It could be a bad batch that particular store got or it could be a bad run of tires that several/all stores have. Impossible to know for sure.
Have you discussed this with the manager/team leader? Exchanging a couple of defective tires for new ones is reasonable. Exchanging tires, defect after defect after defect, is not. They need to start giving you some real options beyond "lets try another pair".
Interesting side note: I was talking to a manager of a local tire & alignment shop and he said some tire models are always out of round, regardless of who sells them. For example, he told me he has never seen a good Dunlop GT Qualifier tire in the past 10 years. All of them he has sold and installed have been out of round to some extent and he's exchanged dozens of defective tires. So this is a problem with plenty of tire models. Some are just better made than others.
When my Buick dealer was force-balancing my Michelins as we were trouble-shooting the slight vibration on my LeSabre..., he was putting a new set of Goodyears on a TransAm with balance problems. The new ones were way above the allowed force measure for my LeSabre. He commented that some tires are not good even when new. That's why Buick (and Cadillac) had gone only to Michelins for the replacements when trouble-shooting Park AVenues and Cadillacs if they didn't already have Michelins.
Tire manufacture hasn't kept up with the improved unsprung mass amounts and stiffness in newer cars and it's showing up at imbalance in tires and vibration sent through the stiffer chasses.
WalMart sells Symmetry tires by Michelin and some lesser models. I'd ask them to substitute Symmetry tires for you and force balance them. Unless your rims are out of round (they can check that) your problem should be fixed.
The Buick Park Avenue, the Buick LeSabre, and some Cadillacs (I forget which ones) are all G platform vehicles. These are particularly sensitive to wheel end rotation frequencies and interestingly enough to a uniformity parameter called Tangential - sometimes known as Fore/aft. Most vehicles are not sensitive to these frequencies and tangential uniformity. GM is aware of the problem and can't seem to get rid of it. This is why, out of desperation, some dealers have chosen to use Michelins, but even then there are some individual vehicles that can't seemed to be fixed.
GM has some vehicles that don't have this characteristic, like the Lumina and the Buick Century, and these vehicle don't require anything special for tires.
So I don't think the problem is tire manufacturers not keeping pace.
Uniformity is a tire property that deals with slight variations in the deflection of a tire. One way to look at this is "roundness", but this isn't quite accurate, as it's not a dimensional property. Another term that is used to describe this property is force variation.
When folks talk about direction relative to the tire, they use these terms:
Radial - this would be in the direction along the radius (diameter) from the center outward. In terms of the vehicle, this would be up and down.
Lateral - this would be in the direction along the axis (axle). In terms of the vehicle, this would be side to side.
Circumferential - this would be in the direction perpendicular to the radial direction, but along the circumference, not lateral.. For the purposes of unformity, we use the term Tangential or Fore/aft, to prevent confusion when we abbreviate.
As a tire rolls, it is deflected and there are some variations in the way it rolls. Generally vehicles are sensitive to Radial forces, and most sensitive to the 1st harmonic - once per revolution.
Vehicles are relatively insensitive to lateral forces, but lateral forces generally are generated by belt placement variation, and this is something that tire manufacturers have spent quite a bit of time working on.
The above uniformity parameters have been well known for over 30 years and tire manufacturers measure these in production, and those with high values are kicked out.
In recent years, in the process of discovering why certain vibrating vehicles don't seem to get fixed by to reducing radial forces, Tangential force variation has been identified as the source of the vibration. This also seems to be more of a problem at higher speeds. Since the machines that measure production tires are low speed machines, you can't use them as a screening tool. Plus, the production source of tangential variation is a bit elusive. However, it has been found that making the sidewall stiffer helps, but this is exactly the thing that hurts ride harshness - and since the vehicles where this is important are mostly luxory sedans, this is not an appropriate direction to pursue.
I hope this wasn't too technical and that I explained what is going on.
Thanks again for the help...I'm going with the bad batch theory...I think at this point I'm just going to go to another WalMart and hopefully someone there can help me because the "team" at the one I've been going to is useless. In fact, the "team leader" is the most difficult one of all to deal with. Besides, like they told me, the only tires that they have that fit my car are the American Eagles (whatever). I have no problem paying for a more expensive tire if it means my car will ride smoothly. The tech at Honda feels that the American Eagle is just a bad tire all together...which is another reason I would like an entirely different tire. We'll see, thanks to Hurricane Dennis it should be raining all weekend here, plenty of time to spend wandering around Super Walmart for 4 hours while they replace my tires AGAIN.
I believe I follow the point. Tangential as a name is a misnomer; it really is better described as force variation, i.e., the amount of crush varies under load as the tire rolls so the wheel is moved up and down due to the tire's different amounts of crush. The up-and-down movement acts just like radial runout, which is limited to .015 inches usually. However because the force variation isn't visible when spinning the tire/wheel, people believe they have a good tire when really they don't.
Force variation has been around a long time. I believe I still have an Oldsmobile Service Manual for 1977 showing a device to attach to the hub on the front wheel and rotate the wheel under the weight of the car to measure force variation in the tire.
