Tires, tires, tires

anonymous02 · July 2002

I see.

I thought he was sticking with the same brand and type of tire.

If so, going wider at the same height would ride the same or better, right? Going taller, he would only get a smoother (albeit less "responsive") ride, right?

Yes, it is important to watch the payload information. Also, make sure to go with the recommended pressures.

ctdrice · July 2002

I am looking for new tires for my CRV and am bewildered by all of the different choices and the marketing descriptions for them. The two most important things for me are traction and quiet ride. My current OEM Bridgestones are definately not quiet

My question is: Can you look at two different tread patterns and get an idea which one is quieter? Are there visual clues that typically signify a quieter tire?

I know that big gaps can translate to better snow traction along with more noise. Circumferential grooves can mean better wet / hydroplaning traction. But I have seen some tires that have big grooves on the outside yet are described as quiet. Do we have to believe the marketing descriptions?

Thanks

stickguy · July 2002

try tirerack.com. They rate tires on, among other things, quietness. You can compare different brands also.

ctdrice · July 2002

I have looked at tirerack.com and it is very informative. Unfortunately (but understandably) they only rate tires they sell. I have seen some tires available locally that aren't mentionedm, like the Big O brand

I was hoping for some tips to get a general feel of how tires might feel/sound.

stickguy · July 2002

if you want premium ride/quietness/etc., I doubt you are going to get it from a discount brand. Since you seem to be picky, pay a little extra for a higher quality brand.

tinner · July 2002

Thanks for the comments. First, yes I'm going from the OE Goodyear Wrangler ST, 225/75R16 to the Michelins. Not being too knowledgable I had looked at the difference in diameter 29.2 for Goodyear and 29.5 for the 245/70R16 Michelins and the math looked like this wouldn't cause a speedo problem also the Michelin chart says 710 rev/mile(225/75) vs 709 rev/mile(245/70) so I figured/hoped that would be ok.

As far as the load capacity I failed my homework assignment on that. I had looked on the Michelin chart and noticed that the 245/70 max capacity was 100 lbs greater than the 225/75 but had not look at the Goodyear which was 80 lbs greater than the 245/70 Michelin. So the way I read the Jeep manual it says the current load capacity with the OE tires is now 1150 lbs. It would then go to 830 with the 245/70 Michelins. Can't say as I like that at all but if I went with the standard 225/75 Michelins the capacity would be down to 430 which is way not acceptable. Does it sound like I ran through this correctly?

bretfraz · July 2002

Looking at the C/T spec sheet, the 225/75-16 tire has a load rating of one (1) pound *more* than the 245/70-16 tire. So if you want the 245's you might as well stick with them.

As long as you are aware of the load ratings then its not a problem for you. Just gotta be careful of overloading. Yet another by-product of the Exploder/Firestone fiasco.

I had a neighbor with a JGC who couldn't wait to remove the OE Goodyear's. Installed a set of C/T's and loved them. I'm sure you will too.

tinner · July 2002

I just went to the Michelin site and went through the process of letting them select a tire for me and for the cross terrain suv they picked the 225/75R16. I sent them a note expressing surprise that this Michelin had 720 lbs less capacity than the current Goodyears and was this really correct. We'll see what they say.

IF this number crunching is right the max load capacity of my Jeep would only be 430 lbs. So put two 215 pounders in the front seat and the vehicle is at maximum. This seems crazy to me. Either I'm way off base with these numbers or my respect for Michelin was way misfounded.

bretfraz · July 2002

I looked at the wrong column on the C/T spec sheet. Here's the correct numbers:

225/75-16 load rating: 1804 lbs at 35psi
245/70-16 load rating: 1904 lbs at 35psi

So my numbers are backwards. You pick up 400 lbs of payload capability with the 245 Michelin tires.

On to the Goodyear's:

225/75-16 load rating: 1984 lbs but no PSI rating (that's odd).

