Tires, tires, tires

timadams · January 2005

Thanks, 63corvette. I am considering the Goodyear Assurance TripleTreds as well as the ComforTreds. Not sure which would be better for my wife's Avalon.

ruking1 · January 2005

On your Avalon, some considerations: what is the OEM's recommendation for rotation, and what has been your history of wear. Triple treads are ("V") directional and need to stay on one side, i.e., front to rear, rear to front .

Comfort treads can easily do a 4/5 tire cross rotation also.

milt · January 2005

Just purchased with 28,000 km (17,000 mi) and want to put winter tires with steel rims. Any suggestions as to brand. Leaning towards Blizzack or X-Ice. Tires are 205/50-16" but would appreciate thoughts on going smaller for smoother ride (also cheaper)and have read that narrower can be benefit so as to not be pushing as much snow, although main concern is ice, not deep snow, and I would think wider would provide more tread contact with the ice and improve traction?? Your experiences would be appreciated

andys120 · January 2005

The conventional wisdom via Tire Rack and others is that it's better to have smaller (move heavily loaded PSI) contact patches. I believe this applies to ice as well as snow.

I suspect TR would suggest 195/55-15" for your car. I've had good results from Blizzaks that are narrower/taller than regular tires on skinnier steel rims (205/65-15 vs 225/55-16)

mikenmar · January 2005

I'm looking for new tires on a 97 Maxima. Still have original tires (low mileage car: 45,100), but believe (correctly?) it is time for new ones. Live in northeast, so would like something good in snow/all weather,etc. Any suggestions? Thanks

tdi_tan · January 2005

195/60 r15 for the Focus since those are the factory size 15" tires.

195/55 r15 are too small and leaves you with little choices in winter tires

marsha7 · January 2005

and maybe you can help my dilemma...on my Crown Vic LX Sport, Goodyear tires, Ford calls for 35psi for both front and rear...no problem, I always add one pound to allow for leakage (36psi cold) and the tires state the max pressure is 44 psi so, no problem...the problem is with my Dodge Ram 1500 with Michelin tires...Dodge also calls for 35 psi in front and rear, but the Michelins state on the tire, max pressure is 35 psi...this is not a misprint...Dodge's normal tire reco happens to be the max pressure in the Michelin tire...am I unsafe by keeping the Ram at 35 psi cold, since we are running at the max inflation pressure that the tire can tolerate???...do we have a tire problem on this truck, keeping it near the max allowable pressure that Michelin says the tire can handle???...what do I do?

capriracer · January 2005

There is a tire standardizing body called the Tire and Rim Association (TRA). They are a US based organization. Part of what they do is to standardize the load vs inflation table for all manufacturers. In Europe, it's the ETRTO (European Tire and Rim Technical Organization). There are others.

Typical passenger car tires have a maximum load at 35 psi. Past interpretations of US regulations meant that 35 psi was what was supposed to be stamped on the sidewall. In the past few years there has been some re-evaluation of this, as well as some standardiztion between TRA and ETRTO.

What has come out is that tires that used to be stamped 35 psi max can now be stamped 44 psi. This really isn't a technical change (this has always been an acceptable practice from a technical point of view), it's just a different way of reading the regulation.

Most of the tire manufacturers decided to change the stamping as they changed molds. Michelin, however, either didn't react very quickly, or has chosen not to adopt this standard. This doesn't mean you can't inflate your Michelins to 44 psi - it means they are probably viewing the regulation a bit differently than everyone else. (Sounds like the French, doesn't it?)

Hope this helps.

edh · January 2005

whats missing in all the tire data (some companys give it, many like Michelin will not give it) is the tire tread WIDTH where it meets the ground-

it varies by like 3/4 inch out of 8 inchs in the standard camry size based on my parking lot measurenments.

More smoke and mirrors by the tire people.

Michelin told me tire width on the ground was not required by the government therefore they would not release it. go figure.

z71bill · January 2005

My Mazda3 is at 10,000 miles - when I rotated the tires at 5K - I followed the owners manual and did a front to back (back to front) leaving the tires same side of the car. With all my other vehicles (rear wheel drive) I always moved the back tires to the front - same side, but crossed the front tires to the rear of the other side of the vehicle.

