Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

ateixeira · February 2002

Are you going to wait and sample a few more models before you buy? A new Forester will be out in mid-May, FWIW.

-juice

gsogymrat · February 2002

I'll definitely look at the new Forester. My lease is up in June but I may wait until the fall before buying a new SUV. I have a 39 month, 41k mile lease on my 1999 Jeep Cherokee. Of course at 37K miles, just out of warranty, the engine has developed a problem that 2 different mechanics can't identify. I'm praying it holds together until June.

ateixeira · February 2002

DCX just recalled 1.6 trannies that would roll out of park, yours may be affected by that, too.

The lease timing is perfect. The Forester arrives in late May, so supply will be good right around the time your lease expires.

Subaru has a 5/60 powertrain warranty. Mazda's is 3/50, but Hyundai beats everyone (except Isuzu) in that regard. Jeep and Ford need to beef up their warranty program. I think Jeep had a temporary 7/100 deal, but they should make it permanent.

-juice

suvshopper4 · February 2002

I read something interesting about the Chrysler 7 years / 100k miles deal: It is not a warranty, and they are careful not to label it as such. There is a deductible. Every time you go to the dealer, even if they are repeated trips to fix the same problem, you pay the deductible ($50?).

ateixeira · February 2002

Really? I guess there had to be a catch.

I think 36k miles is just way to short nowadays. Some people drive that far in a year and a half.

-juice

vin_weasel · February 2002

The transmission that had the problems was the one from the Grand Cherokee, made by Chrysler (I think). The basic Cherokee has the AW4 (Aisin Warner from Japan) Auto Transmission also found in 4 Runners and a handful of other vehicles. It's considered to be an excellent transmission. BTW, I think the Liberty uses a Chrysler made transmission.

scape2 · February 2002

the new Forester offer a V6? This is where Honda CRV missed the boat. The small V6's are what most people want for towing, hauling and just plain passing power..
The Jeep Liberty will out tow the Escape/Trib. I assume you have a pop up trailer? If its under 3K pounds the Escape will tow it just fine. I tow my two jet skiis along with a load of gear in my Escape just fine.
Hyundia can't afford to keep this 10yr/100000 mile warranty forever. This is going to make them go even farther into debt. Look at what happend to Nissan and their cheap lease rates.. It took Renault to bail them out of that one....

ateixeira · February 2002

Liberty will out tow the Escape, but remember the Cherokee had more torque than the Liberty does, plus at a much lower rpm. That's not what most buyers are shopping for any more, at least not in the compact SUV class.

Regardless, Subaru will offer more power for MY2004. We're not sure what engine it'll be, but Autoweek speculated it will be a turbo, probably 2.5l turbo instead of the 2.0l turbo in the WRX, precisely because of low-end torque.

But some say the H6 is more likely. The new models are called 2.5 S and 2.5 XS, which points towards a 3.0 XS model if you ask me. That would mean the H6 engine from the VDC, with 212hp. That engine actually makes 217hp in Japan, and that would make the Forester easily the quickest in the class, given it's intensive diet and use of aluminum will make it 90 pounds lighter.

Sounds yummy. I may have to buy a 2nd!

-juice

scname · February 2002

I own the new Honda, don't think it missed the boat, the 4 has lots of power. I'm getting 24 mpg vs Escape's 18 as reported by owners.

Hyundai's 10/100000 warranty is doubling sales for them and making dealers all the routine maintenance money.

carseeker4 · February 2002

Juice:
In an earlier post (BTW, Thanks for ALL your input... Edmund's should hire you!),
you mentioned that Subaru "lifted" the 2003 Forester. How much? Right now its
officially rated at 7.5. I'm considering a Forester (even a 2002), but would like
a bit more ground clearance.... (the CRV and Tribute have very good clearances,
8.1 and 8.4 respectively).... are the any "official" stats mentioning ground clearance
on the 2003 Forester? I know that 3/4 of an inch does not sound like a lot, but when
I measure key points (like the muffler, cat converter, side door line),
the Forester comes up fairly "low" compared to the Trib or CRV..... Thanks....
Ted

javaswing · February 2002

>They have a policy that if you are going to sell it in China is must be at least made in China....

This is just not true. I do not know where you get that idea, in your dreams or from some anti-china propaganda?

