Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

Sandman6472 · January 2015

VW service manager just called, going in at 3:30 to test drive another vehicle with the same rims and tires to see what's up. She apologized and said my suggestion to my service writer that he blew off is sop at their store and the first step after rebalancing and an alignment check. Miscommunication I guess but the service writer really dropped the ball here and he caused me to go above to the general manager, who I've never heard back from even after an email and regular letter, and then to corporate to lodge my complaint. Folks need to listen to we, the drivers, as we sometimes can be an integral part of solving issues like mine. Am optimistic that driving another vehicle will show it to be a smooth driver and then hopefully, they'll just swap those wheels/tires and put them on my vehicle so I can be done with this matter once and for all...I've had enough of this nonsense already!!!

The Sandman

Michaell · January 2015

sandman_6472 said:
VW service manager just called, going in at 3:30 to test drive another vehicle with the same rims and tires to see what's up. She apologized and said my suggestion to my service writer that he blew off is sop at their store and the first step after rebalancing and an alignment check. Miscommunication I guess but the service writer really dropped the ball here and he caused me to go above to the general manager, who I've never heard back from even after an email and regular letter, and then to corporate to lodge my complaint. Folks need to listen to we, the drivers, as we sometimes can be an integral part of solving issues like mine. Am optimistic that driving another vehicle will show it to be a smooth driver and then hopefully, they'll just swap those wheels/tires and put them on my vehicle so I can be done with this matter once and for all...I've had enough of this nonsense already!!!

The Sandman

sandy, did you ever drive your car with the original wheels and tires?

Hope for the best, but plan for the worst ... if they swap the wheels / tires from the car you drive today, but you still get the vibration, then the problem would be with the suspension on your car.

Sandman6472 · January 2015

Yes, I seem to remember driving a white "S" model first and then mine and do not remember any vibration...but the sales guy was in the passenger seat so I didn't look to see if it vibrated and he never mentioned it. But do remember it drove smoothly. So really optimistic that the issue will be solved with a new set of wheels/tires and if not, will deal with it then. One step at a time is the way to go here, one step at a time!

The Sandman

graphicguy · January 2015

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:

stever said:

karhill1 said:
After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."
High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's ~~amazing~~ depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.
Stever.....the biggest and best tool a buyer has when trying to buy a car are his or her feet. I've used that tool more than once. I've heard "if you can buy the car for the offer you're making, better snatch it up". A few days later when the sales person follows up and calls me, I inform them I took their advice and snatched the car up.

Everyone is afraid that the only way to get a good deal is to play the "bump and grind" game. First time you do your research, make your offer (and no, the dealer won't make a deal if he's losing money) and you're in and out of the dealership in record time, you won't go back to trying to spending inordinate amount of time trying to make a deal.

There was a long time poster here by the nickname of "bobst". He did the same thing. I tried his method of making one offer (IIRC it was for a Pontiac Vibe I was buying as a 2nd car). I looked at Edmunds invoice, looked at incentives, looked at stock levels. I made an offer that was invoice, minus incentives, plus $50, plus tax, title, tags. First dealer wanted to bump me. I walked. 2nd dealer asked if I were buying right now. I informed him I was. We made the deal in 5 minutes.

Couple days later, first dealer called me and countered me with an offer that was still #300 higher than what I paid, with the instruction that I had to come in that night to get the deal as it would be gone tomorrow. I informed him I already made a deal at my original offer.

I've stuck to that way of buying cars ever since.

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?
The thing that I don't understand in your post GG is....you bought a Pontiac Vibe?

Just joking...had to do that.

But, just what if you calculated wrong, give your price.....Here's my trade, here is what I'll pay for the new car........and this is exactly what I will pay all in or I am walking out the door.

And the car maker has just reduced prices that day, or the dealer needs to sell a car that day to make a quota.
What if the dealer would have sold you the car for $500 less just for some unknown reason?

That's why I want to hear his price too. Also, by hearing his price I get an idea how honest he is. When I talked to a salesman about a Honda Fit for my friend he gave me a price, it included a dealer discount of $500 and if he bought by the end of the week he would get a Honda discount of $500. My friend may have haggled for another $100 off but Honda won't vear from these prices by much...maybe throw in floor mats or something. I may have misjudged, walked in and said I want $700 off the MSRP or I am walking, and lose $300!

I'd rather get a sense of where and who I am dealing with....so I let them come up with a price. In fact, I am thinking some time I just may say, you tell me what it will cost for me to buy a new car, I have done all my homework, and if it isn't right on I am leaving.

driver....I know....I know....a Vibe.

This was a lot of years ago. Newly divorced. Was buying some cars I always wanted, which the former spouse would never approve of....mostly, ones which were only worth driving on dry streets. They were used....very used. I had a 300ZX Turbo, a brief flirtation with a Porsche 944, and some other less interesting iron. I was in and out of those cars fairly quickly. But, given they either weren't capable of being daily drivers, or I lost interest in them when the repairs were more than I expected, I needed something reliable which I could count on every day.

Those of you who keep up on automotive genealogy, The Pontiac Vibe was identical to the Toyota Matrix. It was a Toyota design, assembled by Toyota/GM in Freemont CA (now Tesla), the same place they screwed together the identical Toyota Corrola and Chevy Nova clones. Pontiac added a thinly disguised interior, a grill, and at the time, their infamous body cladding.

I'm trying to remember. I think it stickered for somewhere around $17K, give or take, and that was fairly loaded up....A/C. Power everything, Sunroof (part of the sun and sound package where they charged for a sunroof and an allegedly upgraded stereo)., etc. I want to say I paid around $14K and change....maybe $15K, first time making my "one offer" deal. As mentioned, I was turned down by one dealer, the 2nd one took the deal, though.

Great vehicle.....good MPG. slow as a snail, noisy as hell on the highway, but rock solid in all types of weather. Several months after the divorce, I wandered back into the dating scene. Just a wee bit embarrassed to pick her up in the VIBE, but none of my other cars were running.

Took it to Chicago from Cincinnati in a snow storm. It came through with flying colors. Trying to do 70 MPH all the way made my ears ring for a few hours it was so loud, but it made it without incident.

Sandman6472 · January 2015

My first Toyota was a 1988 Corolla FX, small two door hatch but very reasonably priced at the time. A bit bare bones if you will but it worked for us since we had just bought the current casa and had 3 under the age of 3. Impressive mileage for my daily commute and it fit in the garage very comfortably, like the current Golf does. Kept it for almost 9 years and was super reliable when Toyota was at its peak. My new Golf reminds me of it as it has the same goodness and fun to drive quality!!

The Sandman

graphicguy · January 2015

stever said:
@graphicguy, Bruce Williams, bobst. Lots of "old" names coming up. I forget the name of the current guy on, I assume, AM radio, doing the call in money stuff. Bruce was much better because he'd actually stick his neck out and tell you how it was.

(I did flash on @bobst when I read your post. He was a bit infamous around here). Your way really is better than mine. I fool around at the dealer for three hours and then walk, basically having wasted the salesperson's name. Guess I'm always afraid they actually will say okay!

(Aside to @roadburner‌, thanks for the spam click - sometimes jumping around here we miss those so the heads up is much appreciated. Ironically, our automated spam filter caught two of @isellhondas' posts. Go figure.)

"bobst" did battle with some folks here. Not sales people but some who thought they knew how to get a better deal then him. Mostly, the guys who were "dealers are all cheaters and liars" types. One infamous guy he did battle with was banned, would come back under a different user name. Last user name he was under that I can recall was "PCH101". He swore we were all being taken because we weren't treating the dealer sales people like conviceted felons.

