Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100 · January 2015

stickguy said:
well Sandy, you are probably close to enough fruitless trips to the dealer to file a lemon law claim. Even if you don't, telling them that you are ready to might get some attention.

honestly, it will take so little time and effort (and negligible cost) to just swap out the wheels with another car, I don't know why they are resisting that so much.

I'd go to another dealer. You'll just get the runaround at VW corporate. My guy took my number and asked me to call in a week. Then he went on vacation and I had to start all over again......and that was with Audi.....VW will be worse.

roadburner · January 2015

jayrider said:
This whole thing with Sandy seems so odd.
There just seems to be no effort by the dealer to resolve the problem. I would schedule a meeting with the GM to see if this kind of customer interaction behavior comes from the top.

Yeah, it seems like they don't give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] about customer satisfaction- they just want him to go away; the fact that they gave him that "it's normal, the Audi is just tuned different" BS is proof positive...

oldfarmer50 · January 2015

isellhondas said:

oldfarmer50 said:

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.
Anything to watch out for? How about the price? Never saw people ask for so much for miled up old cars.
Hondas hold their value for a REASON!

You can certainly pay less and get some ratty Korean or domestic used car!

Forgive me if I struck a nerve but Hondas I see listed for sale are much higher than other cars of equal quality. The REASON may have as much to do with the perception of quality as the actual quality. Why otherwise would a used Honda sell for the same as a new one?

imidazol97 · January 2015

A

oldfarmer50 said:

Forgive me if I struck a nerve but Hondas I see listed for sale are much higher than other cars of equal quality. The REASON may have as much to do with the perception of quality as the actual quality. Why otherwise would a used Honda sell for the same as a new one?

Interesting point and on target. We see the GM recalls and problems with NHTSA and it's rolled over and over and throw up for discussion and blame and then the repeated comments of bailout money is tossed in as added negativity.
Honda now has double the penalty for not reporting death and injury problems and it's ignored. Absolutely amazing.
Perception vs reality.

And today at the GM dealership replacing a minor part on my car at my request, a school bus driver on a snow day off was having her oil changed in her Civic (I asked if she knew anyone in New York and she said no). She mentioned she was looking for a replacement for her Civic and thought she'd get a used CRV.

Thinking back to Roadburner's talk and other's comments, the other chap and I asked why she'd buy a used one which likely would be overvalued for some reason when she might be able to buy a new one for less than a one-year old or maybe even a two-year old CRV. She didn't seem to understand the concept of "less" because of various pushes for sales vs the used market's biases and pricing toward those who might not get a loan for a new one.

She seemed to understand how hard it would be to find one a few years old with lower mileage at a good price. She does have help since her daughter works at a Korean dealership.

She then mentioned that she was considering another smaller SUV similar to the CRV, a Captiva. Her problem is her 98 Civic leaks a bit of oil despite maintenance. And it has 216 K miles. I told her according to sources, that's just getting broken in for a Civic, but she didn't seem to follow the humor. She sounds determined to change cars before she retires.

As I was leaving she was getting into her Civic. Black. Coupe!!!. Spotless outside. Normal tires and wheels. Normal muffler--no fart can. She could drag that car around the local area with a for sale sign on it for twice whatever a normal person would value her Civic and get that price. She drives a bus in a neighboring district that's not as affluent as where I live, but she could park that at our high school lot and have it sold within 24 hours to a parent with money.

imidazol97 · January 2015

Go Bucks. National Champions!!! Rated #4 for the playoffs. Ended up #1. WOW.

28firefighter · January 2015

O-H!

imidazol97 · January 2015

28firefighter said:
O-H!

I.....O!

graphicguy · January 2015

My son manages the IT Dept at The Ohio State U College of Education. He said the campus was absolutely nuts last night. He also said 3 of his staff called in sick today.....Hmmmmmmm!

4 turnovers and still won, with their 3rd string QB. Quite impressive.

bwia · January 2015

Nice discussion about the Cadillac brand. I hope GM is reading this thread. Anyway, here are my two cents on the subject.

The prescription for reversing the CTS' deteriorating sales trend is to cut prices by at least 25% as well as make overtures to their traditional buyers (i.e. people over 60 with lots of money.) To ignore your prime demographic in pursuit of a few performance oriented buyers is not a good recipe for the brand.