The explanation for force variation having more of an effect on the wheel/tire/suspension parts is that they have all gotten lighter along with the tire sidewalls getting stiffer. (The tires that have trouble seem to be 60 series and shorter, just as Capriceracer said.) Add the stiffer body and you have something you can feel at least part of the time.
My LeSabre had it slightly, balanced, rebalanced later again. Then I mentioned it seemed to show up on a smooth interstate uphill under light acceleration and didn't on deceleration. Service manager realigned, toe front not at optimum, rear toed in slightly-not at optimum. Sensation gone.
I am sensitive to out-of-balance and out-of-round more than most, according to my service manager. But it's not come back. So if it were something related to the car design, as the tires wore it would have returned.
OK, I think you've got a couple of points incorrect.
When it comes to force variation (as well as tires), there are 3 directions - Radial, Lateral, and Tangential. If you look at the side of a car (so the tire is a circle) the radial direction is up and down - the lateral direction is towards you and away from you, - and the tangential direction is left and right.
What the vehicle experiences is a little different. Tangential forces act like driveline torsional vibration. You mentioned your LeSabre had a vibration on acceleration, but not on braking. This was caused by the engine pulses transmitted through the drivetrain. This is the effect you get with tangential forces. - and it kind of points out the sensitivity of the LeSabre to this kind of force. Most vehicles don't have this kind of sensitivity. The lighter weight suspension components and the stiffer chassis don't help the situation, but the increased stiffness of the sidewall only affects the ride quality (harshness) and not the vibrations. The real solution to the vibration problem for these vehicles seems to be elusive.
Radial force variation and radial run out are loosely related. It wasn't until recently that an effective and reasonably inexpensive machine was available to measure force variation - the Hunter GSP9700. It has its limitations, but it is a better tool to solve these problems than was available before.
I agree, force variation HAS been around a long time, but check your 1977 Olds Service manual and I think you'll find the machine you describe was for "on the car" balancing.
Quote " But it's not come back. So if it were something related to the car design, as the tires wore it would have returned. " End of Quote
Here I respectfully disagree. We've measured tangential forces as the tire wears, and they don't seem to change much, and, if anything, they improve. So I still think this is a vehicle sensitivity issue. But I will also say that we haven't measured the vehicle sensitivity as the vehicle accumulates mileage (I suspect GM has), but I would think that the vehicle sensitivity to tangential forces (as well as all other force variation) decreases with mileage.
OK, if you don't mind - please explain your pseudonym It reminds me of "Imzadi"
when I first left NY to move to GA, I was surprised to see that EVERY tire shop had a machine called a "tire truing machine", a movable blade that was slowly advanced into a rotating tire until it was perfectly round...almost every tire was imperfect to some degree, and this procedure made them virtually perfectly round.
They don't do this anymore, and no one has the machines...with all of this talk about out-of-round tires, why isn't this a standard procedure when selling and mounting all new tires???...it just seems to make sense...no one would ever put on a tire without balancing, as it is assumed that every mounted tire is out of balance...why not true the tires and take away the other variable, roundness???
Tire truing machines disappeared when bias ply tires did.
Bias tires responded well to truing, but radials don't. That's because in a bias ply tire, zero load run out correlates well to loaded force variation. In a radial tire, the correlation is much poorer - to the point where you have only a 60% chance of fixing a tire related vibration.
And I think what you are missing is that force variation is what the vehicle experiences, not "out-of-roundness". Everyone talks about "out-of-round" simply because it's an easy concept to visualize. But we are dealing with something flexible and the vehicle always experiences the tire in a deflected state.
>LeSabre had a vibration on acceleration, but not on braking.
I did not say that motor vibrations occurred. I said that after the first run at improving the tire balancing (Hunter 9700) when I drove on smoothly repaved interstate 65 to Nashville, I noted that the occasional, slight imbalance showed up on upgrades where the motor had to pull to hold the cruise control speed; on downgrades I never noticed it. This was a fade in, fade out kind of slight imbalance--my wife didn't notice it when she drove and didn't notice it just riding. I indicated I'm anal about how the car feels.
It was not motor vibration; it was the slight change in suspension positioning due to forward pull on the wheels. Hence slight, normal alignment change--so we checked and improved the alignment and it was gone.
>increased stiffness of the sidewall only affects the ride quality (harshness) and not the vibrations.
The stiffness of the sidewalls affects how the suspension reacts to the variations in the crush of the sidewalls which causes radial runout type forces. The softer General Ameritech tires on 15 inch rims on LeSabres don't seem to have the problems.
>1977 Olds Service manual and I think you'll find the machine you describe was for "on the car" balancing.
The sketch was of a car resting on rollers under the wheel and the device attached to the bolt that held the wheel bearings on to measure the wheel's up and down movement as the tire and rim unit rotated slowly. A dial gauge measured the radial runout.
The service manager drove the car a couple of times with a vibration sensor attached to different parts, seat track, steering column, dash board. He found the vibration was low after the first 9700 balancing and checked the harmonics. All told him what I was feeling was wheels. He went from there and it's gone. I have several opinions as to where it came from. But it's gone and the car is great. When I replace the tires, I'll put on Harmonys and expect no problems with that tire.