Come to find out, he let it slip he bought a clone of the Mitsubishi 3000, but it wasn't the hot turbo model, nor the AWD model, and instead of being the a Mitsubishi, it was a Dodge clone, that needed a ton of work, that he way overpaid for. There was a Nissan sales person who took a lot of grief from this guy, who gave it back to him unmercilessly. Fun times!!!!!

driver...I was a little too agressive in my dealings with making a one price offer at first. I think I probably came in too low a couple of times worried about the same thing you were worried about..."what if I leave some money on the table?". So, I would hit up 4-5 dealerships, only to walk out without a deal, realizing I didn't leave any meat on the bone for them. I realized that leaving a little something there for the dealers to chalk up a unit sold, and a skinny deal for me, everyone's happy. Besides, whatever I might have, may have, maybe not have, left on the table, I more than made up for it by not wasting gas trying to secure a deal....sometimes a couple of hours away.

Exceptions to that rule.....none of the Audi dealers in Cincinnati seemed willing to do a skinny deal. Had to go to Chicago to do that. But, the delta between the local dealers and the Chicago dealers wasn't a hundred or two, it was thousands. So, I was willing to make that trip.

Now, it's old hat. I have a really good idea what I can buy a car for, and if the dealer is willing to get skinny without the "bump and grind". First bump attempt, I leave. Works for me. May not work for all.

I see some foiks in the "prices paid" thread who will email a ton of dealers, and get frustrated when they end up at the dealer and find extra charges, or other fees added to wha they thought was the best deal they could get. Or, the people who will drive hours to get the best deal, only to hear..."oh, we sold the unit you were interested in, but we have this one over here that's just 'slightly' more money".

I always set up and appointment and keep it when I'm going to a dealer, too. I'm a professional. I expect them to be also.

The rest is just common sense.

isellhondas · January 2015

Even if I knew how to spam someone I wouldn't. not even Fezo!

papichris · January 2015

Enjoyed the story....esp the comment about 'tuna boats' lol. My first car was a two door, blue 1977 Olds Ninety-Eight....had the 403 in it...what a great runner.

fezo · January 2015

isellhondas said:
Even if I knew how to spam someone I wouldn't. not even Fezo!

Take it with the grain of salt that went with it.

I think it's safe to say we all know you wouldn't spam. We have a pretty good idea of each other.

I'm really beginning to worry about Mike.

cdnpinhead · January 2015

I'm really beginning to worry about Mike.

Yeah, and we haven't heard from Richard in a c**n's age (no capitalization, therefore no political content -- hah, guess again - it was edited the first time) either. I really miss hearing from Richard.

stever · January 2015

imidazol97 said:
As I read you post, it says "spam click." If one of us sees a questionable post, does that mean just clicking the "flag" button is enough, or is an email to a host called for?

Flagging the post should be enough, although sometimes we forget to regularly check the spam queue. @ray80, I didn't notice a spam report from you this morning; most likely Kirstie or someone else got it before I got up. But if it's still there, shoot me an email so we can check it out.

Isell got picked on, I think, because of some links to cars he found for that guy with the wrecked Camry that the system didn't like. That should be fixed "permanently" (famous last words...).

@graphicguy, I came close to buying a used Matrix one time (it was black so I kept looking) and a new Vibe (it was so base it had crank windows that I couldn't deal with). The Matrix was a hoot on the test drive - wound up in one with an exceptionally nice shifter.

I did a lot of shopping 9 months ago and dealt with six or eight salespeople. And a few by email. The Kia guy in "Northern" Michigan (i.e., below the bridge) that I only corresponded with was terrific - his counterpart here in Las Cruces was awful and apparently the store's reputation is just like the email encounter I had. The meatspace salespeople, mostly in Madison WI, were all good. One was too green to be helpful, and one Subaru guy who mostly handled the used cars was a bit old school, but the rest were really upfront with the numbers. Word is mostly getting around, and buyers are getting better educated all the time too.

imidazol97 · January 2015

Has anyone shopped lightbulbs lately? LEDs of various types and uses. CFL of various types and uses. Reduced wattage incandescents called eco friendly, i.e., a 100 watt bulb supposedly that actually uses 72 watts. I forgot about checking the lumens of output, but I'll bet it matches 72 Watts rather than 1600 lumens for 100 watt bulbs.

Then there's the various temperatures which give various colors of output: warm white, soft white, daylight, and some others I've forgotten. The 3 majors here (Lowes, Home Depot, and Menards) each market them differently on their shelves. Then there are the various configurations of how the light is emitted as far as the directions of coverage.

It's like trying to compare automobiles with options when shopping. Or like comparing computer capabilities between various motherboards and CPUs without being able to reference the hardware analysis pages available on the net.

I need a bulb that hands upside down (base above the glass) in a kitchen pendant fixture that's frosted glass with a bulb that puts out much of it's light upward so it bounces off the white ceiling and gives softer illumination. Most LEDs are somewhat directional and emit upward from their base. LEDs are large (100 watt equivalent needed) and the bulb would hang out below the skirt of the glass of the pendant. Wife doesn't like appearance of curly fluorescents--it ruins the country ambiance of the hanging light.

Fixture somewhat like this:

LED bulb about double size of incandescent

qbrozen · January 2015

i like the "warm" LEDs for output, but can't help you with the directional issues.

imidazol97 · January 2015

cdnpinhead said:
Yeah, and we haven't heard from Richard in a [non permissible content deleted] age ... I really miss hearing from Richard.

Richard's fine but just overworked with the several duties he took on a few months before Christmas.
I hope his work level will lighten and he'll have time to post occasionally.

stickguy · January 2015

I'm afraid to shop light bulbs. When my hoard of old fashioned ones runs out we will just sit in the dark.

Richard popped in recently to say hi. Busy guy. Loves his truck.

I'm also worried that something happened to mike. Some local should run over and check on him (only half kidding)

driver100 · January 2015

graphicguy said:

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:

stever said:

karhill1 said:
After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."
High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's ~~amazing~~ depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.
Stever.....the biggest and best tool a buyer has when trying to buy a car are his or her feet. I've used that tool more than once. I've heard "if you can buy the car for the offer you're making, better snatch it up". A few days later when the sales person follows up and calls me, I inform them I took their advice and snatched the car up.

Everyone is afraid that the only way to get a good deal is to play the "bump and grind" game. First time you do your research, make your offer (and no, the dealer won't make a deal if he's losing money) and you're in and out of the dealership in record time, you won't go back to trying to spending inordinate amount of time trying to make a deal.

There was a long time poster here by the nickname of "bobst". He did the same thing. I tried his method of making one offer (IIRC it was for a Pontiac Vibe I was buying as a 2nd car). I looked at Edmunds invoice, looked at incentives, looked at stock levels. I made an offer that was invoice, minus incentives, plus $50, plus tax, title, tags. First dealer wanted to bump me. I walked. 2nd dealer asked if I were buying right now. I informed him I was. We made the deal in 5 minutes.

Couple days later, first dealer called me and countered me with an offer that was still #300 higher than what I paid, with the instruction that I had to come in that night to get the deal as it would be gone tomorrow. I informed him I already made a deal at my original offer.

I've stuck to that way of buying cars ever since.

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?
The thing that I don't understand in your post GG is....you bought a Pontiac Vibe?

Just joking...had to do that.

But, just what if you calculated wrong, give your price.....Here's my trade, here is what I'll pay for the new car........and this is exactly what I will pay all in or I am walking out the door.

And the car maker has just reduced prices that day, or the dealer needs to sell a car that day to make a quota.
What if the dealer would have sold you the car for $500 less just for some unknown reason?

That's why I want to hear his price too. Also, by hearing his price I get an idea how honest he is. When I talked to a salesman about a Honda Fit for my friend he gave me a price, it included a dealer discount of $500 and if he bought by the end of the week he would get a Honda discount of $500. My friend may have haggled for another $100 off but Honda won't vear from these prices by much...maybe throw in floor mats or something. I may have misjudged, walked in and said I want $700 off the MSRP or I am walking, and lose $300!

