you"!

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    Mark...as always...appreciate your insight.

    At the end of the day, that's the reason there are so many choices, particularly in the ELLPS sliver of the market.

    Competition keeps all of these vehicles we discuss smack in the middle of what I consider some of the most desireable cars on the road. They are certainly among the most capable cars you can drive...probably in any of the individual brands' line up.

    Long and short of it, there's no wrong answer here.

    Since I'm fresh off of test drives, it's clear where some of these manufacturers are going. BMW, for reasons that befuddle me, are softening up their cars. I suspect most will like that. Personally, I don't. But, looks like it's helping them sell more cars. Same can be said for the Infiniti Q, although that softening doesn't seem to be helping them whatsoever in selling the new Q50. Shame.

    Benz is going for high style. I saw pics of the new C class, and drove the CLA. I'm guessing the new C will drive similarly to the old C. Nothing compelling there. CLA shows Benz trying to become the style leader while offering run of the mill driving dynamics. Seems to be working for them as they just surpassed BMW as the U.S. luxury car sales leader. Not my cup 'o tea, but they've been successful with that strategy.

    Audi keeps marching to their own beat. Good for them for doing it. To me, they are the performance leaders. Owning the S4, and having had A6s for extended periods of time as loaners, I can't fathom another manufacturer doing more to imbue their cars with fun to drive characteristics (reliability needs lots of work, though)

    If there's one place Acura has fallen down, it's in the style dept. They've got the engineering down. Their performance is competitive, their operation, build and reliability are rock solid. I don't hold out much hope that the upcoming TL(X) will be substantially different from the RLX is style. I like it, most don't. That said, it does feel good to just have such a capable car do everything well, without worry of hiccups.

    Wish I could think of a pithy saying to close with. Can't. So, thanks for the input....will have to suffice.

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Too bad we couldn't combine all these different cars into one perfect one! Audi style + BMW engines + Benz CLA pricing + Acura reliability

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    Shifty.....couldn't agree more.

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188

    Audi style.. no doubt about that .. the 211 HP A5 looks like a supercar..

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  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    Walt...you've been hot for an A5 for awhile. I can see one as your next car. B)

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343

    The A5 2.0T for 2014 is actually 220HP, but it feels stronger esp. through the 8-speed tiptronic. I suspect there's more power and refinement coming from this engine VERY soon.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435

    my neighbor had a B'day party today so the street was littered with cars. One right in front of my house was a newest design looking TL, in the same dark gray we have on our RDX. Actually looked pretty sharp, and the front end did not even stick out as an eyesore! I also like it in dark blue.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2014

    Is this the same 4 cylinder as in the CLA? Or is it 1.8L vs. 2.0L? --I've read that motor (in the CLA) is kind of thrashy and not befitting a Benz experience. For this price range, I'd certainly choose the V-6 (C400).

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    @MrShift@Edmunds said:
    Is this the same 4 cylinder as in the CLA? Or is it 1.8L vs. 2.0L? --I've read that motor (in the CLA) is kind of thrashy and not befitting a Benz experience. For this price range, I'd certainly choose the V-6 (C400).

    I think the 1.8L is reserved for Europe only. Base engine is 2.0L. And yes, I agree, the V6 would be the way to go here. :)

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686

    Re: The CLA. I believe C & D summed it up with, "When you pay half price for a MB, you get half of a MB."

    Looking forward to the new Jag models that are (hopefully) in the near future pipeline, especially the 3/A/C competitor model. While I'm enjoying the XF more and more each day, and it doesn't feel/drive as big and heavy as I know it is, I would have much preferred a slightly tidier package.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146

    @MrShift@Edmunds said:
    Too bad we couldn't combine all these different cars into one perfect one! Audi style + BMW engines + Benz CLA pricing + Acura reliability

    I will be first in line to buy that car, as soon as I can convince myself to part with the $$.