I may be wrong but in Economics 101 they preach that high prices and sales volume go in opposite directions. Lamborghini is a prime example of that of that strategy. It builds high performance and high price cars but the company is yet to turn a profit in years. Lesson learned.

The sales figures for the last five years tell a dismal story
2010..... 45,656
2011….. 55,042
2012….. 46,979
2013….. 32,343
2014….. 31,115

fezo · January 2015

" To ignore your prime demographic in pursuit of a few performance oriented buyers is not a good recipe for the brand."

We call that the Oldsmobile effect.

jsyodes · January 2015

isellhondas said:

jsyodes said:

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.
Tell her to move up to the 2005, the 2005 had side airbags and VSA, which I don't believe the 2004's had, at least the 2004 LX like my mom's didn't.

Steve
Our 2003 CRV has side airbags.

here are the safety features according to the Institute for Highway Safety, 2002-2006 Honda CR-V:

Side airbags: front and rear head curtain airbags and front seat-mounted torso airbags (2005-06 models)

Side airbags: front seat-mounted torso airbags (optional in 2002-04 models)

Rollover sensor: designed to deploy the side curtain airbags in the event of an impending rollover (2005-06 models)

Electronic stability control (2005-06 models)

Antilock brakes (except 2002-04 LX models)

So they may have been an option, but they weren't on all vehicles, prior to the 2005 model. The 2005 has more safety features, so I would recommend starting there.

Steve

qbrozen · January 2015

bwia said:
Nice discussion about the Cadillac brand. I hope GM is reading this thread. Anyway, here are my two cents on the subject.

The prescription for reversing the CTS' deteriorating sales trend is to cut prices by at least 25% as well as make overtures to their traditional buyers (i.e. people over 60 with lots of money.) To ignore your prime demographic in pursuit of a few performance oriented buyers is not a good recipe for the brand.

I may be wrong but in Economics 101 they preach that high prices and sales volume go in opposite directions. Lamborghini is a prime example of that of that strategy. It builds high performance and high price cars but the company is yet to turn a profit in years. Lesson learned.

The sales figures for the last five years tell a dismal story
2010..... 45,656
2011….. 55,042
2012….. 46,979
2013….. 32,343
2014….. 31,115

I was going to ask where you got those numbers, but then found them on wikipedia. I am a bit surprised the CTS didn't see an increase with the 2014 redesign. However, I'm not sure the wiki number is accurate. If you follow the reference they cite, it does not contain sales numbers.

roadburner · January 2015

imidazol97 said:
A
oldfarmer50 said:

Forgive me if I struck a nerve but Hondas I see listed for sale are much higher than other cars of equal quality. The REASON may have as much to do with the perception of quality as the actual quality. Why otherwise would a used Honda sell for the same as a new one?
Interesting point and on target. We see the GM recalls and problems with NHTSA and it's rolled over and over and throw up for discussion and blame and then the repeated comments of bailout money is tossed in as added negativity.
Honda now has double the penalty for not reporting death and injury problems and it's ignored. Absolutely amazing.
Perception vs reality.

And today at the GM dealership replacing a minor part on my car at my request, a school bus driver on a snow day off was having her oil changed in her Civic (I asked if she knew anyone in New York and she said no). She mentioned she was looking for a replacement for her Civic and thought she'd get a used CRV.

Thinking back to Roadburner's talk and other's comments, the other chap and I asked why she'd buy a used one which likely would be overvalued for some reason when she might be able to buy a new one for less than a one-year old or maybe even a two-year old CRV. She didn't seem to understand the concept of "less" because of various pushes for sales vs the used market's biases and pricing toward those who might not get a loan for a new one.

She seemed to understand how hard it would be to find one a few years old with lower mileage at a good price. She does have help since her daughter works at a Korean dealership.

She then mentioned that she was considering another smaller SUV similar to the CRV, a Captiva. Her problem is her 98 Civic leaks a bit of oil despite maintenance. And it has 216 K miles. I told her according to sources, that's just getting broken in for a Civic, but she didn't seem to follow the humor. She sounds determined to change cars before she retires.

As I was leaving she was getting into her Civic. Black. Coupe!!!. Spotless outside. Normal tires and wheels. Normal muffler--no fart can. She could drag that car around the local area with a for sale sign on it for twice whatever a normal person would value her Civic and get that price. She drives a bus in a neighboring district that's not as affluent as where I live, but she could park that at our high school lot and have it sold within 24 hours to a parent with money.

