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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433

    @ab348 said:
    It surprises me the Altima is the best seller. It just isn't on my radar at all. Truly an anonymous car, and I always felt the CVT hurt it. Maybe the segment just doesn't care.

    IMO the vast majority of segment buyers don't care about the car. Just the deal. As long as it is reasonably comfortable and mileage and performance are acceptable, it is all about the Benjamin's.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited March 2014

    I'd like to chime in on sticks comment. He is right on about the dollar . I have bought and closed many deals for family, friends and friends of friends for over 40 years maybe well over one thousand vehicles bought across the country. I always said in these forums when you look at buying a new vehicle every dealer sells the same product.. lowest price closest to your home wins 9 out of 10 times. Many times my friends would give me 2 or 3 models and what ever car is the cheapest they wanted.

    Benjaminh is correct but he forgot to mention Kia , and Hyundai in the up comming price wars.
    If you read thru this months Cr reports on cars, trucks I'm amazed how many different vehicles are not such a bad choice after all. Im not a guy who care's much about MPG, I like my cars/ suv's, roomy , quiet, and fast but thats me. someone else who travels needs mpg or wants a sport tuned ride etc.

    If Honda doesn't want to discount there vehicles with deeper rebates/ incentives folks will look elsewhere. Perfect example Nissan and Toyota this month are outselling hondas best midsize car.. Its all about $$$$$$$$$$ Saved for most. I have had many folks emailing me saying Hey Brian I'm done with Honda and the nonsense and games they play with us...... Going for that Nissan or Hyundai.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681

    @brian125 said:
    I'd like to chime in on sticks comment. He is right on about the dollar . I have bought and closed many deals for family, friends and friends of friends for over 40 years maybe well over one thousand vehicles bought across the country. I always said in these forums when you look at buying a new vehicle every dealer sells the same product.. lowest price closest to your home wins 9 out of 10 times. Many times my friends would give me 2 or 3 models and what ever car is the cheapest they wanted.

    Benjaminh is correct but he forgot to mention Kia , and Hyundai in the up comming price wars.
    If you read thru this months Cr reports on cars, trucks I'm amazed how many different vehicles are not such a bad choice after all. Im not a guy who care's much about MPG, I like my cars/ suv's, roomy , quiet, and fast but thats me. someone else who travels needs mpg or wants a sport tuned ride etc.

    If Honda doesn't want to discount there vehicles with deeper rebates/ incentives folks will look elsewhere. Perfect example Nissan and Toyota this month are outselling hondas best midsize car.. Its all about $$$$$$$$$$ Saved for most. I have had many folks emailing me saying Hey Brian I'm done with Honda and the nonsense and games they play with us...... Going for that Nissan or Hyundai.

    You're right. I probably wouldn't choose the Altima (I'm not in the market now and haven't compared them all...so who knows), but I took notice a couple days ago when a local Nissan dealer TV advertisement indicated $5000 off of MSRP.

    If it truly was $5k less than the competition (and not their "S" demo model, etc) then I may not even go drive the others; that is a significant discount.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited March 2014

    Hey Brian: I don't understand what you mean by Honda's "nonsense and games"? They don't allow options, but that's how they've done things since the 70s. Having trim lines instead of thousands of combinations of options simplifies manufacturing, lowers costs, and increases quality. This allows them to offer a somewhat better and somewhat more reliable car than most of their competitors for just a little bit more money. Honda's engineering, imho, is at or near the best in most areas. Their prices seem fair for what they are offering. To me it's the others who are getting into games with 0% plus money on the hood, but there's no doubt it helps move the metal! And if Honda wants to stay in the game, they'll probably need to increase their incentives a little. But mainly Honda is selling their cars on being a good value for a slightly better car, rather than selling on the lowest possible price. I think there's still a segment of the market that will pay a little bit more for a better car. The bottom line is that Honda is moving just a little bit upmarket compared to, say, a Camry, and to me that's a good thing....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited March 2014

    I have done deals on cars for as little as 800 less than the other brand. go figure.. I would bet anything that the members who have the new Sonata are happy the Fusion or Optima with little complaint.
    Maybe down the road 5, 6 years when the vehicle is aging you might say this might not of been a good choice. There are many vehicles that i would Never buy but when you read about people who have these vehicles and are happy with them i say to myself maybe i was the foolish one to spend that extra 5 or 10 k. LOL

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited March 2014

    Honda dealerships across the country while some are good decent dealerships alot more are into deceiving folks on price, lying to get them into the dealerships and there unwillingness to sell there vehicles cheaper in some area's. If your area is sellling at xxx price i will show you how to get the dealers best price in your area. THEN its up to you if you want to buy in your area or broaden your dealership search maybe going out of state for a better deal.. Alot of people in these forums fall into the trap of seeing other posters claim they got 1500 below invoice price. But in there area or state dealerships are selling at 400 below invoice price.. So they try like hell to get that 1500 and have a hard buying process.