I checked on the Goodyear web site and - for my tires (Goodyear Eagle RS-A 205 50 17) they say I should cross the tires on the drive wheels. Which would mean I move the front tires to the back on the same side, and cross the rear tires to the other side of the car.

Anyone have any input -

Follow owners manual or tire manufacture advise?

ruking1 · January 2005

The Honda Civic OEM recommended rotation is front to the rear- same side. The REARS are CROSSED. (LR to RF and RR to LF)

I am assuming the Mazda III is a front engine/wheel drive?! If so it might be VERY similar to the OEM recommended rotation for VW Jetta (TDI) in my case. In the case of the Jetta (TDI) and Honda Civic, the static weight distribution is 60/40. So all things being equal which would tend to wear more? Front or rear?

Also the VW technical data hints at more wear on one side that the other. Again on the Jetta it is the right side. Procedurally Honda (since it recommends a rear cross rotation) hints at this same phenomenon, but there does not seem to be any hints in a 3.5 in 10# shop manual!

I took exception to the VW OEM recommendations and do a five tire cross rotation.

I did this due to a number of factors:

1. 5 full sized tires/wheels

2. technical data that hints at different wear rates

3 longitudinal data that confirms it

4. more even and hopefully longer wear from tires. 125,333 miles projected, but extreme happiness with 85-95k.

On the VW Jetta in order of most to least wear : 1. RF 2. LF 3. RR 4. LF 5. spare (actually no wear but you get the picture) I keep records to serve as another data point for those folks (and others who are interested) who have posted their results (on another web site) whose write ups were helpful to me in my decision making.

The technical side is:

1. 5 tires each (at 10k rotation intervals) serve at the RF (and all positions also) as opposed to the oem recommendation of MAX of 2 (front to rear rear to front same side will = 2 tires) . So while the wear characteristic is the same it is spread over 5 tires vs 2

2 Cross rotation tends to more evenly wear the side to side "set" that a tire can take

3. Since we already understand the front to rear and vice versa condition, I skipped over this.

So in your Mazda III, if you decide to go with a cross rotation with 4 tires, cross the REARS because the rears wear least and you want to put the least worn tires in the position of most wear, i.e. RF. So on YOUR front engine rear wheel drive the dynamics are (different)and opposite of the front engine front wheel drive.

So at 47,000 miles on OEM GY LS-H tires, the measured remaining tread is 7/32 in for discussion sake.a tad more than 6.5 to 7.5/32's is the range) Since the tires started with 10/32- 7/32= 3/32 wear or consumed/47,000= 15,667 miles per 1/32. So projected consumption if I take it to 2/32 in = 8/32 x 15,667= 125,333 miles. The truth be told I'd be thrilled to get 85-95k!

z71bill · January 2005

I think I will use Goodyears rotation method - my fronts will go straight back to the rear (same side) and I will move the rears up to the front - but switch sides. Since I did one same side rotation I considered doing a double cross.

The only problem - it is a lot more of a pain to cross rotate - I can Jack up one side of the car and lift both front and rear off the ground at the same time. If I cross I need to figure out how to put jack stands under a Mazda3.

The number of miles you are getting from a set of tires is fantastic - My Goodyears started out at 11/32 - after 10K they are down to between 6 and 7 (32nds) at this rate I will be lucky to see much over 20K. I normally replace at around 3/32 -

ruking1 · January 2005

Short answers are YES and YES. If you use the Goodyear rotations, I take it that you do not have a full sized spare. What you intend to do will make sure all four tires occupy each of the four positions, as opposed to just two.

dorothyk · January 2005

I would like to get the opinion of this forum on tire size for the 2005 Lexus LS430. Lexus insist on shipping most of the LS430 with 18 tires (P245/45WR18) instead of the standard 17 (P225/55HR17). I do not see the advantage of the larger tire size (except cosmetic) for this car.

In fact, the shorter sidewalls and wider tread on the larger 18 wheels will probably significantly reduce ride quality and increase noise. Should I demand the smaller size wheel or is the difference not that noticeable? Surely, this car does not need a W speed rated tire.

My impression is the trend towards bigger wheels is driven mostly by looks not performance.

ruking1 · January 2005

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I am also sure that if you price the SIZES of tires side by side, in the tire brands and models, you will probably find the 18 in significantly more expensive.