The person who I'm helping already has an Accord that she absolutely loves, so for her it's a logical move to seek out another Honda- why rock the boat?

Much like my attitude toward BMW- back when Munich designed virtually all of its cars to appeal to enthusiasts...

imidazol97 · January 2015

graphicguy said:
My son manages the IT Dept at The Ohio State U College of Education. He said the campus was absolutely nuts last night. He also said 3 of his staff called in sick today.....Hmmmmmmm!

4 turnovers and still won, with their 3rd string QB. Quite impressive.

Skilled players working as a team and not getting excited but just keeping on, keeping on
with what they practiced..
Skilled coaching.

If they hadn't had the ball knocked out of them by the Oregon's tactics that might have lowered
Oregon's scores more and made the win more of a one-sided statement. I was laughing
when one of oregon's few strong points, the quick playset, caused them to blow up with 4
calls against them.

For years the ESPN announcers have not liked OSU. It still showed in the calls for this
game that the announcers were enamored with Oregon's team, especially the quarterback.
At least the quarterback was very good in his statements after the game

. When one turnover occured, one of the announcers giggled like a girl with glee
that Oregon had the ball back. Not
very professional. But those announcers were sure OSU was just lucky in past years
and weren't really as good as they looked.

Son still has the apartment 1 block east of High at the student union. I wondered how
he got back after the game party at his girlfriend's in apartments north of campus.
News said High was blocked with traffic. I hope he was smart enough to cut across
north of the campus. Wonder if he smelled tear gas at his apartments.

houdini1 · January 2015

imidazol97 said:

graphicguy said:
My son manages the IT Dept at The Ohio State U College of Education. He said the campus was absolutely nuts last night. He also said 3 of his staff called in sick today.....Hmmmmmmm!

4 turnovers and still won, with their 3rd string QB. Quite impressive.
Skilled players working as a team and not getting excited but just keeping on, keeping on
with what they practiced..
Skilled coaching.

If they hadn't had the ball knocked out of them by the Oregon's tactics that might have lowered
Oregon's scores more and made the win more of a one-sided statement. I was laughing
when one of oregon's few strong points, the quick playset, caused them to blow up with 4
calls against them.

For years the ESPN announcers have not liked OSU. It still showed in the calls for this
game that the announcers were enamored with Oregon's team, especially the quarterback.
At least the quarterback was very good in his statements after the game

. When one turnover occured, one of the announcers giggled like a girl with glee
that Oregon had the ball back. Not
very professional. But those announcers were sure OSU was just lucky in past years
and weren't really as good as they looked.

Son still has the apartment 1 block east of High at the student union. I wondered how
he got back after the game party at his girlfriend's in apartments north of campus.
News said High was blocked with traffic. I hope he was smart enough to cut across
north of the campus. Wonder if he smelled tear gas at his apartments.

Congrats Keith, great win and well deserved !! I heard that all the bookies in Las Vegas were pulling for Oregon because of a lot of bets placed early in 2014 on OSU to win the national title at 100 to 1 odds.

thebean · January 2015

imidazol97 said:
...For years the ESPN announcers have not liked OSU. It still showed in the calls for this game that the announcers were enamored with Oregon's team, especially the quarterback. At least the quarterback was very good in his statements after the game . When one turnover occured, one of the announcers giggled like a girl with glee that Oregon had the ball back. Not very professional. But those announcers were sure OSU was just lucky in past years and weren't really as good as they looked...

Kirk Herbstreit is an OSU alum, so how can you say he favored Oregon? I had no rooting interest (small college alum), and I thought ESPN was pretty balanced. OSU won fair & square - no reason to try to smear the broadcasters.

stever · January 2015

I just followed the game on some blog and noticed quite a few comments about the "giddy" pro-OSU commentators on ESPN. Go figure.

Lincoln's 2014 sales were down but barely (0.5%). Credit to the McConaughey ads I guess, and I doubt that Ford plans to spend 12 billion to revive the brand like GM says they are going to.

imidazol97 · January 2015

thebean said:
no reason to try to smear the broadcasters.

