Tires, tires, tires

sduford · November 2004

Good point, but in this case I'm talking of the Michelin X-Ice, and both are QR speed rated.

18fan · November 2004

Ronaries: Have you had the tires checked to see if it is the tires themselves that may be out of round? If they are, that could be causing your vibration.

pathstar1 · November 2004

I also found the Nokian WR pricing reflected differences you wouldn't expect. My vehicle (2001 Pathfinder LE) calls for an uncommon size in a 16" tire. A larger tire (265/70-16) is about 10-15% less expensive. I concluded it was quantity made/sold that affected the price. I did go with the stock "more expensive" size, as I didn't want to deal with any fitment problems.

ronaries10 · November 2004

I'm not sure ... the Firestone dealer has balanced them several times ... isn't that the same thing? I asked them if the tires could be malfunctioning & they acted like that was impossible.
Ronaries
Columbus OH

<<Ronaries: Have you had the tires checked to see if it is the tires themselves that may be out of round? If they are, that could be causing your vibration.>>

18fan · November 2004

Ronaries: Balancing and the tires being out of round are completely different. Obviously, a balancing issue can be corrected by having the wheels rebalanced. Tires being out of round has more to do with the manufacturing process and whether more of the rubber, chemicals, etc sat in one portion (or side, etc) of the mold than was supposed to happen. Often, a tire that is out of round cannot be corrected with balancing weights. You may need to replace the tires in order to remove the vibration you are experiencing now.

capriracer · November 2004

I think what is confusing the whole issue is that Ronaries sometimes has a non-vibrating vehicle. This would seem to eliminate both balance and runout (and force variation) as the sources.

EXCEPT: for temporary sources, such as flat spotting - which is why most of the folks in this forum are leaning that direction (and it seems the Firestone store is, too!)

But I think the best thing that can be done is to gather more data.

When does it occur? When doesn't it occur?

Is it speed related? Is it certain highways? Is it felt in the seat or the steering wheel?

Hope this helps.

imidazol97 · November 2004

Your dealer may not want to replace tires that are not quite round enough or that are defective internally and don't roll round with weight on the tire.

The crush amount of the sidewall and or belt in the tire isn't the same around the tire. This can be measured by a balancer that has been out a while and is in many tire stores. It's a Hunter 9700.

http://128.242.141.111/pub/search/FindGSP9700.cfm
Click the above link to get a list of stores in your area which have them. The force measured by this machine should be below 12 or so to give a good ride from a tire, even though it's balanced. IF your tires don't do that and you value your ride quality, change tires.

I had a set of Firestones put on a car when the original equipment Firestones wore out. The tires shook all the way to Charleston and back. When I talked to the dealer they never questioned that there was something wrong in the tires, they just put on the Michelins which are what I've bought ever since. They're usually round and roll round. Apparently the dealer knew there were problems with the FR480s that were put on my car.

edh · November 2004

I always ask how many do you have in stock - and if they only have 2 and you are buying two guess what - they install and sell two even if one is out of round (but balances great.

same with buying from tire rack - you are stuck with the tire once you get it less you go back thru the return process.

I wonder if there is a flow path for "BAD" tires back to the manufacturer????????? I bet not.- like crappy wood at the lumber yard - it gets sold to someone.

ronaries10 · November 2004

Thanks for the several replies to this issue. Let me provide some additional info requested -

A. the wheels are factory originals - I've not had them tested but they look good and ire dealer has raised no "out of round" issues about them.
B. Interestingly, the Firestone/Brdgstn shops in Columbus are not listed as owning a Hunter 9700. However, Goodyr does & can do job during the week... so I'll get some more info.
C. Vibration occurs soon after rebalancing ... vibration may start in the mid 60s mph range, but almost always at 74 mph. The vibration is felt in the steering wheel, and sometimes in very modest front end vibration. (a new driveshaft was installed 4k miles ago).
D. The tires are 1 yr old on car, only 3500 miles. Date of manufacture of tires is 10 months earlier than install date. Tires are Bridgstn Potenza RE950.
E. I'll give the Firestone dealer a call to see what they say about "out of round" & testing for it ... but I don't expect much at this point (Let's hope they have heard of the test!)
Thanks again,
Ron.

imidazol97 · November 2004

I believe Discount Tires uses the Hunter 9700 and the NTB chain (which I sorely miss here in Dayton area after they were closed) were open in Columbus a long time. I believe they are Tire Kingdom stores now. You might want to visit them. There may be other stores in Columbus who can help.