The H rated tires are at 130 mph. The problem will be you will not have to go too long or to far at 130 mph to get BUSTED!! So unless you routinely take it to the track, or God forbid street race, W rated tires (168 mph) might be almost total overkill.

capriracer · January 2005

IMHO, the aspect ratios have been dropping too fast - faster than shocks can be improved to get the same ride harshness. This seems to be a race driven for handling supremacy.

I'll bet the 17" wheels won't fit, as brakes are usually enlarged at the same time.

And the speed rating? These vehicles are sold worldwide, so while the US can't go that fast, there are parts of the world that can! And more capability always equals more safety.

ruking1 · January 2005

Just about anything over 17 in wheels are really for "bling". As Capriracer has indicated, the shocks (actually the whole shooting match) really have not kept up for the aftermarket plethora of choices of wheels, tires, brake rotors, brake pads, springs, shocks, struts, etc. etc. From your postings I do not get the feeling that you will test the aftermarket wheel market!? But really to be an informed consumer of aftermarket stuff requires a whole different interelated field of knowledge, normally this can be lost on the non enthusiast!

Since on the Lexus, one or the other is/will come standard, you can almost rest assured that either combo has been engineered for the parameters of the car. So if you indeed do have a choice (all things being equal) the smaller wheel/tire will probably offer better ride comfort. I have already mentioned that the larger tire will most likely cost MORE.

Of course, heaven help you if you do any damage to your wheels! Oem Lexus wheels are BIG bucks! Also since there is SO much aftermarket choice in wheels, you might want to make sure if you select aftermarket stuff, know the logistics behind repair and replacement.

herbeapuce · January 2005

Hi

here my driver profile:

I'm in Canada, province of Quebec where the roads are bad...

I am not an agressive drive

typically on highway I do 120 Km

20 miles a day max

I expect my tires to last 60,000KM or less, I don't mind.

BETTER RIDE COMFORT , actually LOWER NOISE COMFORT is more like it...

I don't know what my tires are and I HATE the noise they make.

the tread noise is very important for me. a little tread noise will drive me crazy

My car is not modified.

So what do you think I should buy for summer and winter tires?

anybody has some good internet links to views objective reviews about tire noise...?

TIA

stef, montreal.

lobsenza · February 2005

There may be a difference in both ride comfort and handling between the 2 tires. One may be more of a handling tire, the other may be more of a ride tire. There also may be some other changes with the tire differences. I suggest taking a test drive (of both, if possible) to see which one you like better. Make sure the tire pressure is correct before the test drive, since that will influence the results. I just special ordered 2 Toyota Siennas for customers to get them equipped the way I wanted them equipped and a better price. I am sure the same can be done for Lexus.

stever · February 2005

"The wheels that come on a new car or truck are specifically developed to work on that particular vehicle," Traverna says. "It's a full system approach. Balancing ride and handling is a trade-off, and you can't get a free lunch."

The Danger of Dubs (Inside Line)

Steve, Host

wulf007 · February 2005

I recently purchased a 2002 MBZ C320 with AMG package. Previous owner kept his $7000 rims and tires when he got a new C55 and replaced them with stock 205/55/16 tires and rims. I want to upgrade to MBZ AMG package, 225/45/17 fronts and 245/40/17 rears, but that ride seems awfully harsh and noisy with low profile high performance tires. It was suggested that I try 235/45/17 in front (taller tire gives more sidewall and thus softer ride) and 245/45/17 in the rear. Would this work or would it be better to address the ride and noise problem through choice of tire?

Next question. I was going to try the Bridgestone Turanza LH V rated tire as a good compromise between high performance and grand touring tire but apparently they don't offer a 245/40/17 or 245/45/17. Both MBZ rep and my independent mechanic recommend Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires. They got good reviews on Tirerack but I would hate to shell out that much money and feel like I am riding on rocks.

Any advice would be appreciated.

kyfdx · February 2005

The 225/45-17 and 245/40-17 combo is the same as the BMW 330i sport package... It is a pretty firm ride, but if you get an all-season tire, it will help a lot.. the Michelin or the Turanza LS-V should both ride pretty well for that size..

If you can go 225/45-17 all the way around (should be okay, if you get all the same size wheels), there are a lot more choices... I don't even think you can get the Turanzas in both of those sizes...

