Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100 · October 2014

abacomike said:
FOLLOW-UP
This p;The salesman said he still had no info on the 2015 E400. I laughed out loud at him and told him my new E400 was at the port awaiting transportation to my regular dealer and that I had ordered it 2 months ago

Mike, your dealer has treated you very well over the years, I don't think you would switch dealers just because these jokers are closer. If you want another car down the road they may not honor their agreement, but, the other guys always come through for you. Which one do you go to for servicing.

I drove by my MB dealer yesterday. Quite a few 2015 C Classes around.......but no 2015 Es.
I am sure the salesman could check on my car, but, I think they don't want to start doing that.

driver100 · October 2014

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:
I may have a stalker.

I'm the last guy you want to try the hard sell with.

I wonder, do dealers have a generic high pressure marketing plan that they just plug in for all leads regardless of what need the customer requests? I know some of our sales people have commented on how frustrating internet leads are to them and the low percentage that convert to actual sales.
Just out of curiosity OF....have you taken a Mustang out for a spin? That might persuade you one way or the other if it is the car for you. Or, do you want the dream to continue.....and possibly keep you up at night. Sometimes the dream is better than the reality.

I met my friend for coffee today and I was surprised he was driving his Audi A4 R/S car and not his Maserati. He said the weather forecast called for rain, and he has no traction in rain in the Mas....it just hydroplanes.

Meanwhile, the A4 does it all, carries 4 people comfortably, has a lot of power, fun to drive, looks great.......if it was me, I would say the Maserati is more trouble than it is worth.

Not yet. So far the only unit in my area is the 4 cyl. Turbo but the real reason is that between school and the farm I've been pulling 70 hour weeks and the dealers are closed on Sunday, the only day I'm free.

I suppose I could "come on down" to NJ when things slow down in a couple of weeks.

You really have to go for a test drive. I know this would sound crazy to any normal person but I came from a Ford family. I liked the looks of the 84 Mustang and wanted one a lot....until I took it for a spin. I was underwhelmed, it felt weak, poorly built, poor seating position, cheap.

So I went for a test drive in a Camaro. A world of difference, it felt like a real car....and the Camaro wasn't a great car either....but, what a difference! I leased the Camaro.

You really have to take the Mustang out for a test drive to see if your dreams are for real or imagined.

driver100 · October 2014

roadburner said:
I don't want to keep ragging on your friend, driver- but I'm almost certain that the Maserati's problems in the wet are due to the driver and/or the tires.

You could have a point...this is the friend who is OCD so worries about things more than most. He did say the car is low to the ground and if it hits a big puddle it feels like it could be hydroplaning. I think it does make some sense, I know cars like that with low profile racing tires shouldn't be driven in snow or ice....so, a little rain, low temperatures....it sounds like it could be a problem.

driver100 · October 2014

roadburner said:
Coming soon- more news once the media embargo is lifted...
-

-

Another case of taking a beautifully designed car....and finding a way to make it look ugly!

abacomike · October 2014

@driver100 said:

"I am sure the salesman could check on my car, but, I think they don't want to start doing that."

I am sure your car is at the port of entry, driver. Yesterday, I found out that they are holding the 2015's at the port as they are still delivering 2014's. Once the 2014's have cleared the port, they will release the 2015's. My dealer does not know the date yet.

I assume the same will be the case in Canada. The port is a 7 hour drive straight down I-95 to my dealer. We shall see.

ab348 · October 2014

driver100 said:

I drove by my MB dealer yesterday. Quite a few 2015 C Classes around.......but no 2015 Es.
I am sure the salesman could check on my car, but, I think they don't want to start doing that.

I forgot to mention - weekend before last I took a drive past the local Autoport for you. They were offloading hundreds of Audis that day, could see virtually nothing else anywhere. But their facility is so huge that there could be a few hundred Benzes lurking somewhere and I would never see them.

One interesting thing I had never noticed before about the place. The main road divides their facility, with the docks and some holding lots on one side, and their buildings and more holding lots on the other side of the road. On this day they had the gates open and the drivers of the just-offloaded Audis were having to cross the road. They were not stopping traffic so these guys were all lined up at the gates looking for openings. Wonder if anyone ever got T-boned there. The cars are all wrapped in shipping covers and they just peel away a portion around the windshield so visibility has to be pretty poor.

qbrozen · October 2014

roadburner said:
I don't want to keep ragging on your friend, driver- but I'm almost certain that the Maserati's problems in the wet are due to the driver and/or the tires.