If you look at cars on beijing's street, you will find BMW, Mercedes, Lincoln(towncar etc...) Chevy(in the mid 90s, corsica, Lumina van and Celebrity were extremely popular in Beijing) Cadillac Hyundai etc... Last time I checked, they do not make those cars in China. There is a factory in Shanghai that manufactures a model of Buick nowadays, but it is sold purely in China.

scape2 · February 2002

admit, when I am forced to buy from a Country (China) that absolutely hates our guts it gets me wondering. You have already forgoten the spy plane incident? And the thousands upon thousands of Chinese that burned the U.S. flag and chanted anti-U.S. slogans????? Wake up, get out on the net and read.. China hates America, we have lost more good paying, family wage jobs to China than any other country in U.S. history. This is not a place to debate foreign policy. I just wince when I see how in the dark the American public really is....

dielectric7bb · February 2002

I like how China makes our American flags that people are driving with on their cars (Ok, I've seen some that were made in Canada). It makes me laugh.

oregonboy · February 2002

tidester · February 2002

This, from the Shanghai Foreign Investment Service Center, may shed some light on the Chinese position regarding automobile manufacturing:

However, the manufacturing of automobiles, 
motorcycles, and engines are categorized as a 
Type B restricted industry for foreign investment.

Thus, only Sino-foreign equity and contractual 
joint ventures can be set up. Moreover, the 
Chinese party must have a majority stake or be
the dominant party in the management.

You can read more here.

tidester

Host

SUVs

suvshopper4 · February 2002

javaswing #1712: "Chevy(in the mid 90s, corsica, Lumina van and Celebrity were extremely popular in Beijing)"

and

scape2 #1713: "a Country (China) that absolutely hates our guts"

ateixeira · February 2002

Ted: photos make it look like is has more ground clearance, but Subaru's official figure is still 7.5".

The trick is the old one really only had about 6.8", so perhaps the new one has a true, blue 7.5" of clearance. The angle of departure looks better, but I'm not sure about the angle of approach.

Do what I did, though - get bigger tires. Mine is about 3/4" higher than stock. I've been on 3 different beaches, and on an off-road run in the Pine Barrens on unimproved roads (sand and dirt), and never had a problem.

The arrive in May, so do yourself a favor and drive one. They really are fun, nimble, efficient. The new one will be 90 lbs lighter, with quicker steering and a wider stance, so it'll only get even sportier.

-juice

carseeker4 · February 2002

Thanks for the input on the ground clearance, juice. I have a concern about waiting for the 2003, since I don't want to get in a bidding war or a 3 month wait for a new Forester, similar to what's going on with the CRV. By the time May rolls around, I will want to get rid of my current car and not wait for delivery! The ground clearance issues revolves mainly around water.
I live in hilly country north of Philly and we've had a lot of flooding over the past couple years (Floyd and Allison just two name 2 visitors!) and I'd like a bit more to get thru situations like that since my road to and from work is loaded with potential rivulets! I'm not at all concerned about the snow - in that case the Forester's lack of ground clearance is more than made up for with its advanced AWD system. But thanks again....I thought studying the cars well in advance would make the choice easier... NOT!!!
-Ted

ateixeira · February 2002

You'd be surprised, I expect Forester to sell for about $700 over invoice right from the start. The segment is very competitive now. I doubt they'll increase prices very much, either.

Water? I have a nice photos of a water crossing I did, water splashing all over the place. e-mail me if you'd like a copy. :-)

The intake is pretty high, above waist level, so air doesn't get into the intake. You can get a rear skid plate, and the front comes with a plastic one that keeps splashes of water off the block and electricals.

-juice

carseeker4 · February 2002

Thanks for the input juice. So, how deep WAS that water? :-)

mf15 · February 2002

Just a thought if your coming off a chrysler lease
you can get a base 4x4 grand cherokee for about 22000. Thats 2500 consumer cash,1000 lease loyalty cash, and in my case a 500 ex military
rebate. If not leasing it would be 23000 not using the lease cash. You should be able to get it close to invoice right now minus all the incentives. Mike

javaswing · February 2002

tidester: the policy you quoted concerns only manufacturing of automobiles inside China. It places no restriction on what you can sell. Besides, as China is already part of the WTO, one would certainly expect that such restriction would be lifted soon if not alreay.

scape2: It seems you have conceded that you presented incorrect information.

suvshopper4: fantastic

tidester · February 2002

I realize that but the point of the post was that there are restrictions, not only on manufacturing in China but on retail as well. It is not unreasonable to expect restrictions on auto sales as the Chinese imposed major ones on Boeing, for example, in the airplane deals just a few years back.

Boeing wanted to sell aircraft to the PRC and the PRC wanted to buy them ... but required that the planes be manufactured IN China.