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  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686

    How about:
    Jaguar style + BMW engines + Benz CLA pricing + Acura reliability

    Any Jaguar love out there? Actually, hopefully, maybe the rumoured upcoming XS will be just this magic elixir!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Same as Audi styling pretty much, at least in the sedans---strikes me as copy-cat (no pun intended). What isn't Audi-like is "retro", and that's somewhat of a dead end, because how many variations of your own retro can you do....well, I suppose Mustang has gotten away with it....

  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,591

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    Tifighter....thanks!

    I'm really digging on that. Gotta wait at least another couple of years before I think about it, though.

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @nyccarguy said:
    The board is definitely livening up a bit again. I like it. Infiniti's strong point in this segment with the Q50 are stunning good looks and gobs of power at a very reasonable price. The 3.7L VQ most definitely will not be as smooth as the German sixes. I would say Infiniti's V6 is smoother than BMW's N20 2.0 Turbo 4.

    I wondered what happened to the forum, since I stopped getting message, I see a whole new look..

    Since having my 320i now for 3 months, I can say that the smoothness is an issue, but since I have upgraded the ECU to the stage one, the extra power has really transformed the car. The harshness doesn't bother me at all, The 320 still have the feel of a BMW, the only positive that the Q50 has is the VQ engine, but that engine has it's issues too.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @graphicguy said:
    Thanks FN. Interesting that BMW went with the double turbo 3.0 instead of the usual V8s they've used in the past.

    Specs look pretty wicked. I like it.

    Any idea on pricing? I was thinking if things keep going with the S4 the way they've been goind, I might be interested in the 235i M. But, this looks quite interesting, too.

    Price for the new M 3/4 has not been set, but the speculations are starting about 57K. The idea of the twin turbo 6 has to do with the CAFE numbers, but since the 320, 328i and 328d are all exceeding their EPA rating, we might see more fun cars from BMW...

    Like you graphic, the M235i has caught my eye, for under 50K you can get yourself a car that is really a M2 (full M suspension, and other go fast items) with the turbo 6 with the performance pack standard. And with the huge aftermarket for that turbo six the sky is really the limit. Rick really likes the 320i, so I might be able to talk him into using his car on a trade in for the M235i...

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373

    @flightnurse

    Glad you (and presumably Rick too) are happy with your 320i. My car is in for service and I got a brand spankin new 2014 328xd. This is the 3rd new body style 3 series I've driven. BMW seems to be trying (operative word here) to inject some of its "ultimate driving machine" magic more and more. I actually like the new 3er more and more as a commuter. While the steering is still too vague for my tastes, the ride is comfortable & taut, the 8 speed automatic is well matched to both the 4cyl gasser & 4cyl diesel.

    The diesel is a bit harsher than the 4cyl gas 320i & 328i. As expected, mid range torque is fantastic, but the most impressive thing of all is the diesel's fuel economy. A green engine (the car had 9 miles on it when I picked it up) is showing between 39 & 40 mpg average. Literally almost double what I get with my 2011 328xi.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @nyccarguy said:
    flightnurse

    Glad you (and presumably Rick too) are happy with your 320i. My car is in for service and I got a brand spankin new 2014 328xd. This is the 3rd new body style 3 series I've driven. BMW seems to be trying (operative word here) to inject some of its "ultimate driving machine" magic more and more. I actually like the new 3er more and more as a commuter. While the steering is still too vague for my tastes, the ride is comfortable & taut, the 8 speed automatic is well matched to both the 4cyl gasser & 4cyl diesel.

    The diesel is a bit harsher than the 4cyl gas 320i & 328i. As expected, mid range torque is fantastic, but the most impressive thing of all is the diesel's fuel economy. A green engine (the car had 9 miles on it when I picked it up) is showing between 39 & 40 mpg average. Literally almost double what I get with my 2011 328xi.