Hell, I'm more than almost certain. I'm positive its the tires, if the problem exists at all. People make no sense when they blame a car for poor traction. "Wait... so you are saying physics apply to that particular car differently than all other cars?"

qbrozen · October 2014

I heard from the Benz buyer. He was happy to report that 1 tie rod and 1 wiper blade later, the car passed PA inspection and he is quite pleased with the great deal he got.

oldfarmer50 · October 2014

roadburner said:
I don't want to keep ragging on your friend, driver- but I'm almost certain that the Maserati's problems in the wet are due to the driver and/or the tires.

Are you sure? I once saw a Maserati in a dealer's cash 4 clunkers lot.

graphicguy · October 2014

qbrozen said:
I heard from the Benz buyer. He was happy to report that 1 tie rod and 1 wiper blade later, the car passed PA inspection and he is quite pleased with the great deal he got.

Q...congratz on getting the old gal sold. Glad the new owner likes her, too.

Seperate topic, mentioned a little while ago that Lincoln sent me some sort of invite in the mail to take one of their vehicles overnight for a test drive, and they'll give me a $100 gift card for my troubles. It's supposed to be known as "date night with a Lincoln" Dealership called this a.m. asking me what Lincoln I'd like to drive. I'm not sure I even know which Lincoln is which. But, he's willing to bring it to me. Once I return it, they give me a $100 gift card.

We'll see how this goes.

oldfarmer50 · October 2014

"...You really have to take the Mustang out for a test drive to see if your dreams are for real or imagined..."

Oh undoubtedly. I have driven a Mustang, sort of. I rented a 2005 6 cyl when they first came out and, as you said, I was underwhelmed. I'm hoping the GT will be something else.

Might not be a bad idea to test a Camaro just for comparison.

qbrozen · October 2014

cool. i'd take them up on that. Although I also have ZERO idea what Lincoln's are these days.

Now looking at their website... guess I'd have to go with an MKC or MKZ hybrid.

Michaell · October 2014

oldfarmer50 said:
"...You really have to take the Mustang out for a test drive to see if your dreams are for real or imagined..."

Oh undoubtedly. I have driven a Mustang, sort of. I rented a 2005 6 cyl when they first came out and, as you said, I was underwhelmed. I'm hoping the GT will be something else.

Might not be a bad idea to test a Camaro just for comparison.

OF, I've test driven both the Mustang GT and the Camaro SS - I much prefer the Mustang due to the better visibility.

bwia · October 2014

For the Ford guys among us, here is Motor Trend's review of the 2015 Ford F-150. Nice vehicle but for me too much black in the snout. Enjoy!

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/trucks/1409_2015_ford_f_150_first_drive/?eml=964051&sp_rid=4297980

jayrider · October 2014

nyccarguy said:
@tyguy‌

No lever on the inside of the trunk. I'm used to having a small handle on the inside of the trunk to close it. Now I've got to put my hands on the car's dirty trunk to close it.

Check under the trunk lid -- there may be recessed handles that allow you to pull the door down without touching the outside.

bwia · October 2014

Edit
Oh, my mistake the snout is not all black as this photo shows.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/trucks/1409_2015_ford_f_150_first_drive/photo_39.html

fezo · October 2014

gg - come on up with the Lincoln. You'll see how it is under a variety of terrains and hit some very pleasant scenery. You'll also shock the dealer when he looks at the od....

Funny on rail and tired. Those new Michelin Premiers on the Mazda take rain entirely in stride. Feel like driving on dry pavement.

driver100 · October 2014

abacomike said:
@driver100 said:
"I am sure the salesman could check on my car, but, I think they don't want to start doing that."
I am sure your car is at the port of entry, driver. Yesterday, I found out that they are holding the 2015's at the port as they are still delivering 2014's. Once the 2014's have cleared the port, they will release the 2015's. My dealer does not know the date yet.
I assume the same will be the case in Canada. The port is a 7 hour drive straight down I-95 to my dealer. We shall see.

My dealer sent me a video of the big gala event to launch the new C and GLKs. I should have gone, the appetizers looked good. They even had an MC from ET! I am sure the GLK is much improved, but I think they uglied that one up too.

Compared to 2014:

IMO - (which doesn't count for much) the 2015 looks like all the other rounded bubble cars on the road, the 2014 had a more classic look.