Whether there are BMW and other European factories in China, I can't say but I would be a little surprised if there were no "content" clauses imposed by Beijing. It is also possible the Europeans are simply better at negotiating deals with the Chinese than was the previous administration. When you adopt the policy of "trade at any cost," you lose a lot of leverage.

If you know for a fact that there are no such restrictions on the European companies (or American) I'd like to see the references.

tidester
Host
SUVs

scape2 · February 2002

I don't want to start debating foreign policy in an Edmunds chat room. There is a heap of information about China and its trade practices all over the net. I just hope Americans wake up in time to see what is happening... Along with our elected officials...

javaswing · February 2002

tidester: check out the following website:

http://www.cheshi.com.cn/

It contains list price of BWM/Audi/Mercedes/Lexus/Chrysler(300M and PT Cruiser) in Beijing. According to Edmunds website, most of them are not made in China. You first presented irrelevant information, then presented nothing but pure conjecture. I had expected better from board host. I sure hope you did not write all those car reviews in Edmunds.

scape2: I just pointed out you were mistaken. If you are wrong, at least have the courage to admit it or have the decency to shut up. Do you ever wonder how many things about China you believe to be true are indeed correct?

tidester · February 2002

I have no idea where that came from. No one is looking for an argument on a topic that doesn't even belong on this board in the first place.

Let's get back on topic.

Thanks.

tidester
Host
SUVs

ateixeira · February 2002

Probably a foot or more, we didn't exactly get out and check. The stuff was as dark as coca-cola. One car choked on the water and had the engine flood (literally), so it wasn't a cake walk.

Boy, I bet a Grand Cherokee is just about cheaper than a Liberty once you add all the options.

-juice

diploid · February 2002

I'd take the GC.

p0926 · February 2002

Diploid- If so, you better get two so you'll have one to drive while the other's in the shop! :-)

-Frank P.

ateixeira · February 2002

The GCs had early problems with the Dana axle (they swapped suppliers), and are still getting poor reliability scores. I hope the Liberty does better.

The Kia Sorento is on the way and may give Jeep a bit of a headache with their value pricing and that warranty.

-juice

p0926 · February 2002

The way I look at it, the Liberty can't do any worse. Besides, the Liberty is being produced in a brand new "state-of-the-art" factory which will hopefully help them fix some of their QC issues.

-Frank P.

carseeker4 · February 2002

I've test driven 2 different Outback 4's and while they perform nicely, I have noticed a bit of a rough idle in both. Is that typical?

Also, the Forester looks bigger, but the OB seems to have a bit more leg room - my imagination?
-Ted

guyf · February 2002

Even a state of the art factory will put out poor vehicles if the engineering or the components are not up to snuff...

big_guy · February 2002

The Outback is physically larger than the Forester all though the expansive glass in the Forester makes it seem like the larger vehicle. The Outback is based on the Legacy platform (the biggest that Subaru currently makes) and the Forester is based on the Impreza platform (same as the Outback Sport, and WRX). And yes, there is about 1" more leg room in the Outback rear seats than in the Forester.

mad0865 · February 2002

And why would you take the GC? Have you ever driven one? They drive like tanks, but not as reliable.

diploid · February 2002

Sheesh...do you guys hate the GC that much? I think it's a great looking vehicle.

bjfrank42 · February 2002

I agree. It is a nice looking vehicle. Still don't think you can get one for the same price as a Liberty. I bought the Liberty cause I didn't want to go the extra money.

ateixeira · February 2002

Ted: boxer engine tend to have a characteristic growl. I can "hear" a Subie coming. Same with Porsche, especially air cooled. I like that - it's part of their character.

Forester is taller, but Outback is longer and has a longer wheelbase, with more passenger room. You are not imagining things. :-)

-juice

carseeker4 · February 2002

Thanks, juice. I love the handling of the OB, but I just wish it had a tad more ground clearance and was a bit larger. I am 6 ft tall (average by US standards) and also noticed the OB has a restricted front window view with the seat in the high position. With the seat lowered, the leg room seems a bit short. I am looking more closely at the Saturn VUE. Doesn't handle as well as the OB, but has a smoother (not necessarily quieter!) V6 and that tad more ground clearance. I know its AWD system is NOT as good as Subaru's but I have to make compromises to get a car that satisfies me in the best way possible.

ateixeira · February 2002

If you like Subaru's AWD, Toyota and Hyundai use a similar VC system that are both full-time.