    Honda makes a great product they refuse to discount like the other car brands and why should they if they can get it.. Like you mentioned in your above post the other car companies will push honda to lower there profit margin and price by offering deeper cuts and incentives. There are alot of good choice's today so honda even thou reports claim they have the best overall midsize vehicle sales seem to be driven by price in the midsize market.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    @akirby said:
    Exactly. Although snow tires do seem to help, even on ice.

    That was a very interesting video, thanks. The studless winter tires did better than I thought they would--even though these tests are done at very slow speeds.

    It would be interesting to conduct the same tests on the ice with just a light film of water on it, like one often encounters in the real world.

  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676

    The Altima is not just for people who don't care. It's a very nice car. We had a hard time deciding between it and the Accord, and price was not the factor.

    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited March 2014

    year-to-date midsize sales.....

    Altima: 53,364

    Camry: 52,330

    Accord: 45,226

    Fusion: 44,615

    Malibu: 29,270

    Chr 200: 22,958

    Optima: 21,205

    Sonata: 21,005

    Passat: 13,233

    Avenger: 12,984

    Mazda6: 7117

    Legacy: 5310

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    suydam: Yeah, the Altima is impressive. The style is a bit weird, but it's growing on me. And it is currently the mpg leader when it comes to epa ratings. I've seen them advertised in Louisville for as low as c. $19,000. That's quite a good car for that kind of money....I'd definitely take an Altima over a Camry.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    The Altima I rented was a very nice car. At any rate, it sure beat out the other rentals I was given at other times--not that they were any highly rated cars......

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited March 2014

    New 2015 Sonata due in several months. Some stuff from the Hyundai press release:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/04/2015-hyundai-sonata-teaser/#continued

    .....SAFETY

    The all-new Sonata reinforces its safety in crash tests with an improved body structure and rigidity, while other advanced features also contribute to enhancing the vehicle's overall safety.

    By expanding on the application of Advanced-High Strength Steel (AHSS), which is twice as rigid yet 10 percent lighter than regular steel, the all-new Sonata achieves upgraded safety and driving performance.

    The all-new Sonata's platform is now 51 percent AHSS, while the previous model had only 21 percent. In particular, most AHSS uses are for components designed to protect passengers, which works to achieve top-class safety in all aspects.

    Furthermore, connection within the car frame has been strengthened by increasing the use of structure adhesive by more than 10 times than previous models and the addition of dual member structures in main parts of the body. Moreover, hot-stamping components are used three times more than for the previous model, and the hot-stamped double-section structure on the B-pillar hugely improves safety in crash tests.

    Through these changes, the all-new Sonata's torsional and bending stiffness has been increased more than 40 percent compared to its predecessor. Internal tests suggest that the all-new Sonata will score "Good" at IIHS's small overlap test....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    Autoblog tests Accord Touring:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/03/2014-honda-accord-v6-touring-review/#continued

    "....Having driven nearly all of this year's midsize contenders, we can say there's no other family sedan on the market with mechanicals that operate in such harmony. From the powertrain to the transmission to the suspension to the steering, all of the Accord's subsystems are on the same page with each other from the moment the start button is pressed. Most of its competitors nail one or two of these disciplines, but rarely do they come close to a complete package like the Accord (the Mazda6 is the exception, though which is better is close enough to be a matter of taste). What's more, there's even a six-speed manual transmission still available on LX, EX and Sport models, though the EX-L V6 and our Touring tester are only available with this well-tuned six-speed automatic...."

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • @akirby said:
    Exactly. Although snow tires do seem to help, even on ice.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

    OMG. The only car that couldn't make it up the hill on our local Fairfax Co Pkwy was a late model BMW.

    Looked like he didn't know that summer tires are for...ummm, summer. Lowering it couldn't have helped either.

  • @benjaminh said:
    year-to-date midsize sales.....