I've listened to them and their analyses for 3 years or so. Listen to the voice patterns and it shows up when they have their own opinion. Not to repeat myself, but the tone, choice of words, excitement, etc., were there for the first 3 quarters of this game. You heard something different than I did. Frankly, it's hard to explain when a turnover gets a giggle of glee from one of the talkers because he was so happy it happened--not professional for someone who talks for a living in an analytical business rather than a political situation or a business where inciting an emotion one way or another is the goal.

We can agree to disagree. I've been wrong before, my wife tells me! LOL.

driver100 · January 2015

imidazol97 said:
A
oldfarmer50 said:

Thinking back to Roadburner's talk and other's comments, the other chap and I asked why she'd buy a used one which likely would be overvalued for some reason when she might be able to buy a new one for less than a one-year old or maybe even a two-year old CRV. She didn't seem to understand the concept of "less" because of various pushes for sales vs the used market's biases and pricing toward those who might not get a loan for a new one.

Honda's are in demand because the quality is there. They are dependable, and make excellent used cars.

My IT friend who lost his 2002 Honda in an accident would have bought another used Honda if he hadn't asked for my advice. He is a computer genius but he doesn't know about cars. He bought his 4 year old Civic in 2008, and he never thought he would buy a new car. He is a minimalist, although he made good money, he has minimum furniture, wears clothes people give him etc. He is also a real "green" environmentalist type, who would think a new car would be a waste of money and resources.

I explained a new car uses less gas, oil and creates less pollution. Because a good low mileage used Honda is hard to find he will actually be further ahead buying a new car. His old car probably got totalled at just the right time, before it cost him more for repairs and also while an insurance company would give him $4500 he can use toward a new car.

So, in the case of that lady, I don't think she knows how to calculate the true cost of buying a new car vs. a used one....especially a Honda. For us car people, it doesn't make sense, but for a lot of people they will assume a used car is always the best way to buy a car.

driver100 · January 2015

bwia said:

The sales figures for the last five years tell a dismal story
2010..... 45,656
2011….. 55,042
2012….. 46,979
2013….. 32,343
2014….. 31,115

Those Cadillac numbers are interesting to see. I googled Cadillac declining sales and came up with some good information from USAToday and Forbes. The cars are good, it is trying to carve out a place in a very competitive market. I don't think moving their offices to New York will do much good, and they just changed advertising agencies too. That seems to be a move to buy time for the execs. That's what they do to make it sound like they know what they are doing - and that they have a plan.

They have to do what Hyundai did.....superior product for less money and get people into the showroom.

stever · January 2015

Maybe they should have just gone whole hog and kept going from NY to Shanghai.

graphicguy · January 2015

bwia said:
Nice discussion about the Cadillac brand. I hope GM is reading this thread. Anyway, here are my two cents on the subject.

The prescription for reversing the CTS' deteriorating sales trend is to cut prices by at least 25% as well as make overtures to their traditional buyers (i.e. people over 60 with lots of money.) To ignore your prime demographic in pursuit of a few performance oriented buyers is not a good recipe for the brand.

I may be wrong but in Economics 101 they preach that high prices and sales volume go in opposite directions. Lamborghini is a prime example of that of that strategy. It builds high performance and high price cars but the company is yet to turn a profit in years. Lesson learned.

The sales figures for the last five years tell a dismal story
2010..... 45,656
2011….. 55,042
2012….. 46,979
2013….. 32,343
2014….. 31,115

Not sure about the numbers, but what they don't mention is that Cadillac divided up the market for the CTS into two segments. The previous CTS was going after the BMW 3, 5 series, A4 and A6, Mercedes C and E class, Lexus IS, ES and GS.

Now, Cadillac broke out the previous CTS market focus into two distinct models....the ATS and the CTS. Plus, the CTS' coupe is based on the previous generation.

I don't see Cadillac going back to trying to retain their previous demographic. Lincoln spent years doint that, while finally realizing that pie is shrinking.

So, while the numbers look flacid, in actuality you must look at the ATS, ATS coupe, the CTS, the CTS-V sport, the (upcoming) CTS-V and the (upcoming) CTS coupe and add all those numbers together to get the correct picture as far as sales volume.

imid...just spoke to my son on the phone. He said High Street in Columbus still has some revelers in the middle of the street partying. He said cops are watching closely, but no one is out of hand and they're letting them continue the celebration.

