Go with the Escape if the V6 and passenger space are a priority.
The Forester has proven reliability from the get-go, and sit at the top of CR's charts currently. I get 25mpg, too. You get lots of content if you get the upper models, and even the base models have ABS and lots of goodies, so they're a good value.
I require a 5 speed, so the column shifter would knock the Escape off my list right away. Subaru also uses full-time AWD rather than FWD with part-time reactive 4WD. With no center diffy the Escape cannot remain engaged unless surfaces are slippery to scrub off differences in axle speed.
Yes, the Liberty comes with a v6 5speed. It was just released early in the year. I'm also a member on a Jeep specific site where they were discussing it in great detail, they said that it was awesome. Good luck in your decision. You can go to Jeep.com and custom build one to get a better idea on pricing.
juice, You can switch to full 4X4 mode in the Escape. When you do, the system locks the front and rear axles together thus sending 50% power to both ends. It still does lack a low range transfer case, but it should satisfy the needs of most people.
This rough and tough image, "off road ability" garbage is a full blown joke!@ Stats have shown that over 90 percent of 4x4 vehicles never even touch even a gravel road! I believe those manufacturers that have gone with a car frame are headed in the right direction. Most people want a comfortable ride and responsive handling that a car gives. Any of the car based SUV's will do just fine on gravel roads/access roads/logging roads. I laugh at the commercial with Jeep. The one where the family is out in the middle of nowhere and the flares go off and they go out to rescue those other little SUV's that are stuck. Granted, there are always going to be those 9% or less that want to traverse class 4 trails, I'm not one of them.. My Escape gets me to my favorite fishing spots just fine thank-you..
AWD - it's well known that full-time AWD reduces MPG. The reason why Subaru has less mileage compared to other vehciles in the class. Partime-AWD (i.e. AWD when needed) would satisfy most of the safety concerns as well as take care of the mileage. As regards reliability, Toyota/Honda has better reliability than a Subaru. What a vehicle owner would look for is the right combination of safety/reliability/looks/ price/dealer experience/service/power/options.
Kia Sportage is a piece of junk and Vitara/Trackers are pretty crude and cramped. Don't think most people want those for daily driving. not do they need the "off road" ability.
Thanks for the info - I haven't been following the Liberty recently, so didn't know they had come out with the 5 sp V6. That's definitely worth another look. I wonder if it will get better gas mileage than the auto V6.
My other half test drove much of the subaru line yesterday (Outback, Forester, and WRX). He prefers the Outback over the Forester now.
It looks like it is getting down to the Liberty and one of the Subarus now (with the idea of a second Wrangler lurking in the background).
My father works for GM and told me that if I was going to buy one of those death trap pieces of crap, he wouldn't give me his employee number to get a discount.
I did test drive the 4 door tracker though - it was a good experience as it definately confirmed that I wanted a VUE. The tracker felt too boxy and cramped and the shifting on the 5 speed was just brutal!
juice, I'm not making this up. Transmission binding is quite noticeable if you use the 4X4 setting on dry pavement.
From Edmunds: "As opposed to Ford's larger SUVs, the 2WD Escape is front-wheel drive. The 4WD system can be set to either "4x4 automatic" or "4x4 lock" mode. In automatic mode, power is applied to the rear wheels only when a loss of traction occurs. In the locked mode, the Escape applies power to all four wheels at all times. The Escape does not have a low-range transfer case, however."
From Ford: "That means you get enhanced performance for off-road and severe driving conditions. Control Trac® II also gives you the ability to lock the front and rear axles together, giving driver the traction and handling benefits of full-time four-wheel drive."
From the Escape owner's manual: "The 4x4 ON mode provides four-wheel drive with full power to both axles at all times. It is only intended for severe or off-road driving conditions, such as deep snow and ice (where no dry or wet pavement remains uncovered) and shallow sand or mud."
From carpoint: "Escapes come as front-wheel-drive vehicles only or with Ford's Control Trac II 4-wheel-drive system.
This system has two settings. The automatic setting allows the vehicle to travel most of the time in front-wheel drive for best fuel economy. Only when wheel slippage is detected does the Escape automatically shift power—as much as 100 percent—from the front wheels to the rear to improve traction. All this is done without any action of the driver.