    Altima: 53,364

    Camry: 52,330

    Accord: 45,226

    Fusion: 44,615

    Malibu: 29,270

    Chr 200: 22,958

    Optima: 21,205

    Sonata: 21,005

    Passat: 13,233

    Avenger: 12,984

    Mazda6: 7117

    Legacy: 5310

    WOW! Altima in the lead? I didn't expect that.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    And the Optima is ahead of the Sonata.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    Seems like an impressive structural upgrade for the next gen Sonata. I assume Optima will get a similar boost. Now, if only they'd get rid of the blind spot. It would be nice imho to see Optima looking a bit more like BMW with a Hofmeister kink...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmeister_kink

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2014

    benjaminh - I appreciated the article on the Accord Touring, I think the front and rear of the car are very understated and stylish. I like the looks of the car, but not the center stack, or the Touring wheels, and I would not want the 3.5 with the cylinder deactivation, or the Adaptive Cruise based on the article. I would like the cameras. The wheels are not commiserate with a $32,000 car. I would either buy the Sport for $23.500 (which looks like I spent more), or mosey over to Mazda and cut them a check, sticking with the naturally aspirated 4 and the 6 speed auto.

    The Touring just has bells and whistles that have too many odd side effects that would scare me in operation, and down the line when it came to repairs...especially the cylinder deactivation, and the weird-in-the-real-world Adaptive Cruise operation.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited March 2014

    cski: I like the touch screen set up. I don't have the touring, but our exl navi has that stuff, and it works pretty well for me. To state the obvious, it's best to program in an address before you start the car actually moving. And if you do that, the touchscreen turns into a little keypad for typing letters and numbers. It's handy, and much quicker than the last gen Honda navi, which we also own. When it's on audio, the touch screen buttons are also nice, because they are extra large and high up on the dash. Depending on which function you are using, perhaps it is sometimes little complicated, but guess what--cars that are this loaded to the gills have a lot of toys and functions you get to control, and so a certain number of controls are needed imho.

    We don't have the adaptive, and so I can't comment on that.

    I like the exl and touring wheels ok, but they are rather understated, and might be seen as plain. Honda puts the real money into other stuff--like the engine, transmission, body, suspension, etc., all of which are at or near the top of the class.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited March 2014

    So an all-new Sonata is coming out for MY 2015. Will there also be an all-new Optima?

    Were they synchronized last time? In other words, this generation of Sonata went on sale in early 2010 as a 2011 model. That was already four years ago. Did the new Optima also go on sale in 2010 as a 2011, or did this gen Optima come out a year later?

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2014

    @benjaminh said:
    Seems like an impressive structural upgrade for the next gen Sonata. I assume Optima will get a similar boost. Now, if only they'd get rid of the blind spot. It would be nice imho to see Optima looking a bit more like BMW with a Hofmeister kink...

    1) The Optima came out in 2011 also. The Sonata preceded the Optima availability nine showrooms by 6 months. The first one I ever saw was wrapped in heavy saran wrap at the dealer while mom bought a Forte'. I fell in love with the lines.

    2) I just saw a commercial with an Optima owner backing into the garage... with a box of kids stuffed animals behind the car... anyway he gets close to hitting it and then they show the screen in the center stack and the view through the camera. Crying child averted.

    Backing up the Optima is terrifying w/o the camera. I hate it. I eventually learned to aim my mirrors for lane changes, but backing up they might as well have just omitted the rear window.

    3) Benjaminh - I didn't mean to rag on the Accord. I just responded to the article and the reviewers opinions. After sitting in the Accord at the auto show I kind of like my stack setup better. I try to be honest about everything and look at everything objectively. I would almost rather have your center stack in exchange for better visibility.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    Passat SEL with 1.8 turbo gets a good review from Auto Week....

    "....EDITOR WES RAYNAL: This here is a fine winter car. It goes great in the snow, has a heck of a heater and terrific heated seats -- all the comforts one needs. When the weather is like this, that's about all I'm asking.

    I prefer my Passats with the diesel, but this combo isn't bad. True, Passats are a bit dull to look at inside and out (kind of making the diesel the main selling point), but are well built, roomy as any other midsize car out there if not more so (materials could use a slight upgrade, but only slight), and the turbo four has plenty of oomph. The mpg indicator on the dash said I got 29 mpg commuting on surface streets. That's only 1 mpg less than the last time I drove the diesel.

    Diesel or gas, the Passat flows down the road, quiet and smooth. I've read some other reports -- not ours -- that the engine isn't mated well to this gearbox, it doesn't shift smoothly and whatnot. I did not experience that. I thought it was fine. The engine/trans relationship and drivability are class competitive.

    There are other virtues. The navigation/stereo screen works well. The seats are comfy. The trunk is huge...."

    Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20140304/carreviews/140309967#ixzz2v5b9fCrp
    Follow us: @AutoweekUSA on Twitter | AutoweekUSA on Facebook

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited March 2014

    I was intrigued by VW's high mpg prototype Passat that got 42 mpg. They did it by giving the car a 1.4 turbo 4 that would shut off two cylinders at highway speed. The problem is that their 1.4 really was not powerful enough for a 3200+ lb car. But I can see engineers taking this route in the future. If you could get the weight down to 3000 lbs by using high strength steel, aluminum, and composite materials, and then maybe going with a 1.6 turbo, you probably could still get to around a 42 epa rating on the highway. And since many Accord owners are able, in admittedly ideal conditions, to get 40 on the highway with a car rated at 36, then with a car rated at 42 you might be able to get, say, c. 46 mpg or so with a regular gas car with midsize room. On the highway, at least, that's close to Prius mpg. City numbers, obviously, would be more like 30--but that's still getting what a Civic or other small gets today in the city.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • It would depend a lot on the area. In low speed, heavily congested situations with very little highway use, I have learned that a hybrid is not a bad idea. Also, I have seen quite a few articles on how these small, boosted mills are falling shot of F/E promises.

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469

    @cski said:
    It would depend a lot on the area. In low speed, heavily congested situations with very little highway use, I have learned that a hybrid is not a bad idea. Also, I have seen quite a few articles on how these small, boosted mills are falling shot of F/E promises.

    Certainly the case for Ford. I think the VW turbos fair a little better in fuel economy.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2014

    Well, also I have a lot of respect for VW in the way they rate their engines conservatively, allowing the buyer to feel like VW exceeded their expectations. VW/AG's 2.0T engine, rated at 200 HP, was notorious for being stronger than it's advertised numbers. More like 225-240.

    You know, the head of Hyundai USA just stepped down. Not only were Hyundai/Kia MPG numbers not what they were supposed to be, but also I noticed this year that the 2.4 liter mills in both the Sonata and the Optima (supposedly "unchanged") have been down rated to 192 HP, instead of 200. (or 198 for Sonata's with single exhaust).

    How does and unchanged engine make 8 less horsepower in the same car? I feel a little pencil whipped in that department.

    Lastly, saw a white Honda Accord Sport on the highway. There is no way I would spend $32,000 for a Touring V6 when the Sport model looks that good. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but this is mid-size 2.0; and that Honda is a fine looking car! At $23,500, it is probably the best deal for any car on the road today.

    If I had to buy a car today it would be down to Accord Sport, Mazda6 Touring, and Optima EX (with a d*mn backup camera) as contestants.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited March 2014

    cski: Since it sounds like you do c. 90% city miles, maybe you should put a hybrid on your imaginary wish list. The Accord hybrid, for instance, may not have the wheels or dual exhaust you crave, but at c. 50 mpg city, compared to c. 24 for the Optima, you might save almost c. $1000 a year on gas. Plus the visibility problem would be fixed with thin pillars, Hofmeister kinks, and rear and side cameras. The problem is that the Accord hybrid is in such demand it's selling for almost msrp at this point. In another 6 months, however, prices will probably go down as production in Ohio on the hybrid ramps up. I'm thinking about a hybrid myself for whenever it comes time to replace my 2008 Accord. I'd save about a thousand a year on gas too. Of course, that never makes up for the purchase price of a new car....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539
    edited March 2014

    I really REALLY appreciate my Accord ('13 Sport 6MT) this week. My wife was rear-ended in it. Not severely, 10-15 mph, no injury, and little damage to the car. But still it added up to a $750 insurance estimate, and that assumes there's no damage behind the bumper panel.

    I dropped it off at the body shop and went to get the rental. They set me up with a compact... Ordinarily I'd insist on something comparable size, but the adjuster and rental guy were very pleasant and moving quickly for us, and I only expected to need it a short time. So I figured why not get something small, save on gas in the meantime? It'll be parked at the airport a couple days anyway. Plus it is a 2014 Hyundai Elentra, which I admit to being slightly curious about. Is it really as good as the reviews say? It's as big as a midsizer inside, so they say... I'll take it.

    Well. I know rental cars don't get treated with the most TLC, but this thing is quite a disappointment. It's the base model, apparently, or close to it. Interior materials are chintzy (and not very clean - trying not to judge the CAR for that, but it adds to the "experience"). Seat is quite uncomfortable - too narrow. Dead pedal is too small for my size 12. Front leg room is okay with the seat all the way back, and the steering wheel tilts and telescopes. It does have a USB port, no bluetooth. Road noise is better than my '08 Mazda3, but noticeably worse than my Accord. Adjustable steering is gimmicky - Comfort is sloppy, Sport is ridiculously stiff (had a flashback to the wife's 1996 Geo Metro with no power assist) - just leave it in Normal. Brakes are fine. Back seat leg room is small with driver's seat back - not seeing the "midsize" interior here. Maybe it's the head room, which is quite good, and not to be discounted... but it's no replacement for an actual midsize sedan.