Closure on the dishwasher shopping. Ended up with a Kitcheaid from HH Gregg. I think it's an Architect II, whatever that means. HH Gregg, while a little too agressive when it comes to their sales people, they are just as agressive when it comes to pricing. They beat Sears, Best Buy, Lowes, Home Depot and actually looked up some on line stores for me (AJ Madison, Abe's of Maine and one other) and beat their prices, too. They delivered and installed the next day.

Lowes and Home Depot were going to take a week or two to order it and get it installed.

Dang...these things are quiet....I mean to the point where you don't know if they're running.

thebean · January 2015

imidazol97 said:
We can agree to disagree. I've been wrong before, my wife tells me! LOL.

As have I

. Glad we can keep this civil. Thanks

imidazol97 · January 2015

driver100 said:
So, in the case of that lady, I don't think she knows how to calculate the true cost of buying a new car vs. a used one....especially a Honda. For us car people, it doesn't make sense, but for a lot of people they will assume a used car is always the best way to buy a car.

Her thinking was different than mine. I couldn't see her logic. Somehow she thinks she'll find a CRV a couple years old with low miles and a likelihood of no service for another 20 years and be able to buy it priced low enough to be doable without a loan. She kept mentioning she didn't want a loan.

I was really stunned that her old Civic looked so good. The black paint did not show the clear coat debonding like so many. She must keep it garaged and driving bus it only sat outside early morning and then for a few short hours in the middle afternoon. Most people's cars are sitting out all day at work. And hers wasn't sitting out in the direct summer sun since most schools don't run buses from June through August. If I'd seen her car earlier, I'd have suggested things have changed with the various car models. She's probably not going to have a car requiring little or no maintenance. However, she did admit that she has spent money on it trying to do maintenance that wasn't necessary but she had it done to stop the oil leaking, e.g.. I'd call that necessary maintenance. There were some Civics that leak oil through a porous or cracked block from sometime in that era.

graphicguy · January 2015

RB...my wife absolutely loves her Accord. It's her first.

I have a business colleague who bought an Accord Hybrid and loves his, too.

First Hondas for both my wife and colleague. I think they're converts for life.

roadburner · January 2015

graphicguy said:
RB...my wife absolutely loves her Accord. It's her first.

I have a business colleague who bought an Accord Hybrid and loves his, too.

First Hondas for both my wife and colleague. I think they're converts for life.

I think I've mentioned this before, but a couple of years before we got married my future wife and I were shopping for a new car for her. This was in the mid '80s; the dark days of import quotas which made popular Japanese cars like the Accord a bit tough to get. We shopped three dealers in the Cincinnati area and without exception each one wanted to play games- one would only talk payments, another wanted a $500 deposit before taking our offer to the sales manager, and so on. Now, I realize that the conduct of those dealers wasn't Honda's fault, but I honestly think that if she had been able to buy an Accord without playing all those asinine games she would still be driving a Honda today. As it was, she went domestic one final time and after that moved to the European camp with the exception of an early Nissan Pathfinder(back when they were actually capable of going off-road).

qbrozen · January 2015

graphicguy said:

Now, Cadillac broke out the previous CTS market focus into two distinct models....the ATS and the CTS.

Good point.

oldfarmer50 · January 2015

bwia said:
Nice discussion about the Cadillac brand. I hope GM is reading this thread. Anyway, here are my two cents on the subject.

The prescription for reversing the CTS' deteriorating sales trend is to cut prices by at least 25% as well as make overtures to their traditional buyers (i.e. people over 60 with lots of money.) To ignore your prime demographic in pursuit of a few performance oriented buyers is not a good recipe for the brand.

I may be wrong but in Economics 101 they preach that high prices and sales volume go in opposite directions. Lamborghini is a prime example of that of that strategy. It builds high performance and high price cars but the company is yet to turn a profit in years. Lesson learned.

The sales figures for the last five years tell a dismal story
2010..... 45,656
2011….. 55,042
2012….. 46,979
2013….. 32,343
2014….. 31,115

Maybe take a page from Hyundai's playbook and deliver good product for real cheap for a few years. That turned them around after their early junky models.

Ooops I see driver100 beat me on that idea.

robr2 · January 2015

Looks like Cadillac will develop an entry level RWD offering under the ATS to compete against the CLA and A3:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150112/RETAIL01/150119900/cadillac-will-develop-entry-level-sedan-de-nysschen-says

driver100 · January 2015

roadburner said:

graphicguy said:
RB...my wife absolutely loves her Accord. It's her first.

