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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    How can Toyota be her favorite brand? If she doesn't know the difference between an Aura and a Camry? Just jumped on the Toyota bandwagon, I guess. :confuse:
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    I sorta did that. Tried the two cars you mentioned, then, I swapped one of my Chryslers for a Jaguar, and, the other for a Saturn Aura.

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I know if it had been a Camry instead of an Aura, I'd be disappointed. I didn't realize that Toyota was her favorite brand.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    The other way to look at it, if Toyota is your favorite brand, almost anything that looks remotely like a Toyota, is a Toyota. In other words, we see what we want to see. See? Anyway, I've found many people are blind to car styling differences.

    And yes, Toyota is her favorite brand. Has been for many years. She drives an Avalon. Her husband drives an Avalon. She'd own a Sienna but her parents have one, so she can just borrow it when she needs it. And she didn't seem to understand why I didn't buy a Toyota instead of the car I did just buy.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    And she didn't seem to understand why I didn't buy a Toyota instead of the car I did just buy.

    Just as elroy5 thinks you should get a 2003 Accord V6, while I think you'd really like an 06 Accord with the 2.4L. :) The world would be so much better if everyone made all the right decisions, like I do. :P That's how most people's minds tend to work, anyway.

    I digress; it's bedtime!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    Well, I did find a nice 2005 Accord but it was sold before I got there. Also a nice, low-miles, well-priced 2008 Civic--that was sold too. Either would have been fine for me. But I'm not married to Honda, or any brand. I could live with any of the cars you see to your right, with the right powertrain/equipment--and price.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    rediculous that the gov wants to encourage the use of less fuel. The gov is the biggest moneymaker as a result of the use of fuel. The gov is now scrambling to find money since fuel is lower in cost, until commerce picks back up and the gov can make it up in volume. If fuel is overpriced, then commerce will slow and less tax will collected. My 22 mpg clunkers are helping the economy. The greenies want me out of them and into Prius'. However, when I stack up $23k plus tax Prius against $18k Malibu, The bump up from 22 mpg to 28 mpg just from my clunker to the Malibu will cut my fuel use from 400 gallons a year to 310 gallons a year. The additional drop to 180 gallons a year from the Prius hardly makes the $5k initial extra cost and sending of Jobs to Japan worth it to me. We are talking 11 gallons a month vs my real estate dropping 10's of thousands as Midwest towns go bankrupt. More gas tax would just accelerate the decay. If you live away from the D3 job zones then maybe you care more about jobs for Japan and will opt for the Prius and laugh about how houses are $500 in Detroit, and call for more gas tax to create demand for when you want to get rid of the Prius.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Your 22 mpg mid-size does not qualify as a clunker. 18 mpg or less is required for that, 22 mpg would be the minimum for a car to replace the "clunker".

    If this compromise becomes law as it has been described, the government will reward anyone junking an 18 mpg clunker and buying a 22 mpg Malibu with a $3500 voucher.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    It does qualify. It is rated 17 combined and gets over 22 in typical easy driving. It got 25.5 on the trip I took in it. My 3.8L is rated at 19 combined and does not qualify. It has hit over 30 mpg on a trip. So the reward may seem like it is for getting a 22 mpg car but that is the worst mileage someone would get out of it. Some 22's might get 32 on trips. I would expect to get 27 driving an L4 Malibu 15 miles to work. I would expect to nearly match that with a 304 HP Camaro V6.

    200 people got laid off by Cummins near Columbus, IN, today. That brings Cummins to 8000 worldwide layoffs so far in this recession. The guy they interviewed on news said he expected to get 72 weeks of unemployment. Ford has converted one big vehicle plant to small vehicles so far and it was expensive. We will see if it ever returns a profit.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    The so-called "reward" is being instituted for a variety of reasons. Less dependence on foreign oil, less air polution by getting "clunkers" with poor mpg ratings off the road. Older vehicles that are only worth a few thousand are probably not as safe either as ABS(if they have it) is probably not working properly, airbags are getting old and may not work as planned and these old vehicles are just generally less cared for then newer, brakes, suspension, etc. New vehicles would be safer for all concerned.