    The worst aspect is definitely its transmission. Six-speed auto with manu-matic gate. Seems promising and impressive for the price, but it is an absolute dog. It's desperate for higher gears at the expense of power. 2K RPM at 70 mph is good, I believe the 40+ mpg highway claims. I'm being unkind to it and getting 33 in moderate traffic. But there's no power when you start from a stop, until suddenly it's racing like a maniac. Just so poorly calibrated, or something. Manumatic isn't worth the effort - it's reasonably responsive to "manual" shifts for what it is, but not something I want to deal with all the time. Again, perhaps this is a mistreated rental and not representative of the brand, but it's only got 4K on the clock. I feel I'd get better mpg with a transmission that kept the engine in its dang power band until I was at cruising speed, versus one that has to be stomped into submission. Or maybe I am just a stick shift control freak and this crap is considered acceptable to most people. I don't remember having any issues with the Optima I test drove last summer. The power seems adequate, if the transmission were more cooperative.

    Anyway, this is getting long, and it's not a midsize car, but I thought I'd rant a bit on my coffee break. Bottom line - I really am glad I got this thing, because it's going to make my Accord feel like an M5 and I'll fall in lover all over again. I just hope the damage is minor so that it doesn't hurt me on Carfax or whatever. TTFN.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    cars.com says the Accord hybrid, like the others, fails to achieve its epa mpg estimates:

    http://www.cars.com/honda/accord-hybrid/2014/expert-reviews/

    "....We've tested the Fusion Hybrid extensively around our Chicago offices, and it has failed to achieve numbers even close to its EPA ratings. I tested the Accord Hybrid in Southern California over nearly 500 miles of highway, city and mountain driving, and it, too, fell far short of the posted ratings.

    The Accord Hybrid achieved its best mileage in heavy, congested traffic, where the trip computer showed more than 42 mpg. For the rest of my time, it hovered right above 40 mpg. My final fill-up had the trip computer showing 40.8 mpg. My calculated mileage came out a bit higher, at 42.3 mpg.

    While 42 mpg of real-world mileage is nothing to sneeze at, I was mostly driving alone or with one passenger, I never switched the air conditioning on (instead relying on 50-70 degree outside air to come through the vents), and when traversing down mountain roads I used both the EV mode and the aggressive regenerative braking mode...."

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459

    @benjaminh said:
    Hey Brian: I don't understand what you mean by Honda's "nonsense and games"? They don't allow options, but that's how they've done things since the 70s. Having trim lines instead of thousands of combinations of options simplifies manufacturing, lowers costs, and increases quality. This allows them to offer a somewhat better and somewhat more reliable car than most of their competitors for just a little bit more money. Honda's engineering, imho, is at or near the best in most areas. Their prices seem fair for what they are offering. To me it's the others who are getting into games with 0% plus money on the hood, but there's no doubt it helps move the metal! And if Honda wants to stay in the game, they'll probably need to increase their incentives a little. But mainly Honda is selling their cars on being a good value for a slightly better car, rather than selling on the lowest possible price. I think there's still a segment of the market that will pay a little bit more for a better car. The bottom line is that Honda is moving just a little bit upmarket compared to, say, a Camry, and to me that's a good thing....

    I don't get it. How does "Having trim lines .. lowers costs .." lead to "This allows them to offer a .. car .. for just a little bit more money."? Lower manufacturing costs leads to a more expensive product? Sounds like Honda is more interested in a higher profit margin than in giving the consumer a good deal.

    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • @ahightower said:
    I really REALLY appreciate my Accord ('13 Sport 6MT) this week. My wife was rear-ended in it. Not severely, 10-15 mph, no injury, and little damage to the car. But still it added up to a $750 insurance estimate, and that assumes there's no damage behind the bumper panel.

    I dropped it off at the body shop and went to get the rental. They set me up with a compact... Ordinarily I'd insist on something comparable size, but the adjuster and rental guy were very pleasant and moving quickly for us, and I only expected to need it a short time. So I figured why not get something small, save on gas in the meantime? It'll be parked at the airport a couple days anyway. Plus it is a 2014 Hyundai Elentra, which I admit to being slightly curious about. Is it really as good as the reviews say? It's as big as a midsizer inside, so they say... I'll take it.