I don't think you can go taller..

ruking1 · February 2005

I have tried the Michelin Pilot Sports A/S on my brother in laws BMW 330i. They are truly a great tire! But as you and he has said: pricey. The car first came with Bridgeston Turanza's and they also felt pretty smooth.

I have also put 56,000 miles on the GY Eagle F1 Supercars and 12,000 miles on Toyo Proxes T1's.(265-40-17, 295-35-18) So in your sizes I would say also the GY Eagle F1 D-3's are another great tire.

I really like the Toyo's for the balance between dry and wet handling. The Toyo's are much smoother than the Supercars but give up a little in dry traction. I would say the Supercars have absolutely fantastic dry grip, but will probably feel like riding on rocks to you.

lobsenza · February 2005

I bought them for my 2002 Lincoln LS at the recommendation of Tire Rack and many members of the owners club. They are fabulous tires and worth the extra money. The difference is most noticable in the rain, they never slide (I can't comment about snow and ice since we haven't had any in TX).

mz6greyghost · February 2005

I'm looking to replace my wife's awful Goodyear Eagle LS tires (185/60-15) with something that will last longer than just 15k miles. Due to the limited tires in that size, I'm looking to upgrade to 195/60-15. We live in upstate NY, with a lot of snowy and rainy days, and she drives aggressively.

1. Tirerack recommends Bridgestone Potenza G009. Are they great tires for these conditions? I can't go wrong with the price, and I'm leaning toward them at this point...

2. Does anyone (besides Goodyear) carry 185/60-15s? I'm looking toward name brands, and NOT Futura or Republic etc.

3. Any other Neon drivers out there with this predicament? What did you do?

ruking1 · February 2005

Obviously you need to verify the sizes, but the G009 is good. Bridgestone Turanza LS-T, Goodyear Comfort Tread, BFG Traction T/A-T & H rated are also on my list of top replacement tires, for another size 185/70/14.

imidazol97 · February 2005

Michelin Harmony is ranked well for snow on their site (9) and is available in both sizes you mentioned.

http://www.michelinman.com/assets/pdfs/doc_harmony.pdf

I put those on my car and they are great in water and in snow (Ohio).

The price was good. There's a comparable tire Destiny at Tire Discounters and similar tire Agility at Sears. The Harmony had one step higher snow rating on Michelin's site.

yurakm · February 2005

Bridgestone Potenza G009 is a new type of tires, less than 1 year on market. It replaces Firestone Firehawk SH-30. Practically the same tread pattern on sides, but substantially different one in center: G009 is directional.

I had SH-30 with my 98 Malibu, for about 33k miles. Great tires for dry pavement and outstanding for wet. Sporty. Do not hydroplane.

However, the tires were so-so in snow. Especially after 20k or 25k miles, with 6/32" of tread left.

I live and work in Connecticut, 2-6 miles from the Long Island Sound. Hilly terrains, winding roads, but not cold. Few snow on roads, but when it snows, the snow is very wet, heavy, and sticky. In addition, it melts and slips on warmer pavements. Very different from upper NY.

There is no sense to buy winter tires in our places. However, a lot of people who lives 50 miles farther from the ocean, in Northern CT, buys winter tires. Probably, even more sense to do it in the upper NY.

Nokian all-season tires from Finland are very popular in Scandinavia and Russia. Have a reputation to be as good in snow as winter tires. Personally, I have no experience with them.

http://www.nokiantires.com/newsite/tires_popup.cfm?id=6

andys120 · February 2005

Nokian WRs are probably the best all season tires out there, they come highly recommended but expensively priced.

pathstar1 · February 2005

For a long time I was determined to wear out my older tires before buying new ones. Then I came to my senses - if you slide into another car or fixed object it will cost you more than $500, perhaps a lot more. Much more than getting proper all season tires early. I got the Nokian WRs and they work very well, both on a Mazda RX-8 and a Nissan Pathfinder.

imidazol97 · February 2005

I agree. GEtting that last 25% of tread wear on a highway tire isn't worth the lowered traction in an emergency or rain situation.