The other setting, which the driver must activate, delivers power to the front and rear wheels all the time. This lockup feature can be turned on even when the Escape is moving. "
I'm not saying that it can be used for severe off-road duty, but you do have the option to switch to full 4X4 mode if you need to.
baggs32: while you can lock the Escape into 4wd, you can only do so on slippery surfaces, so it's not intended for full time use. If you engage it on a dry surface, and do a U-turn, I wouldn't want to be around for the binding that could damage the driveline or at least the tires. Without a center differential it simply can't be used full time.
np1908: really? The Forester leads the class in MPG, if you look at AWD/4WD models. Your theory doesn't hold up. CR-V gets 21/25, Forester gets 21/27, both 5 speeds. What part-time AWD model does better? RAV4 and SF use a similar VC that can work full time like the Forester, but Escape 4 cyl 5 speeds get 22/25, still less than the Forester's average and with a dinky 130hp engine! Saturn's gets 21/26 with the CVT, which once again does not match the Subaru with auto at 22/27. Your theory is just plain wrong.
And CR rated Subaru and Toyota tied for first in reliability, with Honda and Nissan tied for 3rd. What is your source?
Just wanted to throw more variables into the mix. I test drove the Outback (auto), Imprezza (manual) and Forester (manual) on a long hill here in Penna. I had the ac on full and floored the accelerator to see what response I'd get. I got response in the Impressa and Forester but nothing in the Outback. The salesman said it was probably because the Outback was heavier.
Thoreau said (paraphrasing)if you are considering a big purchase you should like the item more every time you see (test drive) it. It works for me.
Vehicle purchase has never been about FACTS. It has mostly been about perception. Toyota/Honda is "perceived" to be of better quality than a Subaru. Reason why, they far outsell Subarus. Here are some facts: To-be-released JDPower rating says Saturn-L has better initial Quality than a Toyota/Honda. Coupled with the already-released JDPower rating saying Saturn dealer service as #1, do you expect Saturn-L to outsell Camcords? No. Why? 'cause of "perceived" Quality/reliability of Toyota/Honda. Think this way. Subaru is not among top 5 of the same JDPower customer service rating. Still Subaru has a reasonably good year in Sales, this year. OK, Lets talk about Consume Reports. CR says Olds Intrigue as the best Family sedan from GM. Do you think so? I, for one not. (Never mind that Intrigue is one of the good cars produced by GM). I still maintain my point that full-time AWD is not required for normal driving. AWD, if available when required, would do. AWD models, generally, result in lesser MPG.
Well, I just had to tell this board about my dealership experience today.
Went to negotiate a deal for a 2002 Santa Fe LX AWD. The car has obviously been used by someone at the dealership as it has 900 miles on it. It also has several scratches/abrasions on the gate.
Anyway, I went in with the proper numbers of invoice vs. MSRP. To the MSRP the dealer had added CCP, dealer app and running boards for sticker of 26,108. I took off all of these items (vehicle was built 1/25/02), as well as $1000 for mileage and $600 for dealer incentive. Long story short, I offered $22,500 ($70 above invoice).
I also had a trade (2000 Honda Accord EX in MINT condition, 35,000 miles). Another long story short, the sales manager offered me $11,000 for it. Is this guy smoking dope?! That is no where near any number I have seen. The lowest I have seen for its trade in value is $14,100. He even tried the "we'll pay off your vehicle no matter how much you owe" BS. You know, pay my note off (14k), then give me 13.3k for my car so I could have the honor of financing over 27k!!
The thing that is the most upsetting is not that I fell in love with the car. It is the fact that the salesman understood exactly why I offered what I did as we spent 2 hrs talking about it. I go back this afternoon and the manager ignores what was done this morning and pulls out BS numbers. I think he likes his cars WAY too much. They are also probably not used to someone having a finance degree and having every number under the sun to back my offer up.
Anyway...anyone have any suggestions on where to go from here? I have thought about faxing my info to the salesman and GM and bypassing the manager. I have no intention of calling the dealership again. Or maybe send out an offer to buy over the Internet...only problem is I have a trade.