    Well. I know rental cars don't get treated with the most TLC, but this thing is quite a disappointment. It's the base model, apparently, or close to it. Interior materials are chintzy (and not very clean - trying not to judge the CAR for that, but it adds to the "experience"). Seat is quite uncomfortable - too narrow. Dead pedal is too small for my size 12. Front leg room is okay with the seat all the way back, and the steering wheel tilts and telescopes. It does have a USB port, no bluetooth. Road noise is better than my '08 Mazda3, but noticeably worse than my Accord. Adjustable steering is gimmicky - Comfort is sloppy, Sport is ridiculously stiff (had a flashback to the wife's 1996 Geo Metro with no power assist) - just leave it in Normal. Brakes are fine. Back seat leg room is small with driver's seat back - not seeing the "midsize" interior here. Maybe it's the head room, which is quite good, and not to be discounted... but it's no replacement for an actual midsize sedan.

    The worst aspect is definitely its transmission. Six-speed auto with manu-matic gate. Seems promising and impressive for the price, but it is an absolute dog. It's desperate for higher gears at the expense of power. 2K RPM at 70 mph is good, I believe the 40+ mpg highway claims. I'm being unkind to it and getting 33 in moderate traffic. But there's no power when you start from a stop, until suddenly it's racing like a maniac. Just so poorly calibrated, or something. Manumatic isn't worth the effort - it's reasonably responsive to "manual" shifts for what it is, but not something I want to deal with all the time. Again, perhaps this is a mistreated rental and not representative of the brand, but it's only got 4K on the clock. I feel I'd get better mpg with a transmission that kept the engine in its dang power band until I was at cruising speed, versus one that has to be stomped into submission. Or maybe I am just a stick shift control freak and this crap is considered acceptable to most people. I don't remember having any issues with the Optima I test drove last summer. The power seems adequate, if the transmission were more cooperative.

    Anyway, this is getting long, and it's not a midsize car, but I thought I'd rant a bit on my coffee break. Bottom line - I really am glad I got this thing, because it's going to make my Accord feel like an M5 and I'll fall in lover all over again. I just hope the damage is minor so that it doesn't hurt me on Carfax or whatever. TTFN.

    The seat in the Elantra was the reason our senior pastor sold his. He had the top of the line, 2011 Elantra in red with the 17' wheels. Gorgeous, but in the end... its an Elantra. He drove my car the day I got it, and traded his Elantra in under a week. He bought an Optima EX. Thank god it was a different color!

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited March 2014

    Cski

    You cant compare your Optima to a Elantra. LOL 2 different worlds. I also sat in a Elantra and at almost 6'2... 240 felt like a bumber car to me narrow seating and like hightower claimed my size 14 shoe was no match for that pedal..... I liked the new Nissan Sentra. The Civic has been redesigned and improved and the mazda 3 is a very good choice but very noisy engine..

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250

    @dudleyr said:
    Certainly the case for Ford. I think the VW turbos fair a little better in fuel economy.

    My Fusion 2.0 turbo with the optional 19 inch wheels has averaged 27.9 mpg for the year I have had it. It's rated at 26 mpg combined. It will improve from there.

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,024
    edited March 2014

    @ahightower - thanks for the impressions on the Elantra. Whenever Hyundai introduces a new model the automotive press always goes ga-ga at first and declares it the class leader, which is what happened in this case. But not long thereafter in comparisons it was not faring so well, and I have heard numerous people either expressing their dissatisfaction with their purchase, or being disappointed after a test drive and changing their purchase plans. Sounds like not a very good choice.

    @cski - Hyundai has a pattern of overstating power and fuel economy ratings, which does not match up with real-world experience. Many tests of the Sonata Turbo commented to the effect that it didn't drive like it had 270HP under the hood, and I always doubted that rating. I suspect it puts out nowhere near that much power, but like Detroit in the '60s, it gives them something to advertise. I am not a fan of that company.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    The problem with hybrids is the EPA test is at 70 degrees on summer fuel with no ethanol. When you test a hybrid on E-10 in winter temps on winter blend fuel of course it's going to get worse mpg.

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250

    @akirby said:
    The problem with hybrids is the EPA test is at 70 degrees on summer fuel with no ethanol. When you test a hybrid on E-10 in winter temps on winter blend fuel of course it's going to get worse mpg.

    It is pretty obvious that 'expert' reviewer only had half a clue about how hybrid work.

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433

    What I don't get is why people get upset with the manufacturer for not getting the MPG calculated on a totally artificial test. Blame the EPA. they designed the test parameters, the makers just design the car to take the test.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373

    @stickguy

    It is ridiculous & people are crazy when it comes to their car not meeting the EPA fuel economy numbers. They think they will get the EPA HIGHWAY rating driving around town. The car manufacturers play to this by advertising XxxX Car has the best in class highway fuel economy in the mid-sized segment. In real life, who is going to notice the 3 mpg difference between the top 4 cars as far as fuel economy goes in XXX Class?