I'd rather get a sense of where and who I am dealing with....so I let them come up with a price. In fact, I am thinking some time I just may say, you tell me what it will cost for me to buy a new car, I have done all my homework, and if it isn't right on I am leaving.

Great vehicle.....good MPG. slow as a snail, noisy as hell on the highway, but rock solid in all types of weather. Several months after the divorce, I wandered back into the dating scene. Just a wee bit embarrassed to pick her up in the VIBE, but none of my other cars were running.

Took it to Chicago from Cincinnati in a snow storm. It came through with flying colors. Trying to do 70 MPH all the way made my ears ring for a few hours it was so loud, but it made it without incident.

GG, Thanks for the background on how you ended up with a Vibe. Actually if you pick up a first date in a Vibe and she is willing to go out with you a second time you know you got a winner.

driver100 · January 2015

sandman_6472 said:
My first Toyota was a 1988 Corolla FX, small two door hatch but very reasonably priced at the time. A bit bare bones if you will but it worked for us since we had just bought the current casa and had 3 under the age of 3. Impressive mileage for my daily commute and it fit in the garage very comfortably, like the current Golf does. Kept it for almost 9 years and was super reliable when Toyota was at its peak. My new Golf reminds me of it as it has the same goodness and fun to drive quality!!

The Sandman

Your Golf has won a lot of awards this year, including the best of the best award in Canada...and it won against the new Mustang and Porsche Macon. It is supposed to be a bleast to drive.

Hope they get the tires sorted out....then you can really enjoy your new car.

ab348 · January 2015

fezo said:

I'm really beginning to worry about Mike.

His profile says he was active at 8:52 this morning. Maybe he's just mad at us.

stickguy · January 2015

well, that is good if he is on. Unless of course he just never logged out!

Sandy, can't wait for the latest update in your saga. I am still sorry sometimes I didn't just go with a Golf instead. Even if the wife thought it was too small! Next time, maybe I go small. Or more likely, the wife decides she wants the new car, I inherit the RDX, and if there is any $$ left, I finally get a toy!

Michaell · January 2015

stickguy said:
well, that is good if he is on. Unless of course he just never logged out!

Sandy, can't wait for the latest update in your saga. I am still sorry sometimes I didn't just go with a Golf instead. Even if the wife thought it was too small! Next time, maybe I go small. Or more likely, the wife decides she wants the new car, I inherit the RDX, and if there is any $$ left, I finally get a toy!

That sounds good.

I'm already thinking about what to do when the lease on the E-GT is up in November 2016. If I'm still doing pizza duty, I'd like to get a cheap beater with AWD (Subaru, Suzuki SX4, Vibe/Matrix AWD). Pay cash and keep it running for as long as I need it.

Then, decide on something fun - GTI, perhaps.

I dunno - too many things can (and will) happen between now and then. Wife is (finally!) looking at job postings in warmer climates. One in Atlanta, another in Santa Fe, NM (though that isn't much better than what we have now).

oldfarmer50 · January 2015

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:

stever said:

karhill1 said:
After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."
High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's ~~amazing~~ depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.
Stever.....the biggest and best tool a buyer has when trying to buy a car are his or her feet. I've used that tool more than once. I've heard "if you can buy the car for the offer you're making, better snatch it up". A few days later when the sales person follows up and calls me, I inform them I took their advice and snatched the car up.

Everyone is afraid that the only way to get a good deal is to play the "bump and grind" game. First time you do your research, make your offer (and no, the dealer won't make a deal if he's losing money) and you're in and out of the dealership in record time, you won't go back to trying to spending inordinate amount of time trying to make a deal.

There was a long time poster here by the nickname of "bobst". He did the same thing. I tried his method of making one offer (IIRC it was for a Pontiac Vibe I was buying as a 2nd car). I looked at Edmunds invoice, looked at incentives, looked at stock levels. I made an offer that was invoice, minus incentives, plus $50, plus tax, title, tags. First dealer wanted to bump me. I walked. 2nd dealer asked if I were buying right now. I informed him I was. We made the deal in 5 minutes.

Couple days later, first dealer called me and countered me with an offer that was still #300 higher than what I paid, with the instruction that I had to come in that night to get the deal as it would be gone tomorrow. I informed him I already made a deal at my original offer.

I've stuck to that way of buying cars ever since.

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?
The thing that I don't understand in your post GG is....you bought a Pontiac Vibe?

Just joking...had to do that.

But, just what if you calculated wrong, give your price.....Here's my trade, here is what I'll pay for the new car........and this is exactly what I will pay all in or I am walking out the door.

And the car maker has just reduced prices that day, or the dealer needs to sell a car that day to make a quota.
What if the dealer would have sold you the car for $500 less just for some unknown reason?

That's why I want to hear his price too. Also, by hearing his price I get an idea how honest he is. When I talked to a salesman about a Honda Fit for my friend he gave me a price, it included a dealer discount of $500 and if he bought by the end of the week he would get a Honda discount of $500. My friend may have haggled for another $100 off but Honda won't vear from these prices by much...maybe throw in floor mats or something. I may have misjudged, walked in and said I want $700 off the MSRP or I am walking, and lose $300!

I'd rather get a sense of where and who I am dealing with....so I let them come up with a price. In fact, I am thinking some time I just may say, you tell me what it will cost for me to buy a new car, I have done all my homework, and if it isn't right on I am leaving.

That's kind of the way I think too. But didn't someone on these forums once say that the person who makes the first offer is the loser? Why would a salesperson give you his best price right off when he could bump yours? I always liked the "bobst" method but it's tough to walk when you have car hot pants.

oldfarmer50 · January 2015

js06gv said:
I had forgotten about Bruce Williams and how much I used to enjoy his show so I googled too. Found he came back on in 2012 and left again in 2013. There are archived podcasts here. Listening to one right now. http://www.brucewilliams.com/about_bruce.html

That picture someone posted doesn't jive with the mental image I had of him. Use to listen to him on the radio during long drives on the job back in the 80s.

Say how are you liking your new Mustang? The one I drove seemed almost too quiet for a GT. I was wondering if I would have to install custom mufflers to get the proper sound.

Sandman6472 · January 2015

Problem solved and I am happy...VW stepped up to the plate!!! Full story when I get some more time. And yes, still have the Golf!!!

The Sandman

ray80 · January 2015

sandman_6472 said:
Problem solved and I am happy...VW stepped up to the plate!!! Full story when I get some more time. And yes, still have the Golf!!!

The Sandman

Sounds good

stickguy · January 2015

must just be new wheels and tires swapped on and sent on your way. Though on the other thread I guessed they gave you a new unit.

in any case, glad it worked out. now enjoy your car.

houdini1 · January 2015

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:

stever said:

karhill1 said:
After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."
High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's ~~amazing~~ depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.
Stever.....the biggest and best tool a buyer has when trying to buy a car are his or her feet. I've used that tool more than once. I've heard "if you can buy the car for the offer you're making, better snatch it up". A few days later when the sales person follows up and calls me, I inform them I took their advice and snatched the car up.

Everyone is afraid that the only way to get a good deal is to play the "bump and grind" game. First time you do your research, make your offer (and no, the dealer won't make a deal if he's losing money) and you're in and out of the dealership in record time, you won't go back to trying to spending inordinate amount of time trying to make a deal.

There was a long time poster here by the nickname of "bobst". He did the same thing. I tried his method of making one offer (IIRC it was for a Pontiac Vibe I was buying as a 2nd car). I looked at Edmunds invoice, looked at incentives, looked at stock levels. I made an offer that was invoice, minus incentives, plus $50, plus tax, title, tags. First dealer wanted to bump me. I walked. 2nd dealer asked if I were buying right now. I informed him I was. We made the deal in 5 minutes.