I have a business colleague who bought an Accord Hybrid and loves his, too.

We shopped three dealers in the Cincinnati area and without exception each one wanted to play games- one would only talk payments, another wanted a $500 deposit before taking our offer to the sales manager, and so on.

That reminds me of a real pet peave. Taking a substantial, or indeed, any deposit before taking the deal to the manager or the secretary or somewhere else. When I went in and negotiated a price with my old bmw dealer they wanted a $5000 deposit....on VISA. The 2nd bmw dealer where I bought the 535 left and came back, no deposit required. At Audi we negotiated a price, no deposit required.

I feel like I am being treated like a criminal at a dealer where I have bought 3 cars! I can see them maybe getting a deposit if selling a low price car where people might walk out over $50, or take the price or paperwork to another dealer, but, asking someone for a deposit seems a bit much to me.

driver100 · January 2015

oldfarmer50 said:

bwia said:
Nice discussion about the Cadillac brand. I hope GM is reading this thread. Anyway, here are my two cents on the subject.

The prescription for reversing the CTS' deteriorating sales trend is to cut prices by at least 25% as well as make overtures to their traditional buyers (i.e. people over 60 with lots of money.) To ignore your prime demographic in pursuit of a few performance oriented buyers is not a good recipe for the brand.

I may be wrong but in Economics 101 they preach that high prices and sales volume go in opposite directions. Lamborghini is a prime example of that of that strategy. It builds high performance and high price cars but the company is yet to turn a profit in years. Lesson learned.

The sales figures for the last five years tell a dismal story
2010..... 45,656
2011….. 55,042
2012….. 46,979
2013….. 32,343
2014….. 31,115

Maybe take a page from Hyundai's playbook and deliver good product for real cheap for a few years. That turned them around after their early junky models.

Ooops I see driver100 beat me on that idea.

Well, as one friend used to say, "Great minds think alike". But then, "Fools seldom differ".

btw...where is Mike these days?

robr2 · January 2015

driver100 said:

btw...where is Mike these days?

Car shopping I presume.

driver100 · January 2015

We have the largest Ford dealer in Florida nearby and sometimes their ads do make me wonder what the catch is. They have a 2015 Ford Taurus for $19995, regular $27615. That seems to be a lot of car for the money. Some of these Turus's get up into the $42k range!

The ad states this which I found curious:

This vehicle is available for sale only for titling and registering in the state of Florida. This Vehicle is not available for export, or for sale to be titled in other states and countries.

Also, in the newspaper they say their is a dealer fee of $595 and electronic filing charge of $108.

driver100 · January 2015

robr2 said:

driver100 said:

btw...where is Mike these days?

btw...where is Mike these days?

Car shopping I presume.

lol...but, it is a little early, even for Mike. Maybe the mall or the casino, or Chick-Fil-A

robr2 · January 2015

driver100 said:
We have the largest Ford dealer in Florida nearby and sometimes their ads do make me wonder what the catch is. They have a 2015 Ford Taurus for $19995, regular $27615. That seems to be a lot of car for the money. Some of these Turus's get up into the $42k range!

The ad states this which I found curious:

This vehicle is available for sale only for titling and registering in the state of Florida. This Vehicle is not available for export, or for sale to be titled in other states and countries.

Also, in the newspaper they say their is a dealer fee of $595 and electronic filing charge of $108.

I probably has to do with regional incentives that are funded by the local Ford dealers association.

graphicguy · January 2015

robr....

"Cadillac is the challenger brand," de Nysschen said. "We want to build our reputation as a purveyor of high-performance drivers' cars …"

That pretty much sums it up. Throw in their high end tech, luxury and build, that sounds like a recipe for success.

robr2 · January 2015

graphicguy said:
robr....

"Cadillac is the challenger brand," de Nysschen said. "We want to build our reputation as a purveyor of high-performance drivers' cars …"

That pretty much sums it up. Throw in their high end tech, luxury and build, that sounds like a recipe for success.

And it's going to take a while. Folks looking at 3 months of new CTS sales saying they are going in the wrong direction are short sighted. The initial CTS was a start. The ATS and new CTS are setting the groundwork. The CT6, next ATS, new entry level unit will all help expand the brand. It's going to take 5-10 years to fully transition.

imidazol97 · January 2015

How about a new Buick, based on a concept car? Suggestions being made to call it "Riviera."
How does this fit into Buick's lineup to change the target demographic?