    But the number one reason is create some business for the automakers. It should also help the used car market somewhat as there won't be the clunkers to buy. Gee, maybe some people will even insure their vehicles if they have a little more invested in them. ;)

    The government is probably the biggest user of gasoline in the country what with the military and such. The price of gas going up hurts the federal government much more than getting a few extra dollars from higher gas taxes.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    I agree. The environmental angle is indeterminate, since pollution is generated by both the manufacturing and scrapping processes. The safety angle is one I hadn't thought of, but it does make sense. Still, the need to stimulate the car business is likely the only reason for the timing of this particular proposal.

    As economic stimulus, it will probably work pretty well, and it's more targeted than most Keynesian plans, so it will not be a "bottomless" program. I realize there are potential problems, and it's still quite possible that Congress could snafu the details, but on balance I think it's probably going to have a modest positive impact.

    If they'll pay me to swap my 13 mpg rolling Superfund site (a '94 Ram 1500 pickup) for something more efficient (perhaps a US-built 4-cylinder Ranger, Frontier, or Tacoma good for about 22 mpg), I'll certainly consider it.
  • i360i360 Posts: 74
    The Prius is going to be produced in Blue Springs, Mississippi by 2010, so perhaps wait awhile then you'll be helping out Americans.

    My 2009 Sonata was manufactured in Alabama so I still did my part.

    (I know the cash is kicked overseas but they still employ American workers to assemble)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    Well, technically they employ some American workers who monitor the robots who do the assembly, but there's still American workers involved. ;)
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,679
    The "cash kicked overseas" (profit) is about 5% of the total cost. Labor and overhead that stays in the USA is WAY more the 5%, so that argument is not too good.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    they don't just kick the profit overseas. Most of all R & D for everything foreign automotive is done overseas.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    Most of all R & D for everything foreign automotive is done overseas.

    Well, not everything... for example:
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,679
    Don't forget the Toyota engineering in Ann Arbor, MI, and California.

    Labor is one of the largest costs of producing a car, and if it is assembled in the USA with USA produced components, then I know that I have put a good amount of money into the USA. My Camry built in Kentucky had a 75% North American part content.

    Of the mid-sized cars, it is one of the most "American".
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Of the mid-sized cars, it is one of the most "American".

    So is the Mazda6. It's assembled in Michigan at the same plant as the Ford Mustang, and IIRC also has a high NA part content as well.

    It's ironic, since the Fusion/Milan twins are assembled in Mexico...
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,679
    Yes, you are correct, Accord too. Fusion NA part content was only 50% at the time.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    Curious about the proposed 200 development jobs in Ca. for Hundai. That is a tiny amount. Their new plant is 1/3 the size of our small High school. What % of the 200 will be relocating in from Korea? I would guess the top 3 tiers of mgmt and then some.

    Soc Sec will now be BK 4 years sooner. If we can eliminate all US Auto tech jobs and UAW jobs, maybe we can move that BK date forward a little more. I would guess it would take 30 plants the size of the Honda one in Greensburg to replace the amt paid into soc sec by the 8000 R&D GM workers who recently lost their jobs in Warren, Mi.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    that includes the truck plant in St. Cath. and all other Mexican and Canadian plants as well as the Aveo and the G8.

    The new Civic Plant in Greensburg will alone replace 250,000 currently imported Civics. And they do that with 890 robots and even fewer US hires. They were also the first to be cut in the downturn.

    Discussing the NA content of a US sold GM is like spitting on a bonfire to put it out.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    So is the Mazda6. It's assembled in Michigan at the same plant as the Ford Mustang, and IIRC also has a high NA part content as well.