Find another dealer. I spent several hours talking to a Toyota dealer about a Highlander, and I finally walked out - they were offering me a horrible deal and trying to get me to like it. I have definitely bought my last Toyota! On the other hand, re-reading your post, the dealer is in a bad position. The car is probably only worth $70 over invoice, but he has more than that invested in it (it's been on the lot for a long time - interest on his note for it), so he wants to make that up and make a profit besides (gotta pay the salesman and the overhead). So he tries to make it up on offering you less for your trade in. I'm not trying to take his side at all - just trying to see where he might be coming from. That's why I think you should find another dealer. The one you were dealing with seems to think they can sell that SF for the money he wants, otherwise, he would have negotiated more (or else they thought you would buy the car no matter what).
Interesting experience with the Forester and Outback. Some of that could have been the difference between the manual and the auto, but not all of it. My hubby thought it was the opposite - he thought the OB had more power, but he may have been driving the H6. I sat in an OB at the LA Auto Show last year, and felt I would have a problem with seeing over the front of the vehicle (being a little person makes buying anything car-like harder, especially after spending so many years driving some sort of pickup). That's why I've been favoring the Forester.
A bit off topic, but since the Tracker topic up - a friend of mine has a Tracker and lived in the mountains not that far from me. When she couldn't get up to her house for the 3rd day in a row due to snow and ice on the roads, she put her house on the market. I, on the other hand, have never had a problem getting home with the Wrangler...
"Coupled with the already-released JDPower rating saying Saturn dealer service as #1, do you expect Saturn-L to outsell Camcords? No. Why? 'cause of 'perceived' Quality/reliability of Toyota/Honda."
Um...the dealer service has no correlation with the car's quality/reliability.
Initial quality has little or nothign to do with long term quality. In fact, a read an article w/in the last few months that indicated that many initial quality "problems" arise from the owner failing to crack open the owners' manual: if they don't know how to work it properly, they think it's broken.
Saturn's long term quality is not up to Honda/Toyota standards. However, much of Saturn's appeal is the "Saturn experience" -- the buyer knows the car is not as good as other manufacturers' cars, but dealing with Saturn is easier and les stressful, so Saturn wins.
AWD -- yes, it is not required for ordinary driving. But it is a great asset in ordinary driving. I drive in the mountains under all sorts of conditions, and AWD is fun on the sunny dry days and very reassuring on the cold, white days. I've also driven the same roads with RWD and FWD and I'm still alive. But I also rolled a pickup and I've wiggle-waggled up and down nasty roads in a Honda Accord. Give me AWD. The pickup I rolled - it had the usual 4wd set-up -- and if I could have seen the ice in time, I'd've had the truck in 4wd, but I couldn't, so I didn't, and zoooop! off the road we went. 4wd is tricky because you have a choice sometimes, potentially tear up the drive-train being in 4wd on a dry road anticipating the ice that might be there just ahead or go skating. AWD is for driving on roads; 4wd is for off-road to get out of trouble or keep out of trouble you can see.
rblfn -- an aside: used cars have been hard to get rid of lately -- all those incentives on new cars have pumped up new car sales and used cars have accumulated on the lots. I'd suggest you give the dealer a "drop-dead" offer: "here it is, take it or leave it, it's good for one week" (he sweats a little that way, when he can't sell that vehicle for more during the week) -- then move on.
I agree that Camcords have had good reliability with their past models. For a relatively new model - e.g. Saturn-L is 2-year old model - wherein you cannot measure the long-term Quality/reliability - How do you measure the Quality? One measure is: Initial Quality. Unfortunately, Saturn has had only one Model prior to L and Saturn-S is recommended here in Edmunds as a reliable, re-sale purchase model. Also, Saturn-L is based on Opel Vectra - & Opel is well respected German carmaker. Inspite of having only one model between '90-'00 - Saturn has had 50% repeat customers. These convinced to consider Saturn-L over Camcords. Inact, I myself graduated form an Accord. (Also, I saw a saving of 6.5K over comparably equipped Camcords - details: my posts in "Incosiderate Salesguys" board).
Goldencouple1: I would say, Saturn experience PLUS the above facts made me give a hard look at Saturn-L. (BTW, do you know that '02 Camry did not receive a good safety rating). Thanks to your post, I got to learn about a bit abt AWD/4WD. What I was trying to mention is, some vehciles (e.g. VUE) come with AWD, but AWD is engaged only when required (automatically by sensing), otherwise drive as a FWD. No need for manual engaging. This way you can save a bit on mpg;
Diploid: True. U can't equate customer service with Car quality. But, wouldn't you also consider it a part of decision-making process for buying a car? ("coupled")
But then again, I'm one of those customers whom the dealers would absolutely hate to deal with. So I doubt it would factor into my buying a car.