I still think you've got it wrong, but I'm convinced I'm not going to be able change your mind - so I'm going to move on.
The 1977 Olds manual: If they had a dial indicator in the drawing, then they were measuring runout - and as I explained above, isn't uniformity. They used to use runout (some still do) since that was about the only way to determine what condition the tire was in.
Radial runout is measured at the tread with no weight on the tire. The setup they showed was measuring vertical movement at the wheel bearing bolt with the weight of the car on the tire. That was the actual "crush" of the tire was being checked. If I can find the manual, I'll try to scan the sketch.
I found it interesting that they were aware of runout under load as a problem then. That was when GM had TPC tires that had to meet their specs on as original equipment. The tires had a solid center tread that carried weight cruising which reduced noise from the treat. I replaced originals with Goodyear replacements. Didn't work well.
I saved the old Olds manuals thinking some day a collector would pay money for an original manual... need to find them olds ones and start hitting the classic car cruise-ins.
The need to find ways to deal with wheel end vibrations - tire, wheel, mounting etc. hasn't disappeared. That's why balancing, match mounting, etc. still are around. But tire truing was only somewhat effective before radial tires and pretty much ineffective after.
So radial tires hasn't eliminated the need, it just doesn't work well enough to keep the machine around.
I remember working at goodyear 20 years ago and thinking how stupid it was to spin balance a tire in the air and pound on a 1/2 ounce weight and charge $6.00 to do it. and send the customer out in the snow and mud let the wheel get packed with ice and snow and completely defeat the purpose of balancing the tire... I think it is a scam. If you have a good rim and a good tire what is a 1/2 ounce weight going to do? especcially as the balance would change with the weather and tread wear out. I remember drag racing with unbalanced tires and going over 100mph and never feeling any vibration. Yes I do have my tires balanced but I can't help but think I'm paying alot of money for nothing. I hope one of you guys with first hand knowledge will enlighten me on this. Thanks.
Well, as an experiment, take all the weights off your tires and see how it does on the highway.
You Are right that ice packing in can up balance the tires though, but I don't think it is that common, since either it fill the rim evenly, or gets knocked off as you drive.
The only set of tires I saw that didn't need balancing were back in 1961-62. They were new car take-offs, Uniroyal. Picked them up at a local gas station. The owner took them off his car and put his Gulf? station brand tire on the new car. They were great, one or two needed 1/4 ounce. Back in those days cars and tires weren't as sensitive to imbalance.
Otherwise the tires need to be balanced unless you only drive under 30.
You may be right but it isn't enough proof for me. I have seen cheap radials that needed a balance because they were $30 tires. Point #1. What your saying is that the tire companies reputation is dependant on some kid at a gas station pounding weights on their tires. Their incompatance would be interprited as poor tire quality. Point #2 Of course they will tell you your tires need to be balanced because it is easy money. Just like an 3000 mile oil change. Point #3 The only time I have ever noticed a tire balance issue was when I had a ply separation or a bent rim. Point #4 No human could sense the improper placement of a 1/2 ounce weight on a rim. When considering the road isn't as flat as glass and suspension of the car, Or the hubcap you pounded on isn't dented. you can feel this? Point #5 Premature wearout is unlikely because the tire is in a constant state of changing loads and speeds. How would we ever really know for sure? I have experimented with this several times on vehicles and Only on a cheapest tire in town did I tell the difference. And like the old saying goes, you get what you pay for. Thanks for the replys
"Point #1. ....Their incompatance would be interprited as poor tire quality."
Sad, but true.
"Point #2 ...it is easy money...."
Well not exactly as most places group the cost of mounting and balancing together.
"Point #3....was when I had a ply separation or a bent rim.
That's not a balance issue, that's a vibration issue and those 2 items aren't going to get fixed by balancing the tire and wheel assembly.
"Point #4 No human could sense the improper placement of a 1/2 ounce weight on a rim."
As a general rule this is true. Part of this is that weights come in 1/2 oz increments and the weight required is always rounded, so the actual imbalance remaining is between +1/4 oz and -1/4 oz.
"Point #5"
I'm not sure what this point was.
But I think the question was - Does it make a difference - of course, you qualified this by saying "with a good rim and tire".
I could go through all kinds of mathematical analyses to show how much effect balance has on vibrations, but rather than do that, let me try this:
If balancing tires is a waste of time and money, why does every vehicle manufacturer do it? Not just some - ALL of them!
Actually the fact that small amounts of snow and slush can unbalance a tire proves that the distibution of weight around the wheel does affect balance.
Thanks for the reply, The technical term I used was "Fishy". Not stupid, or unessassary, just "fishy". Manufacturers insure the quality of the rim and tire by balancing them. I would never put a new set of tires on without balancing them. I remember pounding excesive amounts of weights on some rims that should have been scrapped. Do these mathamatical formulas tell you when to junk a rim or tire? also I remember seeing several rims that were missing the weights because they were laying along side a highway some place. I also remember seeing bead leaks caused by rim weights and oxidation of the aluminum. My point I made about the ply separation or bent rim was the point at which I could actually perceive a problem with a tire. I have a friend who has his tires balanced religiously every oil change and he swears he can tell the difference. Maybe he can, It just seems fishy to me.