So, I was correct in my first post about load ratings but incorrect in my second. My apologies.

wenb · July 2002

I agree wtih the above post that the quietest tires are likely to be premium designs.The computer design gets more powerful all the time. Look for brands you trust that specificly mention features that affect quietness. If these make sense to you, all the better.One scheme is to randimize the tread pattern.Pirelli claims their new tires P6 and P7 are designed to give quiet performance over the life of the tire.You can be sure Bridgestone ,Michelin, Goodyear are doing the same. Touring tires may be quieter than high or ultra high performance tires, judged within the same brands.

tinner · July 2002

Not sure where you were wrong unless it was the C/T. I understood what you were saying and it matched the numbers I looked up. I appreciate your getting me straight on the max load because I was overlooking the reduction that is present with Michelin. I will probably go with the 245/70 Michelins but I don't like the fact I'm loosing 320 lbs with them. Think I'll see if Michelin answers me and let this cool off for a few weeks and see how I feel about it before making a final decision.

ctdrice · July 2002

I also agree that the premium tires will probably be the quietest and that discount brands probably wouldn't satisfy me. However, Big O is not a discount brand. It is a regional (primarily the west) brand that designs its own tires to match the conditions out here (high heat amoung others). It certainly is not a discount brand, but offers tires from $50 or so per tire to over $130/tire. Unfortunately it doesn't sell enough tires to get tested/rated along with the "big name" tires. And of course, tirerack does not sell that brand.

By the way, how do you judge a higher quality brand? Is it only those that spend big bucks advertising so they have to charge more for their tires? Could a company make a high quality tire and not advertise heavily or sell for a premium price?

So my question still stands: What are some visual clues that might indicate a quieter tire? I am wary of marketing descriptions and would like to add some real world experience.

anonymous02 · July 2002

I would look for a continuous tread around the tire. The Firestone 721 I think was like that, and maybe the Goodyear polyglas?

Anything which doesn't have rubber pick up and then hit the pavement I'd think.

bretfraz · July 2002

They are owned by TBC Corp, who also owns Tire Kingdom and several other retailers. They consider themselves to be the largest independent marketer/distributor of private labeled tires. Brands marketed and distributed by TBC are Cordovan, Multi-Mile, Sigma, and Big O. They also market an additional 15 brands. Plus their retail outlets sell the major brands like Michelin and BFGoodrich.

TBC purchases tires from a variety of suppliers but their biggest producer is Goodyear with over 50% of their total tires made by them.

The big issue with private-labeled tires is not the marketing but the R&D and engineering that develops them. Lots of people believe that the only diff between the big brands and the little ones is marketing but that's not always true. The big companies will always keep their best technology and production developments for themselves. Just because a Big O tire is made in a Goodyear plant does not mean its the same thing as a Goodyear tire.

I think if you look past the marketing claims you will find what makes one tire better than another. The answer to what makes a quiet tire is easy to find if you'll do the research.

gambiaman · July 2002

The Michelin tires are rated as listed below:
225/75-16 load rating: 1804 lbs at 35psi
245/70-16 load rating: 1904 lbs at 35psi
Or 4 times 1904 lbs.(per tire)=7616 lbs. minus vehicle weight plus payload capacity (4072+1100)= 5172 lbs. Four Michelin CT's are rated for 7616 lbs. and your gross vehicle weight is only 5172 lbs. so the Michelins and GY's are both rated for more than your vehicle can carry so you are not giving up capacity with the Michelins.
By the way I replaced the GY Integitys on my RX300 with Michelins CT's about 5k miles ago and couldn't be happier. Much better traction and just as quiet and not as squirrelly.

tinner · July 2002

Thanks for the info. My grandson had me occupied for the last few days. When he left yesterday morning I went through the same reasoning you did and concluded that all was ok with any of the mentioned choices. Just for curiosity did you go with the 245/70 ?

gambiaman · July 2002

I went with original tire size (225/70) cause I basically had to. A 235/70 will fit on my RX300 but barely (and nothing larger) so I just went with original size. The 235/70 had less tread than the 225/70 for some reason-11.0 vs 11.5/32nds. If I were you and the 245/70 fits I would go with it over the 225/75. On your vehicle the 245/70 comes as standard equipment on some of the versions unless I'm mistaken. The only problem with the Michelin CT is cost but they are rated for 65K miles so I will not have to worry about tires for a long time. And they are an excellent tire. I used to routinely spin the GY Ingregity tires in rain without really trying. I can not spin the CT's when I'm trying so I assume they will stop me much better in a panic stop if needed.