    Over on Bimmerfest people are posting 50 mpg (highway) on trips with a relatively "green" engine. and as the engine loosens up more the mpg will increase too. For a commuter car the 328d is really one of best cars to get, it is comfortable, can carry 4 adults without problems, and get the same and or better MPG then so called economy cars. People are posting some incredible lease deal they are getting on them too. A base 328d, with heated seats and moonroof, MSRP 41K, sale price 37K, Minus $750 built credit, $1000 USAA credit, $1000 BMWCC credit, and the killer part they are added 7 MSDs (Multi Security Deposits) out of pocket was $3750 36m/12K/yr payment are $365/m + tax. At the end of lease the $3750 will come back to them. The MSD are a hidden gem in the BMW lease deals...Granted you have to have the money to do, but if you do they are a great deal...

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited January 2014

    The new Acura TLX (and the press release comments) give me hope for the brand. I am going to assume the engineers and designers at Acura have banished as much of the "Honda Effect" as possible. I see no harm in some power train sharing, for example, but Acura needs to be a brand that stands out as a Brand, not just an upscale Honda.

    For years (and I know since I owned examples of both brands), it was quite easy to see the resemblance and lineage of Audi and VW. I assume it was Audi who made the decision to "go their own way" not the other way around. The result has been beneficial to both brands.

    The new Q50 (recently reviewed -- and not all that favorably -- on MotorWeek) got the style right as far as I am concerned. The 3.7L engine has been made to feel much smoother and the interior is more upscale befitting Infiniti's aspirations. Thus far, however, the reviews of the Q50 have been, well, underwhelming. I suspect the driving dynamics that the experts loved in the G37 will need to return and be improved upon sooner rather than later.

    The IS from Lexus -- in IS 350 F Sport trim -- seems to have gotten everything right, not so much however the lesser IS's, especially the 250 which has recently been given mostly "thumb's down."

    Now, along comes Acura with what appears to be a sparkling, spanky new TL(X). Acura, for the past few years, has been apparently wandering aimlessly (with the exception of the MDX, one of Acura's 'reasons for being') -- are they a Premium car-line or are they drifting further away with each passing year (a halo car, which is looking good, ain't enough to redeem them, yet). This new TLX is, from the web pictures a looker -- and the marketing message is pretty darn strong. Like the Q50 and the IS 350 F Sport, however, the proof will be when the automotive press gets their hands on the thing in several states of trim.

    Despite my "one and done" Acura TL SH-AWD flirtation and my subsequent return to Audi (with an S4 none the less), I did think the Acura was a decent attempt at creating an ELLPS; I still think the 2012 and newer Acura TL SH-AWD models were Acura's S4, and a high value vehicle, too.

    So, here's hoping Acura's glintzy (a made up word) new TLX lives up to our expectations as well as its press release. As Van Morrison said (adapted here to mean "These are the days to be in the market for a new ELLPS"):

    "These are the days, the time is now
    There is no past, there's only future
    There's only here, there's only now."

    Get 'em while they're hot.

    And, drive it like you live.

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343

    Oops, I see I said Acura was wondering when what I meant was "wandering." Pardon me. Isn't there any way to edit these posts any more?

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,071

    @markcincinnati said:
    Oops, I see I said Acura was wondering when what I meant was "wandering." Pardon me. Isn't there any way to edit these posts any more?

    If you hover over the post, you'll see a 'gear' icon. Click on it and you can edit your post. You now have a 4 hour window to do so.

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  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343

    Michaell - Cool. Edited! Thanks!

  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421

    I'm with Mark on the new TLX. It's definitely on my list of "must try" as of now. Of course that is pending reviews. As far as looks though, great. The talk is all right on track for me too: performance, quiet cabin, tech.

    It's still got plenty of hurdles to clear though. I'm picky with interiors. I love Audi in that regard. I certainly prefer Honda/Acura to Toyota/Lexus interiors, but we will see what we get here.

    On top of that they will be contending with the upcoming A3 sedan and the CLA. I'm glad to see this new class being competitive!

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435

    that spy shot of the TLX did look sharp. Not worried about the interior. They seem to have been doing a good job there.

    I am curious to see what they do for powertrain. Since it is replacing the TL and TSX, will they go with a 4/6/hybrid? Turbo something?