"Do these mathamatical formulas tell you when to junk a rim or tire?"
No, the analyses I had in mind were along the lines of how much out of balance causes how much vibration - but I don't really want to go there - Too much barely understandable, technical stuff.
I can give you some ideas about what values are too high for a wheel or tire or the combination, but these would be uniformity values and not balance. IMHO, since balance is strictly a mass distribution problem, there really aren't any upper limits other than the fact that too much weight just doesn't look good.
" I remember seeing several rims that were missing the weights "
Unfortunately, there are about 8 different rim flange configurations and you have to have the proper weight to fit the contour of the flange.
" also remember seeing bead leaks caused by rim weights and oxidation of the aluminum."
Yup, coated weights are the answer, but they are more expensive and some shops don't want to be bothered with an expense that has no benefit for themselves.
"he swears he can tell the difference."
I've learned that there are threshold values for each car, below which the average guy will not percieve a vibration. Some of these thresholds are pretty low, some pretty high. Of course, it would be best if vehicle manufacturers made their vehicle with high threshold values, but these are things that are discovered AFTER the vehicle has gone into production. Prototype vehicles just don't seem to react the same.
I also know that some folks are sensitive and some aren't. Plus people seem to have the ability to focus in on something and it becomes hard to get them not to focus on it. The way I've heard it put is: "Once you've sensitized someone, you have to overcompensate."
I have noticed on my tyre walls a dent or depression running from the wheel to the tread as if that is where the tyre was joined together when being manufactured. Is this a fault or normal on a large tyre? (size 305 x 70).
I had that on a set of passenger tires a few years back; every tire had several dents on the sidewall. It's normal; just a result of the tire lay up process, or so I read on here.
I just got a flat tire (screw piereced the sidewall) and was glad the car has a full-size spare - 03 VW Passat 1.8GL. (35K miles; front-wheel drive). Now I I have to get a new spare. I've been very happy with the OEM "Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus"- handle really well in all seasons - but they are costly at about $130 including mounting on the wheel. For about half the price I can get the Falken Ziex Z-512 - $65 - the one Consumer Reports liked so much. And then there are all those other tires out there - Bridgestone potenza, etc etc.
Anybody have any suggestions? One reason for staying with Michelin is so I have the same tires on all four wheels (after the next one blows, or if I have to replace just three of them). But ... as I was saying.... anyone have any suggestions? Comments? Insights? Info? Thanks!
I just talked to the guy at a local store - he likes the Michelin Energy, but says on his Jetta he switched to the Michelin Pilot (not sure if "Exalto" or XGT h4) and said he didn't really notice much difference - but it's a lot cheaper. He said the Falken isn't as good a tire.
Any comments? Sounds to me like I should go with the "Pilot"
Perhaps if you described what you want a tire to do for you, we can offer some opinions on various tires.
That Falken tire is more of a performance all season tire, maybe not ideal for winter use. The Michelin is kind of a luxury touring tire; smooth, quiet ride, lower rolling resistance for better mileage. So, two different types of tires. Perhaps one type is more appealing??
Thanks, Bretfraz - clearly put - of the two types you describe the Michelin is more what I'm looking for. So the question is: shd I stick with the (more expensive) Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus, or go with the less expensive Michelin Pilot (and if that, the Exalto or XGT h4) - or is there another option I don't know about? Thanks again
Why not check the Michelin website for the tires available that fit the size your car needs. Compare the mileage chart and traction charts they have on the site. I put Harmony by Michelins on my car.
You can input your car type or tire size and they offer suggestions. According to their website, your car has 195/65-15 size tires. There are several very good choices in that size.
If you're happy with the Michelins but want something a little cheaper, check out the Bridgestone Turanza LS-H. They've been getting a lot of great reviews.
I have seperate winter/summer tires for my cars that I just get mounted on the same set of wheels depending on the season. So, basically, both sets of tires get unmounted and then remounted the next season.
I'm wondering if this mounting/unmounting/storing/remounting does any damage to the tires, like weakens the sidewalls, makes the tires softer, etc....?
Thanks!
PS: I'm not concerned about cosmetic damage to my wheels.
What's the deal with Sam's Club tires? I purchased Michelin LTX M/S for my truck (love 'em, 2nd set) and when I price shopped at Sam's, it appears that their tires are named/labled somewhat differently. No LTX M/S. Do they have "look alikes" or does Michelin allow only their approved dealers to sell the first line tires? Does Sam's sell equivalent quality tires? How about Sears?
Lots of suppliers (like Michelin) will make an exclusive product for large retailers like WalMart and Sears. Many times they take an existing product and use a model number created for that retailer.
At Sammies the private labeled version of the LTX M/S is called the XC LT4. Same tire, different model number. Sammies also offers an exclusive warranty that is different than the normal broad line tires. The catch is, to get warranty service, you have to go back to Sam's. The usual Michelin dealers will not honor the Sam's exclusive warranty because they do not have access to that specific tire model.
You might be able to special order the LTX tire. Ask at the counter to see their tire book with all the brands and sizes they can get you. I know I've seen the Cross Terrain in that book.