Michaell · October 2014

driver100 said:

abacomike said:
@driver100 said:
"I am sure the salesman could check on my car, but, I think they don't want to start doing that."
I am sure your car is at the port of entry, driver. Yesterday, I found out that they are holding the 2015's at the port as they are still delivering 2014's. Once the 2014's have cleared the port, they will release the 2015's. My dealer does not know the date yet.
I assume the same will be the case in Canada. The port is a 7 hour drive straight down I-95 to my dealer. We shall see.
My dealer sent me a video of the big gala event to launch the new C and GLKs. I should have gone, the appetizers looked good. They even had an MC from ET! I am sure the GLK is much improved, but I think they uglied that one up too.

Compared to 2014:

IMO - (which doesn't count for much) the 2015 looks like all the other rounded bubble cars on the road, the 2014 had a more classic look.

Whoa - hold on. The red car is the new GLA - slots below the GLK in size and price.

driver100 · October 2014

oldfarmer50 said:
"...You really have to take the Mustang out for a test drive to see if your dreams are for real or imagined..."

Oh undoubtedly. I have driven a Mustang, sort of. I rented a 2005 6 cyl when they first came out and, as you said, I was underwhelmed. I'm hoping the GT will be something else.

Might not be a bad idea to test a Camaro just for comparison.

My friend with the Maserati goes to California quite a bit. He said the Camaro is for younger guys....it is just a jazzy take off on the old name....if you want a retro car it has to be a Mustang or a Challenger.

Just me, but I think the Camaro just looks like all the other bubble designed cars out there...not much retro look going on.

driver100 · October 2014

bwia said:
Edit
Oh, my mistake the snout is not all black as this photo shows.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/trucks/1409_2015_ford_f_150_first_drive/photo_39.html

I prefer the black to chrome myself.

I didn't realize the F-150 had suicide doors...........cool!

driver100 · October 2014

bwia said:
Edit
Oh, my mistake the snout is not all black as this photo shows.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/trucks/1409_2015_ford_f_150_first_drive/photo_39.html

I prefer the black to chrome myself.

I didn't realize the F-150 had suicide doors...........cool!

henryn · October 2014

I don't like suicide doors. They make it very hard to load things into the back seat when you are in a normal tight parking spot. Ford is the last manufacturer to have suicide doors on their super-cab/extended cab models. Chevrolet finally eliminated them for the 2014 model year, Dodge and Toyota eliminated them many years back.

stickguy · October 2014

Hey I like that truck. Odd.

And the gla looks like a very expensive Mazda 3 hatch

driver100 · October 2014

Michaell said:

driver100 said:

abacomike said:
@driver100 said:
"I am sure the salesman could check on my car, but, I think they don't want to start doing that."
I am sure your car is at the port of entry, driver. Yesterday, I found out that they are holding the 2015's at the port as they are still delivering 2014's. Once the 2014's have cleared the port, they will release the 2015's. My dealer does not know the date yet.
I assume the same will be the case in Canada. The port is a 7 hour drive straight down I-95 to my dealer. We shall see.
My dealer sent me a video of the big gala event to launch the new C and GLKs. I should have gone, the appetizers looked good. They even had an MC from ET! I am sure the GLK is much improved, but I think they uglied that one up too.

Compared to 2014:

IMO - (which doesn't count for much) the 2015 looks like all the other rounded bubble cars on the road, the 2014 had a more classic look.

Whoa - hold on. The red car is the new GLA - slots below the GLK in size and price.

Thanks for catching that Michaell. I was disillusioned, but now I see the GKL looks about the same for 2015.

I am glad they didn't ugly it up. I guess I am entitled to make one mistake this year, esp being over 60, (by a few years)

That's another reason car companies shouldn't use these meaningless letters for model names

driver100 · October 2014

henryn said:
I don't like suicide doors. They make it very hard to load things into the back seat when you are in a normal tight parking spot. Ford is the last manufacturer to have suicide doors on their super-cab/extended cab models. Chevrolet finally eliminated them for the 2014 model year, Dodge and Toyota eliminated them many years back.

Interesting comment. I thought suicide doors were a good thing in that it makes for a larger entrance way. I thought the downside was a lack of strength - not having a post - and also the chance the door could blow open if not closed all the way.

I guess it would take up more room if parked next to another car as it would have to swing the full size of the door to open. Wonder what Ford's reasoning was?

driver100 · October 2014

stickguy said:
Hey I like that truck. Odd.