    Will also be nice if it frees up the ILX for a power boost. Basically use the 2.4l on a mid-level AT model, not just the "hot rod'. That IMO will make it a much more desirable option since it will be plenty quick. Keep the 2.0l for the base car, and have the 2.4 as the upgrade.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343

    The SH-AWD version will have the 3.5L V6 and a 9-speed dual clutch transmission, at least I think it said dual clutch (the 9-speed I am sure of).

    My 2012 TL had a 3.7L V6 rated at 305 HP -- which, these days is close to being too little (unless there is a big torque number that comes on at relatively low RPM's). I would assume Acura has goosed things appropriately all the way around.

    With respect to the interior -- well, most folks did not and do not seem to make favorable comments about the "button-happy" interior and steering wheel. Once I got used to things, it never really bothered me, but the 2012 interior was not what I would call "premium" -- it seemed like, well, TOO MUCH Honda Accord DNA had seeped into it.

    Looking at the Audi interiors often spoils [most] people for others interior treatments. I count myself as one of those so spoiled.

    I am, however, confident, that Acura will probably get the interior right this time. But wait -- it is probably going to be very much like the RLX, which has been recently criticized for still being too busy.

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805

    @stickguy said:>
    I am curious to see what they do for powertrain. Since it is replacing the TL and TSX, will they go with a 4/6/hybrid? Turbo something?

    New 2.4 at about 200 HP with an 8 speed dual clutch auto with a torque converter and a 9 speed auto. SH-AWD and 4 wheel steering available on the 6.

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    @stickguy said:
    that spy shot of the TLX did look sharp. Not worried about the interior. They seem to have been doing a good job there.

    I am curious to see what they do for powertrain. Since it is replacing the TL and TSX, will they go with a 4/6/hybrid? Turbo something?

    Will also be nice if it frees up the ILX for a power boost. Basically use the 2.4l on a mid-level AT model, not just the "hot rod'. That IMO will make it a much more desirable option since it will be plenty quick. Keep the 2.0l for the base car, and have the 2.4 as the upgrade.

    I believe Acura was pretty early to the 300+ HP V6 party. I know my Mustang GT SOHC V8 had 300 HP less than 10 years ago. BMW is still touting their twin scroll turbo 6 as 300 HP (albeit I suspect that's under rated). The Lexus (x)S 350 V6 is right at that mark, too. The Infiniti V6 in the Q/G sedans have more HP, but are down on torque compared to the Acura V6.

    Audi uses a S/C on their 6 cyl, and is a great performer. Their 4 cyl is 220HP but is torquey.

    So, I think Acura is dead on if they end up with a 210-230 HP 4 cyl and a 310-320 HP V6. Again, 8 sp DCT or 9 sp transmissions put them right at the front of the class, too.

    Mark, I don't think Acura gives up anything to the Audi's interior in materials, build, or functionality. Like you, I've owned both. Still say the ELS sound system in the current TL trumps the B&O system in the S4.

    I'm into my new TL for at least 2-3 more years. After that, I'll be in my Acura store first visit of any shopping trip.

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • shalabshalab Member Posts: 1

    I have the C250 and I love it...minus the tire issues that I've had. The tires are very sensitive. I've replaced a tire and fixed 2 flats in 6 months.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    Damn I was far off...Glad I did not bet on it

    2015 F80 M3: $62,000

    2015 F82 M4: $64,200

    Destination and handling $925 (currently - subject to change)

    Manual transmission is standard with DCT being an add-on option. This represents a serious jump in pricing over the out going E90 and E92 M3 factoring in inflation, high tech construction with carbon fiber and additional base equipment it is not out of line and cheaper then some expected. Package and option will be similar to F30/F32 pricing, for more ordering information take a peak at the M3/M4 dealer demo ordering sheets.