No, but every time a tire is mounted, there is a danger that the bead toe might be damaged IF the tech doesn't properly lube the beads and the rim. And since rubber gets hard over time, especially when it is heated (in this case it's the brakes), the older the tire, the more likely that is to happen.
If a bead toe is damaged, pressurized air might find its way into the casing and contribute to a separation. The process is called "intracarcass pressurization".
So it would be better if the tires were mounted once and only once.
If you dig through the available tires and the listings of all tires on the Michelin site you can find all the special branded tires. http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/index.html "Browse our tire catalogue" and pick the type of vehicle and look for the tire you want at the left side. Don't forget to click "compare this tire" in the chart after you select SUV. You can compare properties to see how similar X 4LT and LTX M/Sare. Or use "Find a specific tire" at the right side and the tire you want should be listed.
I went through this shopping Harmony, Agility, Destiny. Similar tires at Michelin, Discount Tires and Sears. Slight differences in tread pattern and in tread depth in case of sears 1/32 less depth, but more tread contact area. I ended up with Harmony because if was rated little better for snow and I have a Michelin dealer who would match prices with other Michelin tires at Michelin dealers (wouldn't match Sears or Discount -- different tire they said. Maybe slightly different rubber?
The XC LT4 is the Sears version. Select LT is the Wal-Mart version. X Radial LT is the Sams/Costo/BJ store version. I have seen and confirmed that I can get the regular LTX MS at my Sam Club location in addition to the X Radial LT. A couple of years ago the X Radial LT in my size could be had at about $108/tire ... I think the LTX were $12-$20 more per tire. Now the difference is about $2 tire. I got the Select LTs at Walmart.. More locations, but not normally stocked. One of the original 4 had vibration problems and after several attempts Walmart replaced the questionable tire...but they did have to order it. One difference is the number of sizes available in each...5-6 sizes in te Select LT ...the regular LTX MS in different sizes and configs (LT vs P, etc) has about 55 listed and about half that number in the Sears & warehouse club versions.
I recently took my 1999 Ford Explorer in to have my brakes looked at and they called and said that all of my tires are "chopped." I have never heard of this expression before. The way he explained it to me is that my tires used to be perfectly rounded, but now they are jagged in shape and if I run my hand over them I could feel it. You can't see it from just looking at them. He said this has happened because of someone not balancing/aligning my tires correctly. He said this is what is causing the whirring sound when I drive. And yes there is a sound that sounds like "weer weer weer weer" if that makes sense. Of course he said he could replace them all for about $350. I insisted he tell me if this would hurt my Explorer, and he said it would not. So what would be the point of replacing the tires? Can it be solved by rotating them? I do it about once a year and should do it more. I guess my question is what will solve the problem? Is having chopped tires bad? I'm just confused, I'd never heard of chopped tires! :confuse:
I do not have any experience with the Ford Explorer but had three covered Ford Vans 150's 250. and ALL of them at some time developed the "layered" effect on the tires.:(
If I understand the term chopped tire, I would think that a rear-wheel drive car would smooth those back out over a period of time when they were on the rear wheels. So frequent switching and keeping them balanced would slowly fix the unevenness. For front-wheel drive vehicles, the rear wheel positions don't smooth the tires much because there is no driving force on the tires; when tires are on the front they are subjected to steering and driving forces, so they don't get cleaned up there as much.
Close, but FWD cars do have as much driving force as RWD, it's just that most of the action takes place on one pair, rather than distributed between 2 pairs.
It's been my experience that RWD vehicle get shoulder wear on the front tires and center wear on the rear tires and the wear rates are about the same.
FWD get the same wear pattern, but the rate is 2 1/2 times as fast on the front compared to the rear.
Freewheeling tires are the most likely to get irregular wear - whether it's called chopped, cupped, feathering, flatspots, slipped belts, diagonal wear etc.
Drive tires don't seem to suffer much from irregular wear, and like you, I suspect the torque that is applied to the tread surface has a significant effect on the wear action.
Comments
It could be a bad batch that particular store got or it could be a bad run of tires that several/all stores have. Impossible to know for sure.
Have you discussed this with the manager/team leader? Exchanging a couple of defective tires for new ones is reasonable. Exchanging tires, defect after defect after defect, is not. They need to start giving you some real options beyond "lets try another pair".
Interesting side note: I was talking to a manager of a local tire & alignment shop and he said some tire models are always out of round, regardless of who sells them. For example, he told me he has never seen a good Dunlop GT Qualifier tire in the past 10 years. All of them he has sold and installed have been out of round to some extent and he's exchanged dozens of defective tires. So this is a problem with plenty of tire models. Some are just better made than others.
When my Buick dealer was force-balancing my Michelins as we were trouble-shooting the slight vibration on my LeSabre..., he was putting a new set of Goodyears on a TransAm with balance problems. The new ones were way above the allowed force measure for my LeSabre. He commented that some tires are not good even when new. That's why Buick (and Cadillac) had gone only to Michelins for the replacements when trouble-shooting Park AVenues and Cadillacs if they didn't already have Michelins.
Tire manufacture hasn't kept up with the improved unsprung mass amounts and stiffness in newer cars and it's showing up at imbalance in tires and vibration sent through the stiffer chasses.