    The government (or the car companies) need to change their testing standards to reflect real world driving. In addition to MPG, they could use a cost per mile or cost of fuel per 100 miles.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433

    they did change at one point. Maybe just discount the city number another 10%?

    the other issue is defining "city". that to me is more local, as in back roads, modest speeds. Not excessive stops/starts, idling, low speeds and short hops. That is pretty much most of my wifes driving (mine too), and we never get close to the city # around town, especially on the big-engine fatso stuff (odyssey), where I expect about 3-4 MPG less. No way I was getting 20MPG in that use on the van (15-17 depending on weather was more likely). Get about the same 17ish on the RDX, but that easily can beat the highway # (I have had 200+ mile runs breaking 30 in that).

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676

    With my '13 Accord, I got the EPA numbers in Spring, Summer, and Fall. They have slipped somewhat during this very cold winter. The city number is still the same (26) but I'm not getting 36 highway, more like 32 or 33. I don't consider that bad information but just the fact of living in a cold climate with winter gas. I'm pretty happy with the mileage estimates overall.

    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2014

    The only thing I know for sure is my own numbers under heavy congestion. I barely crack 20 mpg. I live 13 miles from the Pentagon. My average speed from my last fill-up was 22 mph, and my average trip is 4.4 miles. My trip computer when I parked last night indicated 19.7 MPG on a car rated at 24/35. Not good.

    In automotive news: Fiat just bought the remaining 41% of Chrysler. It now completely controls the company. (Source: Motortrend, April 2014).

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited March 2014

    @fushigi said:
    I don't get it. How does "Having trim lines .. lowers costs .." lead to "This allows them to offer a .. car .. for just a little bit more money."? Lower manufacturing costs leads to a more expensive product? Sounds like Honda is more interested in a higher profit margin than in giving the consumer a good deal.

    Probably I didn't phrase it very well.

    Since I'm a fan of the Accord, another way to say it would be: Honda gives you a substantially better car for just a modestly higher price. There are lots of good cars in this segment, but for some, including Consumer Reports (which just chose the Accord as its top pick in midsize), Car and Driver (which yet again has put it on their 10 Best list), and Edmunds, the current Accord is something of a benchmark:

    Edmunds.com: "The Accord is in many ways today's segment benchmark, offering a terrific blend of efficiency, driver involvement, comfort, space, refinement and equipment."

    www.edmunds.com/auto-shows/chicago/2014/2014-chicago-auto-show-2015-subaru-legacy-faq.html

    When the all-new 2013 Accord was introduced, it was the only best-selling midsize sedan to earn a "Good" on the IIHS small-offset crash test. The Camry was rated "Poor"--which was essentially a failing grade. It wasn't just chance that made that happen. Honda spent hundreds of millions of dollars in engineering and on super high strength steel to achieve that result with its ACEII structure. Quoting from Honda:

    "The 2013 Accord unit-body uses 55.8-percent high-tensile steel, more than in any previous Accord. In addition, 17.2-percent of the steel is now grade 780, 980 and 1,500 – extremely high grades that have never before been used in any Accord."

    http://automobiles.honda.com/news/press-releases-article.aspx?Article=6825-en

    This is part of what made the Accord not just safer than a Camry, but safer than a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes. Again, that costs a lot of money.

    Camry quickly played catch-up, and added more steel to the 2014.5 Camry, which is now rated "Acceptable" in the IIHS crash test. That's better than failing, but still below the Accord.

    Compared to the Camry LE, which has an essentially identical list price to the Accord LX, the Accord has a more advanced engine, gets higher mpg, has higher safety ratings, has more features (like dual zone climate control standard), etc.

    In other words, Honda is trying with this generation to move the Accord a bit upmarket.

    If you want to the lowest price, there are all sorts of good choices—Altima, Camry, Sonata, etc.

    If you want something a little better than those in most areas, you have to pay somewhat more for the Accord. It's still a good "value," and has a competitive price, but Honda can't as easily put as much in the way incentives on the Accord, because it probably costs them c.$2000 more to make the Accord compared to some of their competitors. It's one of those "you get what you pay for" situations imo.

    It still remains to be seen whether Honda can completely succeed with this strategy, but they've tried to make the Accord the benchmark with this generation. The LX model in particular, which was a more basic car in the last generation, has had essentially thousands of dollars of improvements and equipment added, but the list price went up only a few hundred dollars.

    And, as CSKI and others have said, the Accord Sport, with its premium wheels and tires, power seat, dual exhaust, etc., is one of the best deals in midsize with an msrp starting at $23,715. And you can get get good discounts and financing on that. But you are not currently going to get $5000 off of list, as you can on a few models of Sonata and Altima at my local dealers.