The problem with tires is that the manufacturers have not kept up with advances in cars and their suspensions and stiffness and light weight in non sprung parts (a-arms, etc.).

If might be worth your time to pay one of these to rebalance and check for out-of-round in crush amount for the sidewall to see if it's your tires or the car. The Hunter checks the rim and can tell the technician where to move the tire on the rim to minimize out of roundness.

The captive tire stores like Firestone and Goodyear are low on my list for wanting to fix their own problems. A tire store like the others where they have employees who come, learn, and stay, are much better. The example I gave in earlier post was a local chain who sells all brands. They realized the Firestones I had weren't going to be fixed by rebalancing. They sold me the Michelins by trading me out (I think the original quote was a little more per tire.)

They

idntnvu · November 2004

I currently have Goodyear Wranglers on my '99 Explorer XLS, and even though they still have probably just under half the tread left, they are cupping, I can't keep them balanced and recently they've started "whomping" and it's getting more pronounced. So, I'm probably going to get a new set around the first of the year, and keep these as spares since they're still pretty good. Any suggestions?

I saw a set of Michelin Cross Terrains on an Explorer tonight that looked pretty good. I'd like something all terrain, but they don't have to be.

capriracer · November 2004

"I wonder if there is a flow path for "BAD" tires back to the manufacturer?????????"

It's called an adjustment. Every tire manufacturer has procedures to send these tires back so improvements can be made.

Recognizing this, there are 3 problems:

1) Some problems aren't really tire problems, so the manufacturer can't really fix them. Like vibrations caused by alignment wear (see the cupping example above), which is why tire manufacturers will only accept relatively new tires for vibration adjustment.

2) Tire dealers tend to be customer friendly, leading to the impression that a given set of tires may be "bad" when the dealer is actually just buying the customers goodwill.

3) Tire dealers also tend to "pretend" they have a lot of technical information. Some do, some don't! They also tend to think that if a tire is adjustable, it must be faulty, and they give that impression back to the customer.

"The problem with tires is that the manufacturers have not kept up with advances in cars and their suspensions and stiffness and light weight in non sprung parts (a-arms, etc.)."

On the surface this seems to be true, but it leaves the impression that the problem is strictly a "tire" issue.

As was pointed out, vehicle manufacturers have done a lot to vehicles that make the vehicles more sensitive to wheel end vibrations. In order to have non-vibrating vehicles, tires would need to be improved.

Unfortunately:

1) The general trend was that vehicles changed faster than the tire companies could keep up. 15 years ago the limits are twice what they are today, and even that isn't enough. The type of equipment involved in the tire factories is multi-million dollar / multi-year projects.

2) There are some vehicles that are so sensitive that you need almost perfect tires (and wheels and mounting concentricity).

3) Other components also haven't keep up. But because it is easy to change a tire, and because usually changing a tire "fixes" the problem, all the emphasis is placed there.

Hope this helps.

donaldm1 · November 2004

My Lincoln LS came with Bridgestones that could not be made vibration free after several balances and the special Discount tire balance job. Finally after 16,000 miles Lincoln replace all with Michelins and wow what a difference not only vibration free, but a remarkably smoother ride.

kcwolfpack59 · November 2004

Which Michelin did you get?

kcwolfpack59 · November 2004

Replaced your X-ones yet? I still love mine, after 4 years they look great and are smooth after 49K and still have 6/32 left. They look better than 70 % of tires I see on other cars. My biggest concern now is that I have gotten to the hard part of the tire now and braking on wet roads is starting to get scary. If it was not for that, I would keep them longer.
I was thinking about Harmony or Hydroedge. I rotate every 5-6k and am concerned the Hydroedge will wear funny because it is a unidirectional tire. I rotated the x-0nes in an x pattern and I know it has contributed to the life of the tires.
The likely biased Michelin website rates the Hydroedge over the Harmony in most categories.
Of course a big concern is quietness of the tire. My x-ones are slightly more noisy than they used to be, Noise was the only let down when I first bought them. They were slightly more noisy when new than the factory Goodyear GAs were when I replaced them at 41K.

imidazol97 · November 2004

Are still going with enough tread I should keep them through the winter. I also am tempted to replace two of them with a Michelin that has a tread that is coarse for snow bite.