Honda, Ford, and Saturn employ part-time systems for slippery surfaces only. Jeep too, but it's a locker.

-juice

carseeker4 · February 2002

Thanks for the response, juice. I tested the Highlander and its really a bit pricey...nice though. Makes me sometimes wish I was an ex-Enron exec who had cashed in options before the collapse....but I guess I'm just as happy settling for the Outback or VUE and having integrity and a clean conscience! When test-driving the CRV on a rainy day I did get to feel the realtime AWD kick in. It feels like the car got a "kick in the butt" or a tap from someone in the rear when it kicks in, but it does work. As far as the restricted front winshield view in the OB..... I have to watch for those falling meteorites!! ;-) Thanks again.
- Ted

ateixeira · February 2002

I saw a CPO (used, really) Highlander at Fitzgerald Subaru/Toyota, and it was $29 grand, and without leather!

I hope those Enron execs get sued in civil cases and lose their huge bank accounts.

-juice

scape2 · February 2002

I have to differ with your comment of the CRV, Escape, RAV4 and even the VUE 4WD system only good for "slippery surfaces only" comment. I have taken my Escape onto logging roads with some pretty nice sized ruts along with up skiing on some very icey and snow laden roads. The car based platforms are not as incapable as some may think. Granted, you don't want to take one on a class 4 trail, or up lions back or through the rubicon. Lets look at reality here, over 90 percent of 4x4's never even see a gravel road! Honda/Ford/Toyota/Saturn went with what the masses want in an SUV. Most people want ride, comfort, handling of a car, yet the ability to traverse snowy roads, or logging roads when needed. Face it, The majority of us use these vehicles as commuter vehicles. The hoopla about
"offroad ability" is a joke. The car based SUV's will handle most conditions that most people will throw at them.
The Liberty does not have a locker by the way....

p0926 · February 2002

Scape2- I fail to see how Juice's "slippery surfaces only" comment about some manufacturer's 4WD systems relates to "off road ability". He was merely pointing out that those systems are normally FWD until slippage is detected while a true AWD system already has power gong to all four wheels. And truth be known, a good driver in a FWD car could probably have traversed your logging/snow-covered roads. The advantage of 4WD in those situations is that it gives an additional measure of confidence but AWD gives just gives a little more.

-Frank P.

ateixeira · February 2002

I may not have been clear. I meant the 4WD system itself is only supposed to be engaged on slippery surfaces, to prevent binding of the tires.

This is why the Vue, CR-V, and Escape and not engaged full-time. They do engage automatically, though. But none has a center differential, so they engage only when needed.

The RAV4, Forester, and Santa Fe are always engaged. They all have a center differential that prevents the binding by allowing the front and rear axle to rotate at slightly different speeds, and allows them to be engaged all the time, even on dry pavement.

I wasn't talking about off-roading at all.

-juice

diploid · February 2002

That we're certainly not talking about off-roading when discussing this class of vehicles.

scape2 · February 2002

I agree, that when talking about any SUV, offroading topic is useless. Granted, there may be some who take a 35K+ vehicle real offroading, but not many. Who is going to take an Acura MDX on the rubicon?? Better yet an Escalade...
Facts are clear though. Most 4x4 vehicles are purely for looks and an image...

carseeker4 · February 2002

Well, I am still in a quandry. I have tried just about every crossover SUV out there and still cannot decide what to get here. I have the Outback, my original first choice, but its a tad small, has no affordable 6 cyl and I'd like more ground clearance in that class vehicle. Then there's the VUE which has a chintzy interior and ... and.... design (can't think of a word...use your imagination). Then I sat in the Santa Fe.... DEFINITELY designed for a woman, or a man under 5'8".... nowhere CLOSE to enough driver's seat leg room, and its having some quality issues. Honda has the CRV. Bland as usual, still no V6 and now it makes a lot of funny noises! The Highlander, RX300 and MDX are all WAY OUTTA HERE pricewise. The RAV4 is too small and tinny. The PERFECT vehicle is still the Tribute/Escape... and it has quality issues! What is someone to do who is looking at this crossover-mini-SUV class of vehicles? Wait?

diploid · February 2002

It always made me laugh to read a review about a Lincoln Navigator, where the writer says something like "and it actually has off-roading capabilities!" Yeah, and people who buy them actually take them off-road.

mad0865 · February 2002

re:I agree, that when talking about any SUV, offroading topic is useless.

Huh?

I've taken my Liberty off roading several times, and its price is well below 35k.

Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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