    That's a very lengthy way to try to answer the question from the point of view of a fan and owner of the Accord.

    Sorry it's so long!

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    4 miles is barely long enough for the engine to warm up. In heavy traffic to boot you're lucky to get 19 mpg.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited March 2014

    Truth about Cars reviews the Accord Hybrid. The reviewer Alex Dykes has a very detailed review, including 20+ minute video. In an 800+ mi mpg test, he did get the epa rating of 47 mpg. This has just now become my dream car to replace my 2008 Accord someday. But since I still have almost 2 more years of the HondaCare warranty on my current ride, I think I'll probably wait till the end of 2015.

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/02/review-2014-honda-accord-hybrid-with-video/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUPUevQNY2g&list=UU3qM33hHgedfi7qTKKgIApg&feature=c4-overview

    "...In many ways the Accord Hybrid shares more design themes with the Fisker Karma than a Toyota Prius....Honda went back to the drawing board and designed a true serial hybrid....

    The Accord Hybrid’s impressive 50/45/47 MPG EPA rating (City/Highway/Combined) is even more impressive when you look at some of Honda’s design choices. First off all hybrid trims get tires one size wider (225/50R17 vs 215/55R17) than the gas-only Accord to compensate for the 230 lb weight increase. Secondly Honda chose to trickle-down Acura’s two-mode damper technology into the Accord. These two choices define how the car feels out on the road with the Accord barely nudging the Fusion out of first place when it comes to overall on-road performance....

    ....the Accord’s large greenhouse and low beltline give it the best visibility in the segment....

    With all the numbers tallied the Accord Hybrid is an easy winner. It is more expensive than the competition but that delta shrinks when you account for feature content. The delta becomes immaterial however when you look at our average fuel economy numbers of 47.8 MPG in the Accord and 30 to mid-30s in all of the competition (including that 47 MPG Fusion.) Honda’s hybrid has the best road manners in the pack, the most composed ride, a comfy back seat and a quiet cabin....

    Specifications as tested:

    0-30: 2.8 Seconds

    0-60: 7.0 Seconds

    Cabin noise at 50 MPH: 69 db

    Average Observed Fuel Economy: 47.8 MPG over 835 miles.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681

    EPA mileage.

    You're not supposed to get the EPA's numbers. They are just a guesstimate on what you may achieve.

    Last I recall...they don't even test drive them or measure how much fuel is used. They put it on a dyno and measure the exhaust gas to calculate how much fuel is used (they say it is more accurate) during the simulation.

    The numbers are only supposed to be used to compare to other automobiles.

    So if vehicle-A achieves 20 mpg and vehicle-B achieves 22 mpg for the same test you can only assume if you purchased vehicle-B over vehicle-A that you'd achieve a little better mileage...not that you'd achieve 22 mpg.

    Style...I find driving style affects my mileage more than anything else. I tend to like torque...and slowly accelerating away from a light in a peaky engine doesn't work for me (like the Elantra engine). I stomp it and the little motor revs and screams like it's on fire. I do better (mileage) in a larger engine (or diesel) that has more torque running it at 30% versus a peaky engine at 90%

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    @ivan_99 said:
    EPA mileage.

    You're not supposed to get the EPA's numbers. They are just a guesstimate on what you may achieve.

    Last I recall...they don't even test drive them or measure how much fuel is used. They put it on a dyno and measure the exhaust gas to calculate how much fuel is used (they say it is more accurate) during the simulation.

    They actually measure the burned hydrocarbons from the exhaust which is far more accurate about how much fuel is being combusted. Each gallon of fuel produces a specific amount of exhaust waste.

  • It doers have great MPG.. The Accord Hybrid pictured looks like an LX. .

    It is certainly the most complicated hybrid drive system on the mid size market, as it really has no transmission to speak of (which might make some people happy who had Honda tranny problems in the past). It is just not for me.

    Maybe when I am in the market for a new car the high-mpg choices will be more attractive to me.

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681

    @akirby said:

    Yeah...that's what they say :)

    I just have a hard time believing that a real...real accurate measuring cup (my terminology for an industrial...or medical...fluid measuring device) wouldn't give you a more accurate amount of fuel burnt than looking at exhaust gases.

    I suppose they're the scientists...so I skeptically nod in agreement...

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2014

    @ivan_99 said:
    I suppose they're the scientists...so I skeptically nod in agreement...

    ...or they were delirious from exhaust gasses when they jotted down those numbers....." dude whatever it gets 30 something, right?" (slumps to the floor)

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250

    @cski
    How does your mileage with the Optima compare to the Jeep you had before it?
    I kind on think you have to look at the proportion.

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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