Couple days later, first dealer called me and countered me with an offer that was still #300 higher than what I paid, with the instruction that I had to come in that night to get the deal as it would be gone tomorrow. I informed him I already made a deal at my original offer.

I've stuck to that way of buying cars ever since.

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?
The thing that I don't understand in your post GG is....you bought a Pontiac Vibe?

Just joking...had to do that.

But, just what if you calculated wrong, give your price.....Here's my trade, here is what I'll pay for the new car........and this is exactly what I will pay all in or I am walking out the door.

And the car maker has just reduced prices that day, or the dealer needs to sell a car that day to make a quota.
What if the dealer would have sold you the car for $500 less just for some unknown reason?

That's why I want to hear his price too. Also, by hearing his price I get an idea how honest he is. When I talked to a salesman about a Honda Fit for my friend he gave me a price, it included a dealer discount of $500 and if he bought by the end of the week he would get a Honda discount of $500. My friend may have haggled for another $100 off but Honda won't vear from these prices by much...maybe throw in floor mats or something. I may have misjudged, walked in and said I want $700 off the MSRP or I am walking, and lose $300!

I'd rather get a sense of where and who I am dealing with....so I let them come up with a price. In fact, I am thinking some time I just may say, you tell me what it will cost for me to buy a new car, I have done all my homework, and if it isn't right on I am leaving.

That's kind of the way I think too. But didn't someone on these forums once say that the person who makes the first offer is the loser? Why would a salesperson give you his best price right off when he could bump yours? I always liked the "bobst" method but it's tough to walk when you have car hot pants.

Yes, that is a problem. One big advantage the salesperson has is that you came to him, he didn't come to you, That is why, when possible, I start looking at cars while I am in for service so I can pretend to be "just looking"...pretty sure isell could see right thru me !

explorerx4 · January 2015

When the topic of buying what you thought was AWD but got a 2WD, it got me thinking.
During my Escape search, I filtered on 4WD/AWD, but you never know.
I just assumed it was AWD. It felt like it when I drove it. I'll have to check the paperwork when I drive it tomorrow.
Did miss that it did not have a reverse camera or sensors, so I could have missed other things.
It did drive like an AWD vehicle, so I'm pretty sure I'm ok.
I know it is a local car, because when I went to the FM stations, I didn't have to change any of them.
Got some contract paperwork from my credit union. They have the contract rate as 2.44%, but my dealer paperwork lists 2.24%. The payment works out @2.24%.
The dealer also owes me some money because they wrote up the contract for new plates, but I transfered them from the Explorer. Instead of rewriting everything, they said the will cut me a check. I'll trust them for that.

Going in, I figured if they dropped the price of the Escape 1000 and gave me 1500 for my Explorer, I do the deal.
Their asking price was up to 1900 less than the same vehicles for sale at the other dealers I was going to look at.
Negotiations went like this:
We'll take a thousand off the Escape and give you fifteen hundred for your Explorer.
Told the salesman, 'Those are my numbers, we have a deal'.

driver100 · January 2015

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:

stever said:

karhill1 said:
After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."
High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's ~~amazing~~ depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.
Stever.....the biggest and best tool a buyer has when trying to buy a car are his or her feet. I've used that tool more than once. I've heard "if you can buy the car for the offer you're making, better snatch it up". A few days later when the sales person follows up and calls me, I inform them I took their advice and snatched the car up.

Everyone is afraid that the only way to get a good deal is to play the "bump and grind" game. First time you do your research, make your offer (and no, the dealer won't make a deal if he's losing money) and you're in and out of the dealership in record time, you won't go back to trying to spending inordinate amount of time trying to make a deal.

There was a long time poster here by the nickname of "bobst". He did the same thing. I tried his method of making one offer (IIRC it was for a Pontiac Vibe I was buying as a 2nd car). I looked at Edmunds invoice, looked at incentives, looked at stock levels. I made an offer that was invoice, minus incentives, plus $50, plus tax, title, tags. First dealer wanted to bump me. I walked. 2nd dealer asked if I were buying right now. I informed him I was. We made the deal in 5 minutes.

Couple days later, first dealer called me and countered me with an offer that was still #300 higher than what I paid, with the instruction that I had to come in that night to get the deal as it would be gone tomorrow. I informed him I already made a deal at my original offer.

I've stuck to that way of buying cars ever since.

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?
The thing that I don't understand in your post GG is....you bought a Pontiac Vibe?

Just joking...had to do that.

But, just what if you calculated wrong, give your price.....Here's my trade, here is what I'll pay for the new car........and this is exactly what I will pay all in or I am walking out the door.

And the car maker has just reduced prices that day, or the dealer needs to sell a car that day to make a quota.
What if the dealer would have sold you the car for $500 less just for some unknown reason?

That's why I want to hear his price too. Also, by hearing his price I get an idea how honest he is. When I talked to a salesman about a Honda Fit for my friend he gave me a price, it included a dealer discount of $500 and if he bought by the end of the week he would get a Honda discount of $500. My friend may have haggled for another $100 off but Honda won't vear from these prices by much...maybe throw in floor mats or something. I may have misjudged, walked in and said I want $700 off the MSRP or I am walking, and lose $300!

I'd rather get a sense of where and who I am dealing with....so I let them come up with a price. In fact, I am thinking some time I just may say, you tell me what it will cost for me to buy a new car, I have done all my homework, and if it isn't right on I am leaving.

That's kind of the way I think too. But didn't someone on these forums once say that the person who makes the first offer is the loser? Why would a salesperson give you his best price right off when he could bump yours? I always liked the "bobst" method but it's tough to walk when you have car hot pants.

That is an excellent rule, " the person who makes the first offer is the loser?"

If the buyer says, I have done my homework, and I know what my trade is worth, and I know what the new car is worth, and I am willing to pay that amount. If you want to sell me a car, I want you (the salesperson) to give me a price that is right on my number, if you miss then I will walk out.

What would happen? At least you might just get a lower price then you calculated. You have nothing to lose doing it this way.

I did a variation on it. I knew the value of my trade in and they came up with the exact figure I calculated. I thought about trying for more, but, decided they seem pretty honest so far, why ruin a good thing. Then he gave me the full MSRP for the new car. I said bmw and Audi gave me 4% off and I will do the deal if you match that. The salesman did hesitate, but, I think he realized I wasn't fooling around and I knew what I was doing.

I am sloppy at figures though, so I could miscalculate. That's why I would rather hear their number first.

venture · January 2015

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:

stever said:

karhill1 said:
After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."
High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's ~~amazing~~ depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.
Stever.....the biggest and best tool a buyer has when trying to buy a car are his or her feet. I've used that tool more than once. I've heard "if you can buy the car for the offer you're making, better snatch it up". A few days later when the sales person follows up and calls me, I inform them I took their advice and snatched the car up.

Everyone is afraid that the only way to get a good deal is to play the "bump and grind" game. First time you do your research, make your offer (and no, the dealer won't make a deal if he's losing money) and you're in and out of the dealership in record time, you won't go back to trying to spending inordinate amount of time trying to make a deal.

There was a long time poster here by the nickname of "bobst". He did the same thing. I tried his method of making one offer (IIRC it was for a Pontiac Vibe I was buying as a 2nd car). I looked at Edmunds invoice, looked at incentives, looked at stock levels. I made an offer that was invoice, minus incentives, plus $50, plus tax, title, tags. First dealer wanted to bump me. I walked. 2nd dealer asked if I were buying right now. I informed him I was. We made the deal in 5 minutes.