Also, I know that the customer has leverage over the salesman. Would it be nice if the buying experience was better? Definitely. Would it really affect my purchase? Nope. If I want the car, and the dealer is a jerk about it, I move on.
When my wife and I were cross-shopping the Honda CR-V against the Subaru Forester, I assumed the same thing you are saying with AWD in regard to gas mileage; I thought that the Honda, with part-time AWD (basically, FWD until you start to slip) would have better gas mileage than the Forester. Since we preferred the Forester, I was pleasantly surprised to see that it's mileage was actually slightly better than the CR-V. As juice stated several posts back, the Forester gets 22/27 mpg, CR-V gets 21/25, and the VUE gets 21/26. In reality, our Forester actually gets more like 24/28 mpg. So how are you 'saving a bit on mpg' with an AWD system that is reactive? The reactive AWD systems get worse mileage, don't they??
Diploid: Appreciate your confidence in yourself ("one of those customers whom the dealers would absolutely hate to deal"). I was mentioning about Dealer after-sales service (for which Saturn displaced Lexus from #1 this year and the first non-luxury brand to achieve this in 16 years!) which is not the same as sales-experience. Would you go back to the dealer who has given you a raw deal in after-sales service?
speterson1: Good luck with your Forester. My point is, had the AWD system been like CR-V/VUE - probably, you would have got better MPG than what you are getting now. And CR-V/VUE, if they had a system like Forester, they would be getting lesser MPG than what they offer now.
Yeah what np1908 said. Generally a PT AWD system in the same vehicle will produce better MPG than a full-time AWD system. As an example I get 1mpg better milage running my Trooper in RWD mode rather than the AWD mode.
And generally fulltime AWD may not be needed, for most driving conditions. I have to disagree on this. AWD is useful in wet, dry, snowy, changes the dynamics of the handling even in dry.
JD Powers study measures a measly 90 days worth of data. I'm more interested in long-term reliability (especially past warranty), where Subaru does quite well.
Haven't driven an Intrigue, so I won't comment. The OSV edition seemed pretty cool, though it never made production.
AWD may not be needed for normal driving, but is wanted. To eliminate understeer and give it more neutral handling, plus to eliminate torque steer. And that's when the road is dry.
AWD vs. FWD will cost you a little less mileage, but that's apples to oranges. If I didn't get AWD, I would have gotten 4WD, and the AWD was the more fuel efficient choice in that case.
Subaru is good in reliability. No second thoughts here. I was mentioning abt - How do you measure reliability for a 2-yr model like Saturn-L (see my earlier posts). As regards CR & Intrigue, I was trying to give an example and drive a point that - you cannot totally go by the CR reports nor can you descredit it. They are what they are. An opinion. I would rather believe broad-based survey ratings by JDPower ("real world customers")/Repeat customer business ratings("satisfied customers");
It's hard, reliability for a new model can only be forecast, i.e. an educated guess. However, when you see the breakdown of problems, the raw data they provide, it's far more useful.
I get angered when people just assume a Honda, for instance, will be reliable, such as reviewers are doing with the Pilot. 1st year Odys had bad trannys, I know because we were considering one and I followed the Ody Problems thread for a year. $2-6 grand in repairs was common. Everyone recommended the extended warranty, because they were great vans, just costly to repair.
Honda still hasn't really sorted out the tranny and the power doors either, yet everyone calls them reliable, even though CR rates them about average.
Honda/Toyota hv built good reputation with their lines of Camcords/Civics. So, people "perceive" any Honda/Toyota to be of good Quality. They have also, mostly, lived up to the expectation. I would say that the Gap between Honda/toyota vis-a-vis Subaru or even some domestics have reduced very much. If you do enough research one can find equally creditable/better alternatives (price v/s performance) to a Honda/Toyota in most classes of vehciles where they compete. It is a question of *willing* to look for alternatives beyond a Honda/Toyota (I do not mean the Edmunds visitors -the very fact that they are visiting Edmunds means they want to make an educated decision/opinion)
I'm no expert when it comes to 4WD and AWD. I've had the back end of my Wrangler lose traction on a small patch of ice because the road was almost totally clear, and I was on top of the ice before I realized it was there and didn't have time to put in 4-Hi. I've also seen a number of stuck CRVs up here in the mountains, while I never see stuck Subarus. My friend with the Vue lives on a dirt road that isn't plowed, so I'll know next summer how it does. It really does come down to what you want to use the vehicle for.