wenb · July 2002

The best visual clue is a picture of the tire. Go to the web sites and look at the pictures of the tires.Most sites will let you enlarge the view.I picked Pirelli as an example because they intrest me as a company.I don't belive they have bought into all season tires like the american market demands. Their new tires P6 comfort, P7 performance, do not mention snow performance. They do mention quiet performance.Check out the picture at pirellip7.com. I would think that technology being equal a summer tire would be easier to make quiet than an all season.There are not that many tire makers. At some point the technology will always filter down to the cheaper tires. My point is tires get better all the time. I think there is some leap frogging in regards to
best tire. I am willing to take a chance to try new tires. Some people want proven technology.I do not have a favorite brand. I might want a Dunlop allseason for my mild winter tire. I would Try the Pirelli P7 or Michelin Pilot Exalto. for summer tire.

tinner · July 2002

Yes, the 245/70R16 were an optional so that's not a problem. Also for some reason they are cheaper than the 225/75R16. So that's what I'm going with. When you put a 225 tread to tread with a 245 you can tell a real difference. Wet weather performance was one of the considerations so it's good to hear confirmation.
Thanks

tinner · July 2002

Ok, I'm the guy with the Jeep wondering about lower load ratings on Michelin vs Goodyear tires.

Today I received a call from Michelin. Very nice and seemingly knowledgable guy. He explained that a year ago the rating on the Michelin Cross Terrain SUVs would have been 1984 but now is reduced to 1804, a factor of 1.1. If the Cross Terrains were used on a light truck OR passenger car they would remain at 1984 but on SUVs the load rating is reducted by a factor of 1.1. This is the practice for all tire makers and is done because tires on SUVs are subjected to more stress. He mentioned weight and driving characteristics as the reason. So according to him when you see the Goodyear tires show up as 1984 that is for light truck but when used on an SUV they would be derated to 1804.

I was impressed that Michelin called to answer my question. Daimier Chrysler on the other hand sent the following answer when I ask what the minimum tire load rating was for my vehicle.

"Your vehicle was designed to operate with the specific tires that were installed at the factory. We would not recommend that you change the tire specifications on the vehicle. Therefore, we would be unable to advise you further on your tire inquiry."

Obviously Daimier Chrysler was too lazy to look up the answer to my question.

bretfraz · July 2002

And thanks for posting it.

Sounds like a little CYA happening at DCM. Their response makes sense to me as I'm sure Jeep's chassis and suspension engineers worked closely with Goodyear so the Jeep and the tires would work well together. Personally, I don't blame them for their answer, if only taken from the Explorer debacle perspective.

But its good info nonetheless.

kyleknicks · July 2002

can anyone tell me what is so great about these tires?

dunlop sp a2's? are these performance tires?

yurakm · July 2002

see here: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/hpas.jsp

wenb · July 2002

I ran into info while comparing tires. It was recommended that owners of SUV's should stay with the same type of tire that came with the vehicle.They stated that a switch between allseason type tire to All terrain type tire could throw of the handling enough to make the Suv more prone to roll. This seemed a little drastic to me. they did recommend checking the owners manual for tire guidence. I would consult the tire maker to ask if there differnt styles have very differnt handling traits.

porknbeans · July 2002

I think that you need to select the type of tire for the type of driving you do. If the tires on your vehicle are all terrain and you want to improve the handling (because you do more highway driving) then I think you need to look at a different tire (which is exactly what I'm doing). I'm hoping that by going with a different type of tire my handling will actually improve.

WRT asking the tire maker for advice I would be wary. The best tire for you may not be one that they sell, but they would sure try.

wenb · July 2002

Porkbeans, I think your way of shopping is what most people would do. As far as asking the manufacturer, I would only do that regarding both tires from one manufacturer.I know that Toyo tires had a well regarded all season tire the Open Country 410. Their newest SUV tire is an all season ,the Open Country A/T. One trend I noticed with some all season tires, is they have a narrower tread width.I imagine this improves ride, and it probably helps prevent heat buildup. But I wonder what having less footprint has on handling.Also some tire specs don't give tread width ,just section width.

tboner1965 · July 2002

on a high center of gravity vehicle.