WalMart sells Symmetry tires by Michelin and some lesser models. I'd ask them to substitute Symmetry tires for you and force balance them. Unless your rims are out of round (they can check that) your problem should be fixed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
GM has some vehicles that don't have this characteristic, like the Lumina and the Buick Century, and these vehicle don't require anything special for tires.
So I don't think the problem is tire manufacturers not keeping pace.
>wheel end rotation frequencies
Can you explain those more clearly for me?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When folks talk about direction relative to the tire, they use these terms:
Radial - this would be in the direction along the radius (diameter) from the center outward. In terms of the vehicle, this would be up and down.
Lateral - this would be in the direction along the axis (axle). In terms of the vehicle, this would be side to side.
Circumferential - this would be in the direction perpendicular to the radial direction, but along the circumference, not lateral.. For the purposes of unformity, we use the term Tangential or Fore/aft, to prevent confusion when we abbreviate.
As a tire rolls, it is deflected and there are some variations in the way it rolls. Generally vehicles are sensitive to Radial forces, and most sensitive to the 1st harmonic - once per revolution.
Vehicles are relatively insensitive to lateral forces, but lateral forces generally are generated by belt placement variation, and this is something that tire manufacturers have spent quite a bit of time working on.
The above uniformity parameters have been well known for over 30 years and tire manufacturers measure these in production, and those with high values are kicked out.
In recent years, in the process of discovering why certain vibrating vehicles don't seem to get fixed by to reducing radial forces, Tangential force variation has been identified as the source of the vibration. This also seems to be more of a problem at higher speeds. Since the machines that measure production tires are low speed machines, you can't use them as a screening tool. Plus, the production source of tangential variation is a bit elusive. However, it has been found that making the sidewall stiffer helps, but this is exactly the thing that hurts ride harshness - and since the vehicles where this is important are mostly luxory sedans, this is not an appropriate direction to pursue.
I hope this wasn't too technical and that I explained what is going on.
I have no problem paying for a more expensive tire if it means my car will ride smoothly. The tech at Honda feels that the American Eagle is just a bad tire all together...which is another reason I would like an entirely different tire. We'll see, thanks to Hurricane Dennis it should be raining all weekend here, plenty of time to spend wandering around Super Walmart for 4 hours while they replace my tires AGAIN.
Force variation has been around a long time. I believe I still have an Oldsmobile Service Manual for 1977 showing a device to attach to the hub on the front wheel and rotate the wheel under the weight of the car to measure force variation in the tire.
The explanation for force variation having more of an effect on the wheel/tire/suspension parts is that they have all gotten lighter along with the tire sidewalls getting stiffer. (The tires that have trouble seem to be 60 series and shorter, just as Capriceracer said.) Add the stiffer body and you have something you can feel at least part of the time.
My LeSabre had it slightly, balanced, rebalanced later again. Then I mentioned it seemed to show up on a smooth interstate uphill under light acceleration and didn't on deceleration. Service manager realigned, toe front not at optimum, rear toed in slightly-not at optimum. Sensation gone.
I am sensitive to out-of-balance and out-of-round more than most, according to my service manager. But it's not come back. So if it were something related to the car design, as the tires wore it would have returned.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When it comes to force variation (as well as tires), there are 3 directions - Radial, Lateral, and Tangential. If you look at the side of a car (so the tire is a circle) the radial direction is up and down - the lateral direction is towards you and away from you, - and the tangential direction is left and right.
What the vehicle experiences is a little different. Tangential forces act like driveline torsional vibration. You mentioned your LeSabre had a vibration on acceleration, but not on braking. This was caused by the engine pulses transmitted through the drivetrain. This is the effect you get with tangential forces. - and it kind of points out the sensitivity of the LeSabre to this kind of force. Most vehicles don't have this kind of sensitivity. The lighter weight suspension components and the stiffer chassis don't help the situation, but the increased stiffness of the sidewall only affects the ride quality (harshness) and not the vibrations. The real solution to the vibration problem for these vehicles seems to be elusive.
Radial force variation and radial run out are loosely related. It wasn't until recently that an effective and reasonably inexpensive machine was available to measure force variation - the Hunter GSP9700. It has its limitations, but it is a better tool to solve these problems than was available before.
I agree, force variation HAS been around a long time, but check your 1977 Olds Service manual and I think you'll find the machine you describe was for "on the car" balancing.
Quote " But it's not come back. So if it were something related to the car design, as the tires wore it would have returned. " End of Quote
Here I respectfully disagree. We've measured tangential forces as the tire wears, and they don't seem to change much, and, if anything, they improve. So I still think this is a vehicle sensitivity issue. But I will also say that we haven't measured the vehicle sensitivity as the vehicle accumulates mileage (I suspect GM has), but I would think that the vehicle sensitivity to tangential forces (as well as all other force variation) decreases with mileage.