We currently have an 00 Intrigue, best car we have ever had. Amazing performance and perfect reliability. Too bad GM killed it this year.
As for reliability, the best measure is to read many publications and come to your own conclusion. There are too many flaws in all of these data collection methods. Most cars/ trucks are pretty reliable these days so 1/2 the battle is finding a good dealer and good service department. You could have the best car and a bad service department could screw up everything.
I agree. I think the testing methods are just very biased.
But having 3 Hondas, all running well, has given me a good impression of Honda's reliability. Just bought a new Toyota...have to wait and see about it. So far, the fit and finish don't seem any better than the Hondas I've sat in, which is to say it's good.
I own a 2000 Accord and its been back to the dealer 3x! My Ford 0 times. If you get out on the net you will find plenty of peeved off HOnda/Toyota owners. Also, visit www.alldata.com and try to get a HOnda TSB, you can't. I Have a manager friend that works for Honda, asked him for a TSB list and he could not give it to me, Honda frowns on this. There is presently a huge recall on 99 - 01 Accords I believe. Its on the net, yet I have not heard one word of this in the news or from my Honda dealership? Why? I have worked for a Japanese company for over 8 years. Now don't get me wrong, its a great company and they treat thier employees great. However, I have run into instances of "hiding" data or problems. Japanese save face, its in thier culture and many Americans don't know about it.
Honda/ Toyota are definitely about as reliable as you can get, but you are right in that they tend to hide things (or keep them as quiet as possible) to avoid embarrassing the company. Perfect example of this is the Toyota engine sludge problem.
My neighbor just bought a Jeep Liberty yesterday and takes delivery later in the week. Looking forward to seeing how he does with it. He is very excited.
We have had our Vue for a few months now and it's been flawless. I think Saturn reliability is just fine and close enough to our Honda. Even if it's a little less reliable, Saturn service is so good that it's almost fun to bring it in anyway.
We has fairly bad service from the local Honda shop which is one of the reasons we chose Vue over CRV.
The Subaru Baja. That is one butt ugly vehicle (sorry Juice, I personally like the Forester and Outback). All that body cladding, looks like a mini Chevy Avalanche. Finally, Sante Fe owners have something to laugh at!
is every bit as reliable as a Honda. Don't let the "Honda is god" Or "Toyota is god" stigma get to you. Get out on the net, there are plenty of angry Honda/Toyota owners out here. The mountain top these two companies seem to be perched upon is crumbing, and I believe the free flowing of information on the internet is going to bring them down and show people that in coming years. Saturn/Ford/Nissan/Volvo/Chevy or whomever are all pretty much the same. I fell for the Honda is perfect bull.... and as I said mine has been in the shop 3x!
Raise it 3" and paint it silver so the cladding isn't so obvious and it's somewhat more palatable. Most of the pics I've seen in yellow make it look like the unholy union of an Avalanche and a lowered El Camino. Too bad, because the idea is a cool one. It would be really cool if they put plastic jump seats back there as a tribute to the Brat!
The cladding is my main objection for the Baja. Otherwise it looks like a very cool little vehicle. Not surprise Avalanche cladding cost $750. I'm sure that includes the cost of labor though.
I have no idea why anyone would want that as an option. I think it should be standard, and you would have to pay more for an Avalanche WITHOUT cladding!
Well, we know that underneath the cladding on the Baja is a pretty decent looking vehicle (Legacy wagon) - have you seen the pics of the naked Avalanche? Still pretty oooo-gly. The worst part is that GM is moving to Avalanche styling for all their FS trucks. IMO, not an improvement. I still think the Baja looks too low, though. Hey, Subaru brought back the hill-holder clutch for the Forester (shrewdly moving the post back on-topic), why not bring back that neat-o adjustible ride height suspension Subaru had on some of their '80s models? Put it on the Forester, while you're at it, and you might have something.