That is probably the concern of the vehicle maker. If they planned on the vehicle sliding rather that gripping, then at some point, with a sticker tire than what the engineers planned for, during a hard corner, the vehicle could roll.

The question is, how many lateral G's until it rolls, and can you reach that figure with the tires you are switching to?

My advice, if you are looking to improve handling, get something with a lower center of gravity

I believe that will provide the best handling. (Handling, as I understand it is cornering, braking and how composed the vehicle remains during such transitions.)

TB

tidester · July 2002

The question is, how many lateral G's until it rolls...

With "sticky tires," onset of rollover will occur when the lateral acceleration is (L/2h)² g's where L is the separation between the left and right tires and h is the height of the center of gravity. You can plug in the numbers!

tidester
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wenb · July 2002

I am tempted to compare vehicles somtimes in regard to roll resistance. However because there is no real world govt. test you can't do it. There are a few static formula test. The current 5 star ratting test seems to be a sham. With the move to tall light cars, I am concerned that while everyone is focused on SUV's the cars will be just as roll prone.

tboner1965 · July 2002

Looking at the 2002 Explorer, 4door, 4wd, a popular SUV, and using your formula.

Assume the width of the vehicle is the value L.

To get to 1G lateral acceleration before the thing can roll, the value h has to be 1/2 L or about 36" off the ground. Since this thing has 8" of ground clearance and is about 72" tall as well.

Hmmm, I wonder where the c/g is of this vehicle?

For the earlier Explorers, the road holding index is listed as .69 to .7g's for the 2000 models.

These were Shorter than the current 2002's (67.5 vs about 72") and narrower (70.2 vs about 72")

So I really wonder if the new ones are less prone to rollover, given they are significanly taller, but not proportionally wider.

Anyway, using the formula given in the above post, and assuming 67.5 as the value for L, we can figure that the c/g of the 2000 Explorer is about 42" off the ground. Wow.

FWIW, 42" is just 6" shorter than a Miata at 48"

Ok, yeah I was bored

TB

jrdh23a · July 2002

I have a Lexus SC430 with 245/45/18 run flat tires. They are Bridgestone Potenza tires. As far as I can determine, only Bridgestone and Goodyear make this size in a run flat. Does anybody know of other makers that I could look at. My experience with these two brands in the past has not been good. Thanks for your input.

pemarsh · July 2002

I decided to purchase the Michelin Cross Terrains for my Toyota Sequoia. I went to National Tire and Battery, Discount Tires, Suburban Tires, and Just Tires (all in the Chicago area)

The prices and services are all very similar. Does it matter in any other way where I purchase these tires???? All opinions welcome.

bretfraz · July 2002

Well, if all those places are about the same as far as price, warranty, service, and related goes, then it sorta depends on who you'd prefer doing business with. I'm sure each has their own advantages and whatnot. Here's something to consider: Where will you go and who will help you if you have a problem? It may not be a big deal if you only drive locally but if you drive long distances then having a national chain able to take care of you means a lot. One place I think people should consider buying tires from is WalMart. Now before everyone laughs consider that they are nationwide, in every little town in N. America. If you have a tire problem any store can help you. It's terrific for those who drive a lot but don't want to worry about where they'll take their car if a problem crops up. So even if WalMart isn't on your list, who would be comparable to them? NTB? Discount? Maybe its a question to pose to each store before you buy. Just a thought for the peanut gallery.

larryak · August 2002

I just had a tire patched by a local gas station. The just plugged the hole (caused by a nail) from the outside. Did not unmount the tire. Tire is size 60/225, HR rated Firestone Wilderness passenger car tire (NOT a truck tire).

The car (and subsequently the tires) have 25K miles on them. The tread is wearing nicely, I expect another 25K miles, at least.

After reading the owner's manual, I'm wondering if I should take it to a tire dealer and have it patched instead. Any thoughts?

joes230 · August 2002

My Infiniti G35 sedan (non-sport) has 215/55-17 Bridgestone Turanza EL42 tires. I'm thinking about going to 225/55-17 or 225/50-17 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S on the same 17x7 rims. Any problems with this?