Couple days later, first dealer called me and countered me with an offer that was still #300 higher than what I paid, with the instruction that I had to come in that night to get the deal as it would be gone tomorrow. I informed him I already made a deal at my original offer.

I've stuck to that way of buying cars ever since.

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?
The thing that I don't understand in your post GG is....you bought a Pontiac Vibe?

Just joking...had to do that.

But, just what if you calculated wrong, give your price.....Here's my trade, here is what I'll pay for the new car........and this is exactly what I will pay all in or I am walking out the door.

And the car maker has just reduced prices that day, or the dealer needs to sell a car that day to make a quota.
What if the dealer would have sold you the car for $500 less just for some unknown reason?

That's why I want to hear his price too. Also, by hearing his price I get an idea how honest he is. When I talked to a salesman about a Honda Fit for my friend he gave me a price, it included a dealer discount of $500 and if he bought by the end of the week he would get a Honda discount of $500. My friend may have haggled for another $100 off but Honda won't vear from these prices by much...maybe throw in floor mats or something. I may have misjudged, walked in and said I want $700 off the MSRP or I am walking, and lose $300!

I'd rather get a sense of where and who I am dealing with....so I let them come up with a price. In fact, I am thinking some time I just may say, you tell me what it will cost for me to buy a new car, I have done all my homework, and if it isn't right on I am leaving.

That's kind of the way I think too. But didn't someone on these forums once say that the person who makes the first offer is the loser? Why would a salesperson give you his best price right off when he could bump yours? I always liked the "bobst" method but it's tough to walk when you have car hot pants.
That is an excellent rule, " the person who makes the first offer is the loser?"

If the buyer says, I have done my homework, and I know what my trade is worth, and I know what the new car is worth, and I am willing to pay that amount. If you want to sell me a car, I want you (the salesperson) to give me a price that is right on my number, if you miss then I will walk out.

What would happen? At least you might just get a lower price then you calculated. You have nothing to lose doing it this way.

I did a variation on it. I knew the value of my trade in and they came up with the exact figure I calculated. I thought about trying for more, but, decided they seem pretty honest so far, why ruin a good thing. Then he gave me the full MSRP for the new car. I said bmw and Audi gave me 4% off and I will do the deal if you match that. The salesman did hesitate, but, I think he realized I wasn't fooling around and I knew what I was doing.

I am sloppy at figures though, so I could miscalculate. That's why I would rather hear their number first.

When I bought my wife's Forester a few weeks ago I knew what I wanted for her trade, but I asked them what they would give me for it. They stated a figure $100 more then I would have asked for if I went first.

driver100 · January 2015

venture said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:

stever said:

karhill1 said:
After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."
High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's ~~amazing~~ depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.
Stever.....the biggest and best tool a buyer has when trying to buy a car are his or her feet. I've used that tool more than once. I've heard "if you can buy the car for the offer you're making, better snatch it up". A few days later when the sales person follows up and calls me, I inform them I took their advice and snatched the car up.

Everyone is afraid that the only way to get a good deal is to play the "bump and grind" game. First time you do your research, make your offer (and no, the dealer won't make a deal if he's losing money) and you're in and out of the dealership in record time, you won't go back to trying to spending inordinate amount of time trying to make a deal.

There was a long time poster here by the nickname of "bobst". He did the same thing. I tried his method of making one offer (IIRC it was for a Pontiac Vibe I was buying as a 2nd car). I looked at Edmunds invoice, looked at incentives, looked at stock levels. I made an offer that was invoice, minus incentives, plus $50, plus tax, title, tags. First dealer wanted to bump me. I walked. 2nd dealer asked if I were buying right now. I informed him I was. We made the deal in 5 minutes.

Couple days later, first dealer called me and countered me with an offer that was still #300 higher than what I paid, with the instruction that I had to come in that night to get the deal as it would be gone tomorrow. I informed him I already made a deal at my original offer.

I've stuck to that way of buying cars ever since.

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?
The thing that I don't understand in your post GG is....you bought a Pontiac Vibe?

Just joking...had to do that.

But, just what if you calculated wrong, give your price.....Here's my trade, here is what I'll pay for the new car........and this is exactly what I will pay all in or I am walking out the door.

And the car maker has just reduced prices that day, or the dealer needs to sell a car that day to make a quota.
What if the dealer would have sold you the car for $500 less just for some unknown reason?

That's why I want to hear his price too. Also, by hearing his price I get an idea how honest he is. When I talked to a salesman about a Honda Fit for my friend he gave me a price, it included a dealer discount of $500 and if he bought by the end of the week he would get a Honda discount of $500. My friend may have haggled for another $100 off but Honda won't vear from these prices by much...maybe throw in floor mats or something. I may have misjudged, walked in and said I want $700 off the MSRP or I am walking, and lose $300!

I'd rather get a sense of where and who I am dealing with....so I let them come up with a price. In fact, I am thinking some time I just may say, you tell me what it will cost for me to buy a new car, I have done all my homework, and if it isn't right on I am leaving.

That's kind of the way I think too. But didn't someone on these forums once say that the person who makes the first offer is the loser? Why would a salesperson give you his best price right off when he could bump yours? I always liked the "bobst" method but it's tough to walk when you have car hot pants.
That is an excellent rule, " the person who makes the first offer is the loser?"

If the buyer says, I have done my homework, and I know what my trade is worth, and I know what the new car is worth, and I am willing to pay that amount. If you want to sell me a car, I want you (the salesperson) to give me a price that is right on my number, if you miss then I will walk out.

What would happen? At least you might just get a lower price then you calculated. You have nothing to lose doing it this way.

I did a variation on it. I knew the value of my trade in and they came up with the exact figure I calculated. I thought about trying for more, but, decided they seem pretty honest so far, why ruin a good thing. Then he gave me the full MSRP for the new car. I said bmw and Audi gave me 4% off and I will do the deal if you match that. The salesman did hesitate, but, I think he realized I wasn't fooling around and I knew what I was doing.

I am sloppy at figures though, so I could miscalculate. That's why I would rather hear their number first.

When I bought my wife's Forester a few weeks ago I knew what I wanted for her trade, but I asked them what they would give me for it. They stated a figure $100 more then I would have asked for if I went first.

Interesting! That's exactly why I think it is better to hear what the salesman comes up with....after you tell him this better be good! I don't see why you would tell them what you want for your trade in before they give you an amount. I like to do it on the new one as well. It will take me a bit longer, but I may get a better price.

When we traded in my wifes 2008 335 the bmw dealer would only give us $20k for her trade in, and I expected $24k. So, we left. I went to the Audi dealer, the manager took it for a spin, said he would give us $24k for it, right up front. Now that's the kind of guy I like to deal with.

He told me the price of the A4, which was a shock because it was $11k less than a 328. I had to hide my shock, we were going to get a car we liked better for $11k less. Then I said bmw was going to give me 4% off so if you match that we have a deal. He said he thought that would work and it did. It was all very civilized, and if I had guessed at the price of the Audi I thought it would be much closer to the 328.

graphicguy · January 2015

driver...there does seem to be a difference between high(er) end dealers compared to shopping at the local Chevy, Ford or Honda store. The higher end stores don't seem to want to play the negotiation game any more than we do....at least most of the ones I've been to.

I personally don't feel I need to do any more negotiation given the amount of research I do upfront on the cars I buy, and the deals I'm willing to make. I enjoy it, but it takes hours to do the research. Last thing I want is to spin my wheels at the dealership playing the bump and grind for an hour or more.

I mentioned a grinder Cadillac store in previous posts (the dealer who thinks red wheels will see their wares). There's another high end dealer that I was surprised to play the high pressure game.