    BMW M3 / M4 Timeline
    January 18th-26th - Public debut at Detroit Auto Show
    End of January, early February - Full dealer pricing and order guides released
    February - Dealers allocations assigned and customer order bank opens
    March - Stat of Production for dealer demo and launch cars
    Late April - Start of production for customer cars.
    Mid June - Press drive and media launch
    Late June - Customer deliveries start and European Delivery begin

    About the F80 M3 and F82 M4
    The all-new BMW M3 Sedan and first-ever BMW M4 Coupe are examples of the legendary BMW M engineering which emphasizes a synthesis of motorsport technology with unrestricted daily driving versatility. World-class engine and powertrain technologies, along with intelligent lightweight vehicle construction through extensive use of exotic construction materials, add to the intensity of the M feeling and driving experience. The extensive weight-reduction efforts of the BMW M engineers should not be under looked. The new BMW M3 and BMW M4 are the first BMW M cars to see a reduction in curb weight from one generation to the next. Both models are equipped with an all-new 3.0-liter inline-6 engine with M TwinPower Turbo technology and increased performance levels that distinguish them from previous generations of the M3 family, delivering 425 horsepower and 406 lb-ft of torque. Both the M3 Sedan and M4 Coupe accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in 3.9 seconds when equipped with the optional M-DCT transmission. By setting new segment standards in terms of dynamics, agility, precise handling and emotional design, the new BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe have set the benchmark for the high-performance segment created by the M3 many years ago.

    For the full run down

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    FN....thanks for the BMW M update. I'll have to check out their pics from the NAIAS.

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421

    The TL was a car I wanted to like but just couldnt make it happen. This segment is too full of excellent competitors to misfire on any one thing too badly. The TL just fell a bit short in both interior and exterior for me. Felt too much like a slightly better Accord for a lot more money.

    Ironically I ended up with a Kia ;) So I'm not necessarily into the badge thing, more the value. I didnt feel like the Acura sedans were enough of a value.

    This new TLX though is high on my watch list. Right there with the A3/S3.

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    FN.....I just totally read your link to the M cars. Interestingly, the twin turbo straight 6 is still being used. I thought them giving up on V8s for M Power, and having what appeared to be the more recent "twin sroll" turbo charger, they would "tweak" the latter given how it's a more recent engine than the twin turbocharger unit.

    But, they are getting great performance out of it. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Still can't wait to see the 235i M car.

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @graphicguy said:
    FN.....I just totally read your link to the M cars. Interestingly, the twin turbo straight 6 is still being used. I thought them giving up on V8s for M Power, and having what appeared to be the more recent "twin sroll" turbo charger, they would "tweak" the latter given how it's a more recent engine than the twin turbocharger unit.

    But, they are getting great performance out of it. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Still can't wait to see the 235i M car.

    The new engine is all for CAFE and Emission [non-permissible content removed]'s.. While the V8 was nice, the torque figures were horrible, the new 6 cyl makes almost double of the V8... So the new M cars will really push you into the seat.

    Also the weight difference between the M235i and M3/4 cars is significant, being that the M3/4 cars weight less.... I' with you graphic, the new M235i will be the car to get, back to the basic's and for about $44K.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    @graphicguy said:

    Still can't wait to see the 235i M car.

    Here it is the M235i

    All the info you want and more... and yes you can now build one on BMW website

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    Thanks FN!

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,369

    @flightnurse said:
    All the info you want and more... and yes you can now build one on BMW website

    Pretty limited choice of colors! Three shades of grey (including black sapphire metallic which is really a very dark grey), two whites, a red that's not as vibrant as the old Imola Red and an odd blue.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    @andys120 said:

    andys....both of my BMWs were black saphire metalic. They were a deep black with metal flake. I liked the mineral grey (but only with red leather), and the mineral white (but only with tan leather).

    For years I've bemoaned all of these car companies choices (or lack thereof) of color choices however.

    Gimme a couple of blues, or some crimson.

    It's not just BMW. It's Acura, Mercedes and all the rest, too. The only one who seemingly give better color choices these days is Cadillac.

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
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