And the gla looks like a very expensive Mazda 3 hatch

Good observation, it does resemble a Mazda.

snakeweasel · October 2014

driver100 said:

I don't like suicide doors. They make it very hard to load things into the back seat when you are in a normal tight parking spot. Ford is the last manufacturer to have suicide doors on their super-cab/extended cab models. Chevrolet finally eliminated them for the 2014 model year, Dodge and Toyota eliminated them many years back.
Interesting comment. I thought suicide doors were a good thing in that it makes for a larger entrance way. I thought the downside was a lack of strength - not having a post - and also the chance the door could blow open if not closed all the way. I guess it would take up more room if parked next to another car as it would have to swing the full size of the door to open. Wonder what Ford's reasoning was?

Maybe Ford wants it to be a truck driven by people who want a work truck. You know by people who are more likely to be parking it at a construction zone or out on the field and not at wally world.

stickguy · October 2014

Ok, since it looks like the Volvo is hanging around for the duration, finally stopped at repair place to tell them to order parts. Getting front and rear suspension units from tire rack. Hopefully replacing blown stuts with 107k on them with new bilsteins will keep utility from driving like an ox cart.

Will also have them out new rear pads on if needed, and change trans and brake fluid. And inspect rest of suspension rubber parts.

With all that, should be safe to send with daughter to NC.

And man, this place was stuffed with nice cars. Specializes in high end Audi customization. Even fabricates stuff on site. Cars get shipped in from all over. So pretty sure they can handle this stuff on my putt putt Volvo. Plus, they maintain the town police cars.

Even better, with tire rack drop ship (they are an official location) way cheaper than getting basic stuff put on at the tire store. Better equipment, better shop, local guy (I get a rebate on my property taxes to). And cheaper. What's not to love?

henryn · October 2014

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

henryn said:
I don't like suicide doors. They make it very hard to load things into the back seat when you are in a normal tight parking spot. Ford is the last manufacturer to have suicide doors on their super-cab/extended cab models. Chevrolet finally eliminated them for the 2014 model year, Dodge and Toyota eliminated them many years back.
Interesting comment. I thought suicide doors were a good thing in that it makes for a larger entrance way. I thought the downside was a lack of strength - not having a post - and also the chance the door could blow open if not closed all the way.

I guess it would take up more room if parked next to another car as it would have to swing the full size of the door to open. Wonder what Ford's reasoning was?

Maybe Ford wants it to be a truck driven by people who want a work truck. You know by people who are more likely to be parking it at a construction zone or out on the field and not at wally world.

Maybe, but probably not. In the beginning, all supercab / extended cab pickup trucks had NO rear doors. Then Ford and Chevy added one rear door, and then later on a second rear door. In all cases, these were hinged on the rear, aka "suicide doors". These do require a lot of room to open, because you have to open the front door fairly wide in order to make room for the rear door to clear the front door. Also, any passenger in the rear had to wait for someone to open the front door before he could open his rear door to exit the vehicle.

One of the big differences in "crew cab" pickups (apart from a few inches more space) were true rear doors, doors that were front hinged and could be opened independently of the front doors.

I believe Dodge was the first to offer true rear doors on their extended cab pickups. Toyota was right behind. Chevrolet and Ford lagged behind on this, Chevrolet finally did it for the 2014 model year and I was really expecting Ford to do it for the 2015 model year.

This may be a moot point before long, as extended cab pickups may be going the way of the dodo bird:

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/consumer/163_1310_editors_desk_endangered_species_extended_cab_trucks/

driver100 · October 2014

henryn said:

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

henryn said:
I don't like suicide doors. They make it very hard to load things into the back seat when you are in a normal tight parking spot. Ford is the last manufacturer to have suicide doors on their super-cab/extended cab models. Chevrolet finally eliminated them for the 2014 model year, Dodge and Toyota eliminated them many years back.
Interesting comment. I thought suicide doors were a good thing in that it makes for a larger entrance way. I thought the downside was a lack of strength - not having a post - and also the chance the door could blow open if not closed all the way.

I guess it would take up more room if parked next to another car as it would have to swing the full size of the door to open. Wonder what Ford's reasoning was?

Maybe Ford wants it to be a truck driven by people who want a work truck. You know by people who are more likely to be parking it at a construction zone or out on the field and not at wally world.