This was when I was helping my sister buy her Benz. Maybe it was the sales person we had, but he was all about how "hot" his cars were, how well they were selling, better buy today or the car you want may be gone. Funny, because we were looking at the C Class, and looking out the huge front glass windows, we could see probably 30 new C Class of every color parked in his lot. Didn't look scarce to us.

He then asked what we wanted our payment to be (didn't even want to know if we were leasing or buying...just what payment we wanted). My sister didn't even bother to tell him she was a cash buyer. She knew she wasn't buying anything from him.

Funny thing is, the same owner has another Benz dealer about 10 miles from where we were originally. The shopping experience couldn't have been more different. The other dealer was helpful, willing to find out what my sister wanted, brought us refreshments, etc.

Then, there was the new Benz dealer about 30 miles away, in KY, no less. They are the upstarts, willing to beat any deal from all comers.

Knowing these types of things, about dealers, helps me make my one offer. For example, if I'm ever in the market for an Audi again (doubtful, but you never know), I know I can't make a skinny deal at either of the closest Audi dealers near me. So, I won't bother even trying.

I don't mind throwing out the first and only offer....matter of fact, I prefer it that way. We get right to the chase that way. I've never been positively surprised by any deal a dealer threw at me first.....NEVER! It's always been quite the opposite. I'm always underwhelmed by the dealers' offers.

It doesn't work for everyone, but I've never been disappointed by any deal I made making the one offer.

Farmer...."Car Hot Pants"? LOL!

As an aside, trade ins are a whole layer of uncertainty with any trade. There used to be a guy here who either owned his own dealership (used, I think) and would take an inordinate amount of time posting what ended up being very accurate trade values to anyone who asked. Shame he's no longer around, but he was really, really good. I depended on him for a couple of used car quotes.

Now, I look in the newspaper, on ebay, at the local lots, NADA, Kelly, call my bank to get Black Book evaluations, to get a trade value. It's a little black magic, depending on the dealership (likely a Mercedes Dealer can put a Mustang on his lot and expect a quick sale), and the time of year, but I can get relatively close to a trade value both the dealer and I can live with.

Michaell · January 2015

graphicguy said:
driver...there does seem to be a difference between high(er) end dealers compared to shopping at the local Chevy, Ford or Honda store. The higher end stores don't seem to want to play the negotiation game any more than we do....at least most of the ones I've been to.

I personally don't feel I need to do any more negotiation given the amount of research I do upfront on the cars I buy, and the deals I'm willing to make. I enjoy it, but it takes hours to do the research. Last thing I want is to spin my wheels at the dealership playing the bump and grind for an hour or more.

I mentioned a grinder Cadillac store in previous posts (the dealer who thinks red wheels will see their wares). There's another high end dealer that I was surprised to play the high pressure game.

This was when I was helping my sister buy her Benz. Maybe it was the sales person we had, but he was all about how "hot" his cars were, how well they were selling, better buy today or the car you want may be gone. Funny, because we were looking at the C Class, and looking out the huge front glass windows, we could see probably 30 new C Class of every color parked in his lot. Didn't look scarce to us.

He then asked what we wanted our payment to be (didn't even want to know if we were leasing or buying...just what payment we wanted). My sister didn't even bother to tell him she was a cash buyer. She knew she wasn't buying anything from him.

Funny thing is, the same owner has another Benz dealer about 10 miles from where we were originally. The shopping experience couldn't have been more different. The other dealer was helpful, willing to find out what my sister wanted, brought us refreshments, etc.

Then, there was the new Benz dealer about 30 miles away, in KY, no less. They are the upstarts, willing to beat any deal from all comers.

Knowing these types of things, about dealers, helps me make my one offer. For example, if I'm ever in the market for an Audi again (doubtful, but you never know), I know I can't make a skinny deal at either of the closest Audi dealers near me. So, I won't bother even trying.

I don't mind throwing out the first and only offer....matter of fact, I prefer it that way. We get right to the chase that way. I've never been positively surprised by any deal a dealer threw at me first.....NEVER! It's always been quite the opposite. I'm always underwhelmed by the dealers' offers.

It doesn't work for everyone, but I've never been disappointed by any deal I made making the one offer.

Farmer...."Car Hot Pants"? LOL!

As an aside, trade ins are a whole layer of uncertainty with any trade. There used to be a guy here who either owned his own dealership (used, I think) and would take an inordinate amount of time posting what ended up being very accurate trade values to anyone who asked. Shame he's no longer around, but he was really, really good. I depended on him for a couple of used car quotes.

Now, I look in the newspaper, on ebay, at the local lots, NADA, Kelly, call my bank to get Black Book evaluations, to get a trade value. It's a little black magic, depending on the dealership (likely a Mercedes Dealer can put a Mustang on his lot and expect a quick sale), and the time of year, but I can get relatively close to a trade value both the dealer and I can live with.

@graphicguy‌ - the "Real World Trade in Values" discussion is alive and well. "brentwood" was the guy you're thinking of who worked in the business (in fact, @fezo bought his wife's Camry from him a few years back). Now @qbrozen‌ is answering the questions. He helped last year when we traded in our daughter's 2010 MINI for a 2014 Countryman - he thought the trade was worth $11.5-12K and the dealer hit it at $12K on the nose.

qbrozen · January 2015

and let's not forget Terry. He owned a string of dealerships.

driver100 · January 2015

graphicguy said:
driver...there does seem to be a difference between high(er) end dealers compared to shopping at the local Chevy, Ford or Honda store. The higher end stores don't seem to want to play the negotiation game any more than we do....at least most of the ones I've been to.

GG, I think you are right in that when we bought the A4, they gave me what I wanted for the trade in immediately. He reduced the new car by 4% right away. I said, that was easy. The salesman said, our dealership is in a high income area. We are selling cars to business people and they know the value of cars. If I play games they walk.

My old bmw dealer is in the same area. They have a different strategy, they think these people don't mind paying more for the convenience of buying close to home. We make 2 or 3X the profit on each car, but we make a good profit. Plus, their service department is the best around, and that's where the real money is.

It is a fact, not only do you need to be well armed before entering the arena, you need to know what kind of dealer you are facing.

My MB dealer was the hardnosed high profit no negotiating type of dealer. Now, with new owners they have become the friendlier straight forward lets make a deal kind of dealership.

abacomike · January 2015

ab348 said:

I'm really beginning to worry about Mike.
His profile says he was active at 8:52 this morning. Maybe he's just mad at us.

I just got home from the hospital - Mike isn't mad at anyone. My back went out and caused me serious pain down my right hip and down to my ankle. Pain was intense. I am lying in bed now with ice on my back - I alternate heat with cold, per my doctor. The heat seems to relieve the pain more.

As for my profile showing I was "active" earlier this morning, I don't see how that could be. I haven't logged on in quite a while.

Thanks for worrying about my absence from the site. Couldn't help it.

isellhondas · January 2015

So, now we can't say "raccoon"?

driver100 · January 2015

I just got home from the hospital - Mike isn't mad at anyone. My back went out and caused me serious pain down my right hip and down to my ankle

..

Glad to hear you are back....we were worried. We had a pool going as to what kind of car you were looking at.
Hope you get better fast.

btw...".Mike isn't mad at anyone.", I get concerned when I see people talking about themselves in the 3rd person.

driver100 · January 2015

My IT friend who leased a Honda Fit for $290 a month hasn't picked up his car yet.

A friend of his suggested he put the $4500 from the insurance money down on the lease and his payments would be about $100 a month.

Because of the things you guys said I advised him against doing that. The main reason is that if the car is stolen or totalled he could lose all or a portion of that money. The other thing is it would be difficult to write off that amount against his business expenses for tax purposes.

He agreed and stayed with the $0 down.

stever · January 2015

imidazol97 said:
As I read you post, it says "spam click." If one of us sees a questionable post, does that mean just clicking the "flag" button is enough, or is an email to a host called for?