Has anyone moved from a touring or grand touring tire to an ultra-high performance all-season tire like the Pilot Sport A/S? How was the noise, ride, and handling? Any other comments on the Pilot Sport A/S? What about Pilot HX MXM4 vs the Pilot Sport A/S for this application?

-- Joe

porknbeans · August 2002

I have a nail or screw removed from my tires every 4 months or so (I'm an architect in a design/build company). Almost all of them are replaced with a plug without removing the tire. I've got original tires on my Durango and have put 66k on them without any wear problems (performance is another matter - not due to the plugs). IMO, and I'm not an expert, most small punctures are easily patched with a plug without any further problems. Good luck.

fxs · August 2002

Pilot sport A/S are a good choice. I could only afford BF Goodrich Gforce KDWS for my WRX. The Pilots are are stronger tire by design, look sexier, plus have that added Kevlar layer. I might upgrade when my baby gets out of diapers.

anonymous02 · August 2002

I bought a small kit myself from an auto store or Wally World or something. It works great. It comes with a little rasp thing, and a needle type thing to put the plug in with. You put in the plug, and then just snip it off even with your tread.

Of course, I never quite put the same amount of trust into plugged tires, figuring it must cause a little heat buildup or something. I usually keep it under a 100 mph after a plug. I also don't doubt it would slightly affect balancing.

heng · August 2002

They had 32K miles on them and still had twice the minimum tread left (good for another 10k miles) but they were horrible on the highway!

Even at 30 mph you started to hear the tire noise. By 70 mph the steering wheel was even vibrating. Not severe like a a flat spotted tire or wayward belt but totally aggravating.

What's weird also was that rotating the tires had no effect on the noise/vibes and there was no tire cupping or tread feathering. The tread on all four tires were evenly worn. They looked perfect.

My son (principal driver) wanted to get more miles out the tires but I said no way after he took me on a highway cruise. Not only does it contibute to driver fatigue but it can't be good for the suspension and steering rack.

Went with Dunlop SP sport A2s based on tire rack survey info that in summary they are a performance tire with a quiet ride and decent light snow traction. I'm not quite convinced on the snow traction part because of the tread design but my perferred tire (Michelin X-one/plus) is not available in 215/60-15. It was immediately evident we got rid of the tire noise as we drove away from the tire store (more on store) and confirmed when we were able to get on the highway. (didn't have a chance to explore the Dunlop handling characteristics)

Got the Dunlops from Poor Freddie's in NYC (Jamaica, Queens?)for $80 apiece while passing through. That includes mounting and balancing but not tax. I figured that price (before tax) matched on-line prices when you factored in shipping plus mounting & balancing costs. Poor Freddie's is a big operation with all new Hunter balancing and alignment equipment. I'd recommend them if you live in the area. Say Hi to 'Junior' if you do.

rs_petty · August 2002

Any opinions on these tires for a light pickup (2wd). Reviews on tirerack appear pretty favorable.

bretfraz · August 2002

These have been talked about several times in here. Go back and read some old posts for comments.

My opinion is that they are nice LT tires for those who want a car-like ride and good 3 season traction (not the greatest tire in snow). The Michelin LTX M/S might last longer but they're more expensive. So I think the Dueler H/L is a very good value and a fine choice.

wlbrown9 · August 2002

I found this discussion a little late, but I think I know why there are 2 sizes offered on the Jeep Grand Cherokee. My wife drives a '00 Laredo that came with the factory tow package which includes a 3.73 rear gear. It had the 245/70/16 tire option. I think they almost almost always add the larger tire package with the towing option. I could not find the base rear gear ratio, but it is probably 3.42 or so. I don't remember seeing one on the lot with tow package and not the larger tires.