Maybe, but probably not. In the beginning, all supercab / extended cab pickup trucks had NO rear doors. Then Ford and Chevy added one rear door, and then later on a second rear door. In all cases, these were hinged on the rear, aka "suicide doors". These do require a lot of room to open, because you have to open the front door fairly wide in order to make room for the rear door to clear the front door. Also, any passenger in the rear had to wait for someone to open the front door before he could open his rear door to exit the vehicle.

One of the big differences in "crew cab" pickups (apart from a few inches more space) were true rear doors, doors that were front hinged and could be opened independently of the front doors.

I believe Dodge was the first to offer true rear doors on their extended cab pickups. Toyota was right behind. Chevrolet and Ford lagged behind on this, Chevrolet finally did it for the 2014 model year and I was really expecting Ford to do it for the 2015 model year.

This may be a moot point before long, as extended cab pickups may be going the way of the dodo bird:

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/consumer/163_1310_editors_desk_endangered_species_extended_cab_trucks/

Good article...explains the problem very well.

Today is prep day for me....I just drank 7 glasses of water! I have to do it again at 6:30. OMG!

Kirstie_H · October 2014

driver100 said:

Interesting comment. I thought suicide doors were a good thing in that it makes for a larger entrance way. I thought the downside was a lack of strength - not having a post - and also the chance the door could blow open if not closed all the way.

I guess it would take up more room if parked next to another car as it would have to swing the full size of the door to open. Wonder what Ford's reasoning was?

Our previous pickup had them on one side, and I absolutely HATED them when trying to unload groceries or other shopping into the back seat. You can't get the cart in there, because you'd have to do so before opening the doors, and then there's no room to open the doors if you're parked next to someone... so unloading a semi-full cart required multiple openings/closings of the back door in order to access the cart.

abacomike · October 2014

@Kirstie_H‌:

We all thought you ceased to exist! Thank goodness you are alive and well - we all missed you.

Good to hear from you Kirstie! Stay in touch.

roadburner · October 2014

Here are a couple of pictures BMW has already released- I don't understand why the designers added that Impala fender crease to the rear quarter panels. The car/truck actually has a true glass cockpit- the gauges are now images on a video screen, and their configuration and color change depending on the selected driving mode. "ECO PRO" mode is blue with a large "energy gauge" above the tachometer, "Comfort" looks pretty conventional while "Sport" and "Sport+" are red with color bands instead of gauge needles. A bit too PS4 for my tastes...
-

stickguy · October 2014

yet another thing being fixed that wasn't actually broken?

sb55 · October 2014

driver100 said:

henryn said:
I don't like suicide doors. They make it very hard to load things into the back seat when you are in a normal tight parking spot. Ford is the last manufacturer to have suicide doors on their super-cab/extended cab models. Chevrolet finally eliminated them for the 2014 model year, Dodge and Toyota eliminated them many years back.
Interesting comment. I thought suicide doors were a good thing in that it makes for a larger entrance way. I thought the downside was a lack of strength - not having a post - and also the chance the door could blow open if not closed all the way.

I guess it would take up more room if parked next to another car as it would have to swing the full size of the door to open. Wonder what Ford's reasoning was?

I had suicide doors on my 2010 Sierra. I live on a dirt road, and when it gets "washboardy", the doors sometimes shook so much that they loosened up and I got wind noise unless I stopped and re-slammed the doors. My new 2014 Silverado has conventional doors and it really seems much stiffer and quieter.

driver100 · October 2014

Kirstie_H said:

driver100 said:

Interesting comment. I thought suicide doors were a good thing in that it makes for a larger entrance way. I thought the downside was a lack of strength - not having a post - and also the chance the door could blow open if not closed all the way.

I guess it would take up more room if parked next to another car as it would have to swing the full size of the door to open. Wonder what Ford's reasoning was?
Our previous pickup had them on one side, and I absolutely HATED them when trying to unload groceries or other shopping into the back seat. You can't get the cart in there, because you'd have to do so before opening the doors, and then there's no room to open the doors if you're parked next to someone... so unloading a semi-full cart required multiple openings/closings of the back door in order to access the cart.

Nice to have you back!

I guess they didn't ask for a ladies advice when they designed those trucks. Who knew they would be used for grocery shopping?

driver100 · October 2014

roadburner said:
Here are a couple of pictures BMW has already released- I don't understand why the designers added that Impala fender crease to the rear quarter panels. The car/truck actually has a true glass cockpit- the gauges are now images on a video screen, and their configuration and color change depending on the selected driving mode. "ECO PRO" mode is blue with a large "energy gauge" above the tachometer, "Comfort" looks pretty conventional while "Sport" and "Sport+" are red with color bands instead of gauge needles. A bit too PS4 for my tastes...
-

The only nice thing I could say about the outside is "it has a mean look if that's what you are going for".