I ditched two tires last month and got two with great tread for snow; that backs are 30%. I should have changed all 4 tires.

yurakm · February 2005

If you are planning to replace tires before they are turning bald, it is usually possible to wait for a big sale and to buy a new set of tires at great discount, up to 25% ("one tire is free when you are buying 4"). On the other hand, if you are trying to milk the last 25% of tread, you finish up paying full price, or got smaller discount, if you are lucky. In result tires cost you the same, per mile, but during the last 25% of time are much worse.

ruking1 · February 2005

While this can vary a bit, 2/32in ( 20% tread) left is the definition of legally bald. So if one starts with 10/32 in. on a tire new, then by definition 8/32 in is "useable."

"If you are planning to replace tires before they are turning bald, it is usually possible to wait for a big sale and to buy a new set of tires at great discount, up to 25% ("one tire is free when you are buying 4"). On the other hand, if you are trying to milk the last 25% of tread, you finish up paying full price, or got smaller discount, if you are lucky. In result tires cost you the same, per mile, but during the last 25% of time are much worse."

Yeah, I did exactly that! I had 3/32 left on an SUV that I had just gone up to and came back from a record snowstorm and snow accumulations in the mountains. (Reno, NV) Absolutely positively no loss of traction!! I probably could have easily gone another half year, but they had a 60-70 dollar rebate off normally low prices, so I took the plunge!!

kankokuonly · February 2005

I'd go with Kumho ECSTA Supra 712 or BFGoodrich g-Force Sport.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/bfg_gforce_sport.jsp

mz6greyghost · February 2005

Thank you guys for all your suggestions.

My wife and I decided to go with all-seasons, instead of high-performance tires, due to the fact that she'll only have that car for another 3 years (about 40-42k miles), and we DON'T want to buy another set. I checked into the Nokians at a couple of local dealers, and was blown away at the price! I'm sure they are great all-seasons, but they were a little too pricey for my wife's taste, and I couldn't talk her into them.

I then found the Michelin Harmonys at tirerack.com, and was impressed with the ratings and comments by others on their site. Both our previous cars had Michelins, and my current snow tires are Pilot Alpin PA2s (GREAT snow tire for my Mazda 6S, BTW) so I went with them, and saved a few bucks at tirerack compared to the local shops.

I'll let you know how they are when she gets them mounted and I get to drive it. Anything has got to be better than the Goodyear Eagle LS. They barely lasted 15K miles, and they are terrible in the rain and snow, no traction AT ALL!

andys120 · February 2005

about Michelin's non-pneumatic tire development...

http://autoshow.msn.com/as/article.aspx?xml=Michelin&shw=auto- show2005&src=autoshow2005Coverage

Pretty cool, huh?

63corvette · February 2005

I'd like to interrupt for a minute to discuss tires again. I mentioned that when I got my Goodyear TripleTred tires, there was a rebate on them. Well it took me more than 2 months, but I finally got my check for $50.00 last night. That brings my total cost to $105X4=$420-50=$370 delivered to my door, or $92.50/tire. I like the tires, but if they last 80,000 miles like they are supposed to it will be one helluva deal:-)

krzyss · February 2005

cross poster !

;-)

Krzys

stever · February 2005

And we were on topic, so there was nothing to interrupt. I think 63 mostly wanted to brag on his great deal. :-)

Steve, Host

rjbpa · February 2005

I am getting a Z4 with Potenza RE050A 225/40R18 front & 255/3335R-18 rear run-flat tires. I had asked a question about winter driving on performance tires back in November. I held off purchasing the car until now primarily so I didn't need to worry about driving in bad weather. Back in November, kyfdx had indicated there is a problem when the temperature drops below 40F. I am picking up the car tomorrow and will be driving it 150 miles to get it home. The weather forecast is for temps in the mid 30's. How dangerous is this? Should I put off delivery until it is warmer?

kyfdx · February 2005

A highway trip home.. without inclement weather, should be no problem.. Just take your time... The tires won't turn into solid rocks as soon as you get below 40F.. they just get worse, the colder it is..

Just be extra careful, until the tires get warmed up (5-10 miles)..Once they warm up, you should be fine.. You'll still be safer than the other 80% of the public that are driving on worn and under-inflated tires...

Congratulations on the car.. I'm guessing that is the 3.0 with the sport package?

regards,
kyfdx

rjbpa · February 2005

>I'm guessing that is the 3.0 with the sport package?