    Actually, the Mazda6 has only 45% U.S. / Canadian parts. But, it is assembled by the UAW because Ford builds the Mustang on the same line. There are vastly different quality procedures though. It was rather strange. The UAW worker essentially needs to know how to built two totally different cars by two companies that implement completely different building and inspection procedures. Rather tough if you ask me.

    On a side note, I had an opportunity to tour the AAI plant in Flat Rock, MI. I got a nice history lesson from the Mazda North American Operations employees up there and the tour was directed by Ken Bagdon, the chief vehicle quality control assurance inspector of the Mazda6. Really great guy.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Labor is one of the largest costs of producing a car

    I thought I'd read that it is only about 10% :confuse:
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Does anyone actually decide which midsize car to buy, based on US content, or where the car is built, or what company sells it? Would you buy a car you think is "more American" over another "less American" car that is higher quality? Judging buy sales numbers, not many people do.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    You might try reading the linked pages again. It's not about proposed jobs, but current jobs. The sites highlighted on those pages are not "plants" but design and testing centers. There's also the plants in Alabama and soon in Georgia, all the dealerships and the U.S. headquarters, plus the jobs for U.S.-based suppliers, and truck drivers (someone has to haul the cars from the plants and docks to dealers),

    How many jobs would be created in the U.S. if the U.S. auto companies did their manufacturing in the U.S. vs. places like Mexico, Canada, and Europe? Or is this a "it's OK for me, not OK for you" kind of thing?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    The sites highlighted on those pages are not "plants" but design and testing centers.

    They are MARKETING and testing centers. I was investigating when I was job shopping.

    Even Toyota still designs most of their cars in Japan with some "Americanized recommendations" coming from Ann Arbor. Non-world cars like the Venza (which chimes to put a seat belt on with my laptop bag or a pizza on the front seat) and the Sienna have more input.

    How many jobs would be created in the U.S. if the U.S. auto companies did their manufacturing in the U.S. vs. places like Mexico, Canada, and Europe? Or is this a "it's OK for me, not OK for you" kind of thing?

    How many jobs will be lost when all the engineering jobs go to India and all the manufacturing is in Russia? No manufacturing jobs, no engineering jobs, who cares. There won't be anyone left in Michigan to kick anyone out of their houses.
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    There is a difference between "assembled" and "manufactured". I have a close friend who presently works for a large Japanese wafer manufacturing company. Right now, they are laying off Americans, qualified technicians and engineers. The company is bringing in Japanese nationals to take their jobs. About 5 years ago I had position that allowed me to visit a couple of Japanese transplants. I noticed right away, all the tooling, support and parts are Japanese. Many of the suppliers were Japanese transplants. Get the connection? Many of the higher paying jobs were Japanese. Americans were just labor. This is information Americans don't here in the news.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    So those companies that have invested in the U.S. by building plants and DESIGN centers here should be praised, I guess.

    I have pointed this out before, but all the cars to the right are built in the U.S. except the Passat (and VW's new mid-sizer will be built here) and Fusion. So I don't see what all the fuss re where Toyota and Hyundai and Honda build their mid-sized cars is all about.

    Anyway, this is supposed to be about the CARS, isn't it?
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 750
    Oh...please. It's a Japanese co. So, it's fair that most of their upper managers are Japanese. How many top-level manager who run GM in China are Chinese?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I know that AAI in Flat Rock, MI is like that. The UAW "assembles" the Mazda6, however, the plant is filled with Japanese people from Mazda roaming around EVERYWHERE. I would assume they are engineers of some sort. 30% of the Mazda6 is imported from Japan, excluding drive train components. Those too come from Japan, including the 2.5L which is now brought over from Japan in addition to the 2.5L's produced in Mexico.

    I believe Honda and Toyota also have their drive trains shipped over from Japan. For our economy's sake, I would rather have these cars assembled by Americans. At least it means we are employed. From my experience, a car assembled over here is not better or worse then the same product assembled in Japan. I'm sure most of you will disagree....
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