Or how about a coupe?

And a sedan?

robr2 · January 2015

The Avenir - absolutely stunning.

Michaell · January 2015

Before I ready the linked article on the smaller Cadillac, I thought - "great, a Cadillac Cruze".

Guess not - they want to make it RWD. Which I think will appeal to enthusiasts. AWD for the rest of us - I hope.

roadburner · January 2015

robr2 said:
The Avenir - absolutely stunning.

It would have to be V8 and RWD to fit the proportions.

bwia · January 2015

graphicguy said:

bwia said:
Nice discussion about the Cadillac brand. I hope GM is reading this thread. Anyway, here are my two cents on the subject.

The prescription for reversing the CTS' deteriorating sales trend is to cut prices by at least 25% as well as make overtures to their traditional buyers (i.e. people over 60 with lots of money.) To ignore your prime demographic in pursuit of a few performance oriented buyers is not a good recipe for the brand.

I may be wrong but in Economics 101 they preach that high prices and sales volume go in opposite directions. Lamborghini is a prime example of that of that strategy. It builds high performance and high price cars but the company is yet to turn a profit in years. Lesson learned.

The sales figures for the last five years tell a dismal story
2010..... 45,656
2011….. 55,042
2012….. 46,979
2013….. 32,343
2014….. 31,115

Not sure about the numbers, but what they don't mention is that Cadillac divided up the market for the CTS into two segments. The previous CTS was going after the BMW 3, 5 series, A4 and A6, Mercedes C and E class, Lexus IS, ES and GS.

Now, Cadillac broke out the previous CTS market focus into two distinct models....the ATS and the CTS. Plus, the CTS' coupe is based on the previous generation.

I don't see Cadillac going back to trying to retain their previous demographic. Lincoln spent years doint that, while finally realizing that pie is shrinking.

So, while the numbers look flacid, in actuality you must look at the ATS, ATS coupe, the CTS, the CTS-V sport, the (upcoming) CTS-V and the (upcoming) CTS coupe and add all those numbers together to get the correct picture as far as sales volume.

Excellent point. However, even combining the ATS and CTS' sales the trend is downward, especially from month to month. Here is the link for future reference.

U.S. Sales Cadillac ATS & CTS combined
2012....... 7,008 + 46,979 = 53,987
2013..... 38,319 + 32,343 = 70,762
2014..... 29,890 + 31,115 = 61,005
________________
Source: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/cadillac-cts-sales-figures.html

robr2 · January 2015

roadburner said:

robr2 said:
The Avenir - absolutely stunning.
It would have to be V8 and RWD to fit the proportions.

My understanding is that if the Avenir is made, it will share the platform of the new Cadillac CT6 which will be RWD/AWD with 6 and 8 cylinder engines.

stickguy · January 2015

That is sharp looking.

driver100 · January 2015

imidazol97 said:
How about a new Buick, based on a concept car? Suggestions being made to call it "Riviera."
How does this fit into Buick's lineup to change the target demographic?

Or how about a coupe?

And a sedan?

That Buick looks pretty nice at first glance, but, I have some reservations. First, 2 door coupes are a very limited market these days. Why come out with a car that will only appeal to a small market. It is like when GM brought out the VUE and Solstice. Why spend so much money on cars with such limited appeal?

The 4 door sedan which is really a 4 door coupe...like an A7, & Series, CLS550 also has limited appeal in it's market. Those cars have low rooflines, tearable vision lines, hard to get in and out of, uncomfortable, lack of headroom especially in the rear.

RR had a good point too, those cars are a little out of proportion if you consider today's standards, mostly max 6 cylinders.

Most car designs look great when you see the futuristic models. Those cars do have a nice look to them on paper, kind of a WOW factor but, in real life......I am not so sure.

Pleasant design is in the eyes of the beholder, not everyone likes the same designs, but I think people are looking for designs that have an element of practicality to them these days. That could change if gas stays cheap.

fezo · January 2015

I really like the convertible but if I'm buying that it's after it's available a couple of years used.

henryn · January 2015

My thoughts on the big game last night. Yes, I watched, and congratulations to Ohio State, the undisputed champion. I think this new playoff system was long overdue, and a very worthwhile improvement.