The inside is pretty nice but I will never understand car makers using flip up screens for the GPS/media unit. If I really wanted the car it wouldn't be a deal breaker, but is not my preference. It looks like it was an afterthought.

stickguy · October 2014

that isn't a flip up. It is fixed in place.

Mazda is doing the same thing. not sure if they just want the look of an ipad stuck on the dash, or plan to someday eliminate the screen and just put a docking station in so you can plug in your own.

explorerx4 · October 2014

X6 is a great car if you want to be noticed when you drive.

@GG, I would get the MKZ Hybrid. Just remember, there may be no engine sound, although the car is ready to go.

nelsonf · October 2014

I remember Top Gear did a segment on the X6. They said it wasn't a good SUV, because of the lack of room in the back, or a good car, too top heavy, and the AWD system stunk.

It's actually a pretty big vehicle up close. Not really sure what its purpose is.

I guess it was a solution looking for a problem.

Nelson

roadburner · October 2014

The X6 is definitely not my kind of car, but I really wanted to drive the X6 M50d that they were giving to the European writers. A torque monster...

driver100 · October 2014

stickguy said:
that isn't a flip up. It is fixed in place.

Mazda is doing the same thing. not sure if they just want the look of an ipad stuck on the dash, or plan to someday eliminate the screen and just put a docking station in so you can plug in your own.

That's even worse. At least the pop ups in the A6 and the C Class can be put down into the dash. I am sure they have some reason they think it looks good, or just couldn't work it into the dash. I thought it could be possible to reach across to the glove compartment or something and knock the whole thing off.

driver100 · October 2014

nelsonf said:
I remember Top Gear did a segment on the X6. They said it wasn't a good SUV, because of the lack of room in the back, or a good car, too top heavy, and the AWD system stunk.

It's actually a pretty big vehicle up close. Not really sure what its purpose is.

I guess it was a solution looking for a problem.

Nelson

The only thing I can think of is the car was designed for Europe. It has a lot of room and bulk over there, yet is smaller than a full size SUV, so Europeans who want an SUV can get something a little smaller.

stickguy · October 2014

Driver, I think the logic is that it is up in eyesight range. Remember, these are all touch screens now, so you need to be able to poke at it while still keeping eyes vaguely near the road.

stickguy · October 2014

Seems like BMW just wants to have the most distinct models of any brand, even if no one wants 1/2 of them, and there is massive overlap.

Agreed that functionally, the only thing it does well is be really expensive.

so my guess, posers will want it.

ab348 · October 2014

Actually, there were crew cab pickups decades ago. But they were rare, and special-ordered for true work situations where you needed to send (guess what?) a crew of workers to a site. I remember seeing '60s International pickups with a 4-door configuration, and I think there were Dodge pickups like that also. Looked them up, here you go - from when pickups were trucks!!

stickguy · October 2014

I would rather have very short normal door on that size cab instead of the suicide ones. Cab is plenty big enough in the extended version.

abacomike · October 2014

@driver‌

"The only thing I can think of is the car was designed for Europe. It has a lot of room and bulk over there, yet is smaller than a full size SUV, so Europeans who want an SUV can get something a little smaller."

I disagree, driver. Europeans are more into cars, smaller engines, and less weight. North Americans are more into SUV's and the like, along with trucks (pick-ups) and larger cars.

Remember that gasoline is quite costly in Europe and the populous is more into high mileage small cars. We are not as addicted to economy cars as they are. Once the price of gasoline drops, like it is now, the less we insist on higher mileage vehicles. Americans have short memories when it comes to the high prices of fuel - like what is happening now. Here, it's the government that mandates minimum fuel economy requirements, not the buyer's wallet.

driver100 · October 2014

stickguy said:
Driver, I think the logic is that it is up in eyesight range. Remember, these are all touch screens now, so you need to be able to poke at it while still keeping eyes vaguely near the road.

That sounds likely.....good thinking stick! I think there is still a better way to do it so it doesn't just stick up and looks flimsy. It can be the same, but look more built in....could even swivel in a bit of a garage built into the top of the dash.

Swivel just reminded me of those old Buick speedometers that could be swivelled. The speedo was actually made with the numbers in a mirror image, and reflected onto a mirror, which could swivel up or down.

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