The noise from the X-Ones only showed up on concrete interstate that has been roughened for traction. Now it's more noisy since they're worn. Everywhere else they were quieter. The tread is worn shorter now so there's less height of rubber to absorb the vibration from the road texture.

I may put on Harmony or may go down to some other Michelin from Sear's choices for convenience.

imidazol97 · November 2004

not kept up in quality. Once again it's like when the radials came to America the tire manufacturers thought they could market something without really improving the tires -- bias ply radials, I think they were called.

Note tht in the earlier post Lincoln replaced problem tire qualities with Michelins. Cadillac and Buick were doing the same earlier when I bought my 03 LeSabre.

The tire manufacturers are good at explaining away. Not as good as Michelin at putting out quality.

donaldm1 · November 2004

The replacement Michelins are Pilot HX MXM4 Radial XSE 235 X 50R 17.I'm not sure what all the letters mean.

I also have Bridgestones on my Chev 3/4 pickup. They seem to be OK for balance, but at 20,000 miles are beginning to weather check. I suspect that many Bridgestones are simply Firestones with a new name. Bridgestone used to have a pretty good reputation, but when Firestone had to be "saved" they used the Bridgestone name.

lobsenza · November 2004

I have a 2002 Lincoln LS and have just replace the tires with Michlein Pilot Sport A/S. While they are expensive, they are FABULOUS tires.

ronaries10 · November 2004

As suggested, I had a roadforce test & re-balance done at Discount Tires in Columbus...the tires checked out within specs ... at 2 oz, 2 lb, 9 lb, and 15 lb. I was told this was within specs by the staff. the heavier pound tires (9/15) were placed on the rear.
They also told me that 2 of the tires were out of balance (its beenabout 10 days since the last balance). The car is running nicely ... but it always does when rebalanced.
So, perhaps flatspotting has been the trouble/???

imidazol97 · November 2004

I hope this settles your troubles down. I would like to have had the 15 pound tire rotated on the rim to try to match it to a lower force total.

I hope your tires aren't doing what the Generals did on my 93 LeSabre. At about 20K they kept acting out of balance. I assumed they were out of balance but it never seemed to last. I finally found that they had some runout problems and I felt that came from the wear patterns leaving them on the rear too long between rotations. The rear has camber changes with height and weight more than the front. That car had several trips in the early life that might have worn the tires unevenly.

Later my Buick service manager told me that those tires had problems from the factory. As they aged, the belts just wouldn't act right. It probably wasn't the wear on the car.

ronaries10 · November 2004

Thanks for your assistance, Imidazol97. After months of taking the car here/there/etc., I admit to being tired of trying to improve the balance configuration! I was concerned, however, that the tires may be out of round and that I'd best check that immediately in order to deal with Firestone dealer with some leverage on replacement tires. Since the tires appear within specs, I am thinking to set the car up for winter storage now.

Also, things arent' so bad that I can't run some miles on the car ... I just may have to rebalance more than I'd like! (Hopefully the situation won't worsen!). I expect that some new Michelins might solve the problem, but the "bang for the buck" on new tires is pretty small since this is my "Sunday touring" and "nice weather" car with only 3500 miles on the Potenza 950s.
We perfectionists have a hard time accepting the need for moderation!

In the Spring, after taking the car out of its storage barn, I'll probably have to rebalance again. Should I keep the car beyond the next season, I may have to revisit all my options again (revert to factory rotors, replace "good tread" tires w/ Michelins, etc)... once again, I fear I've learned more than I wanted to know!

hansa · November 2004

Hi,

I will have to part with my beloved '95 Toyota Previa bean, because we ran into a deer the other night and insurance won't pay to get it fixed. Being currently unemployed, I plan to look for a winter beater (I'm in NH) until I can afford to get what I want. It occurred to me that since I have last year's snows still in my garage, maybe I should look for a car that fits them. Is there a way to look up what cars fit a given tire size, rather than the other way around?