As to the announcers, ESPN had their very best team covering this event. I haven’t seen the numbers yet, but this was most likely the largest event that ESPN has ever broadcast, so naturally they would have their best team front and center.

During the 3rd quarter, it was starting to look like Ohio State was going to run away with the game. I myself was about to turn it off. But lo and behold, two quick turnovers, Oregon scores 10 points, and the game is very much in doubt. The announcers became excited, of course they did, so did I, so did everyone watching. A close game is a lot more interesting, a lot more fun to watch, for the viewers at home, and for the broadcasting crew themselves.

In short, I don’t believe that what you heard / saw / detected was bias on the part of the announcers for one team over the other, but simply their excitement that the game had become, once again, a game instead of a runaway.

Of course, that didn’t last very long. (smile)

qbrozen · January 2015

bwia said:

U.S. Sales Cadillac ATS & CTS combined
2012....... 7,008 + 46,979 = 53,987
2013..... 38,319 + 32,343 = 70,762
2014..... 29,890 + 31,115 = 61,005
________________
Source: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/cadillac-cts-sales-figures.html

well, wait a sec now. That looks much much better. Big upswing with the ATS, then a small downtick after getting all initial ATS buyers out of the way. Sales typically trend down as a model ages. HOWEVER, I would also point out that it is too early to call it quits on the 2014 models. They are still being sold. So, while that number may not go up much, I think it tells a very different story than you were originally portraying.

dino001 · January 2015

qbrozen said:

bwia said:

U.S. Sales Cadillac ATS & CTS combined
2012....... 7,008 + 46,979 = 53,987
2013..... 38,319 + 32,343 = 70,762
2014..... 29,890 + 31,115 = 61,005
________________
Source: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/cadillac-cts-sales-figures.html

well, wait a sec now. That looks much much better. Big upswing with the ATS, then a small downtick after getting all initial ATS buyers out of the way. Sales typically trend down as a model ages. HOWEVER, I would also point out that it is too early to call it quits on the 2014 models. They are still being sold. So, while that number may not go up much, I think it tells a very different story than you were originally portraying.

I think the main story was that 2015 CTS sales crashed, mostly due to very significant price increase with the new model. Cadillac is trying to reposition CTS as clearly midlevel model of their lineup, just like E-class and 5-series, but in doing so they had to lose sales vs. previous year. The overall issue may also be that whatever CTS left behind may not be fully realized by ATS, as some disappointed buyers may simply walk away from the brand altogether. ATS was cannibalizing previous CTS, now it should pick up some sales of the trade-down from CTS due to pricing, but not all - so at the end of the day the combination may suffer some significant losses in unit sales for 2015.

In my opinion, no matter how good the CTS may be, Cadillac got too greedy. It took Lexus 20 years to convince people their cars are worth just as much as the Germans (sometimes even more), Cadillac just made an improvement and wants the cash now. That's not how it works. You sweat and toil, yes sir, no sir, we will fix your car no charge, no questions... THEN, when the word spreads you can think of asking for more. Too many times GM declared itself "fixed" for people to believe it just because they say so.

This is especially true now, when previous year model was also being sold at very steep model-end discounts, which could create nearly 20 thousand dollar gap between somewhat similar (not exactly similar due to size and upgrades) models. I don't know if it was arrogance, lack of understanding, or what. Doesn't matter, the effect is still the sales crashed and they are slashing MSRP by 3 grand for some options - and even that may not be enough. The milk has spilled. Price reductions are never good in luxury brand; they can be very good in popular sales, if volumes offset the lost revenue, but never in luxury. In that segment it's always better to hold the price and add content than to simply slash the sticker. Once the news is out, the consumer will be asking for more reductions, rightfully so. Doesn't sell, you want to unload it, gimmie a discount I can brag about... However, perhaps Cadillac has no choice, but press the reset button on that CTS pricing and hope nobody will remember it in few years.

imidazol97 · January 2015

dino001 said:

In that segment it's always better to hold the price and add content than to simply slash the sticker. Once the news is out, the consumer will be asking for more reductions, rightfully so. Doesn't sell, you want to unload it, gimmie a discount I can brag about...

You analysis on price movements fits well with something I read elsewhere a few days ago. They suggested holding the base price but discounting the packages that are popular to give a competitive pricing on the units that are
loaded up with the typical options groups. That's the same as adding content for the same price that you suggest.

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