Comments
The Forester has proven reliability from the get-go, and sit at the top of CR's charts currently. I get 25mpg, too. You get lots of content if you get the upper models, and even the base models have ABS and lots of goodies, so they're a good value.
I require a 5 speed, so the column shifter would knock the Escape off my list right away. Subaru also uses full-time AWD rather than FWD with part-time reactive 4WD. With no center diffy the Escape cannot remain engaged unless surfaces are slippery to scrub off differences in axle speed.
Subaru has a 5/60 warranty, too.
-juice
-mad
You can switch to full 4X4 mode in the Escape. When you do, the system locks the front and rear axles together thus sending 50% power to both ends. It still does lack a low range transfer case, but it should satisfy the needs of most people.
Granted, there are always going to be those 9% or less that want to traverse class 4 trails, I'm not one of them.. My Escape gets me to my favorite fishing spots just fine thank-you..
As regards reliability, Toyota/Honda has better reliability than a Subaru.
What a vehicle owner would look for is the right combination of safety/reliability/looks/ price/dealer experience/service/power/options.
-mike
All of which are cheap. But if you don't plan to offroad, buying an "Image" vehicle is cool and cheap.
-mike
My other half test drove much of the subaru line yesterday (Outback, Forester, and WRX). He prefers the Outback over the Forester now.
It looks like it is getting down to the Liberty and one of the Subarus now (with the idea of a second Wrangler lurking in the background).
I did test drive the 4 door tracker though - it was a good experience as it definately confirmed that I wanted a VUE. The tracker felt too boxy and cramped and the shifting on the 5 speed was just brutal!
I'm not making this up. Transmission binding is quite noticeable if you use the 4X4 setting on dry pavement.
From Edmunds:
"As opposed to Ford's larger SUVs, the 2WD Escape is front-wheel drive. The 4WD system can be set to either "4x4 automatic" or "4x4 lock" mode. In automatic mode, power is applied to the rear wheels only when a loss of traction occurs. In the locked mode, the Escape applies power to all four wheels at all times. The Escape does not have a low-range transfer case, however."
From Ford:
"That means you get enhanced performance for off-road and severe driving conditions. Control Trac® II also gives you the ability to lock the front and rear axles together, giving driver the traction and handling benefits of full-time four-wheel drive."
From the Escape owner's manual:
"The 4x4 ON mode provides
four-wheel drive with full power
to both axles at all times. It is
only intended for severe or
off-road driving conditions, such
as deep snow and ice (where no
dry or wet pavement remains
uncovered) and shallow sand or
mud."
From carpoint:
"Escapes come as front-wheel-drive vehicles only or with Ford's Control Trac II 4-wheel-drive system.
This system has two settings. The automatic setting allows the vehicle to travel most of the time in front-wheel drive for best fuel economy. Only when wheel slippage is detected does the Escape automatically shift power—as much as 100 percent—from the front wheels to the rear to improve traction. All this is done without any action of the driver.
The other setting, which the driver must activate, delivers power to the front and rear wheels all the time. This lockup feature can be turned on even when the Escape is moving. "
I'm not saying that it can be used for severe off-road duty, but you do have the option to switch to full 4X4 mode if you need to.
np1908: really? The Forester leads the class in MPG, if you look at AWD/4WD models. Your theory doesn't hold up. CR-V gets 21/25, Forester gets 21/27, both 5 speeds. What part-time AWD model does better? RAV4 and SF use a similar VC that can work full time like the Forester, but Escape 4 cyl 5 speeds get 22/25, still less than the Forester's average and with a dinky 130hp engine! Saturn's gets 21/26 with the CVT, which once again does not match the Subaru with auto at 22/27. Your theory is just plain wrong.
And CR rated Subaru and Toyota tied for first in reliability, with Honda and Nissan tied for 3rd. What is your source?
-juice
Thoreau said (paraphrasing)if you are considering a big purchase you should like the item more every time you see (test drive) it. It works for me.
Here are some facts:
To-be-released JDPower rating says Saturn-L has better initial Quality than a Toyota/Honda. Coupled with the already-released JDPower rating saying Saturn dealer service as #1, do you expect Saturn-L to outsell Camcords? No. Why? 'cause of "perceived" Quality/reliability of Toyota/Honda.