I just finished looking at options on this size tire and ended up ordering (ordered 8/13, got e-mail 8/14 they had been shipped already) Michelin LT Select tires from WalMart (245/70/16). Michelin makes X Radial LT tires sold only at Sam's Club, BJ's & Costco. Checking the specs of both of these at Michelin web site shows them to be very close to each other, but not identical and similar to the LTX MS Michelin. WalMart had these for $110.96 each. Sam's was about $123/tire. Lifetime rotation/balance, mounting, road hazard is 9.76, plus TN 9.25 sales tax should total about $528 at WalMart. WalMart has more locations than Sam's and was cheaper. ONLY drawback is they have to order them and delivery is 6-8 days.....so, if one has to be replaced, I will have to wait for delivery...both our vehicles has full size, real spares. BTW, our Grand Cherokee has Goodyear Wrangler SR/A 245/70/16 ($133 at Sam's) that have a lot of life left after 36,000 miles. I'm putting the Michelin's on my Trooper with 38,000 miles, replacing Bridgestone 684s that are not worn out, but have less tread left than the Wranglers. Plus, they have always had a little vibration at freeway speed...never been real happy with them.

rec3 · August 2002

The local tire dealer has a brand called American (Prospector AT and AP styles for SUVs) which he says are made by Michelin. He also sells Michelin and was not willing to directly compare these tires to Michelin, but he did say his customers were very satisfied with the American radials which are substantially cheaper than Michelin.

Has anyone had experience with this brand?

bretfraz · August 2002

And found that American Car Care Center's have a private label tire made by Michelin (so they state). This type of private labelling is very common in the tire biz (I posted some info about Big O Tires here awhile back). American tires appear to be made in Michelin factories but who know who owns the molds and who designs the tires. Kinda funny to read some people calling it a "Michelin house brand"; implying its the same tire as a Michelin without the name. I wouldn't bet on any of that.

Here's American's website: http://www.accconline.com/radials.htm

To me these tires are just like any other no-name tire brand. Some are good and some aren't.

stever · August 2002

Also, Michelin owns Uniroyal/Goodrich, and the Prospector tires appear to be made in a "Uniroyal/Goodrich" factory in Alabama or Indiana. The tire code could verify the factory for sure. But as Bretfraz says, that won't tell you whether the tires are any good or not.

Steve
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ian18 · August 2002

After researching tires for my Olds Intrigue, I just purchased a set of the LH-30 to replace the original Goodyear RSA tires. Main reasons for my choice were speed rating (H), dealer recommendation, mileage warranty (70,000), reviews, and price.

After taking an 1100 mile trip last week I can report that the tires have met my expectations. They have very good handling, a nice ride and are very quiet. If anyone else is looking for an H-rated tire they should check these out.

bretfraz · August 2002

Developed by Michelin North America (MNA) this is a terrific e-tool to help anyone decide which tire to buy. Read the FAQ's for info on how they evaluate tires. And be sure to bookmark this website:

http://www.tireadvisor.com

Here's an interview with the guy at Michelin who created Tire Advisor:
http://www.tirereview.com/tred6.htm

capriracer · August 2002

I just have been made aware of this discussion group and thought I'd add my 2 cents worth on a subject I know a lot about - tires.

The biggest problem with plugs is that they leak. Not 100%, but often enough that they shouldn't be trusted at all!! The tire industry considers them temporary repairs. They should be replaced by a proper repair ASAP!!!

And anyone driving 100 mph on a tire that has been repaired by a plug (and doesn't know what damage is inside) is living dangerously.

capriracer · August 2002

I think you are going to find that most of the discussions about accident rollovers is because the vehicle left the road and was "tripped". I'm afraid the issues of importance here are center of gravity and understeer / oversteer tendancies, which kind of gets into wheelbase. While vehicle manufacturers spend a lot of time testing for rollover tendancy and trying to dial it out, the accident statistics heavily favor cars, not SUV's - silk purse theory!

wlbrown9 · August 2002

I agree that plugs are not a good permanent repair. I just replaced the original Bridgestones on my Trooper with Michelin LT Selects at WalMart. One of the tires had a slow leak the past couple of weeks. It turned out to be a plug that was done almost 2 years ago (that I never had patched). I was tired of the Bridgstones after 2 years and 38,000 miles, so I did not bother.

A guy I have dealt with for years at a local tire/repair shop told me that plugging a tire could lead to eventual failure, allowing air or water to get into the interior and cause separation or corrosion. He said this could possibly be a reason for the dealer/manufacturer to deny warranty coverage. If you get a shop to repair the flat, there is not usually that much difference in pricing for plug vs. patch.

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