Okay, turns out that the software setting isn't set up like I thought it was. It takes more than one flag to get a mod's attention. So please just email me if you see some spam and we'll get to it faster. Thanks (you too @ray80).

Oh, and the last login stuff from Mike - I saw that too. Wonder if it's related to the computer waking up or an automatic Windows update loading or something. Lots of us never log off here so something resetting on your own device could update your Last Active time. Dunno, but the software is working so much better than the last stuff, we hate to tweak too much and break something.

qbrozen · January 2015

driver100 said:
My IT friend who leased a Honda Fit for $290 a month hasn't picked up his car yet.

A friend of his suggested he put the $4500 from the insurance money down on the lease and his payments would be about $100 a month.

Because of the things you guys said I advised him against doing that. The main reason is that if the car is stolen or totalled he could lose all or a portion of that money. The other thing is it would be difficult to write off that amount against his business expenses for tax purposes.

He agreed and stayed with the $0 down.

Which version did he get? Hell, I was at $3k down and $260/mo for 60 mos to BUY it. That was an LX, though, and I believe you said it is a more expensive vehicle in Canada? What would his purchase payment have been.

Not for nothin, but I disagree with the whole "don't put anything down or you lose that money" because it makes no sense to think that way for a lease but not a purchase. You put down as much as you can on a purchase, right? Well, the same depreciation rules apply, yet, for some reason, nobody thinks about that. I dunno. I seem to be alone on that viewpoint.

verdugo · January 2015

abacomike said:

ab348 said:

fezo said:

I'm really beginning to worry about Mike.

His profile says he was active at 8:52 this morning. Maybe he's just mad at us.

I just got home from the hospital - Mike isn't mad at anyone. My back went out and caused me serious pain down my right hip and down to my ankle. Pain was intense. I am lying in bed now with ice on my back - I alternate heat with cold, per my doctor. The heat seems to relieve the pain more.

As for my profile showing I was "active" earlier this morning, I don't see how that could be. I haven't logged on in quite a while.

Thanks for worrying about my absence from the site. Couldn't help it.

Glad to have you back. Take it easy and get well soon!

verdugo · January 2015

oldfarmer50 said:

That's kind of the way I think too. But didn't someone on these forums once say that the person who makes the first offer is the loser? Why would a salesperson give you his best price right off when he could bump yours? I always liked the "bobst" method but it's tough to walk when you have car hot pants.

I'm upfront with the sales person. I tell them that I don't want to play games and they have one shot only. I'm ready to buy right there and then. If I have a trade in, I ask for an OTD price. I don't care if they give me more for the trade in and sell at MSRP or viceversa. I only care about the bottom line.

I've gone to a couple of dealerships where they give me a higher price than my research would indicate so I thank them and get up. They ask me to wait while they go talk to their manager to get a better price. I say no. They had one shot.

graphicguy · January 2015

verdugo said:

oldfarmer50 said:

That's kind of the way I think too. But didn't someone on these forums once say that the person who makes the first offer is the loser? Why would a salesperson give you his best price right off when he could bump yours? I always liked the "bobst" method but it's tough to walk when you have car hot pants.
I'm upfront with the sales person. I tell them that I don't want to play games and they have one shot only. I'm ready to buy right there and then. If I have a trade in, I ask for an OTD price. I don't care if they give me more for the trade in and sell at MSRP or viceversa. I only care about the bottom line.

I've gone to a couple of dealerships where they give me a higher price than my research would indicate so I thank them and get up. They ask me to wait while they go talk to their manager to get a better price. I say no. They had one shot.

Bottom line is the bottom line. You're right. That's all that matters.

I like to put my offer on paper, with line items for Taxes, tags, title transfer. That way, there's no wiggle room once the offer is accepted. Some try to come back with "you forgot to include the required doc fee". No....no, I didn't. If they want to include it as a part of their paperwork, go ahead. My offer doesn't change.

driver100 · January 2015

qbrozen said:

driver100 said:
My IT friend who leased a Honda Fit for $290 a month hasn't picked up his car yet.

A friend of his suggested he put the $4500 from the insurance money down on the lease and his payments would be about $100 a month.

Because of the things you guys said I advised him against doing that. The main reason is that if the car is stolen or totalled he could lose all or a portion of that money. The other thing is it would be difficult to write off that amount against his business expenses for tax purposes.

He agreed and stayed with the $0 down.
Which version did he get? Hell, I was at $3k down and $260/mo for 60 mos to BUY it. That was an LX, though, and I believe you said it is a more expensive vehicle in Canada? What would his purchase payment have been.

Not for nothin, but I disagree with the whole "don't put anything down or you lose that money" because it makes no sense to think that way for a lease but not a purchase. You put down as much as you can on a purchase, right? Well, the same depreciation rules apply, yet, for some reason, nobody thinks about that. I dunno. I seem to be alone on that viewpoint.

He got one model up which is the LX. It has an MSRP price of $19048 in Canada. I saw one advertised on the TV in Florida for $16000! Brandon Florida seems to be the deal capital of the state, remember the new Taurus for $20K.

He is paying $290 a month for 48 months, with a $9000 residual. There is not much negotiating power on Hondas in Canada, maybe a few free oil changes or floor mats. Most cars cost 20% more in Canada and that was when the dollars were at par, our Cdn dollar sunk rapidly with the decrease in the price of oil. It is now at 84 cents to a US $1.

My friend and I like to owe as little as possible and to make payments more manageable, so putting a dp on a lease sounds good in theory, but because you could lose if the car is totalled or stolen, and because of tax deductions, it doesn't make sense to go that route....unless you are a gambler and lose all your dp money.

BTW....my wife said, Isn't it great, we are saving $50 a week since gas is $2 a gallon.
I said great, my stocks are down about $25000.

graphicguy · January 2015

driver100 said:

qbrozen said:

driver100 said:
My IT friend who leased a Honda Fit for $290 a month hasn't picked up his car yet.

A friend of his suggested he put the $4500 from the insurance money down on the lease and his payments would be about $100 a month.

Because of the things you guys said I advised him against doing that. The main reason is that if the car is stolen or totalled he could lose all or a portion of that money. The other thing is it would be difficult to write off that amount against his business expenses for tax purposes.

He agreed and stayed with the $0 down.
Which version did he get? Hell, I was at $3k down and $260/mo for 60 mos to BUY it. That was an LX, though, and I believe you said it is a more expensive vehicle in Canada? What would his purchase payment have been.

Not for nothin, but I disagree with the whole "don't put anything down or you lose that money" because it makes no sense to think that way for a lease but not a purchase. You put down as much as you can on a purchase, right? Well, the same depreciation rules apply, yet, for some reason, nobody thinks about that. I dunno. I seem to be alone on that viewpoint.
He got one model up which is the LX. It has an MSRP price of $19048 in Canada. I saw one advertised on the TV in Florida for $16000! Brandon Florida seems to be the deal capital of the state, remember the new Taurus for $20K.

He is paying $290 a month for 48 months, with a $9000 residual. There is not much negotiating power on Hondas in Canada, maybe a few free oil changes or floor mats. Most cars cost 20% more in Canada and that was when the dollars were at par, our Cdn dollar sunk rapidly with the decrease in the price of oil. It is now at 84 cents to a US $1.

My friend and I like to owe as little as possible and to make payments more manageable, so putting a dp on a lease sounds good in theory, but because you could lose if the car is totalled or stolen, and because of tax deductions, it doesn't make sense to go that route....unless you are a gambler and lose all your dp money.