Think this way. Subaru is not among top 5 of the same JDPower customer service rating. Still Subaru has a reasonably good year in Sales, this year.
OK, Lets talk about Consume Reports.
CR says Olds Intrigue as the best Family sedan from GM. Do you think so? I, for one not. (Never mind that Intrigue is one of the good cars produced by GM).
I still maintain my point that full-time AWD is not required for normal driving. AWD, if available when required, would do. AWD models, generally, result in lesser MPG.
Went to negotiate a deal for a 2002 Santa Fe LX AWD. The car has obviously been used by someone at the dealership as it has 900 miles on it. It also has several scratches/abrasions on the gate.
Anyway, I went in with the proper numbers of invoice vs. MSRP. To the MSRP the dealer had added CCP, dealer app and running boards for sticker of 26,108. I took off all of these items (vehicle was built 1/25/02), as well as $1000 for mileage and $600 for dealer incentive. Long story short, I offered $22,500 ($70 above invoice).
I also had a trade (2000 Honda Accord EX in MINT condition, 35,000 miles). Another long story short, the sales manager offered me $11,000 for it. Is this guy smoking dope?! That is no where near any number I have seen. The lowest I have seen for its trade in value is $14,100. He even tried the "we'll pay off your vehicle no matter how much you owe" BS. You know, pay my note off (14k), then give me 13.3k for my car so I could have the honor of financing over 27k!!
The thing that is the most upsetting is not that I fell in love with the car. It is the fact that the salesman understood exactly why I offered what I did as we spent 2 hrs talking about it. I go back this afternoon and the manager ignores what was done this morning and pulls out BS numbers. I think he likes his cars WAY too much. They are also probably not used to someone having a finance degree and having every number under the sun to back my offer up.
Anyway...anyone have any suggestions on where to go from here? I have thought about faxing my info to the salesman and GM and bypassing the manager. I have no intention of calling the dealership again. Or maybe send out an offer to buy over the Internet...only problem is I have a trade.
Thoughts?
Interesting experience with the Forester and Outback. Some of that could have been the difference between the manual and the auto, but not all of it. My hubby thought it was the opposite - he thought the OB had more power, but he may have been driving the H6. I sat in an OB at the LA Auto Show last year, and felt I would have a problem with seeing over the front of the vehicle (being a little person makes buying anything car-like harder, especially after spending so many years driving some sort of pickup). That's why I've been favoring the Forester.
A bit off topic, but since the Tracker topic up - a friend of mine has a Tracker and lived in the mountains not that far from me. When she couldn't get up to her house for the 3rd day in a row due to snow and ice on the roads, she put her house on the market. I, on the other hand, have never had a problem getting home with the Wrangler...
Um...the dealer service has no correlation with the car's quality/reliability.
Saturn's long term quality is not up to Honda/Toyota standards. However, much of Saturn's appeal is the "Saturn experience" -- the buyer knows the car is not as good as other manufacturers' cars, but dealing with Saturn is easier and les stressful, so Saturn wins.
AWD -- yes, it is not required for ordinary driving. But it is a great asset in ordinary driving. I drive in the mountains under all sorts of conditions, and AWD is fun on the sunny dry days and very reassuring on the cold, white days. I've also driven the same roads with RWD and FWD and I'm still alive. But I also rolled a pickup and I've wiggle-waggled up and down nasty roads in a Honda Accord. Give me AWD. The pickup I rolled - it had the usual 4wd set-up -- and if I could have seen the ice in time, I'd've had the truck in 4wd, but I couldn't, so I didn't, and zoooop! off the road we went. 4wd is tricky because you have a choice sometimes, potentially tear up the drive-train being in 4wd on a dry road anticipating the ice that might be there just ahead or go skating. AWD is for driving on roads; 4wd is for off-road to get out of trouble or keep out of trouble you can see.
rblfn -- an aside: used cars have been hard to get rid of lately -- all those incentives on new cars have pumped up new car sales and used cars have accumulated on the lots. I'd suggest you give the dealer a "drop-dead" offer: "here it is, take it or leave it, it's good for one week" (he sweats a little that way, when he can't sell that vehicle for more during the week) -- then move on.