OK, if you don't mind - please explain your pseudonym It reminds me of "Imzadi"
Deanna Troi wouldn't use it unless she has allergies - imidazol aka imidazole is an antihistamine.
tidester, host
They don't do this anymore, and no one has the machines...with all of this talk about out-of-round tires, why isn't this a standard procedure when selling and mounting all new tires???...it just seems to make sense...no one would ever put on a tire without balancing, as it is assumed that every mounted tire is out of balance...why not true the tires and take away the other variable, roundness???
Bias tires responded well to truing, but radials don't. That's because in a bias ply tire, zero load run out correlates well to loaded force variation. In a radial tire, the correlation is much poorer - to the point where you have only a 60% chance of fixing a tire related vibration.
And I think what you are missing is that force variation is what the vehicle experiences, not "out-of-roundness". Everyone talks about "out-of-round" simply because it's an easy concept to visualize. But we are dealing with something flexible and the vehicle always experiences the tire in a deflected state.
Hope this helps.
>LeSabre had a vibration on acceleration, but not on braking.
I did not say that motor vibrations occurred. I said that after the first run at improving the tire balancing (Hunter 9700) when I drove on smoothly repaved interstate 65 to Nashville, I noted that the occasional, slight imbalance showed up on upgrades where the motor had to pull to hold the cruise control speed; on downgrades I never noticed it. This was a fade in, fade out kind of slight imbalance--my wife didn't notice it when she drove and didn't notice it just riding. I indicated I'm anal about how the car feels.
It was not motor vibration; it was the slight change in suspension positioning due to forward pull on the wheels. Hence slight, normal alignment change--so we checked and improved the alignment and it was gone.
>increased stiffness of the sidewall only affects the ride quality (harshness) and not the vibrations.
The stiffness of the sidewalls affects how the suspension reacts to the variations in the crush of the sidewalls which causes radial runout type forces. The softer General Ameritech tires on 15 inch rims on LeSabres don't seem to have the problems.
>1977 Olds Service manual and I think you'll find the machine you describe was for "on the car" balancing.
The sketch was of a car resting on rollers under the wheel and the device attached to the bolt that held the wheel bearings on to measure the wheel's up and down movement as the tire and rim unit rotated slowly. A dial gauge measured the radial runout.
The service manager drove the car a couple of times with a vibration sensor attached to different parts, seat track, steering column, dash board. He found the vibration was low after the first 9700 balancing and checked the harmonics. All told him what I was feeling was wheels. He went from there and it's gone. I have several opinions as to where it came from. But it's gone and the car is great. When I replace the tires, I'll put on Harmonys and expect no problems with that tire.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The 1977 Olds manual: If they had a dial indicator in the drawing, then they were measuring runout - and as I explained above, isn't uniformity. They used to use runout (some still do) since that was about the only way to determine what condition the tire was in.
Hope this helps.
Radial runout is measured at the tread with no weight on the tire. The setup they showed was measuring vertical movement at the wheel bearing bolt with the weight of the car on the tire. That was the actual "crush" of the tire was being checked. If I can find the manual, I'll try to scan the sketch.
I found it interesting that they were aware of runout under load as a problem then. That was when GM had TPC tires that had to meet their specs on as original equipment. The tires had a solid center tread that carried weight cruising which reduced noise from the treat. I replaced originals with Goodyear replacements. Didn't work well.
I saved the old Olds manuals thinking some day a collector would pay money for an original manual... need to find them olds ones and start hitting the classic car cruise-ins.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The need to find ways to deal with wheel end vibrations - tire, wheel, mounting etc. hasn't disappeared. That's why balancing, match mounting, etc. still are around. But tire truing was only somewhat effective before radial tires and pretty much ineffective after.
So radial tires hasn't eliminated the need, it just doesn't work well enough to keep the machine around.
You Are right that ice packing in can up balance the tires though, but I don't think it is that common, since either it fill the rim evenly, or gets knocked off as you drive.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Otherwise the tires need to be balanced unless you only drive under 30.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Sad, but true.
"Point #2 ...it is easy money...."
Well not exactly as most places group the cost of mounting and balancing together.
"Point #3....was when I had a ply separation or a bent rim.
That's not a balance issue, that's a vibration issue and those 2 items aren't going to get fixed by balancing the tire and wheel assembly.
"Point #4 No human could sense the improper placement of a 1/2 ounce weight on a rim."
As a general rule this is true. Part of this is that weights come in 1/2 oz increments and the weight required is always rounded, so the actual imbalance remaining is between +1/4 oz and -1/4 oz.
"Point #5"
I'm not sure what this point was.
But I think the question was - Does it make a difference - of course, you qualified this by saying "with a good rim and tire".
I could go through all kinds of mathematical analyses to show how much effect balance has on vibrations, but rather than do that, let me try this:
If balancing tires is a waste of time and money, why does every vehicle manufacturer do it? Not just some - ALL of them!
the distibution of weight around the wheel does affect balance.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
The technical term I used was "Fishy". Not stupid, or unessassary, just "fishy". Manufacturers insure the quality of the rim and tire by balancing them. I would never put a new set of tires on without balancing them. I remember pounding excesive amounts of weights on some rims that should have been scrapped. Do these mathamatical formulas tell you when to junk a rim or tire? also I remember seeing several rims that were missing the weights because they were laying along side a highway some place. I also remember seeing bead leaks caused by rim weights and oxidation of the aluminum. My point I made about the ply separation or bent rim was the point at which I could actually perceive a problem with a tire. I have a friend who has his tires balanced religiously every oil change and he swears he can tell the difference. Maybe he can, It just seems fishy to me.