BTW....my wife said, Isn't it great, we are saving $50 a week since gas is $2 a gallon.
I said great, my stocks are down about $25000.

you're in the wrong stocks......get out of the oil stocks.....

talking to a broker today. He was really into pushing the oil shares now, saying they're going to head upwards. As I explained to him, my theory for the last few years that oil supplies have risen while demand has either plateued or fallen. Any price increases will be temporary and short lived. There just aren't any good fundamentals supporting higher oil prices.

Layoffs will happen (as they should given the bloated state of most oil companies these days). They'll have to get lean in order to see this new reality of declining demand.

abacomike · January 2015

stever said:

As I read you post, it says "spam click." If one of us sees a questionable post, does that mean just clicking the "flag" button is enough, or is an email to a host called for?

Okay, turns out that the software setting isn't set up like I thought it was. It takes more than one flag to get a mod's attention. So please just email me if you see some spam and we'll get to it faster. Thanks (you too @ray80). Oh, and the last login stuff from Mike - I saw that too. Wonder if it's related to the computer waking up or an automatic Windows update loading or something. Lots of us never log off here so something resetting on your own device could update your Last Active time. Dunno, but the software is working so much better than the last stuff, we hate to tweak too much and break something.

My Dad goes on the computer a couple of times a day - that could be the reason. Also, I stay logged in to Edmunds on my desktop as well as my iPhone all the time, however every week or so I have to re-log in because I believe Edmunds's software boots me. It happens a couple of times a month. Remember, my cell phone is on from early in the morning until around midnight.

robr2 · January 2015

graphicguy said:

driver100 said:

qbrozen said:

driver100 said:
My IT friend who leased a Honda Fit for $290 a month hasn't picked up his car yet.

A friend of his suggested he put the $4500 from the insurance money down on the lease and his payments would be about $100 a month.

Because of the things you guys said I advised him against doing that. The main reason is that if the car is stolen or totalled he could lose all or a portion of that money. The other thing is it would be difficult to write off that amount against his business expenses for tax purposes.

He agreed and stayed with the $0 down.
Which version did he get? Hell, I was at $3k down and $260/mo for 60 mos to BUY it. That was an LX, though, and I believe you said it is a more expensive vehicle in Canada? What would his purchase payment have been.

Not for nothin, but I disagree with the whole "don't put anything down or you lose that money" because it makes no sense to think that way for a lease but not a purchase. You put down as much as you can on a purchase, right? Well, the same depreciation rules apply, yet, for some reason, nobody thinks about that. I dunno. I seem to be alone on that viewpoint.
He got one model up which is the LX. It has an MSRP price of $19048 in Canada. I saw one advertised on the TV in Florida for $16000! Brandon Florida seems to be the deal capital of the state, remember the new Taurus for $20K.

He is paying $290 a month for 48 months, with a $9000 residual. There is not much negotiating power on Hondas in Canada, maybe a few free oil changes or floor mats. Most cars cost 20% more in Canada and that was when the dollars were at par, our Cdn dollar sunk rapidly with the decrease in the price of oil. It is now at 84 cents to a US $1.

My friend and I like to owe as little as possible and to make payments more manageable, so putting a dp on a lease sounds good in theory, but because you could lose if the car is totalled or stolen, and because of tax deductions, it doesn't make sense to go that route....unless you are a gambler and lose all your dp money.

BTW....my wife said, Isn't it great, we are saving $50 a week since gas is $2 a gallon.
I said great, my stocks are down about $25000.

you're in the wrong stocks......get out of the oil stocks.....

talking to a broker today. He was really into pushing the oil shares now, saying they're going to head upwards. As I explained to him, my theory for the last few years that oil supplies have risen while demand has either plateued or fallen. Any price increases will be temporary and short lived. There just aren't any good fundamentals supporting higher oil prices.

Layoffs will happen (as they should given the bloated state of most oil companies these days). They'll have to get lean in order to see this new reality of declining demand.

All ready has. Schlumberger laid off 9000 workers in the past month due to the drop in oil prices. Many exploration companies are ending leases early on drilling rigs.

imidazol97 · January 2015

robr2 said:

talking to a broker today. He was really into pushing the oil shares now, saying they're going to head upwards. As I explained to him, my theory for the last few years that oil supplies have risen while demand has either plateued or fallen. Any price increases will be temporary and short lived. There just aren't any good fundamentals supporting higher oil prices.

When a broker is pushing it, that means the company must be holding a lot they're wanting to unload on the "little guy."

robr2 said:
Layoffs will happen (as they should given the bloated state of most oil companies these days). They'll have to get lean in order to see this new reality of declining demand.

I say just keep using the imported oil and save ours for when we need it for our military when we have been cut off from the world supply.

robr2 said:
All ready has. Schlumberger laid off 9000 workers in the past month due to the drop in oil prices. Many exploration companies are ending leases early on drilling rigs.

Didn't we shut down oil wells in the 70s or 80s and lots of people who had moved to Tx area came back to the midwest looking for jobs?

stever · January 2015

robr2 said:
Schlumberger laid off 9000 workers in the past month

Out of something like 125,000 employees globally. So it's still early days -- NM's budget is 25% dependent on oil so news like that gets a lot of attention.

Ran across this a little while ago:

"There is an old saying that goes something like this: When negotiating, the person who speaks first loses. This simply means that if you are the first one to name a price, the other party might have been ready to name an even lower price — but you'll never know that."

Negotiating Car Prices

driver100 · January 2015

graphicguy said:

driver100 said:

qbrozen said:

driver100 said:
My IT friend who leased a Honda Fit for $290 a month hasn't picked up his car yet.

A friend of his suggested he put the $4500 from the insurance money down on the lease and his payments would be about $100 a month.

Because of the things you guys said I advised him against doing that. The main reason is that if the car is stolen or totalled he could lose all or a portion of that money. The other thing is it would be difficult to write off that amount against his business expenses for tax purposes.

He agreed and stayed with the $0 down.
Which version did he get? Hell, I was at $3k down and $260/mo for 60 mos to BUY it. That was an LX, though, and I believe you said it is a more expensive vehicle in Canada? What would his purchase payment have been.

Not for nothin, but I disagree with the whole "don't put anything down or you lose that money" because it makes no sense to think that way for a lease but not a purchase. You put down as much as you can on a purchase, right? Well, the same depreciation rules apply, yet, for some reason, nobody thinks about that. I dunno. I seem to be alone on that viewpoint.
He got one model up which is the LX. It has an MSRP price of $19048 in Canada. I saw one advertised on the TV in Florida for $16000! Brandon Florida seems to be the deal capital of the state, remember the new Taurus for $20K.

He is paying $290 a month for 48 months, with a $9000 residual. There is not much negotiating power on Hondas in Canada, maybe a few free oil changes or floor mats. Most cars cost 20% more in Canada and that was when the dollars were at par, our Cdn dollar sunk rapidly with the decrease in the price of oil. It is now at 84 cents to a US $1.

My friend and I like to owe as little as possible and to make payments more manageable, so putting a dp on a lease sounds good in theory, but because you could lose if the car is totalled or stolen, and because of tax deductions, it doesn't make sense to go that route....unless you are a gambler and lose all your dp money.

BTW....my wife said, Isn't it great, we are saving $50 a week since gas is $2 a gallon.
I said great, my stocks are down about $25000.

you're in the wrong stocks......get out of the oil stocks.....

.

Just for the record, I am not that heavily into oil. The market is generally down....I just thought it was a cute line.

The last good good source that I looked at said oil will probably go down more, and it won't reach $100 a barrel for at least a decade.

I wonder what the people who bought hybrids and electric cars are thinking. Remember all the warnings that we were using up all of our natural resources and there wouldn't be enough to last for the next few years.

Nothing is as bad as it seems and nothing is ever as good as it seems. And, it seems everything eventually crashes and comes down to reality, whether it is gold, oil, or tulip bulbs.

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