Goldencouple1: I would say, Saturn experience PLUS the above facts made me give a hard look at Saturn-L. (BTW, do you know that '02 Camry did not receive a good safety rating).
Thanks to your post, I got to learn about a bit abt AWD/4WD. What I was trying to mention is, some vehciles (e.g. VUE) come with AWD, but AWD is engaged only when required (automatically by sensing), otherwise drive as a FWD. No need for manual engaging. This way you can save a bit on mpg;
Diploid: True. U can't equate customer service with Car quality. But, wouldn't you also consider it a part of decision-making process for buying a car? ("coupled")
Also, I know that the customer has leverage over the salesman. Would it be nice if the buying experience was better? Definitely. Would it really affect my purchase? Nope. If I want the car, and the dealer is a jerk about it, I move on.
speterson1: Good luck with your Forester. My point is, had the AWD system been like CR-V/VUE - probably, you would have got better MPG than what you are getting now. And CR-V/VUE, if they had a system like Forester, they would be getting lesser MPG than what they offer now.
-mike
-mike
Haven't driven an Intrigue, so I won't comment. The OSV edition seemed pretty cool, though it never made production.
AWD may not be needed for normal driving, but is wanted. To eliminate understeer and give it more neutral handling, plus to eliminate torque steer. And that's when the road is dry.
AWD vs. FWD will cost you a little less mileage, but that's apples to oranges. If I didn't get AWD, I would have gotten 4WD, and the AWD was the more fuel efficient choice in that case.
-juice
As regards CR & Intrigue, I was trying to give an example and drive a point that - you cannot totally go by the CR reports nor can you descredit it. They are what they are. An opinion. I would rather believe broad-based survey ratings by JDPower ("real world customers")/Repeat customer business ratings("satisfied customers");
I get angered when people just assume a Honda, for instance, will be reliable, such as reviewers are doing with the Pilot. 1st year Odys had bad trannys, I know because we were considering one and I followed the Ody Problems thread for a year. $2-6 grand in repairs was common. Everyone recommended the extended warranty, because they were great vans, just costly to repair.
Honda still hasn't really sorted out the tranny and the power doors either, yet everyone calls them reliable, even though CR rates them about average.
-juice
I would say that the Gap between Honda/toyota vis-a-vis Subaru or even some domestics have reduced very much. If you do enough research one can find equally creditable/better alternatives (price v/s performance) to a Honda/Toyota in most classes of vehciles where they compete. It is a question of *willing* to look for alternatives beyond a Honda/Toyota (I do not mean the Edmunds visitors -the very fact that they are visiting Edmunds means they want to make an educated decision/opinion)
As for reliability, the best measure is to read many publications and come to your own conclusion. There are too many flaws in all of these data collection methods. Most cars/ trucks are pretty reliable these days so 1/2 the battle is finding a good dealer and good service department. You could have the best car and a bad service department could screw up everything.
But having 3 Hondas, all running well, has given me a good impression of Honda's reliability. Just bought a new Toyota...have to wait and see about it. So far, the fit and finish don't seem any better than the Hondas I've sat in, which is to say it's good.
I have worked for a Japanese company for over 8 years. Now don't get me wrong, its a great company and they treat thier employees great. However, I have run into instances of "hiding" data or problems. Japanese save face, its in thier culture and many Americans don't know about it.
My neighbor just bought a Jeep Liberty yesterday and takes delivery later in the week. Looking forward to seeing how he does with it. He is very excited.
We has fairly bad service from the local Honda shop which is one of the reasons we chose Vue over CRV.
Toyota had their sludge saga, but survived it. That's how strong their perceived reliability is.
But yeah, the differences today are small, even from the best to the worst.
-juice
Based on what, your getting out there on the net and seeing crumbling mountain tops?
You have got to be kidding. But I know that you're not.
Show us some hard data. Or stop trying to pass off your wishful thinking as fact. Please.
-Jason
I wasn't happy that Subaru put so much on there, at least in the Silver monotone color it doesn't look bad.
-juice
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/70531/article.html
-juice
I still think the Baja looks too low, though. Hey, Subaru brought back the hill-holder clutch for the Forester (shrewdly moving the post back on-topic), why not bring back that neat-o adjustible ride height suspension Subaru had on some of their '80s models? Put it on the Forester, while you're at it, and you might have something.
-Jason