Yes. I probably only have 3 weeks or so where I will need to dodge the weather. Next year my son is off to college and I will have Grand Prix to drive in the winter while the Z4 sits in the garage. Thank you for all of your help in the various threads where you post.

pathstar1 · February 2005

Exactly as kyfdx stated. Be careful when you first start out, especially when turning. No full throttle until you've gone a mile or two. The tires are hard and "slippery" when -they- are cold. You also loose a little traction when the tires are warm but the road is still cold, though most wouldn't notice that difference. If it snows, park it until the snow melts. I can't even get my RX-7 down the snow packed back alley, the tires are so slippery. Mine are Mich. Pilots, but most "performance tires" are the same when cold.

kankokuonly · February 2005

KUMHO's ECSTA V70A has been voted best tyre in a test of road-legal track day tyres by German motoring magazine AUTO BILD.

Beating off the challenge from similar products from Michelin, Toyo, Yokohama and Pirelli, the V70A was given top marks for its uncompromising sports-orientated performance. The AUTO BILD testers praised the tyre for its excellent lateral and directional stability as well as its dry braking ability.

AUTO BILD is one of Germany's leading motoring magazines with a readership in excess of three million.

Nominated as the control tyre for several production car race series, the KUMHO V70A is available in some 27 sizes from 13" to 18" and in a choice of compounds.

Commenting on KUMHO's success, European motorsport manager Steve Thompson said: "The V70A is one of the most versatile tyres in our range and can be used for anything from tarmac rallying to hill climbing. This win proves what we have been saying for some time: the V70A is the ideal tyre for the serious track day enthusiast."

Click on the magazine image to download a pdf of the article (5.2MB)

edh · February 2005

michelin needs some competition to dop their prices a little.

imidazol97 · February 2005

Realizing that tires are like politics:
Myself I'll stick with quality in the tires over advertising and car mags recommendations. You don't know how many percs are given at trade shows to gain those recommendations.

I don't drive my Buicks in competition much anymore so I really don't know how the quality compares, but I do know Michelin has given me round tires that stay round after 20K miles and don't need rebalancing often. Michelin has given me long life 100K on 80K tires (XH4s, XOnes). I stick with what works.

If I did drive much more aggressively in a sporty car, perhaps the grip factor in extreme driving would make a difference. But I couldn't get my new Harmonys to break loose on a typical dry snow in quick movements. Another good choice--for me and mine, IMHO.

dialm4speed · March 2005

I used to work for a tire distributor and I used to have to deal with Kumho trailer tires. I fell out laughing when I found out they were making car tires. I laughed even harder when I found out people were actually buying them.

dialm4speed · March 2005

I've got a question. You say your wife drives aggressively, so I'll assume you mean she likes to put her foot in it. Since this is the case, why wouldn't you want to get a performance type tire that fits her driving style?

Your free to get what you like of course but I'm just curious.

driftracer · March 2005

Hey, everyone has an opinion - I was a regional manager for Super Shops and our primary sales motivation was tires and wheels - I've been to over a hundred tire classes and equipment seminars.

I've used 4 sets of Kuhmos on my cars and my son's cars, with the only negative being a little tire noise that developed after 20k miles on a set of 712s.

I have a brand new set of 285/60-18 Kuhmo STX truck tires in my garage to go with the OZ Nova ST wheels I just bought - they'll me mounted on my Dakota Quad Cab 4x4 tomorrow.

Michelins, I suppose, are the hallmark of tires, but 2 reasons keep me from buying them - Kuhmos and Dunlops are usually half the price, and I'll never buy anything made by a French company again as long as I live.

imidazol97 · March 2005

> I'll never buy anything made by a French company

They have plants in the US building tires.

That's the same response I got about buying foreign brand cars from the foreign brand car group. When I commented that the profits (after all offshore billing and no tax states games) go to a foreign country, I was told they have salesmen, suppliers, haulers, dealerships with workers here, all making the money from selling them. I guess the same would go for Michelin.

Actually, I feel uncomfortable about French and Germans (and Russians). But Michelin tires are so long-lasting and true that I have to overlook that part. (I'm going to check the sidewall of my Harmonys for the plant code to see where they're built.)

I respect that other people have other tires that have served them well. I've found the Symmetry Michelins on the new LeSabre aren't lasting nearly as well as I'd expect (80000 mi.); otherwiese I've had good service from perhaps 44-52 Michelins I've bought since they had tubes in them in 1967.

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