Thanks loads,
Hansa

capriracer · November 2004

Yes, there is! It's called the OEM Tire Size Guide, and it is published by the folks that make Tire Guides.

www.tireguides.com

It's $25.00

OR

You could publish the size here and I'll look it up in my copy!

tdi_tan · November 2004

the 95 Previa: 14" or 15" tires?
205/75 r14
215/65 r15

hansa · November 2004

The 15" rims, 215/65R15, thanks so much!

capriracer · November 2004

P215/65R15?

01 - 03 Ford Windstar
99 - 01 Honda Odyssey
00 - 02 Nissan Quest
2001 Pontiac Aztec
96 - 98 Suzuki Sidekick
99 - 03 Suzuki Vitara

There may be some 04 and 05 models that take this size, but my book ends at the 03 model year.

Also, some of these vehicles may have other tire sizes as part of the lineup, so checking the actual tire size is important.

This size is very nearly a P225/60R16 and for the purposes of snow tires, this might be an option, and there are a ton of GM, Ford, and Chrysler products that take that size.

Hope this helps.

grantchstr · November 2004

I have new Nokians on my S 60 (non-Turbo) and the tire shop fitted them with 32lbs pressure. The label on the door specifies higher pressures - how does one find out the correct pressure with safety and longevity in mind.

And for highway driving is higher pressure better than lower pressure?

Thanks in advance.

rjbpa · November 2004

I am going to get a Z4 that comes equipped with performance run flat tires. I am not familiar with these and need to know just how bad they are in the snow and ice. I have another vehicle to use when the weather is really bad; the issue is mostly when it is just sloppy, black ice, or the snow is just starting. If I am at work (15 mile commute) and it starts to snow before it was supposed to am I stuck or will I be OK if I get home before it gets really bad?

capriracer · November 2004

To determine the right tire pressure we need to know what the placard said - tire size and inflation pressure - and what tire size was put on. If they are the same then the same inflation pressure as listed on the placard is appropriate.

However, a bit more inflation pressure is probably a good idea for highway driving - with safety and longevity in mind.

capriracer · November 2004

Snow traction is a function of tread design, which is independent of whether it's a runflat or not.

But, IMHO, a Z4 ought to be garaged when it snows. WAY too much risk when you consider other drivers.

ken972 · November 2004

Hello, I have 18k on my oem michelin energy mxv4 s8's. I had the unfortune of getting an unrepairable hole in my left rear tire and am presently driving on the spare tire. Im thinking of replacing it with another s8..but I would like more grip and and maybe a softer ride then I currently enjoy. Long story short..does anyone have any recommendations? Ill either get another michelin s8 or im thinking of the bridgestone turanza ls-v's all around

rjbpa · November 2004

OK, forget the run flat feature. I haven't had performance tires before. Are they impossible in any kind of bad weather, or just when it gets deep.

krzyss · November 2004

There are summer performance tires and winter and all season. There are performance tires that are for dry ony (BF Goodrich g-Force KD).
What tires do you have ?
Nobody but you have this info. Share it with us and somebody will reply, hopefully.

rzys

rjbpa · November 2004

Sorry, I'm new to this board. I thought I could just ask a general question.

Tires are Potenza RE050A 225/40R18 front & 255/3335R-18 rear run-flat tires.

kyfdx · November 2004

Sport package on the Z4 3.0, right?

You will be taking your life in your hands trying to drive home on ice or a dusting of snow..

Not only that, those tires won't even grip well on dry pavement, once the temperature drops below 40F.

If you have to drive this car in the winter, you need winter tires.. preferably on a dedicated set of 17" rims.. Even if there is no precipitation..

regards,
kyfdx

kyfdx · November 2004

Do you have V-rated tires now? If you can get by with H-rated, the Turanza LS-H will likely ride a little better with still very good handling..and also cheaper. Either way, great tires.. I have LS-Hs on an Acura Legend... no complaints.

krzyss · November 2004

is that it seems that Z4 has no spare tire and putting regular tires seems crazy but even run flats would not work if you had a problem with sidewall. www.tirerack.com lists them as "Bridgestone Potenza RE050 (Max Performance Summer) ". It means that kyfdx (what a nice name by the way) is right. These tires get rock hard in low temperature (~45F - 7 Centigrades) and you should not be using them in late autumn,winter and early spring.