No, the analyses I had in mind were along the lines of how much out of balance causes how much vibration - but I don't really want to go there - Too much barely understandable, technical stuff.
I can give you some ideas about what values are too high for a wheel or tire or the combination, but these would be uniformity values and not balance. IMHO, since balance is strictly a mass distribution problem, there really aren't any upper limits other than the fact that too much weight just doesn't look good.
" I remember seeing several rims that were missing the weights "
Unfortunately, there are about 8 different rim flange configurations and you have to have the proper weight to fit the contour of the flange.
" also remember seeing bead leaks caused by rim weights and oxidation of the aluminum."
Yup, coated weights are the answer, but they are more expensive and some shops don't want to be bothered with an expense that has no benefit for themselves.
"he swears he can tell the difference."
I've learned that there are threshold values for each car, below which the average guy will not percieve a vibration. Some of these thresholds are pretty low, some pretty high. Of course, it would be best if vehicle manufacturers made their vehicle with high threshold values, but these are things that are discovered AFTER the vehicle has gone into production. Prototype vehicles just don't seem to react the same.
I also know that some folks are sensitive and some aren't. Plus people seem to have the ability to focus in on something and it becomes hard to get them not to focus on it. The way I've heard it put is: "Once you've sensitized someone, you have to overcompensate."
Hope this helps.
Is this a fault or normal on a large tyre? (size 305 x 70).
Steve, Host
Anybody have any suggestions? One reason for staying with Michelin is so I have the same tires on all four wheels (after the next one blows, or if I have to replace just three of them). But ... as I was saying.... anyone have any suggestions? Comments? Insights? Info? Thanks!
Any comments? Sounds to me like I should go with the "Pilot"
That Falken tire is more of a performance all season tire, maybe not ideal for winter use. The Michelin is kind of a luxury touring tire; smooth, quiet ride, lower rolling resistance for better mileage. So, two different types of tires. Perhaps one type is more appealing??
Thanks again
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you're happy with the Michelins but want something a little cheaper, check out the Bridgestone Turanza LS-H. They've been getting a lot of great reviews.
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I'm wondering if this mounting/unmounting/storing/remounting does any damage to the tires, like weakens the sidewalls, makes the tires softer, etc....?
Thanks!
PS: I'm not concerned about cosmetic damage to my wheels.
At Sammies the private labeled version of the LTX M/S is called the XC LT4. Same tire, different model number. Sammies also offers an exclusive warranty that is different than the normal broad line tires. The catch is, to get warranty service, you have to go back to Sam's. The usual Michelin dealers will not honor the Sam's exclusive warranty because they do not have access to that specific tire model.
You might be able to special order the LTX tire. Ask at the counter to see their tire book with all the brands and sizes they can get you. I know I've seen the Cross Terrain in that book.
If a bead toe is damaged, pressurized air might find its way into the casing and contribute to a separation. The process is called "intracarcass pressurization".
So it would be better if the tires were mounted once and only once.
Hope this helps.
http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/index.html
"Browse our tire catalogue" and pick the type of vehicle and look for the tire you want at the left side. Don't forget to click "compare this tire" in the chart after you select SUV. You can compare properties to see how similar X 4LT and LTX M/Sare.
Or use
"Find a specific tire" at the right side and the tire you want should be listed.
I went through this shopping Harmony, Agility, Destiny. Similar tires at Michelin, Discount Tires and Sears. Slight differences in tread pattern and in tread depth in case of sears 1/32 less depth, but more tread contact area. I ended up with Harmony because if was rated little better for snow and I have a Michelin dealer who would match prices with other Michelin tires at Michelin dealers (wouldn't match Sears or Discount -- different tire they said. Maybe slightly different rubber?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
See my post #269 (May 21, 2003) in Snow/Ice winter tires (Aftermarket & Accessories).
Hopefully you are not having mounting/unmounting done at Sam's Club!
I've heard that Explorers are kind of prone to this, but I don't have personal experience to back that up.
Certainly an alignment should be on the list of things to do. THEN do a rotation.
So "solve the problem" might wind up being "minimize the problem".
Is it bad? Other than the noise, the vibration, (which might show up later) and the reduced wear life, this isn't bad at all.
Hope this helps.
Am I on the right track?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Close, but FWD cars do have as much driving force as RWD, it's just that most of the action takes place on one pair, rather than distributed between 2 pairs.
It's been my experience that RWD vehicle get shoulder wear on the front tires and center wear on the rear tires and the wear rates are about the same.
FWD get the same wear pattern, but the rate is 2 1/2 times as fast on the front compared to the rear.
Freewheeling tires are the most likely to get irregular wear - whether it's called chopped, cupped, feathering, flatspots, slipped belts, diagonal wear etc.
Drive tires don't seem to suffer much from irregular wear, and like you, I suspect the torque that is applied to the tread surface has a significant effect on the wear action.
Hope this helps.