You could buy winter or all season run flats or take bigger chances buy winter tires (no run flats) and a can of tire fixing spray.

Krzys

kyfdx · November 2004

Runflats suck (did I say that out loud?).. If I had them, I'd have no trouble taking my chances on non-run flats without a spare.. But, I'd sure want an AAA membership.. Most people with runflats are switching over as soon as their runflats wear out, and taking their chances...

My local BMW dealer sells non-runflat winter tire packages, even for Z4s.

regards,
kyfdx

rjbpa · November 2004

>You will be taking your life in your hands trying to drive home on ice or a dusting of snow..

>Not only that, those tires won't even grip well on dry pavement, once the temperature drops below 40F.

Thank you very much. That is exactly what I needed to know.

hansa · November 2004

Yes, it narrows the field. Thanks very much!

tntitan · November 2004

Since I replaced my 15" stock wheels on my '03 Accord with aftermarket 17" wheels I assume my spare is worthless (I think those temporary tires are pretty worthless anyway but I suppose they could get you to a garage). I decided to just remove the spare and use the space for storage unless I can find a 17" temporary spare tire that will fit in the storage compartment at a reasonable price.

Does anyone have any practical suggestions?

capriracer · November 2004

No, so long as you didn't modify the brakes, the spare will still be the same overall diameter, and so are your aftermarket tires (if you did it correctly.

tntitan · November 2004

So I can still use the same spare tire for emergency purposes? Thank you for that bit of info....I wasn't sure how all of that worked.

driftracer · November 2004

change overall diameter, which I'm sure you didn't, the spare doesn't care what tire and wheel it's replacing.

robby8 · November 2004

I am considering buying either Michelin Harmony or Hydroedge tires for my 2000 Malibu LS. Does it matter if the Speed rating for the Harmonys is S and the original tires were T? Also, someone said that since the Hyrdroedge are "uni-directional", the tire has to be removed from the wheel to rotate. Is this a problem? Thanks in advance for any advice.

pathstar1 · November 2004

means trouble if you get a flat. A partial fix that seems reasonable is a can of "flat fix" or whatever the manfacturer calls the can you buy. It seals small holes and inflates the tire. Mazda puts this stuff in the RX-8, as there is no spare (the spare is an option that takes up a lot of the trunk if ordered).

Upside is it's much safer using this than changing a tire in traffic.

Downside is once you use this stuff on a tire it may render the tire unrepairable, though many causes for flats do that anyway if it goes flat while you are driving. Some cases can be fixed properly later, some can't. The tire shops love this stuff - NOT! It makes fixing/changing the tire lots of fun, cleaning out the mess it creates (been there - done that - ugh).

kyfdx · November 2004

I agree... the fix-a-flat stuff usually ruins a tire... But, most runflats are ruined if they get a flat, anyway.. And, if they aren't, they certainly will be, once you drive 30-40 miles on them with no air..

I'm just a risk-taker, I guess.. ;-)

ruking1 · November 2004

This is not to say that flat tires do not happen, but I have app 66,000 miles on a Corvette Z06, majority of miles touring in 12 western states, some states: multiple times, and BC, CN.

Z06 tires are not run flat. The problem with run flats are 1. faster wear 2 poorer handling (over non run flats) 3. poorer ride. 4.more expensive 5. way less choices of brand that are run flats 6 less choice of tire sizes that come with a run flat. Besides even with run flats, (most have a MAX of 50 mile "run flat" range anyway) the ultimate thing you should do is the same: flat bed the vehicle to the tire shop!

The car came oem with a air pressure inflator and so called "fix it" in a can, but I have never had to use it. Nor have I had to "flat bed it".

sav · November 2004

Need some opinions about upgrading tires/wheels on an '00 accord LX.

Initial thoughts were to go from the stock 195/65-15s to something like 225/60-15s (keep OEM wheels).

Can anyone attest to why one should spend $400-600 extra to go to 17 instead of sticking to 15

My driving habits are moderate to slightly aggressive in socal (no snow, light rain).

Also, which brand tires/wheels would you recommend on a reasonable budget?

Tires, tires, tires

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